Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns about WMF's "Manager of Community Development" job posting

[Pine W]

orts that source significant volumes of high
> > quality content do good work. The value of edit-a-thons, "management
> > effort" dedicated to organizing organizations and paying staff and all
> that
> > entails and other soft efforts is less well established. I don't think
> the
> > creation of a management layer position over existing staff and work at
> the
> > WMF is a great moment to consider the pros and cons of these efforts,
> > however, whether at the WMF or affiliates. That opportunity is the
> strategy
> > development process.
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 5:58 PM Pine W  wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Ad,
> > >
> > > I agree that WMF support for training can be beneficial (although,
> given
> > > the choice, I would prefer non-WMF funding sources in order to minimize
> > > conflicts of interest between community/affiliate goals and WMF).
> > However,
> > > the more firmly that WMF tries to elevate itself as the manager of the
> > > wikiverse and to tell community members what to do, the more strongly I
> > > object. Community autonomy should be respected, and WMF's purpose in
> the
> > > wikiverse is to offer support rather than to assert centralized
> > management.
> > >
> > > I have been thinking about these issues for a few days. I think that
> WMF
> > > providing technical support and training, such as a document regarding
> > "How
> > > to create a citation", is much safer than non-technical training, such
> as
> > > "How to apply notability guidelines" which may refer to policies and
> > > practices that are almost exclusively established by community
> consensus
> > > instead of WMF edict.
> > >
> > > Regarding WMF involvement in community health, I think that there are
> > ways
> > > that WMF can be supportive without placing itself in control or
> asserting
> > > leadership. For example, WMF can usefully and safely improve technical
> > > tools for sockpuppet detection, and WMF can research the prevalance of
> > > incivility on wikis over time, and WMF can research the effectiveness
> of
> > > interventions that the community decides to implement.
> > >
> > > Pine
> > > ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  Original message From: Ad Huikeshoven <
> > a...@huikeshoven.org>
> > > Date: 7/15/18  12:19 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: Wikimedia Mailing List <
> > > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns
> > > about WMF's "Manager of Community
> > >   Development" job posting
> > > Dear friends,
> > >
> > > Pine wrote "The idea of WMF placing itself in the position of managing
> > > community development is problematic."
> > > I disagree with Pine. It has been recognized in the past that community
> > is
> > > the key asset in the movement. I do belief that it is a fiduciary duty
> to
> > > manage your key asset wisely and responsively. Editing / contributing
> to
> > > Wikimedia projects has a radically decentralized nature. Your concern
> > > regards paying due respect to that radically decentralized nature.
> > > Community health has been or is an issue for example. I am very glad
> > there
> > > is going to be a person leading a team of professionals to provide
> > guidance
> > > to volunteer leaders. And the person will have a challenge to gain
> trust
> > of
> > > the community, and to build trust within the communities.
> > >
> > > Have a nice weekend,
> > >
> > > Ad
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns about WMF's "Manager of Community Development" job posting

[Maggie Dennis]

Hi, all.

I wanted to drop a few more thoughts as the hiring manager of the
particular role under discussion and the interim chief of CE.

First, as noted, the full scope of this role will be defined in conjunction
with the community consultation in strategy phase 2. There is a track for
Capacity Building in which the Foundation is an active participant, along
with many others. There is no plan to centralize all activities related to
Community Development within the Foundation. I personally wouldn't consider
that a good idea - we have different experiences and expertise and work
best when we work together. And there is plenty to be done. The Foundation
is already and has long been quite active in this area. In addition to
facilitating peer-to-peer development, Foundation staff have been directly
taking a role in training for years, from many specific sessions at
Learning Days <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Learning_Day_events>
to the dedicated Community Capacity Development program <
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Capacity_Development> and many
other points between.

While I’m here, I’ll note that we knew that this particular job was going
to happen when we were writing the annual plan in January and February, and
hence we included it by name in our plan, but CE is organizing our
structures in ways intended to help us take on the new work necessary to
reach our strategic direction, while continuing to provide the core support
and services to which we are already committed. This will result in more
roles being developed under executive review and in accordance with Board
guidance for Foundation staffing. I imagine everyone here is familiar with
the “Work With Us” page at <
https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Work_with_us>. CE’s plans for work
done by these roles will be developed in conjunction with the movement
strategy, just as the plan for this role will be.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Maggie


On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 6:19 PM Nathan  wrote:

> I agree with Ad and keyed on the same objection when reading Pine's
> complaint. The WMF has been the primary organization responsible for
> developing the community since the inception of the Wikimedia movement.
> That isn't changed by the titles of any particular position. To the extent
> that conflicts of interest develop between the WMF and affiliates, I
> question the objectives of the affiliates. Affiliates that fund Wikidata,
> GLAM projects and other efforts that source significant volumes of high
> quality content do good work. The value of edit-a-thons, "management
> effort" dedicated to organizing organizations and paying staff and all that
> entails and other soft efforts is less well established. I don't think the
> creation of a management layer position over existing staff and work at the
> WMF is a great moment to consider the pros and cons of these efforts,
> however, whether at the WMF or affiliates. That opportunity is the strategy
> development process.
>
> On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 5:58 PM Pine W  wrote:
>
> > Hi Ad,
> >
> > I agree that WMF support for training can be beneficial (although, given
> > the choice, I would prefer non-WMF funding sources in order to minimize
> > conflicts of interest between community/affiliate goals and WMF).
> However,
> > the more firmly that WMF tries to elevate itself as the manager of the
> > wikiverse and to tell community members what to do, the more strongly I
> > object. Community autonomy should be respected, and WMF's purpose in the
> > wikiverse is to offer support rather than to assert centralized
> management.
> >
> > I have been thinking about these issues for a few days. I think that WMF
> > providing technical support and training, such as a document regarding
> "How
> > to create a citation", is much safer than non-technical training, such as
> > "How to apply notability guidelines" which may refer to policies and
> > practices that are almost exclusively established by community consensus
> > instead of WMF edict.
> >
> > Regarding WMF involvement in community health, I think that there are
> ways
> > that WMF can be supportive without placing itself in control or asserting
> > leadership. For example, WMF can usefully and safely improve technical
> > tools for sockpuppet detection, and WMF can research the prevalance of
> > incivility on wikis over time, and WMF can research the effectiveness of
> > interventions that the community decides to implement.
> >
> > Pine
> > ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  Original message From: Ad Huikeshoven <
> a...@huikeshoven.org>
> > Date: 7/15/18  12:19 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: Wikimedia

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns about WMF's "Manager of Community Development" job posting

[Nathan]

I agree with Ad and keyed on the same objection when reading Pine's
complaint. The WMF has been the primary organization responsible for
developing the community since the inception of the Wikimedia movement.
That isn't changed by the titles of any particular position. To the extent
that conflicts of interest develop between the WMF and affiliates, I
question the objectives of the affiliates. Affiliates that fund Wikidata,
GLAM projects and other efforts that source significant volumes of high
quality content do good work. The value of edit-a-thons, "management
effort" dedicated to organizing organizations and paying staff and all that
entails and other soft efforts is less well established. I don't think the
creation of a management layer position over existing staff and work at the
WMF is a great moment to consider the pros and cons of these efforts,
however, whether at the WMF or affiliates. That opportunity is the strategy
development process.

On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 5:58 PM Pine W  wrote:

> Hi Ad,
>
> I agree that WMF support for training can be beneficial (although, given
> the choice, I would prefer non-WMF funding sources in order to minimize
> conflicts of interest between community/affiliate goals and WMF). However,
> the more firmly that WMF tries to elevate itself as the manager of the
> wikiverse and to tell community members what to do, the more strongly I
> object. Community autonomy should be respected, and WMF's purpose in the
> wikiverse is to offer support rather than to assert centralized management.
>
> I have been thinking about these issues for a few days. I think that WMF
> providing technical support and training, such as a document regarding "How
> to create a citation", is much safer than non-technical training, such as
> "How to apply notability guidelines" which may refer to policies and
> practices that are almost exclusively established by community consensus
> instead of WMF edict.
>
> Regarding WMF involvement in community health, I think that there are ways
> that WMF can be supportive without placing itself in control or asserting
> leadership. For example, WMF can usefully and safely improve technical
> tools for sockpuppet detection, and WMF can research the prevalance of
> incivility on wikis over time, and WMF can research the effectiveness of
> interventions that the community decides to implement.
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
>
>
>
>
>  Original message From: Ad Huikeshoven 
> Date: 7/15/18  12:19 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: Wikimedia Mailing List <
> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns
> about WMF's "Manager of Community
>   Development" job posting
> Dear friends,
>
> Pine wrote "The idea of WMF placing itself in the position of managing
> community development is problematic."
> I disagree with Pine. It has been recognized in the past that community is
> the key asset in the movement. I do belief that it is a fiduciary duty to
> manage your key asset wisely and responsively. Editing / contributing to
> Wikimedia projects has a radically decentralized nature. Your concern
> regards paying due respect to that radically decentralized nature.
> Community health has been or is an issue for example. I am very glad there
> is going to be a person leading a team of professionals to provide guidance
> to volunteer leaders. And the person will have a challenge to gain trust of
> the community, and to build trust within the communities.
>
> Have a nice weekend,
>
> Ad
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns about WMF's "Manager of Community Development" job posting

[Pine W]

Rob, I think that you and I are asking similar questions. Hopefully, WMF will 
be able to explain how this position as currently described will exist in 
harmony with the current distributed nature of training programs, instead of 
being a step on the way to internalizing programs in WMF and building up a 
central staff to develop and run these programs. If WMF wants to fund more work 
in this area, which I think could be beneficial, then I think that the better 
way to go would be to enhance support for affiliates and community members in 
leading training development, perhaps by running a grant campaign with training 
as a theme.

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
 Original message From: Robert Fernandez 
 Date: 7/15/18  8:44 AM  (GMT-08:00) To: Wikimedia 
Mailing List  Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] 
Concerns about WMF's "Manager of Community
  Development" job posting 
On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 2:00 AM, Pine W  wrote:

> 1. It sounds like WMF intends to centralize the training and leadership 
> development work that in recent years has largely been done by affiliates and 
> grantees, meaning that affiliates should probably expect budget cuts, and 
> individual grants that have been used for outreach work would also probably 
> be reduced as WMF moves to take over this type of work.

My chapter is unaware of any of this type of work that we do that will
be taken over by the Foundation and we don't believe that a single
paid position at the Foundation will somehow lead to the elimination
of any of our many events or programs in these areas.  We welcome more
support from the Foundation in these areas.  Could you provide a
specific example of a program by any chapter that will be absorbed
into this position?

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns about WMF's "Manager of Community Development" job posting

[Ad Huikeshoven]

Dear friends,

Pine wrote "The idea of WMF placing itself in the position of managing
community development is problematic."
I disagree with Pine. It has been recognized in the past that community is
the key asset in the movement. I do belief that it is a fiduciary duty to
manage your key asset wisely and responsively. Editing / contributing to
Wikimedia projects has a radically decentralized nature. Your concern
regards paying due respect to that radically decentralized nature.
Community health has been or is an issue for example. I am very glad there
is going to be a person leading a team of professionals to provide guidance
to volunteer leaders. And the person will have a challenge to gain trust of
the community, and to build trust within the communities.

Have a nice weekend,

Ad
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns about WMF's "Manager of Community Development" job posting

[Robert Fernandez]

On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 2:00 AM, Pine W  wrote:

> 1. It sounds like WMF intends to centralize the training and leadership 
> development work that in recent years has largely been done by affiliates and 
> grantees, meaning that affiliates should probably expect budget cuts, and 
> individual grants that have been used for outreach work would also probably 
> be reduced as WMF moves to take over this type of work.

My chapter is unaware of any of this type of work that we do that will
be taken over by the Foundation and we don't believe that a single
paid position at the Foundation will somehow lead to the elimination
of any of our many events or programs in these areas.  We welcome more
support from the Foundation in these areas.  Could you provide a
specific example of a program by any chapter that will be absorbed
into this position?

___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns about WMF's "Manager of Community Development" job posting

[Pine W]

Hi Maggie,

Thank you for getting back to me. I would have been understanding if the 
response came next week, so thanks for the quickness.


I have some additional thoughts to which I hope that you can reply next week.


1. It sounds like WMF intends to centralize the training and leadership 
development work that in recent years has largely been done by affiliates and 
grantees, meaning that affiliates should probably expect budget cuts, and 
individual grants that have been used for outreach work would also probably be 
reduced as WMF moves to take over this type of work. Is that the plan, and if 
so, why? It seems to me that the wikiverse is well served by having wide 
diversity in training initiatives that are customized to individual languages 
and projects. I do not know what would be gained by centralizing these 
functions. I could understand WMF supporting research about effective 
practices, and supporting peer-to-peer communications among community members 
and affiliates regarding effective practices, but moving toward centralizing 
training and leadership development seems like it would do more harm than good.


2. In addition to the practical considerations that I mention above, for 
political and wikilegal reasons I am concerned about the idea of WMF 
centralizing community development work under itself. I am generally opposed to 
the idea that WMF should directly train community members, particularly on 
leadership subjects. I am aware that WMF provides financial support for 
training that affiliates and grantees do, and given the scarcity of non-WMF 
funding sources for this type of work I see little choice but to accept WMF 
financial support for this work. However, given the differences in culture, 
values, priorities, motivations, and ways of working between the WMF and the 
community, and WMF's previous demonstrations of its willingness to grab power 
from the community, I believe that WMF increasing the centralization of 
community development work under itself is inappropriate and unwise.


Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )


 Original message From: Maggie Dennis  
Date: 7/13/18  2:04 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
 Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns about 
WMF's "Manager of Community
  Development" job posting 
Hi, Pine.

Sorry for my brevity. It's rather late on Friday, and I'd like to give you
a response. This position is output 1.2 of the CE "Strategy" program
discussed on Meta in Community Engagement's plan here
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Engagement/Annual_Plan_2018-2019#Program_Name:_Strategy>.
This role consolidates some of the work that is currently distributed in
Community Resources and some that is currently being done in Learning &
Evaluation and also plays a part in the Movement Organizers program. The
full scope of what this team is and what they do will be determined in
conjunction with phase 2 of strategy and subsequent Foundation plans. The
role is designated as "Manager" as they will have staff for whom they are
responsible, just as other manager positions in the Foundation do.

Best regards,

Maggie




On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 4:31 PM Pine W  wrote:

> Hello WMF folks,
>
> I have some concerns about this job posting:
> https://boards.greenhouse.io/wikimedia/jobs/1239209
>
> In some ways I appreciate that WMF wants to invest more money and time in
> identifying and developing potential volunteer leaders. However, I also
> have some concerns.
>
> * This role appears to have multiple redundancies with efforts that are
> already being done, or are planned to be done, in areas of WMF such as
> GLAM, Community Resources, and Audiences, plus activities that are
> undertaken by affiliates and grantees, so I wonder whether this position is
> adding unnecessary overhead expense and/or attempting to take over work
> that is already being done by community members. Can you clarify what value
> this position is adding, and whether WMF intends to take over scopes of
> work that are currently generally done by affiliates and grantees?
>
> * Was this position described in the 2018-2019 WMF Annual Plan? I was not
> able to find this position, or a scope of work that seemed to fit this
> position, in the Community Engagement Annual Plan. I was able to find a
> statement that talked about researching the needs of community organizers
> (which I think is a good idea!), but this position seems to have multiple
> objectives that are outside of that scope of work. Where is this specific
> position, or its specific scope of work, articulated in the Annual Plan for
> Community Engagement?
>
> * I have a more general concern. The idea of WMF placing itself in the
> position of managing community development is problematic. I generally
> would not want community organizers to learn directly from WMF h

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns about WMF's "Manager of Community Development" job posting

[Maggie Dennis]

Hi, Pine.

Sorry for my brevity. It's rather late on Friday, and I'd like to give you
a response. This position is output 1.2 of the CE "Strategy" program
discussed on Meta in Community Engagement's plan here
.
This role consolidates some of the work that is currently distributed in
Community Resources and some that is currently being done in Learning &
Evaluation and also plays a part in the Movement Organizers program. The
full scope of what this team is and what they do will be determined in
conjunction with phase 2 of strategy and subsequent Foundation plans. The
role is designated as "Manager" as they will have staff for whom they are
responsible, just as other manager positions in the Foundation do.

Best regards,

Maggie




On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 4:31 PM Pine W  wrote:

> Hello WMF folks,
>
> I have some concerns about this job posting:
> https://boards.greenhouse.io/wikimedia/jobs/1239209
>
> In some ways I appreciate that WMF wants to invest more money and time in
> identifying and developing potential volunteer leaders. However, I also
> have some concerns.
>
> * This role appears to have multiple redundancies with efforts that are
> already being done, or are planned to be done, in areas of WMF such as
> GLAM, Community Resources, and Audiences, plus activities that are
> undertaken by affiliates and grantees, so I wonder whether this position is
> adding unnecessary overhead expense and/or attempting to take over work
> that is already being done by community members. Can you clarify what value
> this position is adding, and whether WMF intends to take over scopes of
> work that are currently generally done by affiliates and grantees?
>
> * Was this position described in the 2018-2019 WMF Annual Plan? I was not
> able to find this position, or a scope of work that seemed to fit this
> position, in the Community Engagement Annual Plan. I was able to find a
> statement that talked about researching the needs of community organizers
> (which I think is a good idea!), but this position seems to have multiple
> objectives that are outside of that scope of work. Where is this specific
> position, or its specific scope of work, articulated in the Annual Plan for
> Community Engagement?
>
> * I have a more general concern. The idea of WMF placing itself in the
> position of managing community development is problematic. I generally
> would not want community organizers to learn directly from WMF how the
> Wikimedia community works and/or give new aspiring community leaders the
> idea that they should look to WMF for guidance. WMF's purpose is to serve
> the community, not to manage it, and generally WMF's idea of managing the
> community seems to go something like this: "We will decide what choices you
> get to make" (such as with Superprotect) and "We will decide what to fund
> and how the trademarks are used" (given WMF's centralization of funding and
> its legal monopoly on Wikimedia trademarks). If this position will be
> funded then I think that "Community Development Support Specialist" would
> be a much better title, and could be aligned with a scope of work that is
> more supportive of community goals and respectful of community autonomy.
>
> Thank you for listening to my concerns. I look forward to reading your
> response.
>
> Pine( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
> ___
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> 



-- 
Maggie Dennis
Interim Chief of Community Engagement
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
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[Wikimedia-l] Concerns about WMF's "Manager of Community Development" job posting

[Pine W]

Hello WMF folks,

I have some concerns about this job posting: 
https://boards.greenhouse.io/wikimedia/jobs/1239209

In some ways I appreciate that WMF wants to invest more money and time in 
identifying and developing potential volunteer leaders. However, I also have 
some concerns.

* This role appears to have multiple redundancies with efforts that are already 
being done, or are planned to be done, in areas of WMF such as GLAM, Community 
Resources, and Audiences, plus activities that are undertaken by affiliates and 
grantees, so I wonder whether this position is adding unnecessary overhead 
expense and/or attempting to take over work that is already being done by 
community members. Can you clarify what value this position is adding, and 
whether WMF intends to take over scopes of work that are currently generally 
done by affiliates and grantees?

* Was this position described in the 2018-2019 WMF Annual Plan? I was not able 
to find this position, or a scope of work that seemed to fit this position, in 
the Community Engagement Annual Plan. I was able to find a statement that 
talked about researching the needs of community organizers (which I think is a 
good idea!), but this position seems to have multiple objectives that are 
outside of that scope of work. Where is this specific position, or its specific 
scope of work, articulated in the Annual Plan for Community Engagement?

* I have a more general concern. The idea of WMF placing itself in the position 
of managing community development is problematic. I generally would not want 
community organizers to learn directly from WMF how the Wikimedia community 
works and/or give new aspiring community leaders the idea that they should look 
to WMF for guidance. WMF's purpose is to serve the community, not to manage it, 
and generally WMF's idea of managing the community seems to go something like 
this: "We will decide what choices you get to make" (such as with Superprotect) 
and "We will decide what to fund and how the trademarks are used" (given WMF's 
centralization of funding and its legal monopoly on Wikimedia trademarks). If 
this position will be funded then I think that "Community Development Support 
Specialist" would be a much better title, and could be aligned with a scope of 
work that is more supportive of community goals and respectful of community 
autonomy.

Thank you for listening to my concerns. I look forward to reading your response.

Pine( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
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