Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[Alvaro García]

It went to a period of decline because Steve Jobs was fired. Then ha  
came back at 1998 and they released the iMac and the iBook, and some  
years later, on 2001, they released the iPhone. They continued  
anouncing good things. More iPods, the MacBooks came, the migration to  
Intel, and then, on 2007, came the iPhone. Talk about decline.


--
Alvaro

On 14-01-2009, at 16:14, "The Cunctator"  wrote:

> Apple was an engine of innovation from about 1976 to 1991 with  
> overlapping
> breakthrough projects (1976-1983: Apple I/II) (1978-1985: Macintosh)
> (1986-1992: Powerbook).  It then entered a period of decline,  
> reaching a
> nadir in the mid-nineties.
>
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Alvaro García   
> wrote:
>
>> Apple!?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Alvaro
>>
>> On 14-01-2009, at 11:29, "The Cunctator"  wrote:
>>
>>> No, just profoundly sad that Wikipedia is in what seems to be an
>>> inexorable
>>> decline. But idea-based projects generally have about seven years of
>>> innovation before they lose steam (see SRI, Xerox PARC, GNU, Apple).
>>> Perhaps
>>> Wikipedia will enjoy a rebirth, but I expect its natural successor
>>> to emerge
>>> under a different umbrella. Fortunately, the important thing for
>>> posterity
>>> is that Wikipedia's core assets are under a free license.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 9:07 AM, White Cat
>>> wrote:
>>>
 You high or something?
 - White Cat

 On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:36 PM, The Cunctator  
 
 wrote:

> Long live deletionism!
>
> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke
> > wrote:
>
>> 2009/1/13 Carcharoth 
>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke <
 wikipe...@zog.org
>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
 Anyone any idea where I could find the original AfD? It seems  
 to
 have
 disappeared:

>>>
>>
>

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)&oldid=263769784
>>  
>> >  
>> >
 <
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_%28online_game%29&oldid=263769784
>
> <
>

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_%28online_game%29&oldid=263769784
>>

 The edit summary just says "oops".
>>>
>>> The deletion log helps in cases like this:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_(online_game
>>  
>> >  
>> >
 )<
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_%28online_game%29
>
> <
>

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_%28online_game%29
>>
>>>
>>> "OTRS Courtesy blank"
>>>
>>> What probably happened is that someone who was unhappy with some
>>> of
>>> the things said in the heat of the moment e-mailed the Wikipedia
>>> OTRS
>>> service and asked for a courtesy deletion.
>>
>>
>> The entire discussion needed to be deleted, apparently. The page
>> now
> reads
>> "The result was *delete*." with the rest of the deletion  
>> summary in
 html
>> comment.
>>
>> I'm officially weirded out. :)
>>
>> Michel
>> ___
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
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 ___
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>>> ___
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>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[White Cat]

I gather not being familiar with it is a good thing...
  - White Cat

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 8:54 PM, Ray Saintonge  wrote:

> White Cat wrote:
> > You high or something?
> >   - White Cat
> >
> I gather from this that you are not familiar with Cunc's curmudgeonly
> conscience. :-)
>
> Ec
> > On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:36 PM, The Cunctator 
> wrote
> >> Long live deletionism!
> >>
> >>
>
>
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[The Cunctator]

Apple was an engine of innovation from about 1976 to 1991 with overlapping
breakthrough projects (1976-1983: Apple I/II) (1978-1985: Macintosh)
(1986-1992: Powerbook).  It then entered a period of decline, reaching a
nadir in the mid-nineties.

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Alvaro García  wrote:

> Apple!?
>
>
> --
> Alvaro
>
> On 14-01-2009, at 11:29, "The Cunctator"  wrote:
>
> > No, just profoundly sad that Wikipedia is in what seems to be an
> > inexorable
> > decline. But idea-based projects generally have about seven years of
> > innovation before they lose steam (see SRI, Xerox PARC, GNU, Apple).
> > Perhaps
> > Wikipedia will enjoy a rebirth, but I expect its natural successor
> > to emerge
> > under a different umbrella. Fortunately, the important thing for
> > posterity
> > is that Wikipedia's core assets are under a free license.
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 9:07 AM, White Cat
> > wrote:
> >
> >> You high or something?
> >> - White Cat
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:36 PM, The Cunctator 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Long live deletionism!
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke
> >>>   wrote:
> >>>
>  2009/1/13 Carcharoth 
> 
> > On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke <
> >> wikipe...@zog.org
> 
> > wrote:
> >
> > 
> >
> >> Anyone any idea where I could find the original AfD? It seems to
> >> have
> >> disappeared:
> >>
> >
> 
> >>>
> >>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)&oldid=263769784
> >> <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_%28online_game%29&oldid=263769784
> >> >
> >>> <
> >>>
> >>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_%28online_game%29&oldid=263769784
> 
> >>
> >> The edit summary just says "oops".
> >
> > The deletion log helps in cases like this:
> >
> >
> >
> 
> >>>
> >>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_(online_game
> >> )<
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_%28online_game%29
> >> >
> >>> <
> >>>
> >>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_%28online_game%29
> 
> >
> > "OTRS Courtesy blank"
> >
> > What probably happened is that someone who was unhappy with some
> > of
> > the things said in the heat of the moment e-mailed the Wikipedia
> > OTRS
> > service and asked for a courtesy deletion.
> 
> 
>  The entire discussion needed to be deleted, apparently. The page
>  now
> >>> reads
>  "The result was *delete*." with the rest of the deletion summary in
> >> html
>  comment.
> 
>  I'm officially weirded out. :)
> 
>  Michel
>  ___
>  WikiEN-l mailing list
>  WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>  To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>  https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> 
> >>> ___
> >>> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >>> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>>
> >> ___
> >> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[Ray Saintonge]

White Cat wrote:
> You high or something?
>   - White Cat
>   
I gather from this that you are not familiar with Cunc's curmudgeonly 
conscience. :-)

Ec
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:36 PM, The Cunctator  wrote
>> Long live deletionism!
>>
>> 


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[Alvaro García]

Apple!?


--
Alvaro

On 14-01-2009, at 11:29, "The Cunctator"  wrote:

> No, just profoundly sad that Wikipedia is in what seems to be an  
> inexorable
> decline. But idea-based projects generally have about seven years of
> innovation before they lose steam (see SRI, Xerox PARC, GNU, Apple).  
> Perhaps
> Wikipedia will enjoy a rebirth, but I expect its natural successor  
> to emerge
> under a different umbrella. Fortunately, the important thing for  
> posterity
> is that Wikipedia's core assets are under a free license.
>
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 9:07 AM, White Cat
> wrote:
>
>> You high or something?
>> - White Cat
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:36 PM, The Cunctator 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Long live deletionism!
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke  
>>> >>> wrote:
>>>
 2009/1/13 Carcharoth 

> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke <
>> wikipe...@zog.org

> wrote:
>
> 
>
>> Anyone any idea where I could find the original AfD? It seems to
>> have
>> disappeared:
>>
>

>>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)&oldid=263769784
>>  
>> >  
>> >
>>> <
>>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_%28online_game%29&oldid=263769784

>>
>> The edit summary just says "oops".
>
> The deletion log helps in cases like this:
>
>
>

>>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_(online_game
>>  
>> )>  
>> >
>>> <
>>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_%28online_game%29

>
> "OTRS Courtesy blank"
>
> What probably happened is that someone who was unhappy with some  
> of
> the things said in the heat of the moment e-mailed the Wikipedia  
> OTRS
> service and asked for a courtesy deletion.


 The entire discussion needed to be deleted, apparently. The page  
 now
>>> reads
 "The result was *delete*." with the rest of the deletion summary in
>> html
 comment.

 I'm officially weirded out. :)

 Michel
 ___
 WikiEN-l mailing list
 WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

>>> ___
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>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>>
>> ___
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>>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[Marc Riddell]

on 1/14/09 10:49 AM, White Cat at wikipedia.kawaii.n...@gmail.com wrote:

> Unfortunately neither your nor my fancy words will resolve the dispute.

> - White Cat

Very true, WC. That would take re-thinking the process. H.

Marc

> 
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:37 PM, Marc Riddell
> wrote:
> 
>> on 1/14/09 9:38 AM, White Cat at wikipedia.kawaii.n...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>>> The Phoenix will surely rise again. How soon? Time will tell.
>>> - White_Cat
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:29 PM, The Cunctator 
>> wrote:
>>> 
 No, just profoundly sad that Wikipedia is in what seems to be an
>> inexorable
 decline. But idea-based projects generally have about seven years of
 innovation before they lose steam (see SRI, Xerox PARC, GNU, Apple).
 Perhaps
 Wikipedia will enjoy a rebirth, but I expect its natural successor to
 emerge
 under a different umbrella. Fortunately, the important thing for
>> posterity
 is that Wikipedia's core assets are under a free license.
>> 
>> There is light at the end of the tunnel. Right now it may take an
>> observatory telescope to detect it but it's there. But that light will only
>> remain there provided we all keep questioning. The important things are,
>> take nothing as "gospel", take nothing as a "given". We must all keep
>> questioning.
>> 
>> Marc
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
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>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>> 
> ___
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[White Cat]

Unfortunately neither your nor my fancy words will resolve the dispute.
   - White Cat

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:37 PM, Marc Riddell wrote:

> on 1/14/09 9:38 AM, White Cat at wikipedia.kawaii.n...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > The Phoenix will surely rise again. How soon? Time will tell.
> > - White_Cat
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:29 PM, The Cunctator 
> wrote:
> >
> >> No, just profoundly sad that Wikipedia is in what seems to be an
> inexorable
> >> decline. But idea-based projects generally have about seven years of
> >> innovation before they lose steam (see SRI, Xerox PARC, GNU, Apple).
> >> Perhaps
> >> Wikipedia will enjoy a rebirth, but I expect its natural successor to
> >> emerge
> >> under a different umbrella. Fortunately, the important thing for
> posterity
> >> is that Wikipedia's core assets are under a free license.
>
> There is light at the end of the tunnel. Right now it may take an
> observatory telescope to detect it but it's there. But that light will only
> remain there provided we all keep questioning. The important things are,
> take nothing as "gospel", take nothing as a "given". We must all keep
> questioning.
>
> Marc
>
>
>
> ___
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[Marc Riddell]

on 1/14/09 9:38 AM, White Cat at wikipedia.kawaii.n...@gmail.com wrote:

> The Phoenix will surely rise again. How soon? Time will tell.
> - White_Cat
> 
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:29 PM, The Cunctator  wrote:
> 
>> No, just profoundly sad that Wikipedia is in what seems to be an inexorable
>> decline. But idea-based projects generally have about seven years of
>> innovation before they lose steam (see SRI, Xerox PARC, GNU, Apple).
>> Perhaps
>> Wikipedia will enjoy a rebirth, but I expect its natural successor to
>> emerge
>> under a different umbrella. Fortunately, the important thing for posterity
>> is that Wikipedia's core assets are under a free license.

There is light at the end of the tunnel. Right now it may take an
observatory telescope to detect it but it's there. But that light will only
remain there provided we all keep questioning. The important things are,
take nothing as "gospel", take nothing as a "given". We must all keep
questioning.

Marc



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[White Cat]

The Phoenix will surely rise again. How soon? Time will tell.
  - White_Cat

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:29 PM, The Cunctator  wrote:

> No, just profoundly sad that Wikipedia is in what seems to be an inexorable
> decline. But idea-based projects generally have about seven years of
> innovation before they lose steam (see SRI, Xerox PARC, GNU, Apple).
> Perhaps
> Wikipedia will enjoy a rebirth, but I expect its natural successor to
> emerge
> under a different umbrella. Fortunately, the important thing for posterity
> is that Wikipedia's core assets are under a free license.
>
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 9:07 AM, White Cat
> wrote:
>
> > You high or something?
> >  - White Cat
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:36 PM, The Cunctator 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Long live deletionism!
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke  > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > 2009/1/13 Carcharoth 
> > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke <
> > wikipe...@zog.org
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > > > Anyone any idea where I could find the original AfD? It seems to
> > have
> > > > > > disappeared:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)&oldid=263769784
> <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_%28online_game%29&oldid=263769784
> >
> > > <
> > >
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_%28online_game%29&oldid=263769784
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The edit summary just says "oops".
> > > > >
> > > > > The deletion log helps in cases like this:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_(online_game)
> <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_%28online_game%29
> >
> > > <
> > >
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_%28online_game%29
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "OTRS Courtesy blank"
> > > > >
> > > > > What probably happened is that someone who was unhappy with some of
> > > > > the things said in the heat of the moment e-mailed the Wikipedia
> OTRS
> > > > > service and asked for a courtesy deletion.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  The entire discussion needed to be deleted, apparently. The page now
> > > reads
> > > > "The result was *delete*." with the rest of the deletion summary in
> > html
> > > > comment.
> > > >
> > > > I'm officially weirded out. :)
> > > >
> > > > Michel
> > > > ___
> > > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > > >
> > > ___
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> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[The Cunctator]

No, just profoundly sad that Wikipedia is in what seems to be an inexorable
decline. But idea-based projects generally have about seven years of
innovation before they lose steam (see SRI, Xerox PARC, GNU, Apple). Perhaps
Wikipedia will enjoy a rebirth, but I expect its natural successor to emerge
under a different umbrella. Fortunately, the important thing for posterity
is that Wikipedia's core assets are under a free license.

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 9:07 AM, White Cat
wrote:

> You high or something?
>  - White Cat
>
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:36 PM, The Cunctator 
> wrote:
>
> > Long live deletionism!
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke  > >wrote:
> >
> > > 2009/1/13 Carcharoth 
> > >
> > > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke <
> wikipe...@zog.org
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > > Anyone any idea where I could find the original AfD? It seems to
> have
> > > > > disappeared:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)&oldid=263769784
> > <
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_%28online_game%29&oldid=263769784
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The edit summary just says "oops".
> > > >
> > > > The deletion log helps in cases like this:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_(online_game)
> > <
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_%28online_game%29
> > >
> > > >
> > > > "OTRS Courtesy blank"
> > > >
> > > > What probably happened is that someone who was unhappy with some of
> > > > the things said in the heat of the moment e-mailed the Wikipedia OTRS
> > > > service and asked for a courtesy deletion.
> > >
> > >
> > >  The entire discussion needed to be deleted, apparently. The page now
> > reads
> > > "The result was *delete*." with the rest of the deletion summary in
> html
> > > comment.
> > >
> > > I'm officially weirded out. :)
> > >
> > > Michel
> > > ___
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[White Cat]

You high or something?
  - White Cat

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:36 PM, The Cunctator  wrote:

> Long live deletionism!
>
> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke  >wrote:
>
> > 2009/1/13 Carcharoth 
> >
> > > On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke  >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > > Anyone any idea where I could find the original AfD? It seems to have
> > > > disappeared:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)&oldid=263769784
> <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_%28online_game%29&oldid=263769784
> >
> > > >
> > > > The edit summary just says "oops".
> > >
> > > The deletion log helps in cases like this:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_(online_game)
> <
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_%28online_game%29
> >
> > >
> > > "OTRS Courtesy blank"
> > >
> > > What probably happened is that someone who was unhappy with some of
> > > the things said in the heat of the moment e-mailed the Wikipedia OTRS
> > > service and asked for a courtesy deletion.
> >
> >
> >  The entire discussion needed to be deleted, apparently. The page now
> reads
> > "The result was *delete*." with the rest of the deletion summary in html
> > comment.
> >
> > I'm officially weirded out. :)
> >
> > Michel
> > ___
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[The Cunctator]

Long live deletionism!

On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke wrote:

> 2009/1/13 Carcharoth 
>
> > On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke 
> > wrote:
> >
> > 
> >
> > > Anyone any idea where I could find the original AfD? It seems to have
> > > disappeared:
> > >
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)&oldid=263769784
> > >
> > > The edit summary just says "oops".
> >
> > The deletion log helps in cases like this:
> >
> >
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_(online_game)
> >
> > "OTRS Courtesy blank"
> >
> > What probably happened is that someone who was unhappy with some of
> > the things said in the heat of the moment e-mailed the Wikipedia OTRS
> > service and asked for a courtesy deletion.
>
>
>  The entire discussion needed to be deleted, apparently. The page now reads
> "The result was *delete*." with the rest of the deletion summary in html
> comment.
>
> I'm officially weirded out. :)
>
> Michel
> ___
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/1/13 Carcharoth 

> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke 
> wrote:
>
> 
>
> > Anyone any idea where I could find the original AfD? It seems to have
> > disappeared:
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)&oldid=263769784
> >
> > The edit summary just says "oops".
>
> The deletion log helps in cases like this:
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_(online_game)
>
> "OTRS Courtesy blank"
>
> What probably happened is that someone who was unhappy with some of
> the things said in the heat of the moment e-mailed the Wikipedia OTRS
> service and asked for a courtesy deletion.


 The entire discussion needed to be deleted, apparently. The page now reads
"The result was *delete*." with the rest of the deletion summary in html
comment.

I'm officially weirded out. :)

Michel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[Wilhelm Schnotz]

The admin should at least give you a ticket number so that his action
can be reviewed by other otrs members.

On 1/13/09, Carcharoth  wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke 
> wrote:
>
> 
>
>> Anyone any idea where I could find the original AfD? It seems to have
>> disappeared:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)&oldid=263769784
>>
>> The edit summary just says "oops".
>
> The deletion log helps in cases like this:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_(online_game)
>
> "OTRS Courtesy blank"
>
> What probably happened is that someone who was unhappy with some of
> the things said in the heat of the moment e-mailed the Wikipedia OTRS
> service and asked for a courtesy deletion. Not quite ideal in some
> ways, as this is a deletion, not a blanking (as the summary says), and
> these two actions (deletion and blanking) are very different, but you
> are best off asking the admin involved what happened there, though he
> may be unable to tell you much more.
>
> See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OTRS
>
> Carcharoth
>
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[Carcharoth]

On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke  wrote:



> Anyone any idea where I could find the original AfD? It seems to have
> disappeared:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)&oldid=263769784
>
> The edit summary just says "oops".

The deletion log helps in cases like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_(online_game)

"OTRS Courtesy blank"

What probably happened is that someone who was unhappy with some of
the things said in the heat of the moment e-mailed the Wikipedia OTRS
service and asked for a courtesy deletion. Not quite ideal in some
ways, as this is a deletion, not a blanking (as the summary says), and
these two actions (deletion and blanking) are very different, but you
are best off asking the admin involved what happened there, though he
may be unable to tell you much more.

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OTRS

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[Steve Summit]

Philip Sandifer wrote:
> On Jan 11, 2009, at 8:56 PM, David Gerard wrote:
>> ...If they don't believe a given item can have reliable sources -
>> the sort of rabid nutters who brag about deletion tallies on their
> user pages - then they just won't accept anything.
>
> This has been one of the most toxic things I've seen in a long time,  
> and it's a real problem. In the Threshold debate, I have seen...

I am an avid inclusionist; I am no deletionist.
I am a fan of MUDs, having played and written them.
I am not a rabid nutter, nor an apologist for same.
But I just took a look at [[Threshold (online game)]]
for the first time, and y'know, it's marginal.

I bring this up *not* to suggest that the article deserves
deletion.  But a reasonable person could reasonably conclude,
based on reasonably-written notability and sourcing policies,
that this article did not quite make the cut.  If it's "obviously"
"reasonable" for this article to be kept, I suspect our notability
and sourcing policies would need a significant amount of relaxing
in order to make that conclusion unambiguously clear.

Currently (and aside from any ministrations by rabid nutters),
our notability and sourcing policies are rather carefully
designed to exclude cruft which obviously, reasonably does
not belong in the encyclopedia.  If they then "wrongly" suggest
deleting this article, what we have is another nice example that
what's obvious and reasonable to one person is not to another.
And Wikipedia is long since big enough for these differences
of opinion to occur.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/1/12 Philip Sandifer 

>
> On Jan 11, 2009, at 8:56 PM, David Gerard wrote:
>
> > Well, not really. If they don't believe a given item can have reliable
> > sources - the sort of rabid nutters who brag about deletion tallies on
> > their user pages - then they just won't accept anything. I speak here
> > from observation of the phenomenon.
>
> This has been one of the most toxic things I've seen in a long time,
> and it's a real problem. In the Threshold debate, I have seen, in all
> sincerity, the following.
>
> 1: The dismissal of a print source as "unverified"
> 2: The rejection of a source because of the possibility (with no
> evidence) that its author played the game in question.
> 3: The rejection of a third source because it allowed games to be
> submitted for review (even though it didn't review all games submitted)
>
> And, most recently, the article has been the subject of a second AfD
> where the nominator flatly lies about the sourcing in the article,
> asserting that it is sourced to things it isn't, and ignoring sources
> it does have. That particular glory can be found here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)_(2nd_nomination)
>

Anyone any idea where I could find the original AfD? It seems to have
disappeared:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)&oldid=263769784

The edit summary just says "oops".

Michel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[White Cat]

Please see the "To boldly delete what no one had deleted before" thread.
  - White Cat

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Philip Sandifer wrote:

>
> On Jan 11, 2009, at 8:56 PM, David Gerard wrote:
>
> > Well, not really. If they don't believe a given item can have reliable
> > sources - the sort of rabid nutters who brag about deletion tallies on
> > their user pages - then they just won't accept anything. I speak here
> > from observation of the phenomenon.
>
> This has been one of the most toxic things I've seen in a long time,
> and it's a real problem. In the Threshold debate, I have seen, in all
> sincerity, the following.
>
> 1: The dismissal of a print source as "unverified"
> 2: The rejection of a source because of the possibility (with no
> evidence) that its author played the game in question.
> 3: The rejection of a third source because it allowed games to be
> submitted for review (even though it didn't review all games submitted)
>
> And, most recently, the article has been the subject of a second AfD
> where the nominator flatly lies about the sourcing in the article,
> asserting that it is sourced to things it isn't, and ignoring sources
> it does have. That particular glory can be found here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)_(2nd_nomination)
>
> Meanwhile, an actually promising proposal for fiction notability that
> had multiple parties, both inclusionist and deletionist, onboard is
> now being derailed by two or three people who are holding the "No
> retreat, no surrender, no loosening of standards for fiction" line
> with no willingness to compromise, openly saying they'd rather treat
> each article as a battleground than loosen standards to something that
> approximates the practical consensus on fiction. One person compared
> the keeping of fiction articles by the community to Jim Crow laws. In
> all seriousness.
>
> I have spoken of the toxicity of deletionists, but this is beyond
> toxicicity. This is an active cancer - and one that the arbcom has,
> historically, been too chicken to take on.
>
> Just how much commitment to removing content for the sake of removing
> content needs to be demonstrated before we can say that it violates
> policy and just block the idiots?
>
> -Phil
>
> ___
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[Carcharoth]

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Ken Arromdee  wrote:
> rcasm>
> That's a blog, so it doesn't count.
> 
>
> While we've discussed this, there are some new points, and I think the
> canvassing problem is one of the worst.  It ends up meaning that the people
> who are affected by a change never get to participate in the decision,
> because it's impossible to inform them witbhout "canvassing" or "meatpuppets".

It's also a newbie problem. Some of the accounts in question are
improving, on a steep learning curve. Others never came back or show
little activity or interest in the rest of Wikipedia (normal behaviour
for most new accounta). Such incidents also show the worst of how
Wikipedia can treat newcomers.

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[Ken Arromdee]

rcasm>
That's a blog, so it doesn't count.


While we've discussed this, there are some new points, and I think the
canvassing problem is one of the worst.  It ends up meaning that the people
who are affected by a change never get to participate in the decision,
because it's impossible to inform them witbhout "canvassing" or "meatpuppets".



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[Fred Bauder]

 Wikipedia's War on Gaming History and Threshold RPG
Article by Michael Hartman (4,659 pts )
Published on Jan 10, 2009
Wikipedia is currently dominated by a powerful deletionist movement. MUDs
and Gaming History are frequent targets, and Threshold RPG recently found
itself in the Wikipedian crosshairs. Wikipedia has lost its way, and
obscure, interesting content is constantly in jeopardy of disappearing.
Tags: Wikipedia, rpg, threshold, mmo, mud

http://www.brighthub.com/computing/windows-platform/articles/22166.aspx


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[Alvaro García]

See? Even if I put the formalsource for my Waters interview, it would  
be put as "unverifiable"


--
Alvaro

On 12-01-2009, at 12:19, Philip Sandifer  wrote:

>
> On Jan 11, 2009, at 8:56 PM, David Gerard wrote:
>
>> Well, not really. If they don't believe a given item can have  
>> reliable
>> sources - the sort of rabid nutters who brag about deletion tallies  
>> on
>> their user pages - then they just won't accept anything. I speak here
>> from observation of the phenomenon.
>
> This has been one of the most toxic things I've seen in a long time,
> and it's a real problem. In the Threshold debate, I have seen, in all
> sincerity, the following.
>
> 1: The dismissal of a print source as "unverified"
> 2: The rejection of a source because of the possibility (with no
> evidence) that its author played the game in question.
> 3: The rejection of a third source because it allowed games to be
> submitted for review (even though it didn't review all games  
> submitted)
>
> And, most recently, the article has been the subject of a second AfD
> where the nominator flatly lies about the sourcing in the article,
> asserting that it is sourced to things it isn't, and ignoring sources
> it does have. That particular glory can be found here: 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)_(2nd_nomination
>  
> )
>
> Meanwhile, an actually promising proposal for fiction notability that
> had multiple parties, both inclusionist and deletionist, onboard is
> now being derailed by two or three people who are holding the "No
> retreat, no surrender, no loosening of standards for fiction" line
> with no willingness to compromise, openly saying they'd rather treat
> each article as a battleground than loosen standards to something that
> approximates the practical consensus on fiction. One person compared
> the keeping of fiction articles by the community to Jim Crow laws. In
> all seriousness.
>
> I have spoken of the toxicity of deletionists, but this is beyond
> toxicicity. This is an active cancer - and one that the arbcom has,
> historically, been too chicken to take on.
>
> Just how much commitment to removing content for the sake of removing
> content needs to be demonstrated before we can say that it violates
> policy and just block the idiots?
>
> -Phil
>
> ___
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> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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[WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[Philip Sandifer]

On Jan 11, 2009, at 8:56 PM, David Gerard wrote:

> Well, not really. If they don't believe a given item can have reliable
> sources - the sort of rabid nutters who brag about deletion tallies on
> their user pages - then they just won't accept anything. I speak here
> from observation of the phenomenon.

This has been one of the most toxic things I've seen in a long time,  
and it's a real problem. In the Threshold debate, I have seen, in all  
sincerity, the following.

1: The dismissal of a print source as "unverified"
2: The rejection of a source because of the possibility (with no  
evidence) that its author played the game in question.
3: The rejection of a third source because it allowed games to be  
submitted for review (even though it didn't review all games submitted)

And, most recently, the article has been the subject of a second AfD  
where the nominator flatly lies about the sourcing in the article,  
asserting that it is sourced to things it isn't, and ignoring sources  
it does have. That particular glory can be found here: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)_(2nd_nomination)

Meanwhile, an actually promising proposal for fiction notability that  
had multiple parties, both inclusionist and deletionist, onboard is  
now being derailed by two or three people who are holding the "No  
retreat, no surrender, no loosening of standards for fiction" line  
with no willingness to compromise, openly saying they'd rather treat  
each article as a battleground than loosen standards to something that  
approximates the practical consensus on fiction. One person compared  
the keeping of fiction articles by the community to Jim Crow laws. In  
all seriousness.

I have spoken of the toxicity of deletionists, but this is beyond  
toxicicity. This is an active cancer - and one that the arbcom has,  
historically, been too chicken to take on.

Just how much commitment to removing content for the sake of removing  
content needs to be demonstrated before we can say that it violates  
policy and just block the idiots?

-Phil

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