Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[stevertigo]

Risker  wrote:

> Thanks Steve, that's getting closer.  What's missing is texture. The
> original looks like a puzzle, and the alternates don't quite get there yet;
> when you look at a puzzle, you see shadings as you come close to the lines,
> which in a real puzzle are pressed cuts, so there is a more reflective
> (whiter) edge at the bottom and right sides and a more absorbent (darker)
> edge on the top and left sides of each individual piece.  That, to me, is
> what is missing in the "new and improved' versions.
>
> I really do appreciate all the work that has gone into making all of these
> versions. A lot of improvements have been made in the lettering, the
> placement of letters, the "3-D-ness" of the globe. It's just lost its
> "puzzle-ness" along the way, and I'm sure it can be fine-tuned as time goes
> on.

You're right about the issues with the textures and the "3-D-ness" -
though some may consider a smoother look to be more "2.0."

The issue with the loss of "3-D-ness," as people may have figured out,
is that it's next to impossible to emulate a 3-D rendering with
2-D/vector gradients . SVG/vector formats are made for graphical art,
not realistic looking things, and my sense is that the 3-D globe looks
warped out of shape.

-SC

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Risker]

On 15 May 2010 02:28, stevertigo  wrote:

> Casey Brown  wrote:
> > Actually, there's now a thread on Commons for logo feedback:
> > <
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikipedia/2.0#Logo_revisions_need_input
> >
>
> I have tried my hand at tweaking a few things in SVG:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wikipedia-logo-v2-en-alt.svg
>
> Notes are in there too.
>
> -SC
>
> ___
>

Thanks Steve, that's getting closer.  What's missing is texture. The
original looks like a puzzle, and the alternates don't quite get there yet;
when you look at a puzzle, you see shadings as you come close to the lines,
which in a real puzzle are pressed cuts, so there is a more reflective
(whiter) edge at the bottom and right sides and a more absorbent (darker)
edge on the top and left sides of each individual piece.  That, to me, is
what is missing in the "new and improved' versions.

I really do appreciate all the work that has gone into making all of these
versions. A lot of improvements have been made in the lettering, the
placement of letters, the "3-D-ness" of the globe. It's just lost its
"puzzle-ness" along the way, and I'm sure it can be fine-tuned as time goes
on.

Risker
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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Michael Peel]

On 15 May 2010, at 03:20, Casey Brown wrote:

> On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 5:40 AM, Carcharoth  
> wrote:
>> Logo stuff can be discussed on the Wikimedia blog here:
>> 
>> http://blog.wikimedia.org/2010/05/13/wikipedia-in-3d/
>> 
> 
> Actually, there's now a thread on Commons for logo feedback:
> 
> 
> Also make sure you see the update on the blog post:
> 
> "We’ve received a lot of feedback about how the new Wikipedia identity
> functions in different browsers, and we’re working on some minor
> improvements over the next few days.  We’ve captured much of the
> feedback below, and now encourage users to visit this thread on
> Wikimedia commons where you can further comment on a revised version,
> currently being tested on our prototype Wikipedia.  Thanks!"

It's worth while looking at the gallery on that page, showing the old logo, the 
first new version, and the revised new version:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikipedia/2.0#Gallery
The revised new version is substantially better than the one currently on 
en.wp, and in my opinion is better than the old logo now: it's a lot cleaner. 
The sooner this version gets onto en.wp, the better.

Mike
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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[stevertigo]

Casey Brown  wrote:
> Actually, there's now a thread on Commons for logo feedback:
> 

I have tried my hand at tweaking a few things in SVG:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wikipedia-logo-v2-en-alt.svg

Notes are in there too.

-SC

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Casey Brown]

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 5:40 AM, Carcharoth  wrote:
> Logo stuff can be discussed on the Wikimedia blog here:
>
> http://blog.wikimedia.org/2010/05/13/wikipedia-in-3d/
>

Actually, there's now a thread on Commons for logo feedback:


Also make sure you see the update on the blog post:

"We’ve received a lot of feedback about how the new Wikipedia identity
functions in different browsers, and we’re working on some minor
improvements over the next few days.  We’ve captured much of the
feedback below, and now encourage users to visit this thread on
Wikimedia commons where you can further comment on a revised version,
currently being tested on our prototype Wikipedia.  Thanks!"

-- 
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Ian Woollard]

On 14/05/2010, David Gerard  wrote:
> On 14 May 2010 21:21, Ian Woollard  wrote:
>
>> No, it's a horrible, horrible bug in the search box.
>> To be honest, I think this bug should have gated the release; about
>> 50% of the page hits go through this one box, and it's rewriting what
>> the users type.
>
> Has it been reported to Bugzilla/the tech list?

https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23498

I'd be very surprised if there was no earlier one though.

> - d.

-- 
-Ian Woollard

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[David Gerard]

On 14 May 2010 21:21, Ian Woollard  wrote:

> No, it's a horrible, horrible bug in the search box.
> To be honest, I think this bug should have gated the release; about
> 50% of the page hits go through this one box, and it's rewriting what
> the users type.


Has it been reported to Bugzilla/the tech list?


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Ian Woollard]

On 13/05/2010, Gregory Maxwell  wrote:
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Ian Woollard 
> wrote:
>> Under firefox, the new search box is quite buggy actually. I just
>> tried typing really quickly into it on a slow machine, and ended up
>> with only half the information appearing; the third time the full
>> information briefly appeared, and then shortened itself and in each
>
> I've just run into this a couple of times...  And I'm not on a slow
> machine (or is a dual core 64bit 2ghz machine now slow?).
>
> I also hit it on commons all the time, but figured it was a result of
> the crazy JS we've always got running over there.

No, it's a horrible, horrible bug in the search box.

To be honest, I think this bug should have gated the release; about
50% of the page hits go through this one box, and it's rewriting what
the users type.

-- 
-Ian Woollard

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Carcharoth]

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Magnus Manske
 wrote:
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 8:12 PM, Carcharoth  
> wrote:



>> 
>>
>> I'm used to typing the term for a page I know is there and hitting
>> "search" (instead of "go") because I want the results of a search
>> rather than being take to the page (e.g. when searching for people not
>> listed on a disambiguation page, though they should be). How do I do
>> that now? Ah. I click the small microscope icon and type in the full
>> search page instead. :-)
>
> Or, you just type your search query, then hit the "cursor up" key to
> select the last point in the dropdown box, which is the good ol'
> search function. Hit enter, and there you go.
> Saves me one key stroke (before, two "tabs" to get to the "search"
> button, now one cursor key).

Genius! Thanks!

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Carcharoth]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 4:01 PM, William Beutler
 wrote:
>
> Despite my concerns about the search box location, I was resigned to the
> Vector changeover until just this moment. And while I'm glad to see the
> Japanese fixed (and possibly some of the other languages) the new *look* is
> not an improvement. Too dark, too small. If there is a discussion about
> those changes somewhere, I'd be interested to see it. Didn't realize this
> was part of it.

Logo stuff can be discussed on the Wikimedia blog here:

http://blog.wikimedia.org/2010/05/13/wikipedia-in-3d/

Not sure where other logo discussions are.

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Magnus Manske]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 8:12 PM, Carcharoth  wrote:
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 8:08 PM, Ian Woollard  wrote:
>> On 13/05/2010, AGK  wrote:
>>> I prefer the old location for the search box, yes. But I think that's
>>> because I'm _used_ to it being on the left. I think the usability team
>>> gave a rationale at one point for the new box location, and I seem to
>>> recall it being quite a sound one.
>>
>> Under firefox, the new search box is quite buggy actually. I just
>> tried typing really quickly into it on a slow machine, and ended up
>> with only half the information appearing; the third time the full
>> information briefly appeared, and then shortened itself and in each
>> case it went to where it now said (nowhere useful). Only one out of
>> three times did I end up at the right page, and it clearly wasn't
>> simply my typo since I didn't touch the back key.
>
> 
>
> I'm used to typing the term for a page I know is there and hitting
> "search" (instead of "go") because I want the results of a search
> rather than being take to the page (e.g. when searching for people not
> listed on a disambiguation page, though they should be). How do I do
> that now? Ah. I click the small microscope icon and type in the full
> search page instead. :-)

Or, you just type your search query, then hit the "cursor up" key to
select the last point in the dropdown box, which is the good ol'
search function. Hit enter, and there you go.
Saves me one key stroke (before, two "tabs" to get to the "search"
button, now one cursor key).

> Learning to find your way around a new interface is half the battle.

Indeed.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The new look to Wikipedia

[Chad]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:14 AM, Magnus Manske
 wrote:
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Amory Meltzer  wrote:
>> Delete and protect are in the dropdown arrow next to the star on the
>> upper-right.  Block is where it always was, on the toolbar on the
>> left, but you have to click the arrow to display the menu.  The reason
>> none of your scripts worked is that they are all in
>> [[User:WereSpielChequers/monobook.js]].  The new skin is called
>> vector, so just copy all of that over to
>> [[User:WereSpielChequers/vector.js]]
>
> Maybe that should be done automatically for everyone where monobook.js
> exists but vector.js doesn't?
>

Really what people should start doing is stop using skin-specific
JS and start moving to using User:Name/common.js instead.

-Chad

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[William Beutler]

Despite my concerns about the search box location, I was resigned to the
Vector changeover until just this moment. And while I'm glad to see the
Japanese fixed (and possibly some of the other languages) the new *look* is
not an improvement. Too dark, too small. If there is a discussion about
those changes somewhere, I'd be interested to see it. Didn't realize this
was part of it.



On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:31 AM, David Gerard  wrote:

> On 13 May 2010 12:38, AGK  wrote:
>
> > I don't really like it either. But whilst from an editor's point of
> > view the skin is less suitable than monobook (or even modern), I think
> > our readers will enjoy the new layout.
>
>
> I disagree. I've been using Vector since the beta and find it no problem.
>
>
> > But although it's too early for the mainstream media to have covered
> > the redesign, what reception the blogosphere has given it seems to be
> > generally negative. (Google 'wikipedia new design' and take a look at
> > the blog posts and comments. But take the comments with a pinch of
> > salt; typically, only those with some kind of axe to grind will
> > comment on a blog post.)
>
>
> I just approved about twenty complaints about the new layout and
> puzzle globe on the Wikimedia blog ;-)
>
> (I suspect the puzzle globe rendering could do with tweaking, but I
> strongly approve of the official font for the logo being a properly
> free font.)
>
>
> - d.
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Amory Meltzer]

I absolutely agree.  I'd never use vector to edit, but from a purely
reading point of view (which is still >50% of how I use Wikimedia)
it's gorgeous, and very smooth, and I feel definitely highlights the
"editing" aspect as well.

~A



On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 16:21, AGK  wrote:
> On 13 May 2010 21:10, Carcharoth  wrote:
>> I realise I (and others) will have to adapt, and this is all part of
>> the usability drive.
>
> I maintain that the usability drive is almost exclusively aimed at
> those just discovering editing, and at new editors.
>*snip*
> AGK

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[stevertigo]

Charles Matthews  wrote:

> Indeed. Going back to monobook is not quite enough, though. Best to hide
> the message speaking of "We've made a few improvements to Wikipedia", too.

And who is "we" in the "we've made improvements." It was not long ago
that "we" made the improvements.

-SC

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Charles Matthews]

AGK wrote:
> Basically, us set-in-our-ways old-timers aren't the target audience
> for the Vector skin :-).
>
>   
Indeed. Going back to monobook is not quite enough, though. Best to hide 
the message speaking of "We've made a few improvements to Wikipedia", too.

Charles


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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[stevertigo]

> stevertigo  wrote:
>> Agree - it needs a lot of tweaking to make it look presentable, let
>> alone professional. The shadows and thin lines make it look
>> reminiscent of Uncyclopedia's logo.

Carcharoth  wrote:
> I get the feeling something is missing behind it.

It used to have a soul.

-SC

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[AGK]

On 13 May 2010 21:10, Carcharoth  wrote:
> I realise I (and others) will have to adapt, and this is all part of
> the usability drive.

I maintain that the usability drive is almost exclusively aimed at
those just discovering editing, and at new editors. It became clear
that editing Wikipedia is a very complicated process that often puts
off new editors. So by making the interface more user-friendly and
more akin to what is found on other (usually non-wiki) websites and on
offline software (notice that the edit box is more like MS
Word/OpenOffice.org Writer), we make the learning curve for new
editors less steep.

Basically, us set-in-our-ways old-timers aren't the target audience
for the Vector skin :-).

AGK

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Carcharoth]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 9:03 PM, Charles Matthews
 wrote:
> Carcharoth wrote:
>> 
>>
>> I'm used to typing the term for a page I know is there and hitting
>> "search" (instead of "go") because I want the results of a search
>> rather than being take to the page (e.g. when searching for people not
>> listed on a disambiguation page, though they should be). How do I do
>> that now? Ah. I click the small microscope icon and type in the full
>> search page instead. :-)
>>
>> Learning to find your way around a new interface is half the battle.
>>
> The other half, presumably, being to get over the annoyance that
> searching the site takes an extra keystroke or click now.

Well, not really, as I also type stuff in the URL and then click
"search" when the page isn't there, so saving the number of clicks I
do isn't really the aim. It's just getting past the "feeling lost"
stage and finding where stuff has been moved to, and where previous
functionality has been placed (and replicating it elsewhere if lost).
I realise I (and others) will have to adapt, and this is all part of
the usability drive.

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Charles Matthews]

Carcharoth wrote:
> 
>
> I'm used to typing the term for a page I know is there and hitting
> "search" (instead of "go") because I want the results of a search
> rather than being take to the page (e.g. when searching for people not
> listed on a disambiguation page, though they should be). How do I do
> that now? Ah. I click the small microscope icon and type in the full
> search page instead. :-)
>
> Learning to find your way around a new interface is half the battle.
>   
The other half, presumably, being to get over the annoyance that 
searching the site takes an extra keystroke or click now.

Charles


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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Gregory Maxwell]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Ian Woollard  wrote:
> On 13/05/2010, AGK  wrote:
>> I prefer the old location for the search box, yes. But I think that's
>> because I'm _used_ to it being on the left. I think the usability team
>> gave a rationale at one point for the new box location, and I seem to
>> recall it being quite a sound one.
>
> Under firefox, the new search box is quite buggy actually. I just
> tried typing really quickly into it on a slow machine, and ended up
> with only half the information appearing; the third time the full
> information briefly appeared, and then shortened itself and in each

I've just run into this a couple of times...  And I'm not on a slow
machine (or is a dual core 64bit 2ghz machine now slow?).

I also hit it on commons all the time, but figured it was a result of
the crazy JS we've always got running over there.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Ian Woollard]

On 13/05/2010, Carcharoth  wrote:
> I'm used to typing the term for a page I know is there and hitting
> "search" (instead of "go") because I want the results of a search
> rather than being take to the page (e.g. when searching for people not
> listed on a disambiguation page, though they should be). How do I do
> that now? Ah. I click the small microscope icon and type in the full
> search page instead. :-)

Yes, that's the other bad thing about the 'search'; it's really a 'go'
box that's marked 'search'.

I actually stopped using the demo version due to that.

> Carcharoth

-- 
-Ian Woollard

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Carcharoth]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 8:08 PM, Ian Woollard  wrote:
> On 13/05/2010, AGK  wrote:
>> I prefer the old location for the search box, yes. But I think that's
>> because I'm _used_ to it being on the left. I think the usability team
>> gave a rationale at one point for the new box location, and I seem to
>> recall it being quite a sound one.
>
> Under firefox, the new search box is quite buggy actually. I just
> tried typing really quickly into it on a slow machine, and ended up
> with only half the information appearing; the third time the full
> information briefly appeared, and then shortened itself and in each
> case it went to where it now said (nowhere useful). Only one out of
> three times did I end up at the right page, and it clearly wasn't
> simply my typo since I didn't touch the back key.



I'm used to typing the term for a page I know is there and hitting
"search" (instead of "go") because I want the results of a search
rather than being take to the page (e.g. when searching for people not
listed on a disambiguation page, though they should be). How do I do
that now? Ah. I click the small microscope icon and type in the full
search page instead. :-)

Learning to find your way around a new interface is half the battle.

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Ian Woollard]

On 13/05/2010, AGK  wrote:
> I prefer the old location for the search box, yes. But I think that's
> because I'm _used_ to it being on the left. I think the usability team
> gave a rationale at one point for the new box location, and I seem to
> recall it being quite a sound one.

Under firefox, the new search box is quite buggy actually. I just
tried typing really quickly into it on a slow machine, and ended up
with only half the information appearing; the third time the full
information briefly appeared, and then shortened itself and in each
case it went to where it now said (nowhere useful). Only one out of
three times did I end up at the right page, and it clearly wasn't
simply my typo since I didn't touch the back key.

> AGK

-- 
-Ian Woollard

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Carcharoth]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 7:46 PM, stevertigo  wrote:
> David Gerard  wrote:
>> I disagree. I've been using Vector since the beta and find it no problem.
>
> I agree. I've been using beta as well and I think people just need to
> be familiar with it. What would be "usable" would be a simple drop
> down menu for letting the user choose between them.
>
>> (I suspect the puzzle globe rendering could do with tweaking,
>
> Agree - it needs a lot of tweaking to make it look presentable, let
> alone professional. The shadows and thin lines make it look
> reminiscent of Uncyclopedia's logo.

I get the feeling something is missing behind it. Is there a
screenshot of what it looked like before?

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[stevertigo]

David Gerard  wrote:
> I disagree. I've been using Vector since the beta and find it no problem.

I agree. I've been using beta as well and I think people just need to
be familiar with it. What would be "usable" would be a simple drop
down menu for letting the user choose between them.

> (I suspect the puzzle globe rendering could do with tweaking,

Agree - it needs a lot of tweaking to make it look presentable, let
alone professional. The shadows and thin lines make it look
reminiscent of Uncyclopedia's logo.

-SC

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The new look to Wikipedia

[Calculator Ftvb]

Noöne; I just thought it important to make sure users' monobook scripts
weren't broken.

—Ecw.technoid.dweeb

On 13 May 2010 13:19, Magnus Manske  wrote:

> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Calculator Ftvb 
> wrote:
> > On 13 May 2010 10:14, Magnus Manske  wrote:
> >>
> >> Maybe that should be done automatically for everyone where monobook.js
> >> exists but vector.js doesn't?
> >
> > If that were done, it would be important to make sure the monobook.js was
> > retained (do it as a copy, rather than a move).
>
> Who suggested a move? The mail I replied to mentioned "copy".
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] The new look to Wikipedia

[Magnus Manske]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Calculator Ftvb  wrote:
> On 13 May 2010 10:14, Magnus Manske  wrote:
>>
>> Maybe that should be done automatically for everyone where monobook.js
>> exists but vector.js doesn't?
>
> If that were done, it would be important to make sure the monobook.js was
> retained (do it as a copy, rather than a move).

Who suggested a move? The mail I replied to mentioned "copy".

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The new look to Wikipedia

[Calculator Ftvb]

On 13 May 2010 10:14, Magnus Manske  wrote:
>
> Maybe that should be done automatically for everyone where monobook.js
> exists but vector.js doesn't?

If that were done, it would be important to make sure the monobook.js was
retained (do it as a copy, rather than a move).

—Ecw.technoid.dweeb

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Carcharoth]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Phantomsteve
 wrote:

> I'll try vector when I have a chance to try out the different scripts which
> I have in monobook - I might just add them one at a time to vector and see
> which work and which don't!

There is a page that helps people with scripts move over to vector.

My most recent annoyance was having to move the mouse cursor large
distances to reach the "editing" group, when hovering over the
"reader" group. Previously, I could hover over discussion, edit, or
history while making my mind up which one to click. Now I have to
remember to send the cursor to either the left or right, and then
likely back again if I decide I need to discuss rather than edit, or
read the article again, before checking the history. It's enough to
make me start using shortcuts!

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Phantomsteve]

> Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 13:46:47 +0100 
> From: WereSpielChequers  
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] The new look to Wikipedia 
> To: wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
> Message-ID: 
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 
> 
> I couldn't find the deletion and block buttons, and all the 
> scripts various people have set me up with disappeared. So 
> I've reverted to the old skin; At least they made it easy to do that. 
> 
> WereSpielChequers 

I have the same thing - I copied my monobook.js to vector.js, but some of
the scripts won't work. For the time being, I've gone back to monobook (via
my preferences - is there a difference between doing that and clicking on
'Take me back'?)

I'll try vector when I have a chance to try out the different scripts which
I have in monobook - I might just add them one at a time to vector and see
which work and which don't!

Phantomsteve 



  _  

avast! Antivirus <http://www.avast.com> : Outbound message clean. 


Virus Database (VPS): 100513-0, 13/05/2010
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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Carcharoth]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:57 PM, MuZemike  wrote:

>  Another gripe is that they shrunk the
> search box even smaller, which really makes looking for a page
> problematic. On nearly all computers and with how vector is set up to
> operate, the width of the search box could easily be doubled.

I hope usage of the search box is being tracked (if that is possible)
to see whether use goes up or down with these changes.

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[MuZemike]

On 5/13/2010 8:36 AM, Stephen Bain wrote:
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 6:37 PM, Charles Matthews
>   wrote:
>
>> My first reaction is that the watchlist arrangements are cryptic. (I was
>> always going to hate having to scroll to the top for the search box.)
>>  
> I'm used to most of it, as would most of the people who have already
> been using Vector, I imagine. I like the collapsing navigation menus
> now though, very neat.
>
> The thing that's throwing me is the new logo. It's darker than the old
> one was, and actually it seems closer to the original version of the
> puzzle globe.
>
>
I disagree (respectfully), as I especially did not like the usage of 
collapsing navigation menus. It makes me have to click and then click 
again just to get to what I want to do. (FWIW, I have many menu 
functions that I will never use removed on mine via "display: none;" 
additions on my vector.css file.) Another gripe is that they shrunk the 
search box even smaller, which really makes looking for a page 
problematic. On nearly all computers and with how vector is set up to 
operate, the width of the search box could easily be doubled.

Other than those recent changes, both which came within the past 36 
hours IIRC, I like vector as a whole. Looks more modern and crisp than 
monobook.

-MuZemike

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[David Gerard]

On 13 May 2010 12:38, AGK  wrote:

> I don't really like it either. But whilst from an editor's point of
> view the skin is less suitable than monobook (or even modern), I think
> our readers will enjoy the new layout.


I disagree. I've been using Vector since the beta and find it no problem.


> But although it's too early for the mainstream media to have covered
> the redesign, what reception the blogosphere has given it seems to be
> generally negative. (Google 'wikipedia new design' and take a look at
> the blog posts and comments. But take the comments with a pinch of
> salt; typically, only those with some kind of axe to grind will
> comment on a blog post.)


I just approved about twenty complaints about the new layout and
puzzle globe on the Wikimedia blog ;-)

(I suspect the puzzle globe rendering could do with tweaking, but I
strongly approve of the official font for the logo being a properly
free font.)


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The new look to Wikipedia

[Magnus Manske]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Amory Meltzer  wrote:
> Delete and protect are in the dropdown arrow next to the star on the
> upper-right.  Block is where it always was, on the toolbar on the
> left, but you have to click the arrow to display the menu.  The reason
> none of your scripts worked is that they are all in
> [[User:WereSpielChequers/monobook.js]].  The new skin is called
> vector, so just copy all of that over to
> [[User:WereSpielChequers/vector.js]]

Maybe that should be done automatically for everyone where monobook.js
exists but vector.js doesn't?

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[AGK]

> The thing that's throwing me is the new logo. It's darker than the old
> one was, and actually it seems closer to the original version of the
> puzzle globe.

It also looks to me less sharp than the old version. Especially
odd-looking is the text underneath the Wikipedia globe. Does anybody
else notice this?

AGK

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Amory Meltzer]

It's counter-intuitive, perhaps, but I find the internet community as
a whole to be surprisingly unaccepting of change.

~A


On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 09:16, William Pietri  wrote:
> People should probably take blog and blog comment reaction with quite a
> bit of salt. I've been through a lot of redesigns, and the visible
> reaction always includes a lot of grumbling. The best you can hope for
> is general acquiescence with some griping, but getting a bucketful of
> worst! design! evaaar! still doesn't tell you much about the quality of
> the design.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The new look to Wikipedia

[Amory Meltzer]

Delete and protect are in the dropdown arrow next to the star on the
upper-right.  Block is where it always was, on the toolbar on the
left, but you have to click the arrow to display the menu.  The reason
none of your scripts worked is that they are all in
[[User:WereSpielChequers/monobook.js]].  The new skin is called
vector, so just copy all of that over to
[[User:WereSpielChequers/vector.js]]

~A



On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 08:46, WereSpielChequers
 wrote:
> I couldn't find the deletion and block buttons, and all the scripts
> various people have set me up with disappeared. So I've reverted to
> the old skin; At least they made it easy to do that.
>
> WereSpielChequers
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 12:38:56 +0100
>> From: AGK 
>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look
>> To: English Wikipedia 
>> Message-ID:
>>        
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>>> Cameron and Clegg have got to WP already? No, I must be confused, but
>>> the "new look" has arrived on our pages.
>>
>> I don't really like it either. But whilst from an editor's point of
>> view the skin is less suitable than monobook (or even modern), I think
>> our readers will enjoy the new layout. The redesign seemed to be
>> well-received in any publications that gave a preview of the proposed
>> changes:
>>
>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2010/mar/29/wikipedia-redesign
>>
>> But although it's too early for the mainstream media to have covered
>> the redesign, what reception the blogosphere has given it seems to be
>> generally negative. (Google 'wikipedia new design' and take a look at
>> the blog posts and comments. But take the comments with a pinch of
>> salt; typically, only those with some kind of axe to grind will
>> comment on a blog post.)
>>
>>> My first reaction is that the watchlist arrangements are cryptic. (I was
>>> always going to hate having to scroll to the top for the search box.)
>>
>> I prefer the old location for the search box, yes. But I think that's
>> because I'm _used_ to it being on the left. I think the usability team
>> gave a rationale at one point for the new box location, and I seem to
>> recall it being quite a sound one.
>>
>> I don't know what you mean to say about the watchlist arrangements.
>> Are you referring to the little star in place of a 'watch' tab?
>>
>> AGK
>
>
>
>
> --
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Stephen Bain]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 6:37 PM, Charles Matthews
 wrote:
>
> My first reaction is that the watchlist arrangements are cryptic. (I was
> always going to hate having to scroll to the top for the search box.)

I'm used to most of it, as would most of the people who have already
been using Vector, I imagine. I like the collapsing navigation menus
now though, very neat.

The thing that's throwing me is the new logo. It's darker than the old
one was, and actually it seems closer to the original version of the
puzzle globe.

-- 
Stephen Bain
stephen.b...@gmail.com

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[William Pietri]

On 05/13/2010 04:38 AM, AGK wrote:
> But although it's too early for the mainstream media to have covered
> the redesign, what reception the blogosphere has given it seems to be
> generally negative. (Google 'wikipedia new design' and take a look at
> the blog posts and comments. But take the comments with a pinch of
> salt; typically, only those with some kind of axe to grind will
> comment on a blog post.)
>

People should probably take blog and blog comment reaction with quite a 
bit of salt. I've been through a lot of redesigns, and the visible 
reaction always includes a lot of grumbling. The best you can hope for 
is general acquiescence with some griping, but getting a bucketful of 
worst! design! evaaar! still doesn't tell you much about the quality of 
the design.

For all but the most neophilic and the most design-aware of your engaged 
users, a design change is, when it is noticed at all, a pure short-term 
cost. There may be a long-term gain for them, and there will hopefully 
be a bigger gain for the previously less-engaged users.  But almost by 
definition, current users think things are mostly fine, especially the 
ones engaged enough to notice and comment upon a new design. And just 
when they've gotten comfortable, somebody's gone and moved things around 
on them. How rude!

The true measure of a new design is in its medium-term impact on the 
behavior of users, both the large majority of current users who never 
would have bothered to comment and the new users that turn up for the 
first time. Are people searching more? Do they have an easier time 
finding the left-hand links that they need? Are novices editing more? 
And so on.

For comparison, people should look at the comments on any recent Google 
redesign. Google has a love of data and the resources to do a ton of 
testing before any public launch of a redesign, so you can be pretty 
sure that the metrics for any change are solid. But you can still find 
as many zomg-design-fail comments as you care to read.

William

P.S. That's not to say that any redesign, including this one, is 
perfect, or to devalue user feedback. I'm just saying that the tone of 
the initial reaction isn't a good way to measure design quality.

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[WikiEN-l] The new look to Wikipedia

[WereSpielChequers]

I couldn't find the deletion and block buttons, and all the scripts
various people have set me up with disappeared. So I've reverted to
the old skin; At least they made it easy to do that.

WereSpielChequers
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 12:38:56 +0100
> From: AGK 
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look
> To: English Wikipedia 
> Message-ID:
>        
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>> Cameron and Clegg have got to WP already? No, I must be confused, but
>> the "new look" has arrived on our pages.
>
> I don't really like it either. But whilst from an editor's point of
> view the skin is less suitable than monobook (or even modern), I think
> our readers will enjoy the new layout. The redesign seemed to be
> well-received in any publications that gave a preview of the proposed
> changes:
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2010/mar/29/wikipedia-redesign
>
> But although it's too early for the mainstream media to have covered
> the redesign, what reception the blogosphere has given it seems to be
> generally negative. (Google 'wikipedia new design' and take a look at
> the blog posts and comments. But take the comments with a pinch of
> salt; typically, only those with some kind of axe to grind will
> comment on a blog post.)
>
>> My first reaction is that the watchlist arrangements are cryptic. (I was
>> always going to hate having to scroll to the top for the search box.)
>
> I prefer the old location for the search box, yes. But I think that's
> because I'm _used_ to it being on the left. I think the usability team
> gave a rationale at one point for the new box location, and I seem to
> recall it being quite a sound one.
>
> I don't know what you mean to say about the watchlist arrangements.
> Are you referring to the little star in place of a 'watch' tab?
>
> AGK




--

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Carcharoth]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Charles Matthews
 wrote:
> AGK wrote:
>>> My first reaction is that the watchlist arrangements are cryptic. (I was
>>> always going to hate having to scroll to the top for the search box.)
>>>
>>
>> I prefer the old location for the search box, yes. But I think that's
>> because I'm _used_ to it being on the left. I think the usability team
>> gave a rationale at one point for the new box location, and I seem to
>> recall it being quite a sound one.
>>
>> I don't know what you mean to say about the watchlist arrangements.
>> Are you referring to the little star in place of a 'watch' tab?
>>
> Yes - took me a while to realise that the word "watch" had been reduced
> to a hover-over.

I read Wikipedia logged-out from some locations, and it took me a
while to realise that the "user contributions" link had been collapsed
along with the rest of the toolbox. It seems to be staying
uncollapsed, so hopefully those sort of settings are "sticky" for at
least each session, whether logged in or out (i.e. only have to expand
collapsed stuff once).

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Charles Matthews]

AGK wrote:
>> My first reaction is that the watchlist arrangements are cryptic. (I was
>> always going to hate having to scroll to the top for the search box.)
>> 
>
> I prefer the old location for the search box, yes. But I think that's
> because I'm _used_ to it being on the left. I think the usability team
> gave a rationale at one point for the new box location, and I seem to
> recall it being quite a sound one.
>
> I don't know what you mean to say about the watchlist arrangements.
> Are you referring to the little star in place of a 'watch' tab?
>   
Yes - took me a while to realise that the word "watch" had been reduced 
to a hover-over.

Charles


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Re: [WikiEN-l] The New Look

[AGK]

> Cameron and Clegg have got to WP already? No, I must be confused, but
> the "new look" has arrived on our pages.

I don't really like it either. But whilst from an editor's point of
view the skin is less suitable than monobook (or even modern), I think
our readers will enjoy the new layout. The redesign seemed to be
well-received in any publications that gave a preview of the proposed
changes:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2010/mar/29/wikipedia-redesign

But although it's too early for the mainstream media to have covered
the redesign, what reception the blogosphere has given it seems to be
generally negative. (Google 'wikipedia new design' and take a look at
the blog posts and comments. But take the comments with a pinch of
salt; typically, only those with some kind of axe to grind will
comment on a blog post.)

> My first reaction is that the watchlist arrangements are cryptic. (I was
> always going to hate having to scroll to the top for the search box.)

I prefer the old location for the search box, yes. But I think that's
because I'm _used_ to it being on the left. I think the usability team
gave a rationale at one point for the new box location, and I seem to
recall it being quite a sound one.

I don't know what you mean to say about the watchlist arrangements.
Are you referring to the little star in place of a 'watch' tab?

AGK

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[WikiEN-l] The New Look

[Charles Matthews]

Cameron and Clegg have got to WP already? No, I must be confused, but 
the "new look" has arrived on our pages.

My first reaction is that the watchlist arrangements are cryptic. (I was 
always going to hate having to scroll to the top for the search box.)

Charles


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