[Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Decision of WLM in Ukraine organizers not to submit photos for the international round
Dear Olga and WLM Ukraine - your work is impressive and your efforts to bring visibility and point to issues with WLM in 2022 are also. I can empathize with the feeling one gets when others are benevolent to recognize and act on what seems obvious *(as someone who experienced war aggression in all of my homelands, first SFR Yugoslavia, then Croatia and Bosnia & Herzegovina. I do agree that the WLM 2022 international team should not process Russian photos in a competitive way against Ukrainians and I wish this was raised as an issue more publicly. WLM had issues also before with inertia and no capacity and/or good will to recognize problems on national levels. Here I agree with Peter on* no good options *but this is no excuse for not exploring good-enough or better-than options! I am hopeful that your work will sustain and that soon enough you will inform and inspire systemic change in Wikimedia. Meanwhile I hope WMF can practically support your work at least with material resources to reduce some of the hardships. In solidarity - Z. Blace ___ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list To unsubscribe send an email to wikilovesmonuments-le...@lists.wikimedia.org http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
[Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Regarding the participation of Russia in Wiki Loves Monuments 2022
Hi all, Thanks for your support expressed to Ukraine. To be clear, the Ukrainian team has not argued for barring volunteers from Russia to participate in WLM. What the team has been opposing is consideration of top Russian photos as potential international winners. The argumentation was detailed in a separate letter, so I won’t recount it here. To this end, the case of Wiki Loves Earth this year has been much more acceptable to the Ukrainian community – to sum it up briefly, the Russian team did hold a local competition, but they did not submit photos to the international stage. (Admittedly, Wiki Loves Earth is different by virtue of the fact that the international team originates from Ukraine, which might have prompted Russian organizers to suggest such a course of action). I agree that we as the international community need to work to create some basic criteria for cases such as this and not rely solely on ad-hoc country-specific decisions (though borderline cases will always exist and we'll need to remain flexible). The Ukrainian community indeed doesn’t have the capacity to work out a draft itself – it’s hard enough to support the most basic tasks – but we certainly can be a part of the conversation. Best Regards Anton Protsiuk (in my personal capacity) On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 12:05 PM effe iets anders wrote: > Hi all, > > As you may be aware, I'm no longer part of the International team. But as > an advisor i followed the conversations about this closely. > > First of all i want to express my sincere appreciation for both the teams. > Both in Russia and in Ukraine a competition like this is hard to organize, > arriveert for different reasons. I appreciate the contributions to free > knowledge that they managed to accomplish. > > The Ukrainian team was in an impossible situation to organize the > competition in the first place and managed to anyway. I'm very proud of > their work on this. It is eventually their choice whether they feel that > they can submit images to the International round, and i can understand how > they feel this is the right choice for them and their participants. > > I don't think it's fair to characterize this as the way thing to do. It's > not. It was a hard decision to make, and any outcome was bound to face > significant criticism. I can appreciate the arguments made - they resonate > with the arguments made to and in the International team. > > It is true that designing a better overall policy would be good, but good > policy is rarely written based on a single case. I have yet to see a > realistic draft of what this could look like (it's been on my mind many > months now, and ice brought it up in some private conversations), in a way > that generalizes across the world. I generally don't like whataboutisms but > in this case it's unfortunately a very fair question. Whatever we come up > with, should be applied the same across countries and conflicts. > > This is not a drafting task i feel we can put on the Ukrainian team. But > if there are community members that wasn't too take on this challenge, i > would invite them to take some time to draft this and discuss with folks > whether that could be a way forward. I trust we'll see a separate thread > appear about this at some point > > Lodewijk > > > On Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 10:21 AM Philip Kopetzky > wrote: > >> Hi Manfred, >> >> meanwhile Wikimedia Ukraine has decided not to participate in the >> international contest. Doing nothing seems like the easiest thing to do, >> but long-term it damages the relationship with everyone involved, because >> there is no framework to orient themselves on. >> >> I'm also failing to imagine the international jury awarding any prizes to >> Russia, given the logistical complexity, so while they can participate, >> promoting Russian pictures (as Wikimedia Ukraine points out) would not go >> down well publicly. >> >> Best, >> Philip >> >> On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 at 23:28, Manfred Werner (WMAT) < >> manfred.wer...@wikimedia.at> wrote: >> >>> Hi Philip, >>> Finding a framework of rules seems to be necessary. As far as I know, >>> but I am relatively new to the team of WLM international, this is the first >>> time the question comes up if a country should be excluded from the >>> international competition. Personally I'd see that as a contradiction to >>> the basics of all the Wikimedia projects that aim to connect people from >>> all over the world and to share among all of us. As long as the organisers >>> are independent from political influence I see no reason to exclude them. >>> Until now it always was one of the goals to include as many countries as >>> possible. >>> >>> Regarding subnational (or also transnational) entities it very much >>> depends on who is organising the campaign there I think. It should at least >>> be a group of people. New problems may arise if a monument is "claimed" by >>> different groups I can imagine. On the other hand there might be situations >>> with
[Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Regarding the participation of Russia in Wiki Loves Monuments 2022
Hi all, As you may be aware, I'm no longer part of the International team. But as an advisor i followed the conversations about this closely. First of all i want to express my sincere appreciation for both the teams. Both in Russia and in Ukraine a competition like this is hard to organize, arriveert for different reasons. I appreciate the contributions to free knowledge that they managed to accomplish. The Ukrainian team was in an impossible situation to organize the competition in the first place and managed to anyway. I'm very proud of their work on this. It is eventually their choice whether they feel that they can submit images to the International round, and i can understand how they feel this is the right choice for them and their participants. I don't think it's fair to characterize this as the way thing to do. It's not. It was a hard decision to make, and any outcome was bound to face significant criticism. I can appreciate the arguments made - they resonate with the arguments made to and in the International team. It is true that designing a better overall policy would be good, but good policy is rarely written based on a single case. I have yet to see a realistic draft of what this could look like (it's been on my mind many months now, and ice brought it up in some private conversations), in a way that generalizes across the world. I generally don't like whataboutisms but in this case it's unfortunately a very fair question. Whatever we come up with, should be applied the same across countries and conflicts. This is not a drafting task i feel we can put on the Ukrainian team. But if there are community members that wasn't too take on this challenge, i would invite them to take some time to draft this and discuss with folks whether that could be a way forward. I trust we'll see a separate thread appear about this at some point Lodewijk On Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 10:21 AM Philip Kopetzky wrote: > Hi Manfred, > > meanwhile Wikimedia Ukraine has decided not to participate in the > international contest. Doing nothing seems like the easiest thing to do, > but long-term it damages the relationship with everyone involved, because > there is no framework to orient themselves on. > > I'm also failing to imagine the international jury awarding any prizes to > Russia, given the logistical complexity, so while they can participate, > promoting Russian pictures (as Wikimedia Ukraine points out) would not go > down well publicly. > > Best, > Philip > > On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 at 23:28, Manfred Werner (WMAT) < > manfred.wer...@wikimedia.at> wrote: > >> Hi Philip, >> Finding a framework of rules seems to be necessary. As far as I know, but >> I am relatively new to the team of WLM international, this is the first >> time the question comes up if a country should be excluded from the >> international competition. Personally I'd see that as a contradiction to >> the basics of all the Wikimedia projects that aim to connect people from >> all over the world and to share among all of us. As long as the organisers >> are independent from political influence I see no reason to exclude them. >> Until now it always was one of the goals to include as many countries as >> possible. >> >> Regarding subnational (or also transnational) entities it very much >> depends on who is organising the campaign there I think. It should at least >> be a group of people. New problems may arise if a monument is "claimed" by >> different groups I can imagine. On the other hand there might be situations >> with difficulties that are beyond our influence. Anyway we have to be >> careful (neutral and unpolitical) when trying to find regulations. >> >> Best, >> Manfred >> Am 13.12.2022 um 15:44 schrieb Philip Kopetzky: >> >> Betreff: >> [Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Regarding the participation of Russia in Wiki >> Loves Monuments 2022 >> >> Von: >> Philip Kopetzky >> >> Datum: >> 13.12.2022, 15:44 >> >> An: >> rodelarw...@gmail.com, Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition >> >> >> Hi Ruben, >> >> thank for giving your reasoning - I would urge you and the team though to >> establish some rules (since you mention the lack of rules around this >> issue) for future competitions, since the war in Ukraine is not the only >> conflict happening right now and will unfortunately not be the last one >> either. >> >> The same goes for establishing a logic around admitting countries and >> nations within certain countries. The 2030 strategy is quite clear on the >> fact that equity in participation and access to resources matters, and >> sticking to a country-by-country approach limits the viability of WLM for >> the architectural/cultural heritage of ethnic groups within a country (or >> is dependent on the benevolence of the majority group in that country) >> >> Best, >> Philip >> >> On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 at 21:03, Rodelar wrote: >> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> The Wiki Loves Monuments international team has been asked if >>> photographs from Russia
[Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Regarding the participation of Russia in Wiki Loves Monuments 2022
Hi Manfred, meanwhile Wikimedia Ukraine has decided not to participate in the international contest. Doing nothing seems like the easiest thing to do, but long-term it damages the relationship with everyone involved, because there is no framework to orient themselves on. I'm also failing to imagine the international jury awarding any prizes to Russia, given the logistical complexity, so while they can participate, promoting Russian pictures (as Wikimedia Ukraine points out) would not go down well publicly. Best, Philip On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 at 23:28, Manfred Werner (WMAT) < manfred.wer...@wikimedia.at> wrote: > Hi Philip, > Finding a framework of rules seems to be necessary. As far as I know, but > I am relatively new to the team of WLM international, this is the first > time the question comes up if a country should be excluded from the > international competition. Personally I'd see that as a contradiction to > the basics of all the Wikimedia projects that aim to connect people from > all over the world and to share among all of us. As long as the organisers > are independent from political influence I see no reason to exclude them. > Until now it always was one of the goals to include as many countries as > possible. > > Regarding subnational (or also transnational) entities it very much > depends on who is organising the campaign there I think. It should at least > be a group of people. New problems may arise if a monument is "claimed" by > different groups I can imagine. On the other hand there might be situations > with difficulties that are beyond our influence. Anyway we have to be > careful (neutral and unpolitical) when trying to find regulations. > > Best, > Manfred > Am 13.12.2022 um 15:44 schrieb Philip Kopetzky: > > Betreff: > [Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Regarding the participation of Russia in Wiki > Loves Monuments 2022 > > Von: > Philip Kopetzky > > Datum: > 13.12.2022, 15:44 > > An: > rodelarw...@gmail.com, Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition > > > Hi Ruben, > > thank for giving your reasoning - I would urge you and the team though to > establish some rules (since you mention the lack of rules around this > issue) for future competitions, since the war in Ukraine is not the only > conflict happening right now and will unfortunately not be the last one > either. > > The same goes for establishing a logic around admitting countries and > nations within certain countries. The 2030 strategy is quite clear on the > fact that equity in participation and access to resources matters, and > sticking to a country-by-country approach limits the viability of WLM for > the architectural/cultural heritage of ethnic groups within a country (or > is dependent on the benevolence of the majority group in that country) > > Best, > Philip > > On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 at 21:03, Rodelar wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> The Wiki Loves Monuments international team has been asked if photographs >> from Russia should be allowed or excluded from participating in this year's >> international contest. We have been in contact with the organising teams of >> Wiki Loves Monuments from Ukraine and from Russia to discuss this and to >> find a solution. >> >> We greatly appreciate that the team from Ukraine has organized the local >> edition of the competition while there is war in their country! We >> understand that there are reservations against seeing images from Ukraine >> and Russia presented side by side in the galleries of nominated or winning >> pictures. >> >> The volunteer team organising Wiki Loves Monuments Russia emphasizes to >> have no ties to the Russian government or the Russian Wikimedia affiliate. >> They are submitting the 10 finalist images to the international final round >> of Wiki Loves Monuments 2022, but the occupied areas, including Crimea and >> Sevastopol, have been excluded from the Wiki Loves monuments campaign. >> Also, in Russia there is no freedom of panorama for works of art. This >> excludes, in fact, any images of monuments and statues erected since World >> War II, and which for example glorify the war, from being legally uploaded >> to Wikimedia Commons. >> >> If images from Russia are excluded because of the war in Ukraine, this >> could, without being based on a rule for the competition, set a precedent >> for other territories where there is war around the world. Rules would have >> to found, before deciding case by case, if a country should not be allowed >> to send its nominations to Wiki Loves Monuments international. >> >> With these considerations in mind, the WLM organising team does not see a >> reason to exclude the submission of Russian finalists images to the >> international final round. >> >> On behalf of the WLM 2022 organising team, >> >> Rubén Ojeda >> >> International jury coordinator, Wiki Loves Monuments 2022 >> ___ >> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list >> To unsubscribe send an email to >>
[Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Regarding the participation of Russia in Wiki Loves Monuments 2022
Hi, At the same time, if we highlight the cultural heritage of Russia, we are > not just highlighting the volunteer work but Russia's national achievements > and imperialism. The participation can be exploited as part of Russian > propaganda even if the organizers or Wikimedia movement doesn't mean it so. > Let us find the red line then about when to bar volunteers from a country to participate in WLM. Shall we exclude the USA which has invaded middle eastern countries many times in the past and still has strong forces there or any NATO countries which left Afghanistan giving it back to the Taliban who had destroyed the world heritage site of Bamiyan in the past? Shall we exclude China because of its policy towards Taiwan or Tibet or shall we exclude Turkiye because of its engagement with the Kurds and Syrians in the recent past or Saudi Arabia because of the bombardments in Yemen? Shall we exclude both Israel and Palestine because of what is happening there? Shall we exclude some of the African countries because of their civil wars which have destroyed the livelihoods of many people there? Or shall we exclude all the past colonial nations of Europe like Britain, France, Nederlands, Belgium, Spain, Germany, Denmark, Italy etc. which have committed horrible atrocities to more than half of the world and looted their culture and heritage to store in their museums and still not paid reparation or even asked for forgiveness? Or shall we exclude the countries participating in the two World Wars or countries with nuclear warheads? There are allies on all sides, shall we exclude them too? I guess, if we start excluding, there will be almost no countries in the world left to participate in WLM. We all are strongly against any war and invasion and we all have deep empathy towards the people of Ukraine for their hardships in these difficult times, but we also have to be empathetic to other parts of the world which are facing hardships from wars from the present or from the past and not forget about them or their lost culture. WLM is a photographic competition to preserve built heritage from around the world digitally, let's keep it that way and not make it a forum for geopolitical debates. We need not want to open up a Pandora's box and fight with each other because our governments are doing so. Regards, Bodhisattwa On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 at 11:43, Kimmo Virtanen wrote: > Geopolitical differences and conflicts among governments should never be a >> factor to sanction and obstruct volunteer activities from those nations. We >> need to remind ourselves that the government and the Wikimedia volunteers >> or affiliates of a country are different entities and the Wikimedia >> communities cannot be held responsible for the action of their governments. >> Russian heritage photographers have nothing to do with the Ukraine war and >> they have equal rights to have their photographs compete and judged like >> the other participating countries. > > > Interpretation is more complex. Russia is destroying Ukraine's landmarks > and cultural heritage as part of its methods to wage war. > > For example, they have been burning the archives of the Stalin era human > rights crimes. Another highly problematic thing is that Russia is > systematically stealing cultural heritage and other properties from the > areas which they have occupied. For example, they stole scientific > equipment from Tšernobyl or art from the museums. > > At the same time, if we highlight the cultural heritage of Russia, we are > not just highlighting the volunteer work but Russia's national achievements > and imperialism. The participation can be exploited as part of Russian > propaganda even if the organizers or Wikimedia movement doesn't mean it so. > > Br, > -- Kimmo Virtanen, Zache (organizer of WLM Finland) > > > On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 8:46 PM Bodhisattwa > wrote: > >> Hi Rubén, >> >> I find the decision of WLM international team completely reasonable to >> not exclude Russian photographs from the competition. >> >> Geopolitical differences and conflicts among governments should never be >> a factor to sanction and obstruct volunteer activities from those nations. >> We need to remind ourselves that the government and the Wikimedia >> volunteers or affiliates of a country are different entities and the >> Wikimedia communities cannot be held responsible for the action of their >> governments. Russian heritage photographers have nothing to do with the >> Ukraine war and they have equal rights to have their photographs compete >> and judged like the other participating countries. >> >> Also, WLM is not only a photography competiton, it's a way to digitally >> preserve heritage. Digital conversation has inverse relationship with >> destruction of war. >> >> Apart from Ukraine, there are conflicts, invasions and wars happening in >> the Middle East, Africa, Asia Pacific and other regions. There had been >> many in the past and surely there will be more
[Wiki Loves Monuments] Re: Regarding the participation of Russia in Wiki Loves Monuments 2022
There are dozens of ongoing wars in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts Several of the countries participating in WLM 2022 are involved in an armed conflict connected to one of the major global emergencies per UNHCR. https://www.unhcr.org/emergencies.html UNESCO has some initiatives for some areas where wars have somewhat subsided, like Iraq, but I couldn't quickly find systematic data about all ongoing conflicts. https://www.unesco.org/en/revive-mosul http://uis.unesco.org/en/topic/sustainable-development-goal-11-4 I doubt it's wise or feasible to task the WLM team (or any group of people inside Wikimedia really) with deciding whether one war is worse than another, who is responsible for what, at what point responsibility warrants punishment on the citizens of that country etc. It's also probably hard to find any country which is not currently involved in the violent destruction of cultural heritage somewhere in the world. (EU countries would probably be the first to be excluded, given all we've done around the world. Colonialism and its effects are still alive and well.) A more feasible objective might be to draw some rules about direct involvement of WLM activities and resources in areas under conflict, if we don't have any yet. It would be embarrassing if a photo from an occupied/contested area won the contest run from the "wrong" country, or worse if grants were used to somewhat fund an occupation. These are things we can actually measure and change. Best, Federico ___ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list To unsubscribe send an email to wikilovesmonuments-le...@lists.wikimedia.org http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
