Re: [Wikimedia-l] RE : Moving the technical infrastructure out of the US
Me again Antoine, I remembered this partnership between WMF and Orange, the French telecom operator. https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Press_releases/Orange_and_Wikimedia_announce_partnership_April_2009/en It seems to me to remember that during this partnership that the database was replicated on Orange's servers in read mode, but I'm not on that date a bit and my memory is failing me can be asked for confirmation from Brion Vibber . If this is the case, Orange had taken the risk of hosting the data and Orange was never bothered too :) The noticeable difference is that Orange offered money not a resilient solution that the Criann is capable of accommodating. Regards, Pascal Le 2020-10-01 22:57, Pascal Martin a écrit : Good evening Antoine, France is a country full of laws which are not respected, it is the old continent that you want :) Ex: it was not until 2013 that women could wear pants in Paris, and I assure you that women wore pants before that date. https://www.liberation.fr/france/2013/02/04/le-pantalon-n-est-plus-interdit-pour-les-parisiennes_879145 More seriously and from my personal experience for which for more than 12 years the data of all the projects of the WMF and in all the languages as well as the content of the source links are hosted at Criann, the Criann and I even have never had any problem in court. Regarding confidentiality, my servers are locked in a room which is also locked; only authorized persons can physically access the server rooms which are partitioned. From my point of view, I think the risk is to be measured by the Criann, because we are talking about making Wikipedia resilient, if the Criann accepts the risk apart from controversies there will be only that. Even so, I think it is for the wikipedia community to rule on this point, even if the mandate of the WMF is to host Wikipedia, it does not say that the community is not positioning itself for a less centralized system. than today. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Community_Wishlist_Survey And to change the law in France, I think that given that the Criann depends on the President of the Region: Maybe le criann can try giving a call to french president of the region normandie and see whether some arrangement can be made: -] De : Antoine Musso Envoyé le :jeudi 1 octobre 2020 18:17 À : Wikimedia Mailing List; Pascal Martin Objet :Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moving the technical infrastructure out of the US On 30/09/2020 13:55, Pascal Martin wrote: Hi all, Maybe one way in France : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renater I could contact them if it s possible, and more particularly the criann he would only charge for electricity. At the same time this allows to be able to save energy for users who consult wikipedia in Europe. https://www.criann.fr/ Hello, Wikimedia has caches servers located in Amsterdam in the same facility of AMSIX which is one of the largest internet exchange point in Europe. The caches thus have a very good connectivity with all the major internet service provider in Europe (and beyond). France several exchange points (France-IX, PARIX, SFINX which is operated by renater) and possibly others. But to my knowledge none offer the same amount of connectivity as AMSIX. Beside privacy, hosting would have to obey to french laws and the copyright laws are entirely different than the one in the USA. On top of my mind: there is no such thing as "fair use" and no "freedom of panorama". Surely laws can be changed by intense lobbying and could I see the use case for France to relax some copyrights laws to better accommodate hosting. That could potentially attract a wide range of content that are seeking a safe copyright heaven. But I don't see it happening anytime soon and that would require a lot of lobbying by a wide range of organizations beside just Wikimedia. Maybe WMF CEO can try giving a call to french president and see whether some arrangement can be made :-] -- Cordialement Pascal Martin 06 13 89 77 32 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
[Wikimedia-l] RE : Moving the technical infrastructure out of the US
Good evening Antoine, France is a country full of laws which are not respected, it is the old continent that you want :) Ex: it was not until 2013 that women could wear pants in Paris, and I assure you that women wore pants before that date. https://www.liberation.fr/france/2013/02/04/le-pantalon-n-est-plus-interdit-pour-les-parisiennes_879145 More seriously and from my personal experience for which for more than 12 years the data of all the projects of the WMF and in all the languages as well as the content of the source links are hosted at Criann, the Criann and I even have never had any problem in court. Regarding confidentiality, my servers are locked in a room which is also locked; only authorized persons can physically access the server rooms which are partitioned. From my point of view, I think the risk is to be measured by the Criann, because we are talking about making Wikipedia resilient, if the Criann accepts the risk apart from controversies there will be only that. Even so, I think it is for the wikipedia community to rule on this point, even if the mandate of the WMF is to host Wikipedia, it does not say that the community is not positioning itself for a less centralized system. than today. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Community_Wishlist_Survey And to change the law in France, I think that given that the Criann depends on the President of the Region: Maybe le criann can try giving a call to french president of the region normandie and see whether some arrangement can be made: -] De : Antoine Musso Envoyé le :jeudi 1 octobre 2020 18:17 À : Wikimedia Mailing List; Pascal Martin Objet :Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moving the technical infrastructure out of the US On 30/09/2020 13:55, Pascal Martin wrote: > Hi all, > Maybe one way in France : > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renater > I could contact them if it s possible, and more particularly the criann > he would only charge for electricity. > At the same time this allows to be able to save energy for users who > consult wikipedia in Europe. > > https://www.criann.fr/ Hello, Wikimedia has caches servers located in Amsterdam in the same facility of AMSIX which is one of the largest internet exchange point in Europe. The caches thus have a very good connectivity with all the major internet service provider in Europe (and beyond). France several exchange points (France-IX, PARIX, SFINX which is operated by renater) and possibly others. But to my knowledge none offer the same amount of connectivity as AMSIX. Beside privacy, hosting would have to obey to french laws and the copyright laws are entirely different than the one in the USA. On top of my mind: there is no such thing as "fair use" and no "freedom of panorama". Surely laws can be changed by intense lobbying and could I see the use case for France to relax some copyrights laws to better accommodate hosting. That could potentially attract a wide range of content that are seeking a safe copyright heaven. But I don't see it happening anytime soon and that would require a lot of lobbying by a wide range of organizations beside just Wikimedia. Maybe WMF CEO can try giving a call to french president and see whether some arrangement can be made :-] -- Antoine "hashar" Musso ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moving the technical infrastructure out of the US
Hi all, Maybe one way in France : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renater I could contact them if it s possible, and more particularly the criann he would only charge for electricity. At the same time this allows to be able to save energy for users who consult wikipedia in Europe. https://www.criann.fr/ Le 2020-09-30 13:12, Gereon Kalkuhl a écrit : Hi all, as Dimi said, there had been some discussions about this topic over the years. Unfortunately they were not taken for serious, for example https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Move_the_WMF_and_Servers_to_Iceland . And there is not only the political issue, there are environmental concerns as well. Earthquakes and fires in California, Hurricanes in the South. Cheers, Gereon Am 30.09.2020 um 11:44 schrieb Dimitar Parvanov Dimitrov: Hi all, We have had discussions on this with many Wikimedians over the years, but frankly, the issue never seemed pressing enough to pursue more seriously. Some points made that I remember where: - Perhaps it is enough to just have back-up servers in another jurisdictions that could kick-in and whose capacity could quickly be upgraded in case of need. - Nordic jurisdictions like Iceland and Norway frequently came up with the arguments: stable political systems, solid digital rights track records, a climate that helps save energy on cooling servers & availability of hydropower (i.e. environmental benefits). I think such a move would require serious studies and long, community-wide debates. I can not assess how urgent it is. But then again, waiting until it is a real issue is probably not a great idea. Cheers, Dimi На ср, 30.09.2020 г. в 11:35 Dan Garry (Deskana) написа: On Wed, 30 Sep 2020 at 09:49, Erik Moeller wrote: I hope that some preliminary contingency plans exist or are being developed, and I'm sure that the movement-wide debate will widen if the US continues its downward slide into authoritarianism. I agree with Erik. Even under the Obama administration, there were threats to the existence of the movement, such as SOPA [1 [1]] which lead to a blackout [2]. One can extrapolate from current events that these threats could well get larger and more frequent, rather than smaller and less frequent, should someone in the US Government decide to focus their attention on attacking Wikipedia and free knowledge. It would be prudent to create a contingency plan which includes an exploration of other options for a location of operation for the Wikimedia Foundation and/or its servers, with their advantages and disadvantages. I personally wouldn't necessarily advocate for making the plan public; that would be ideal, but I'd be comforted merely to know it exists. On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 at 23:36, Joseph Seddon wrote: I believe options are going to be explored for sustainability but right now legally speaking the US is the best jurisdiction for hosting us now and the foreseeable future. I agree with this too. For now, the United States remains the best place for the organisation to operate out of, and a move should not be actively considered. Dan [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_SOPA_and_PIPA#Wikimedia_community ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> -- Cordialement Pascal Martin 06 13 89 77 32 Links: -- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
[Wikimedia-l] RE : Internet Archive BOT
Good evening Lodewijk, I completely agree with you on the work done by this robot but I had warned that it was a dead end near Danny Horn employee of the WMF who was piloting the project for the WMF: - energy consuming: is this the role of the WMF to host a robot that would pollute the WEB to detect 404 errors, - modify the articles: is it the role of the WMF to host a robot which allows the articles to be edited at the risk of being considered contributors, - hosting of archives: it is the role of the WMF to provide an exclusive hosting solution for Internet Archive. On these three points I expressed myself on my Wikipedia discussion page and we are awaiting the return of the bot trainer which will remain unanswered. The solution which is in place via the Internet Archive robot does not in any way solve the problems of the modifications of sources which are numerous and happen frequently to have a link on an article with high visibility on Wikipedia. The solution I have proposed is perennial, non-exclusive, non-polluting, the wikipeda community in hand, does not deteriorate Wikipedia articles because the solution is there but ignored by Wikimedia authorities to the detriment of the foundations of the foundation. In short, I have only one employee and I am going to leave his mission, because the time we lost working for Internet Archive has never been taken into account and therefore the time spent trying to collaborate has resulted in degrading our solution. The future will prove me right, I am not looking for fortune otherwise I will have sold the positions of Linterweb, which in the good old days managed the Kiwix project and the external links archives project. As a result, we are able to provide archives in Zeno archive formats that can be used by offline solutions in the long term: https://blog.wikiwix.com/2009/12/07/okawix-et-openzim/ So what do I do next week is what I launch my only employee on the recovery of archives on all the languages of Wikipedia we have one configuration to change and Wikipedia has a backup solution for external links hosted in Europe in a DataCenter managed by European funds. These wars of influence are wearing out for me and I did not want to arm myself to fight against it, my daughter will remember forever that Linterweb will have been the archiver of the external links of French Wikipedia for only 30 euros of energy per month, small step for Linterweb but big step for the ecological transition which awaits us. Regards, "If I don't have a bad deal to bite into, I invent one and after having liquidated it, give up the credit to someone else, so I can continue to be me- same, that is, no one. It's clever. " My name is Nobody. De : effe iets anders Envoyé le :mercredi 24 juin 2020 07:16 À : Wikimedia Mailing List Objet :Re: [Wikimedia-l] Internet Archive BOT Hi Pascal, all, this is being discussed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cyberpower678 THe last response was June 16, and it seems to focus on geo-blocking as the cause for blacklisting (in case anyone feels called to help out the developer). This bot performs incredible work and I hope it gets fixed soon! Best, Lodewijk On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 5:04 AM Pascal Martin wrote: > HI, > > My native language is French, automatic translation into English. > This message follows the numerous detection of false 404 links by the > Internet Archive robot because it is blacklisted on a lot of servers. Small > details concerning the archiving service of Wikiwix ( > https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:De_kroeg#Internet_Archive_Bot ) > It is based solely on this Javascript to be implemented since 2008 in > French Wikipedia: > https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Gadget-ArchiveLinks.js > The advantage of this solution makes it possible to add other archiving > sources, and does not modify the content of Wikipedia articles. > New links are detected by 3 different means: > • Annual recovery: https://dumps.wikimedia.org/backup-index.html, > • Recovery on IRC and on the WEB of Recents Changes. > And we also recommend clicking on the archive link as soon as the source > is added by a contributor, this immediately generates storage of the link > and allows you to test the rendering of the archived page. > In addition to fighting 404 errors, this solution also offers the > advantage of protecting against changes in content that may appear in the > pages to be archived. > Wikiwix strictly respects copyright, archiving is only done with the > author's approval using the noarchive tag. > Since 2015, I have been alerting about the deployment of the IA robot: > 2015: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2015/Bots_and_gadgets: > the bot solution with modification of the template cache is currently > exclusive to WayBackMachine, 2017: > https://fr.wikipedia.or
[Wikimedia-l] Internet Archive BOT
HI, My native language is French, automatic translation into English. This message follows the numerous detection of false 404 links by the Internet Archive robot because it is blacklisted on a lot of servers. Small details concerning the archiving service of Wikiwix ( https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:De_kroeg#Internet_Archive_Bot ) It is based solely on this Javascript to be implemented since 2008 in French Wikipedia: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Gadget-ArchiveLinks.js The advantage of this solution makes it possible to add other archiving sources, and does not modify the content of Wikipedia articles. New links are detected by 3 different means: • Annual recovery: https://dumps.wikimedia.org/backup-index.html, • Recovery on IRC and on the WEB of Recents Changes. And we also recommend clicking on the archive link as soon as the source is added by a contributor, this immediately generates storage of the link and allows you to test the rendering of the archived page. In addition to fighting 404 errors, this solution also offers the advantage of protecting against changes in content that may appear in the pages to be archived. Wikiwix strictly respects copyright, archiving is only done with the author's approval using the noarchive tag. Since 2015, I have been alerting about the deployment of the IA robot: 2015: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2015/Bots_and_gadgets: the bot solution with modification of the template cache is currently exclusive to WayBackMachine, 2017: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion_user:Pmartin#I_left_you_a_message! : attempted collaboration abort by the bot trainer and bot stopped following numerous false detections on page 404. The role of IABOT is to detect the links present in Wikipedia which are in errors 404, to find an archive in priority on the WayBack Machine, and to modify the articles to replace the dead link there. This process is not good because IABOT only allows one archive url to be stored on all the languages, which greatly favors the Wayback Machine, to the detriment of the different versions of the page. While the template should link to a page that would list all of the possible archives for a 404 page. A week has been planned for the end of July 2020 to resolve the few stabilization problems that Wikiwix currently encounters, linked to the new solution which consumes only 30 euros of electricity per month, we can also support this week for a deployment of the solution on the NL part of Wikipedia. Could someone stop this bots, otherwise the false detection of links will become contagious for all projects? Pascal Martin ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
