Re: [WikiEN-l] Copyright of newly found image of Phineas Gage from 1850

[Jay Litwyn]

"Brian"  wrote in message 
news:9839a05c0907181130y31750611u1d6c29c9e3684...@mail.gmail.com...
>A daguerreotype of a well adjusted [[Phineas Gage]] holding the rod that
> impaled his frontal lobes was recently discovered. It will be published in
> The Journal of the History of the Neurosciences imminently. It was, in my
> opinion, correctly uploaded to Commons under the Public Domain. It is, 
> after
> all, an uncreative photograph of a daguerreotype made in the 1850s by an
> unknown photographer.
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Phineas_Gage.jpg
>
> That said, have a look at the copyright text of the image claimed by the
> gallery that took the photo.
>
> http://brightbytes.com/phineasgage/index.html
>
> **NOTE* We are not claiming copyright to the work of an anonymous 1850s
> photographer but to the photograph we made of this object in our 
> possession.
> Since you can't upload a daguerreotype to the internet and no one else 
> could
> possibly have photographed this object for over 30 years, the only
> photographs available are the ones we have made.*
>
> *For several years we have had an informal business supplying images in 
> our
> collection  to publishers,
> film, and television producers. We often grant permission for educational
> and non-profit usage.*
>
> *High resolution photographs without a watermark are available for
> reproduction. Contact us for information on usage fees.*
> *
> *My reading of this is that they claim copyright of the image and that 
> they
> often allow educational and non-profit institutions to use versions of the
> images that contain watermarks.

I am reading it like this: "We will provide higher quality without 
watermarks. If you want to spend the time or trouble procuring them for 
yourself and explaining why even copies on another medium are also in the 
public domain, then you will probably get away with it, but we will not make 
it easy for you to hide your source, and we might even raise legal 
difficulties for you, somewhere." (like here) In short, I would not worry 
about the watermarks, unless I was familiar with how uniform copyright law 
is in this world. Consider that we could hide millions of such images in the 
space of one glass container, so their costs in storage space for all these 
years is several orders of magnitude greater than ours. In short, I would 
not waste time hiding the courtesy. 




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Re: [WikiEN-l] Copyright of newly found image of Phineas Gage from 1850

[Carcharoth]

Daguerrotypes are quite interesting in terms of preservation and copying.

>From our article on them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daguerreotype

[That's one of the better 'start' articles I've seen, for those
discussing article assessment accuracies.]

"The daguerreotype is a negative image, but the mirrored surface of
the metal plate reflects the image and makes it appear positive in the
proper light. Thus, daguerreotype is a direct photographic process
without the capacity for duplication." (this is repeated later in the
article in different words: "lack of a negative image from which
multiple positive "prints" could be made")

"The image produced by this method is extremely fragile and
susceptible to damage when handled improperly. Practically all
daguerreotypes are protected from accidental damage by a glass-fronted
case."

"The best-preserved daguerreotypes dating from the nineteenth century
are sealed in robust glass cases evacuated of air and filled with a
chemically inert gas, typically nitrogen."

That would make slavish reproductions quite difficult.

There is a nice bit here as well, about patents versus 'free' invention:

"Instead of Daguerre obtaining a French patent, the French government
provided a pension for him[2]. In Britain, Miles Berry, acting on
Daguerre's behalf, obtained a patent for the daguerreotype process on
August 14, 1839. Almost simultaneously, on August 19, 1839, the French
government announced the invention as a gift "Free to the World.""

Quite ironic, really, considering how long the technology lasted
before being replaced by other methods (mainly the ambrotype in the
late 1850s, about 10 or so years later). The main reason, it seems,
being mercury poisoning.

"Unlike film and paper photography however, a properly sealed
daguerreotype can potentially last indefinitely."

In the copyright situation today, and with the advent of the internet,
what challenges face legislators comparing transient media with those
that can potentially "last indefinitely"?

Carcharoth

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Brian wrote:
> A daguerreotype of a well adjusted [[Phineas Gage]] holding the rod that
> impaled his frontal lobes was recently discovered. It will be published in
> The Journal of the History of the Neurosciences imminently. It was, in my
> opinion, correctly uploaded to Commons under the Public Domain. It is, after
> all, an uncreative photograph of a daguerreotype made in the 1850s by an
> unknown photographer.
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Phineas_Gage.jpg
>
> That said, have a look at the copyright text of the image claimed by the
> gallery that took the photo.
>
> http://brightbytes.com/phineasgage/index.html
>
> **NOTE* We are not claiming copyright to the work of an anonymous 1850s
> photographer but to the photograph we made of this object in our possession.
> Since you can't upload a daguerreotype to the internet and no one else could
> possibly have photographed this object for over 30 years, the only
> photographs available are the ones we have made.*
>
> *For several years we have had an informal business supplying images in our
> collection  to publishers,
> film, and television producers. We often grant permission for educational
> and non-profit usage.*
>
> *High resolution photographs without a watermark are available for
> reproduction. Contact us for information on usage fees.*
> *
> *My reading of this is that they claim copyright of the image and that they
> often allow educational and non-profit institutions to use versions of the
> images that contain watermarks.
> ___
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

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[WikiEN-l] Copyright of newly found image of Phineas Gage from 1850

[Brian]

A daguerreotype of a well adjusted [[Phineas Gage]] holding the rod that
impaled his frontal lobes was recently discovered. It will be published in
The Journal of the History of the Neurosciences imminently. It was, in my
opinion, correctly uploaded to Commons under the Public Domain. It is, after
all, an uncreative photograph of a daguerreotype made in the 1850s by an
unknown photographer.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Phineas_Gage.jpg

That said, have a look at the copyright text of the image claimed by the
gallery that took the photo.

http://brightbytes.com/phineasgage/index.html

**NOTE* We are not claiming copyright to the work of an anonymous 1850s
photographer but to the photograph we made of this object in our possession.
Since you can't upload a daguerreotype to the internet and no one else could
possibly have photographed this object for over 30 years, the only
photographs available are the ones we have made.*

*For several years we have had an informal business supplying images in our
collection  to publishers,
film, and television producers. We often grant permission for educational
and non-profit usage.*

*High resolution photographs without a watermark are available for
reproduction. Contact us for information on usage fees.*
*
*My reading of this is that they claim copyright of the image and that they
often allow educational and non-profit institutions to use versions of the
images that contain watermarks.
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