Re: [WikiEN-l] bizarre: Women Novelists Wikipedia

[Samuel Klein]

On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 6:18 AM, Andrew Gray  wrote:
> On 26 April 2013 05:19, Fred Bauder  wrote:
>> The thing is that if someone is in a subcategory they are then taken out
>> of the category. So, if the subcategories are applied, nearly everyone
>> should be removed from the higher category such as American novelist.
>> Obviously this was not thought through well. If there is to be a female
>> novelist category there must be a male novelist category. This will
>> become more and more evident as time passes and situation equalizes.
>
> This is normally the case, but there's an explicit exemption for
> gender: at least in theory, single-gender categorisation (where we
> have just "female" without a corresponding "male" category) should not
> be "exclusive", and people should be categorised in both.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity,_gender,_religion_and_sexuality#Gender
>
> Removal from the main category should (again, an aspirational
> "should") only occur when we are completely splitting it into gender
> subcategories.

That makes sense.  It's not how categories are always handled,
however.  And when there is only one gendered category, it is
predominantly female.  For instance, looking at the subset of these
where the category name starts with "male" or "female":
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sj/Gendered_categories

The rare exceptions are categories whose members are predominantly
female.  For instance, you can see the reverse gender bias with beauty
pageants:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Male_beauty_pageants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Beauty_pageants

SJ

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Re: [WikiEN-l] bizarre: Women Novelists Wikipedia

[Charles Matthews]

On 26 April 2013 15:24, Tom Morris  wrote:

> If only there were some kind of editable data store project being worked
> on that could store this kind of metadata in a centralised location… 
>
>
Quite a good if cryptic comment about Wikidata. I suppose it is encouraging
to think that the system as a whole is far from optimised yet.

I have read a couple of blogs now by experienced women Wikipedians advising
a sense of proportion here.

Charles
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Re: [WikiEN-l] bizarre: Women Novelists Wikipedia

[Tom Morris]

If only there were some kind of editable data store project being worked on 
that could store this kind of metadata in a centralised location…   

--  
Tom Morris



On Friday, 26 April 2013 at 13:07, David Gerard wrote:

> On 26 April 2013 12:15, Carcharoth  (mailto:carcharot...@googlemail.com)> wrote:
>  
> > See also:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Category_intersection
> > That's an old proposal, but is it becoming more feasible now?
>  
>  
>  
>  
> As I vaguely recall, the main barrier to treating categories as tags
> in the past was that MySQL was terrible at it and it would have
> crippled performance. (I have no idea if MariaDB is better, but I have
> no reason to think so.) Hence the workaround with sending the
> functionality off to the toolserver. It's really annoying because
> cats-as-tags would be perfect for Commons.




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Re: [WikiEN-l] bizarre: Women Novelists Wikipedia

[David Gerard]

On 26 April 2013 12:15, Carcharoth  wrote:

> See also:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Category_intersection
> That's an old proposal, but is it becoming more feasible now?


As I vaguely recall, the main barrier to treating categories as tags
in the past was that MySQL was terrible at it and it would have
crippled performance. (I have no idea if MariaDB is better, but I have
no reason to think so.) Hence the workaround with sending the
functionality off to the toolserver. It's really annoying because
cats-as-tags would be perfect for Commons.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] bizarre: Women Novelists Wikipedia

[Carcharoth]

On 4/26/13, Andrew Gray  wrote:
> On 26 April 2013 05:19, Fred Bauder  wrote:
>> The thing is that if someone is in a subcategory they are then taken out
>> of the category. So, if the subcategories are applied, nearly everyone
>> should be removed from the higher category such as American novelist.
>> Obviously this was not thought through well. If there is to be a female
>> novelist category there must be a male novelist category. This will
>> become more and more evident as time passes and situation equalizes.
>
> This is normally the case, but there's an explicit exemption for
> gender: at least in theory, single-gender categorisation (where we
> have just "female" without a corresponding "male" category) should not
> be "exclusive", and people should be categorised in both.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity,_gender,_religion_and_sexuality#Gender
>
> Removal from the main category should (again, an aspirational
> "should") only occur when we are completely splitting it into gender
> subcategories.

Yes, but if you try and explain the concept of something being in two
categories at the same time to people not familiar with Wikipedia's
categorisation system, and who are only looking at one of the
categories and getting all upset, it can be difficult. There is a
valid point that those looking at one category based on gender (let's
say female) will think that the 'main' category won't contain male and
female.

Unless the category page explicitly states at the top in the
'description' part of the page, and in a prominent fashion, that the
main category does and should contain both genders, and that the
female subcategory is a convenience when a particular area has been
studied in gender terms.

Personally, I think the de-wiki way is the better way, and the
categorisation system needs to adapt to intersection possibilities.

See also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Category_intersection

That's an old proposal, but is it becoming more feasible now?

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] bizarre: Women Novelists Wikipedia

[Fred Bauder]

"Do not create separate categories for male and female occupants of the
same position, such as "Male Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom" vs.
"Female Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom"." would seem to cover not
creating such categories as women mystery writers.

Fred

> On 26 April 2013 05:19, Fred Bauder  wrote:
>> The thing is that if someone is in a subcategory they are then taken
>> out
>> of the category. So, if the subcategories are applied, nearly everyone
>> should be removed from the higher category such as American novelist.
>> Obviously this was not thought through well. If there is to be a female
>> novelist category there must be a male novelist category. This will
>> become more and more evident as time passes and situation equalizes.
>
> This is normally the case, but there's an explicit exemption for
> gender: at least in theory, single-gender categorisation (where we
> have just "female" without a corresponding "male" category) should not
> be "exclusive", and people should be categorised in both.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity,_gender,_religion_and_sexuality#Gender
>
> Removal from the main category should (again, an aspirational
> "should") only occur when we are completely splitting it into gender
> subcategories.
>
> --
> - Andrew Gray
>   andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk
>



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Re: [WikiEN-l] bizarre: Women Novelists Wikipedia

[Andrew Gray]

On 26 April 2013 05:19, Fred Bauder  wrote:
> The thing is that if someone is in a subcategory they are then taken out
> of the category. So, if the subcategories are applied, nearly everyone
> should be removed from the higher category such as American novelist.
> Obviously this was not thought through well. If there is to be a female
> novelist category there must be a male novelist category. This will
> become more and more evident as time passes and situation equalizes.

This is normally the case, but there's an explicit exemption for
gender: at least in theory, single-gender categorisation (where we
have just "female" without a corresponding "male" category) should not
be "exclusive", and people should be categorised in both.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity,_gender,_religion_and_sexuality#Gender

Removal from the main category should (again, an aspirational
"should") only occur when we are completely splitting it into gender
subcategories.

-- 
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk

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Re: [WikiEN-l] bizarre: Women Novelists Wikipedia

[Charles Matthews]

On 26 April 2013 05:19, Fred Bauder  wrote:
>
>
> Obviously we need to quit arguing and change it. Either a man or a woman
> mystery writer would be in both a gender category and a genre category,
> if we are to have gender categories.
>
>
The German Wikipedia does these things differently, and I once met a German
who thought our approach is plain "wrong". I.e. we should have categories
like Male, Female, and presumably XYY and so on (let's not not be
pedantic). Then, and this is the killer, if you want to research "American
female novelists" all you have to do is intersect the category Female with
the category "American novelists" (or the categories American and Novelist,
who cares, Venn diagrams are good). To do that, run the Catscan 2.0 tool on
the toolserver...

Sadly the toolserver these days is down more often that it should be. But
wait, the cavalry is coming. Real soon now Wikimedia Labs will be available.

I suggest, seriously, that the tech side could be taken into account here
as driving what people can get out of the category system, and so what we
want to put into it. It is part of a research resource, not a place for
attitudes.

Charles
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Re: [WikiEN-l] bizarre: Women Novelists Wikipedia

[Fred Bauder]

The thing is that if someone is in a subcategory they are then taken out
of the category. So, if the subcategories are applied, nearly everyone
should be removed from the higher category such as American novelist.
Obviously this was not thought through well. If there is to be a female
novelist category there must be a male novelist category. This will
become more and more evident as time passes and situation equalizes.

Obviously we need to quit arguing and change it. Either a man or a woman
mystery writer would be in both a gender category and a genre category,
if we are to have gender categories.

Fred

> That doesn't necessarily follow. Surely female American novelists
should appear in both categories.
> On 25 Apr 2013 23:14, "Sarah"  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 2:48 PM, Fred Bauder 
wrote:
>>
>> > What subcategories would American men novelists go into? of course
>> women
>> > would also go into them. By centuries would be one set of
>> subcategories;
>> > and genre: mystery, western, adventure, fantasy, etc.
>> >
>> > Hard to see this as a deliberate slight.
>> >
>> > Fred
>> >
>>
>> Fred, the point is that, if "American women novelists" is to be a
subcategory, then "American male novelists" would have to be a subcat
too.
>> Otherwise the "American novelists" category would be default male,
which is
>> apparently what happened.
>>
>> Sarah
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Re: [WikiEN-l] bizarre: Women Novelists Wikipedia

[James Farrar]

That doesn't necessarily follow. Surely female American novelists should
appear in both categories.
On 25 Apr 2013 23:14, "Sarah"  wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 2:48 PM, Fred Bauder 
> wrote:
>
> > What subcategories would American men novelists go into? of course women
> > would also go into them. By centuries would be one set of subcategories;
> > and genre: mystery, western, adventure, fantasy, etc.
> >
> > Hard to see this as a deliberate slight.
> >
> > Fred
> >
>
> Fred, the point is that, if "American women novelists" is to be a
> subcategory, then "American male novelists" would have to be a subcat too.
> Otherwise the "American novelists" category would be default male, which is
> apparently what happened.
>
> Sarah
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Re: [WikiEN-l] bizarre: Women Novelists Wikipedia

[Sarah]

On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 2:48 PM, Fred Bauder  wrote:

> What subcategories would American men novelists go into? of course women
> would also go into them. By centuries would be one set of subcategories;
> and genre: mystery, western, adventure, fantasy, etc.
>
> Hard to see this as a deliberate slight.
>
> Fred
>

Fred, the point is that, if "American women novelists" is to be a
subcategory, then "American male novelists" would have to be a subcat too.
Otherwise the "American novelists" category would be default male, which is
apparently what happened.

Sarah
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Re: [WikiEN-l] bizarre: Women Novelists Wikipedia

[Fred Bauder]

What subcategories would American men novelists go into? of course women
would also go into them. By centuries would be one set of subcategories;
and genre: mystery, western, adventure, fantasy, etc.

Hard to see this as a deliberate slight.

Fred

>  Wikipedia's overwhelmingly male user-editors began the bizarre forced
> gender migration on Tuesday
>
>
> The New York Times::
>>
>>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/28/opinion/sunday/wikipedias-sexism-toward-female-novelists.html
>>
>
>
> http://www.salon.com/2013/04/25/wikipedia_moves_women_to_american_women_novelists_category_leaves_men_in_american_novelists/
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Re: [WikiEN-l] bizarre: Women Novelists Wikipedia

[Carcharoth]

This is to do with categorisation (the article refers to categories,
but then refers to pages when those 'pages' are in fact dynamic
listings generated on the fly).

One place to raise this would be:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Categorization

It is also worth reading this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categorization

The issue of whether to categorise by gender or not has been debated
for a long time on Wikipedia. This is not some recent thing. See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender,_race_and_sexuality

That is a whole page devoted to how to categorise (or not) by gender,
race and sexuality. It is also possible there was a recent discussion
on this somewhere here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion

Indeed, there is discussion here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_April_24#Category:American_women_novelists

Carcharoth

On 4/25/13, Kathleen McCook  wrote:
>  Wikipedia's overwhelmingly male user-editors began the bizarre forced
> gender migration on Tuesday
>
>
> The New York Times::
>>
>>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/28/opinion/sunday/wikipedias-sexism-toward-female-novelists.html
>>
>
>
> http://www.salon.com/2013/04/25/wikipedia_moves_women_to_american_women_novelists_category_leaves_men_in_american_novelists/
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[WikiEN-l] bizarre: Women Novelists Wikipedia

[Kathleen McCook]

 Wikipedia's overwhelmingly male user-editors began the bizarre forced
gender migration on Tuesday


The New York Times::
>
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/28/opinion/sunday/wikipedias-sexism-toward-female-novelists.html
>


http://www.salon.com/2013/04/25/wikipedia_moves_women_to_american_women_novelists_category_leaves_men_in_american_novelists/
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