Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-18 Thread Jay Litwyn
News is the first rough draft of History, which is probably why wikipedia is 
not supposed to be news. 




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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-15 Thread Fayssal F.
It's been know since the 2005 London bombings attacks that Wikipedia is good
when it comes to evolving stories because the Wikipedia article will always
be the most complete and concentrated article about a developing event. It
helps journalists as well. The google link you provide below refer to the
2009 Iranian presidential election and Air France Flight 447 exclusively. I
don't know if google are doing it manually but I appreciate the idea.

Fayssal F.


 Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 15:33:53 -0400
 From: Sage Ross ragesoss+wikipe...@gmail.comragesoss%2bwikipe...@gmail.com
 
 Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source
 To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Message-ID:
40c6a93a0906141233k11ab72c0i4741754f2a17d...@mail.gmail.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

 On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Sage 
 Rossragesoss+wikipe...@gmail.comragesoss%2bwikipe...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 
  Inclusion of Wikipedia articles in Google News appears to be based on
  a) having been created recently, and b) having as its title a term
  that is part of the core topic of a collection of articles that Google
  News determines to be related.
 

 Strike that.  Creation date doesn't seem to figure in.  [[Murder of
 Meredith Kercher]] was created quite a while ago, but is linked from
 Google News results about the recent related developments.

 -Sage



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-15 Thread David Gerard
2009/6/15 Fayssal F. szv...@gmail.com:

 It's been know since the 2005 London bombings attacks that Wikipedia is good
 when it comes to evolving stories because the Wikipedia article will always
 be the most complete and concentrated article about a developing event.


I think our first really famous success in this regard was [[2004
Indian Ocean earthquake
earthquake]]. We even had the QuakeAid scammer spamming the page!


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-15 Thread Carcharoth
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 2:08 PM, David Gerarddger...@gmail.com wrote:
 2009/6/15 Fayssal F. szv...@gmail.com:

 It's been know since the 2005 London bombings attacks that Wikipedia is good
 when it comes to evolving stories because the Wikipedia article will always
 be the most complete and concentrated article about a developing event.

 I think our first really famous success in this regard was [[2004
 Indian Ocean earthquake earthquake]]. We even had the QuakeAid scammer
 spamming the page!

me, with my mouth half-open, glares half-annoyedly at David

I was about to say... :-)

I always like to say that it was the articles on these two incidents
(the 2004 tsunami and 2005 London bombings) that got me interested in
editing Wikipedia. But then people start to look bored and talk about
other things.

And then I ask what sparked other people's interests in Wikipedia, and
a really long thread results.

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-14 Thread Andrew Turvey
Just seen my first Wikinews link from Google news. Uploaded it to: 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24667...@n04/3626171622/ 

(sorry for the poor quality) 

I also saw a google news link from the main World news linking to an article 
I'd created less than 24 hours previously - Harith al-Obeidi. Makes you wonder 
- what kind of criteria are they using? I'm extremely flattered, of course, but 
I wonder if they do a manual look through the article before deciding whether 
to link. 

Andrew 

- Joe Anderson computer...@gmail.com wrote: 
 From: Joe Anderson computer...@gmail.com 
 To: wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
 Sent: Monday, 8 June, 2009 18:42:59 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal 
 Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source 
 
 On 2009-06-08 17:47:10 +0100, Andrew Turvey 
 andrewrtur...@googlemail.com said: 
 
  
  - Joe Anderson computer...@gmail.com wrote: 
  From: Joe Anderson computer...@gmail.com 
  To: wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
  Sent: Monday, 8 June, 2009 17:18:29 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, 
  Portugal 
  Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source 
  
  On 2009-06-07 08:48:26 +0100, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com said: 
  
  http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiropractic/3601011581/ 
  
  
  Could someone speak to Google? 
  
  Surely isn't this entering Wikinews' territory somewhat? 
  
  Why? The more Wikimedia content is made available to others the better, 
  surely? This is a great endorsement of our material. 
  
  If anyone complained, all they'd do is take Wikipedia off their list. 
  They wouldn't necessarily add Wikinews. 
  
  Andrew 
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 Wikinews is carried by Google, fyi. So it may be confusing for them to 
 see two WMF links. 
 
 
 
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-14 Thread Sage Ross
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Andrew
Turveyandrewrtur...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Just seen my first Wikinews link from Google news. Uploaded it to:

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/24667...@n04/3626171622/


Wikinews has been included in Google News listings for a while now,
since shortly after Stable Revisions went into operation.

 I also saw a google news link from the main World news linking to an 
 article I'd created less than 24 hours previously - Harith al-Obeidi. Makes 
 you wonder - what kind of criteria are they using? I'm extremely flattered, 
 of course, but I wonder if they do a manual look through the article before 
 deciding whether to link.

Inclusion of Wikipedia articles in Google News appears to be based on
a) having been created recently, and b) having as its title a term
that is part of the core topic of a collection of articles that Google
News determines to be related.

Also, it looks like Wikipedia links have been rolled out to more
(all?) Google users.  A few days ago, I wasn't getting the Wikipedia
link yet; now I am.  Does anyone NOT get links to Wikipedia articles
now? http://www.google.com/news?pz=1topic=wict=ln

-Sage (User:Ragesoss)

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-14 Thread Sage Ross
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Sage Rossragesoss+wikipe...@gmail.com wrote:


 Inclusion of Wikipedia articles in Google News appears to be based on
 a) having been created recently, and b) having as its title a term
 that is part of the core topic of a collection of articles that Google
 News determines to be related.


Strike that.  Creation date doesn't seem to figure in.  [[Murder of
Meredith Kercher]] was created quite a while ago, but is linked from
Google News results about the recent related developments.

-Sage

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-12 Thread David Gerard
2009/6/12 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com:

 Though maybe it depends whether new events have occurred, or whether
 new information has simply come to light. You could definitely make a
 case for having a few, big, detailed articles on high profile court
 cases, rather than a string of tidbits.


The Guardian and (I think) the NYT do this through topic pages, giving
all the articles on a large and complicated story on one page in date
order. Very nice.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-11 Thread Thomas Dalton
2009/6/11 Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com:
 The other problem is that some news sources
 (can't remember what the BBC do) only give the latest update date
 and time.

Yep, the BBC do exactly that. Very annoying indeed!

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-11 Thread Steve Bennett
On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 6:43 PM, genigeni...@gmail.com wrote:
 Unfortunate but unsurprising. Not that long ago Google was telling
 traditional media that they should construct their articles in a more
 wikipedia like manner (ie continuously update a single article per
 event rather than creating a string of new articles).

Sometimes they do. During a recent earthquake, we all watched as the
various news sites started with single sentence articles There has
been another earthquake and rapidly expanded them to several
paragraphs, one paper relying on twitter trawling to fill the space.
But at a certain point, the article itself (imho) does have to stand
alone as a description of a point in time, and be superseded by other
articles as events change.

Though maybe it depends whether new events have occurred, or whether
new information has simply come to light. You could definitely make a
case for having a few, big, detailed articles on high profile court
cases, rather than a string of tidbits.

Steve

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-09 Thread Sage Ross
Nieman Journalism Lab has some more about what's going on, including
details direct from Google:
http://www.niemanlab.org/2009/06/google-news-experimenting-with-links-to-wikipedia-on-its-homepage/

“Currently, we’re showing a small number of users links to Wikipedia
topic pages that serve as a reference on current events,” as an
experiment.

The post also does a nice job of explaining why Wikipedia (and not
something like Wikinews, which is striving to do the same sorts of
datelined stories as traditional newspapers) is what Google wants to
promote.

-Sage (User:Rageoss)

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-08 Thread AGK

 Surely isn't this entering Wikinews' territory somewhat?


It may be, yes, but I doubt most organisations outside of the Wiki bubble
have heard of Wikinews—Google included—or are at least are aware that it is
a distinct project from Wikipedia. (The similarities between the enwiki Main
Page's In The News section and Wikinews doesn't help matters; cf., recent
WikiEN-l thread on the two.)

AGK
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-08 Thread Andrew Turvey

- Joe Anderson computer...@gmail.com wrote: 
 From: Joe Anderson computer...@gmail.com 
 To: wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
 Sent: Monday, 8 June, 2009 17:18:29 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal 
 Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source 
 
 On 2009-06-07 08:48:26 +0100, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com said: 
 
  http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiropractic/3601011581/ 
  
 
 Could someone speak to Google? 
 
 Surely isn't this entering Wikinews' territory somewhat? 

Why? The more Wikimedia content is made available to others the better, surely? 
This is a great endorsement of our material. 

If anyone complained, all they'd do is take Wikipedia off their list. They 
wouldn't necessarily add Wikinews. 

Andrew 
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-08 Thread Brian
I can't imagine why they would add Wikinews as a source - it has no
authority, whereas Wikipedia does.

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Andrew Turvey andrewrtur...@googlemail.com
 wrote:


 - Joe Anderson computer...@gmail.com wrote:
  From: Joe Anderson computer...@gmail.com
  To: wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org
  Sent: Monday, 8 June, 2009 17:18:29 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland,
 Portugal
  Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source
 
  On 2009-06-07 08:48:26 +0100, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com said:
 
   http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiropractic/3601011581/
  
 
  Could someone speak to Google?
 
  Surely isn't this entering Wikinews' territory somewhat?

 Why? The more Wikimedia content is made available to others the better,
 surely? This is a great endorsement of our material.

 If anyone complained, all they'd do is take Wikipedia off their list. They
 wouldn't necessarily add Wikinews.

 Andrew
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-08 Thread Sam Korn



On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Andrew Turveyandrewrtur...@googlemail.com 
wrote:


- Joe Anderson computer...@gmail.com wrote:

From: Joe Anderson computer...@gmail.com
To: wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Sent: Monday, 8 June, 2009 17:18:29 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

On 2009-06-07 08:48:26 +0100, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com said:

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiropractic/3601011581/


Could someone speak to Google?

Surely isn't this entering Wikinews' territory somewhat?


Why? The more Wikimedia content is made available to others the better, surely? 
This is a great endorsement of our material.

If anyone complained, all they'd do is take Wikipedia off their list. They 
wouldn't necessarily add Wikinews.

Andrew
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--
Sam
PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-08 Thread Joe Anderson
On 2009-06-08 17:47:10 +0100, Andrew Turvey 
andrewrtur...@googlemail.com said:

 
 - Joe Anderson computer...@gmail.com wrote:
 From: Joe Anderson computer...@gmail.com
 To: wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 Sent: Monday, 8 June, 2009 17:18:29 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal
 Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source
 
 On 2009-06-07 08:48:26 +0100, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com said:
 
 http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiropractic/3601011581/
 
 
 Could someone speak to Google?
 
 Surely isn't this entering Wikinews' territory somewhat?
 
 Why? The more Wikimedia content is made available to others the better, 
 surely? This is a great endorsement of our material.
 
 If anyone complained, all they'd do is take Wikipedia off their list. 
 They wouldn't necessarily add Wikinews.
 
 Andrew
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Wikinews is carried by Google, fyi. So it may be confusing for them to 
see two WMF links.



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-08 Thread Ray Saintonge
Thomas Dalton wrote:
 2009/6/8 Joe Anderson computer...@gmail.com:
   
 Could someone speak to Google?

 Surely isn't this entering Wikinews' territory somewhat?
 
 Sure it is, but that's not Google's problem, it's ours. Google will
 link to wherever the best article on news topics are. At the moment,
 that is very often Wikipedia, not Wikinews. I would like to encourage
 people to go to Wikinews when they want to write about current affairs
 and only create a Wikipedia article after the event is over, but I
 don't think there is anything approaching a consensus for that.

   
True enough. Wikinews is inevitably subject to Darwinistic 
considerations.  Unless it produces material that attracts readership it 
will just be ignored. 

Ec

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-08 Thread Fred Bauder

 I can't imagine why they would add Wikinews as a source - it has
 no authority, whereas Wikipedia does.


 What type of authority, Brian? Reliability? Based on original reporting?

 AGK

Actually, no, based on use of reliable sources.

Fred



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-08 Thread Brian
PageRank authority. People-actually-read-it authority. People believe what
they read there authority.

A de facto authority.

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 12:51 PM, AGK wiki...@googlemail.com wrote:

 
  I can't imagine why they would add Wikinews as a source - it has
  no authority, whereas Wikipedia does.


 What type of authority, Brian? Reliability? Based on original reporting?

 AGK
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[WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-07 Thread David Gerard
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiropractic/3601011581/


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-07 Thread geni
2009/6/7 David Gerard dger...@gmail.com:
 http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiropractic/3601011581/


 - d.

Unfortunate but unsurprising. Not that long ago Google was telling
traditional media that they should construct their articles in a more
wikipedia like manner (ie continuously update a single article per
event rather than creating a string of new articles).



-- 
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-07 Thread Mathias Schindler
On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 4:43 AM, genigeni...@gmail.com wrote:
 2009/6/7 David Gerard dger...@gmail.com:
 http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiropractic/3601011581/


 - d.

 Unfortunate but unsurprising.

Fortunate and surprising, actually. Wikipedia articles actually serve
the purpose of an news source (with the restriction on original
reporting, yadda yadda), so the inclusion somehoe makes sense.
Especially considering that infoboxes are common in newspapers, too.
Our infobox just happens to be 50.000 words long on average :)

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-07 Thread Fred Bauder
 http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiropractic/3601011581/


 - d.


Wikipedia only aggregates news, but as those who read many newspapers,
and watch several channels of TV know, that is what all news sources do;
they develop a few stories independently, but the bulk of their coverage
is aggregated. Wikipedia aggregates news fairly well, better than some
mainstream news sources such as CBS, ABC, or CNN.

Fred



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-07 Thread AGK

 Unfortunate but unsurprising. Not that long ago Google was
 telling traditional media that they should construct their articles in a
 more wikipedia like manner (ie continuously update a single article
 per event rather than creating a string of new articles).


Unsurprising indeed. I get the impression, from projects such as Knol, that
Google is something of an admirer of the Wikipedia model.

AGK
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-07 Thread Charles Matthews
Thomas Dalton wrote:
 2009/6/7 Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net:
   
 Unfortunate but unsurprising. Not that long ago Google was telling
 traditional media that they should construct their articles in a more
 wikipedia like manner (ie continuously update a single article per
 event rather than creating a string of new articles).

 --
 geni

   
 The New York Times does that with breaking news. It is a better practice
 even if it is only a few reporters and editors that are involved.
 

 The BBC News website does too. I'm not a great fan of that approach,
 it makes it hard to find out what the new information is (they don't
 have (diff) links like Wikipedia, so you have to play a game of
 spot-the-difference manually).

   
Perhaps happily overwrites totally while updating information ought to 
be part of the definition of news source, in new-media analysis. It 
does serve as a distinction, say BBC versus us.There's a bit more to it, 
of course.

Charles


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-07 Thread WJhonson
In a message dated 6/7/2009 7:15:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
wiki...@googlemail.com writes:


 Unsurprising indeed. I get the impression, from projects such as Knol, 
 that
 Google is something of an admirer of the Wikipedia model.
 -

Knol however is only collaborative on the meta-level.  And even then only 
spottily.
The articles are not typically collaborations, but rather independent 
creations of a single individual.

Will




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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-07 Thread Sage Ross
On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:15 PM, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
 In a message dated 6/7/2009 7:15:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
 wiki...@googlemail.com writes:


 Unsurprising indeed. I get the impression, from projects such as Knol,
 that
 Google is something of an admirer of the Wikipedia model.
 -

 Knol however is only collaborative on the meta-level.  And even then only
 spottily.
 The articles are not typically collaborations, but rather independent
 creations of a single individual.


Knol is an intermediate platform between a blog and a wiki... it's not
primarily a collaborative platform (so in terms of authorship, it's
blog-like), but what's relevant here is it's wiki-like structure: the
permalinked, timeless topic-based pages rather than the scrolling
timeline of a blog.

-Sage (User:Ragesoss)

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-07 Thread geni
2009/6/7 AGK wiki...@googlemail.com:

 Unfortunate but unsurprising. Not that long ago Google was
 telling traditional media that they should construct their articles in a
 more wikipedia like manner (ie continuously update a single article
 per event rather than creating a string of new articles).


 Unsurprising indeed. I get the impression, from projects such as Knol, that
 Google is something of an admirer of the Wikipedia model.

 AGK

Knol is somewhat different.

Perhaps more directly the recent actions of Google and Microsoft bing
suggest that part of being a modern search engine is effectively
presenting wikipedia content to people.

You also have the issue that both google maps and Microsoft's multimap
have the ability to show wikipedia articles on their maps.

-- 
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-07 Thread David Gerard
2009/6/7 geni geni...@gmail.com:

 Perhaps more directly the recent actions of Google and Microsoft bing
 suggest that part of being a modern search engine is effectively
 presenting wikipedia content to people.


It was certainly surprising to see Microsoft getting into directly
providing a Wikipedia mirror.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Google thinks Wikipedia is a news source

2009-06-07 Thread geni
2009/6/7 David Gerard dger...@gmail.com:
 2009/6/7 geni geni...@gmail.com:

 Perhaps more directly the recent actions of Google and Microsoft bing
 suggest that part of being a modern search engine is effectively
 presenting wikipedia content to people.


 It was certainly surprising to see Microsoft getting into directly
 providing a Wikipedia mirror.


 - d.

Not really new. View say central London on multimap then select the
wikipedia tick box.

With Encarta abandoned microsoft has no real interest in developing an
alternative to wikipedia any more so why not use it?

-- 
geni

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