Re: [WikiEN-l] Tag removals by readers (was: Newbie recruitment: referencing)
On 11/03/11 5:31 AM, Andrew Gray wrote: On 3 November 2011 11:10, Carcharothcarcharot...@googlemail.com wrote: safe and then move on. And then someone else, later, might fix the article during general editing without even looking at the tag, and not remove the tag, or might expect others to remove the tag (no, really, that is a common attitude among some people who prefer others to judge any remedial work they have done - you put the tag there, you should come back and assess whether it is still needed). There's also a widespread belief that I shouldn't/can't remove them. I regularly see emails in OTRS saying I've fixed X page, but the tags are still there, can you check it out; I've seen it occasionally on talkpages as well, though it's less common. This may be because people believe - a) the tags are official, need third party review before they can be removed (to confirm the problem's gone); or b) tags are automatically generated, and that since they're still there after they've made changes, the articles obviously not fixed enough yet. Both beliefs are helped by the fact that a lot of people honestly don't realise the lead section can be edited - they use section edit links, and don't realise that editing the page is how you get at the zeroth section of the article. If you don't see the template when you edit, you're less likely to realise it's a template to be removed. - and even if you know about templates, if you can't figure out how to get to it, you're stuck! Even if you can get past this technical hurdle, the social/intellectual one will still be there. I certainly don't want to spend a lot of time trying to second guess the individual who put up the banner. Perhaps I've only fixed the problem in the one part of the article where I can help, and left the rest for others without seriously looking at the rest of the article. Completely resolving the problems is a often an accumulation of multiple efforts. If I'm not editing in response to the tag I'll more likely ignore it completely, It's fair enough to believe that the people who put up the tags are the best ones to remove them. Adding tags should accomplish more than generating work for other people. Ray ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Tag removals by readers (was: Newbie recruitment: referencing)
On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 8:02 AM, Ray Saintonge sainto...@telus.net wrote: On 11/03/11 5:31 AM, Andrew Gray wrote: On 3 November 2011 11:10, Carcharothcarcharot...@googlemail.com wrote: safe and then move on. And then someone else, later, might fix the article during general editing without even looking at the tag, and not remove the tag, or might expect others to remove the tag (no, really, that is a common attitude among some people who prefer others to judge any remedial work they have done - you put the tag there, you should come back and assess whether it is still needed). There's also a widespread belief that I shouldn't/can't remove them. I regularly see emails in OTRS saying I've fixed X page, but the tags are still there, can you check it out; I've seen it occasionally on talkpages as well, though it's less common. This may be because people believe - a) the tags are official, need third party review before they can be removed (to confirm the problem's gone); or b) tags are automatically generated, and that since they're still there after they've made changes, the articles obviously not fixed enough yet. Both beliefs are helped by the fact that a lot of people honestly don't realise the lead section can be edited - they use section edit links, and don't realise that editing the page is how you get at the zeroth section of the article. If you don't see the template when you edit, you're less likely to realise it's a template to be removed. - and even if you know about templates, if you can't figure out how to get to it, you're stuck! Even if you can get past this technical hurdle, the social/intellectual one will still be there. I certainly don't want to spend a lot of time trying to second guess the individual who put up the banner. Perhaps I've only fixed the problem in the one part of the article where I can help, and left the rest for others without seriously looking at the rest of the article. Completely resolving the problems is a often an accumulation of multiple efforts. If I'm not editing in response to the tag I'll more likely ignore it completely, It's fair enough to believe that the people who put up the tags are the best ones to remove them. Adding tags should accomplish more than generating work for other people. I haven't been able to find the time yet (and won't until this evening), but could someone here possibly point out this thread (and the basic arguments being made here) to those commenting at the original opinion piece? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2011-10-31/Opinion_essay There is a way to link to this thread, let me find the link: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2011-November/109605.html Carcharoth ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
[WikiEN-l] Tag removals by readers (was: Newbie recruitment: referencing)
On 3 November 2011 11:10, Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com wrote: safe and then move on. And then someone else, later, might fix the article during general editing without even looking at the tag, and not remove the tag, or might expect others to remove the tag (no, really, that is a common attitude among some people who prefer others to judge any remedial work they have done - you put the tag there, you should come back and assess whether it is still needed). There's also a widespread belief that I shouldn't/can't remove them. I regularly see emails in OTRS saying I've fixed X page, but the tags are still there, can you check it out; I've seen it occasionally on talkpages as well, though it's less common. This may be because people believe - a) the tags are official, need third party review before they can be removed (to confirm the problem's gone); or b) tags are automatically generated, and that since they're still there after they've made changes, the articles obviously not fixed enough yet. Both beliefs are helped by the fact that a lot of people honestly don't realise the lead section can be edited - they use section edit links, and don't realise that editing the page is how you get at the zeroth section of the article. If you don't see the template when you edit, you're less likely to realise it's a template to be removed. - and even if you know about templates, if you can't figure out how to get to it, you're stuck! Working on the assumption that there are people who want to remove templates but are having problems doing so, one solution here might be to build on the (excellent) work that's been done with HotCat, and implement a remove this tag link on the template itself. Click this, you get a little line saying are the problems still here?, click yes, and it loads-and-saves the change in the same way that a HotCat category change works. Thoughts? This would be one way to get our readers to do the triage and cleanup for us... -- - Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Tag removals by readers (was: Newbie recruitment: referencing)
On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote: On 3 November 2011 11:10, Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com wrote: safe and then move on. And then someone else, later, might fix the article during general editing without even looking at the tag, and not remove the tag, or might expect others to remove the tag (no, really, that is a common attitude among some people who prefer others to judge any remedial work they have done - you put the tag there, you should come back and assess whether it is still needed). There's also a widespread belief that I shouldn't/can't remove them. I regularly see emails in OTRS saying I've fixed X page, but the tags are still there, can you check it out; I've seen it occasionally on talkpages as well, though it's less common. Thank-you for confirming from your OTRS experience that this is an actual problem. snip Both beliefs are helped by the fact that a lot of people honestly don't realise the lead section can be edited - they use section edit links, and don't realise that editing the page is how you get at the zeroth section of the article. If you don't see the template when you edit, you're less likely to realise it's a template to be removed. - and even if you know about templates, if you can't figure out how to get to it, you're stuck! Interesting. Hadn't thought of that. Working on the assumption that there are people who want to remove templates but are having problems doing so, one solution here might be to build on the (excellent) work that's been done with HotCat, and implement a remove this tag link on the template itself. Click this, you get a little line saying are the problems still here?, click yes, and it loads-and-saves the change in the same way that a HotCat category change works. Thoughts? This would be one way to get our readers to do the triage and cleanup for us... +1 In fact, +100. Carcharoth ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Tag removals by readers (was: Newbie recruitment: referencing)
For some of them why not go one step further and replace the template with an automatically generated hidden category? Dead end, uncategorised, undercategorised and orphan could all be replaced with fully automated hidden categories; no need for the adding or subtraction of templates. Though we'd need a template or hidden cat for unsuccessful deorphaning attempts. WereSpielChequers On 3 November 2011 13:00, Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote: On 3 November 2011 11:10, Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com wrote: safe and then move on. And then someone else, later, might fix the article during general editing without even looking at the tag, and not remove the tag, or might expect others to remove the tag (no, really, that is a common attitude among some people who prefer others to judge any remedial work they have done - you put the tag there, you should come back and assess whether it is still needed). There's also a widespread belief that I shouldn't/can't remove them. I regularly see emails in OTRS saying I've fixed X page, but the tags are still there, can you check it out; I've seen it occasionally on talkpages as well, though it's less common. Thank-you for confirming from your OTRS experience that this is an actual problem. snip Both beliefs are helped by the fact that a lot of people honestly don't realise the lead section can be edited - they use section edit links, and don't realise that editing the page is how you get at the zeroth section of the article. If you don't see the template when you edit, you're less likely to realise it's a template to be removed. - and even if you know about templates, if you can't figure out how to get to it, you're stuck! Interesting. Hadn't thought of that. Working on the assumption that there are people who want to remove templates but are having problems doing so, one solution here might be to build on the (excellent) work that's been done with HotCat, and implement a remove this tag link on the template itself. Click this, you get a little line saying are the problems still here?, click yes, and it loads-and-saves the change in the same way that a HotCat category change works. Thoughts? This would be one way to get our readers to do the triage and cleanup for us... +1 In fact, +100. Carcharoth ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Tag removals by readers (was: Newbie recruitment: referencing)
That's a good idea as well, though some might see it as trampling on the stuff swept under the rug (making it less visible). But you are right that some backlogs don't really need to be visible to readers. Carcharoth On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 5:22 PM, WereSpielChequers werespielchequ...@gmail.com wrote: For some of them why not go one step further and replace the template with an automatically generated hidden category? Dead end, uncategorised, undercategorised and orphan could all be replaced with fully automated hidden categories; no need for the adding or subtraction of templates. Though we'd need a template or hidden cat for unsuccessful deorphaning attempts. WereSpielChequers On 3 November 2011 13:00, Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote: On 3 November 2011 11:10, Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com wrote: safe and then move on. And then someone else, later, might fix the article during general editing without even looking at the tag, and not remove the tag, or might expect others to remove the tag (no, really, that is a common attitude among some people who prefer others to judge any remedial work they have done - you put the tag there, you should come back and assess whether it is still needed). There's also a widespread belief that I shouldn't/can't remove them. I regularly see emails in OTRS saying I've fixed X page, but the tags are still there, can you check it out; I've seen it occasionally on talkpages as well, though it's less common. Thank-you for confirming from your OTRS experience that this is an actual problem. snip Both beliefs are helped by the fact that a lot of people honestly don't realise the lead section can be edited - they use section edit links, and don't realise that editing the page is how you get at the zeroth section of the article. If you don't see the template when you edit, you're less likely to realise it's a template to be removed. - and even if you know about templates, if you can't figure out how to get to it, you're stuck! Interesting. Hadn't thought of that. Working on the assumption that there are people who want to remove templates but are having problems doing so, one solution here might be to build on the (excellent) work that's been done with HotCat, and implement a remove this tag link on the template itself. Click this, you get a little line saying are the problems still here?, click yes, and it loads-and-saves the change in the same way that a HotCat category change works. Thoughts? This would be one way to get our readers to do the triage and cleanup for us... +1 In fact, +100. Carcharoth ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Tag removals by readers (was: Newbie recruitment: referencing)
I've hinted for a while that for {{orphan}}ed and {{dead end}}ed
articles, you could replace the manual method of using templates and
categories with automated database reports that are much more accurate.
But those could also be considered sweeping under the rug, as many
database reports tend to get neglected also.
-MuZemike
On 11/3/2011 12:58 PM, Carcharoth wrote:
That's a good idea as well, though some might see it as trampling on
the stuff swept under the rug (making it less visible). But you are
right that some backlogs don't really need to be visible to readers.
Carcharoth
On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 5:22 PM, WereSpielChequers
werespielchequ...@gmail.com wrote:
For some of them why not go one step further and replace the template with
an automatically generated hidden category?
Dead end, uncategorised, undercategorised and orphan could all be replaced
with fully automated hidden categories; no need for the adding or
subtraction of templates. Though we'd need a template or hidden cat for
unsuccessful deorphaning attempts.
WereSpielChequers
On 3 November 2011 13:00, Carcharothcarcharot...@googlemail.com wrote:
On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Andrew Grayandrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk
wrote:
On 3 November 2011 11:10, Carcharothcarcharot...@googlemail.com
wrote:
safe and then move on. And then someone else, later, might fix the
article during general editing without even looking at the tag, and
not remove the tag, or might expect others to remove the tag (no,
really, that is a common attitude among some people who prefer others
to judge any remedial work they have done - you put the tag there, you
should come back and assess whether it is still needed).
There's also a widespread belief that I shouldn't/can't remove them.
I regularly see emails in OTRS saying I've fixed X page, but the tags
are still there, can you check it out; I've seen it occasionally on
talkpages as well, though it's less common.
Thank-you for confirming from your OTRS experience that this is an
actual problem.
snip
Both beliefs are helped by the fact that a lot of people honestly
don't realise the lead section can be edited - they use section edit
links, and don't realise that editing the page is how you get at the
zeroth section of the article. If you don't see the template when
you edit, you're less likely to realise it's a template to be removed.
- and even if you know about templates, if you can't figure out how to
get to it, you're stuck!
Interesting. Hadn't thought of that.
Working on the assumption that there are people who want to remove
templates but are having problems doing so, one solution here might be
to build on the (excellent) work that's been done with HotCat, and
implement a remove this tag link on the template itself. Click this,
you get a little line saying are the problems still here?, click
yes, and it loads-and-saves the change in the same way that a HotCat
category change works.
Thoughts? This would be one way to get our readers to do the triage
and cleanup for us...
+1
In fact, +100.
Carcharoth
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