Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 3:32 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine_w...@yahoo.com wrote: On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:31:29, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: I can't see what would be sensitive in the article.. I think that the existence of the article is considered too sensitive for them, not realizing that all information is already elsewhere on the internet. A couple of years ago, the guy in charge of the CIA's internal MediaWiki (the Intelligence Wiki, which they added classification levels etc) did a talk at ... Usenix? LISA? One of their conferences. He was talking about challenges. The code certification was interesting. The Wiki project getting in trouble for having (US classified) Secret, Top Secret, or Top Secret SCI (Secure Compartmented Information) in the Open-unclassified category *due to Wikipedia uploads/imports* was apparently a major ongoing pain point for the whole organization. Fortunately not one that was being exposed to the public, other than his talk... -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
No, some information which is classified is also contained within reliable published sources available to the public and we use that information in our articles, along with occasional original research which may due to good guesses also contain such information. There are not two separate worlds of reliable classified information and reliable unclassified information; they overlap. For example, if Mongolia purchases MIG aircraft that will result in an intelligence bulletin; but also there may be an AP story. The summary of classified information about the planes Mongolia has may have an inferior, but more or less accurate, Wikipedia counterpart article about the Mongolian air force, which if copied to the Intelligence wiki looks like it contains secret information, which, presumably the full file on Mongolian armed forces probably is. Fred In other words, the problem was people were uploading Wikipedia articles which the government thought included classified information? And because the pages were already public uploaders assumed they were unclassified, but because the government is nuts, they were wrong. On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 3:06 PM, George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 3:32 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine_w...@yahoo.com wrote: On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:31:29, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: I can't see what would be sensitive in the article.. I think that the existence of the article is considered too sensitive for them, not realizing that all information is already elsewhere on the internet. A couple of years ago, the guy in charge of the CIA's internal MediaWiki (the Intelligence Wiki, which they added classification levels etc) did a talk at ... Usenix? LISA? One of their conferences. He was talking about challenges. The code certification was interesting. The Wiki project getting in trouble for having (US classified) Secret, Top Secret, or Top Secret SCI (Secure Compartmented Information) in the Open-unclassified category *due to Wikipedia uploads/imports* was apparently a major ongoing pain point for the whole organization. Fortunately not one that was being exposed to the public, other than his talk... -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
He didn't want to talk about which topic areas, but I have a pretty good idea of a few of them. I would hazard a guess that nuclear weapons design is one of them; there's a diagram on-wiki that would have been Top Secret - Restricted Data - Secure Compartmented Information - Sigma 16 until December 2000, when it was rephrased a bit. On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 1:26 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.comwrote: I don't understand the no; you seem to be agreeing with Nathan... On 8 April 2013 21:19, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: No, some information which is classified is also contained within reliable published sources available to the public and we use that information in our articles, along with occasional original research which may due to good guesses also contain such information. There are not two separate worlds of reliable classified information and reliable unclassified information; they overlap. For example, if Mongolia purchases MIG aircraft that will result in an intelligence bulletin; but also there may be an AP story. The summary of classified information about the planes Mongolia has may have an inferior, but more or less accurate, Wikipedia counterpart article about the Mongolian air force, which if copied to the Intelligence wiki looks like it contains secret information, which, presumably the full file on Mongolian armed forces probably is. Fred In other words, the problem was people were uploading Wikipedia articles which the government thought included classified information? And because the pages were already public uploaders assumed they were unclassified, but because the government is nuts, they were wrong. On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 3:06 PM, George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 3:32 PM, Romaine Wiki romaine_w...@yahoo.com wrote: On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:31:29, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: I can't see what would be sensitive in the article.. I think that the existence of the article is considered too sensitive for them, not realizing that all information is already elsewhere on the internet. A couple of years ago, the guy in charge of the CIA's internal MediaWiki (the Intelligence Wiki, which they added classification levels etc) did a talk at ... Usenix? LISA? One of their conferences. He was talking about challenges. The code certification was interesting. The Wiki project getting in trouble for having (US classified) Secret, Top Secret, or Top Secret SCI (Secure Compartmented Information) in the Open-unclassified category *due to Wikipedia uploads/imports* was apparently a major ongoing pain point for the whole organization. Fortunately not one that was being exposed to the public, other than his talk... -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
Could you share some examples of those articles where journalist report that story, please? Thanks, JP Beland aka Amqui 2013/4/6, Adrienne Alix adrienne.a...@wikimedia.fr: Hi folks, We published a blogpost in french : http://blog.wikimedia.fr/la-dcri-menace-un-administrateur-de-wikipedia-pour-supprimer-un-article-5477 And translation in english : http://blog.wikimedia.fr/dcri-threat-a-sysop-to-delete-a-wikipedia-article-5493 Many journalists and bloggers are taking back the story in the media. Everyone supports us. Adrienne -- == Adrienne Charmet-Alix Directrice des programmes - Wikimedia France adrienne.a...@wikimedia.fr fixe : 09 67 28 73 79 / mobile : 07.62.92.42.01 http://www.wikimedia.fr == ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
Weapons design is obvious; however much intelligence is about rather ordinary military capability and deployment. We seem to be doing poorly, from the intelligence standpoint responsibly, regarding laser weapons, the next big thing I don't think much has been published in public reliable sources, although it showed up today in the NYT. Fred. On 8 April 2013 20:06, George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.com wrote: He was talking about challenges. The code certification was interesting. The Wiki project getting in trouble for having (US classified) Secret, Top Secret, or Top Secret SCI (Secure Compartmented Information) in the Open-unclassified category *due to Wikipedia uploads/imports* was apparently a major ongoing pain point for the whole organization. I have to say, this is a delightful image :-) We had some problems in the past on enwiki with this officially secret situation - well-meaning military personnel trying to remove information from articles citing operational security reasons, even when the information was definitionally public. Strictly speaking, had *they* told us the information, they could perhaps have been breaching operational security; the problem came from not connecting that to the realisation that not everyone was bound by their specific security restrictions. (I forget the precise pages - a map of military zones in Iraq was involved in one, and I've also seen someone try and remove mention of where US divisions were based in Germany, which was perhaps a bit like trying to hide the proverbial elephant...) -- - Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
Regarding laser weapons - It has been published in public reliable sources, such as Aviation Week, Proceedings of the Naval Institute, various speciality publications like Janes Inteligence Review, etc. We have Category:Military_lasers which is thin but not empty. On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 2:17 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Weapons design is obvious; however much intelligence is about rather ordinary military capability and deployment. We seem to be doing poorly, from the intelligence standpoint responsibly, regarding laser weapons, the next big thing I don't think much has been published in public reliable sources, although it showed up today in the NYT. Fred. On 8 April 2013 20:06, George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.com wrote: He was talking about challenges. The code certification was interesting. The Wiki project getting in trouble for having (US classified) Secret, Top Secret, or Top Secret SCI (Secure Compartmented Information) in the Open-unclassified category *due to Wikipedia uploads/imports* was apparently a major ongoing pain point for the whole organization. I have to say, this is a delightful image :-) We had some problems in the past on enwiki with this officially secret situation - well-meaning military personnel trying to remove information from articles citing operational security reasons, even when the information was definitionally public. Strictly speaking, had *they* told us the information, they could perhaps have been breaching operational security; the problem came from not connecting that to the realisation that not everyone was bound by their specific security restrictions. (I forget the precise pages - a map of military zones in Iraq was involved in one, and I've also seen someone try and remove mention of where US divisions were based in Germany, which was perhaps a bit like trying to hide the proverbial elephant...) -- - Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
An intelligence agency that apparently hasn't done enough intelligence to know that doing such action would cause the opposite and also clearly do not know how Wikipedia works. Did I had to high expectations or were their criteria of quality too low? On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:31:29, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: I can't see what would be sensitive in the article.. I think that the existence of the article is considered too sensitive for them, not realizing that all information is already elsewhere on the internet. On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 22:09:51, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: Well that's one way of drawing attention to the site... We should thank them for making Wikipedia get in the spotlights. Free publicity. As the intelligence agencies are enough encyclopaedic to have in our encyclopaedias, maybe we should think of setting up a project like Wiki Loves intelligence agencies. ;-) Compared to Wiki Loves Monuments are the heritage agencies loved by the Wikipedians and the heritage agencies like the Wikipedias, while with Wiki Loves intelligence agencies is probably only a one-way loving. Romaine ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 12:32 AM, Romaine Wiki romaine_w...@yahoo.com wrote: An intelligence agency that apparently hasn't done enough intelligence to know that doing such action would cause the opposite Possibly there will be a rise in the number of janitors against the number of intelligence officers. g ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
Hi folks, We published a blogpost in french : http://blog.wikimedia.fr/la-dcri-menace-un-administrateur-de-wikipedia-pour-supprimer-un-article-5477 And translation in english : http://blog.wikimedia.fr/dcri-threat-a-sysop-to-delete-a-wikipedia-article-5493 Many journalists and bloggers are taking back the story in the media. Everyone supports us. Adrienne -- == Adrienne Charmet-Alix Directrice des programmes - Wikimedia France adrienne.a...@wikimedia.fr fixe : 09 67 28 73 79 / mobile : 07.62.92.42.01 http://www.wikimedia.fr == ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
At last you can also see the effects on pageviews (it was a bit slow): https://toolserver.org/~johang/wikitrends/french-uptrends-today.html Uptrends on French Wikipedia today Station hertzienne militaire de Pierre-sur-Haute (+1 161 125%) La station hertzienne de Pierre-sur-Haute est un site de trente hectares voué aux communications interarmées françaises, situé sur les communes de Sauvain et de Job, la limite entre le Rhône-Alpes et l'Auvergne traversant la base. En périphérie de sa voca... Related pages: Effet Streisand (+28 486%) http://stats.grok.se/fr/201304/Station_hertzienne_militaire_de_Pierre-sur-Haute http://stats.grok.se/fr/201304/Station%20hertzienne%20militaire%20de%20Pierre%20sur%20Haute Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
[Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
Hi there, I guess you might be interested to hear that Direction Centrale du Renseignement Intérieur (Central Directorate of Interior Intelligence, DCRI), a French intelligence agency that reports directly to the Ministry of the Interior, has apparently forced a French Wikipedia administrator to delete an article that in their opinion—as I understand it—revelead classified information deemed very harmful to the French national defence (compromission du secret de la Défense nationale). Interestingly, they contacted the WMF legal team with a request to remove (delete? suppress?) this article a couple of weeks before that, but were refused after failing to provide further information on why the article should be removed (in the words of a Foundation legal counsel). Undounted by that, they approached the said administrator — who operates under his real name, so I guess it was pretty easy to track him — and asked him to delete this article, a request which he obliged. (The article has since been restored by a different administrator). As far as I understand, the version of the article they wanted to have deleted was https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=81104004. I guess that when an intelligence agency asks their citizen to remove information from Wikipedia citing the penal code (article 413-11 of the French penal code in this case), it is something worth sharing (no harm intended). Further reading in English: * https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prevoldid=91703508 * https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=91705235 -- Tomasz W. Kozłowski a.k.a. [[user:odder]] ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
Hard to know what was involved from the information you provide. The problem is there is classified information that amounts to nothing and then there is classified information release of which can cause serious damage. Defiance will eventually result in serious trouble. Not that we should knuckle under to nonsense. Fred Hi there, I guess you might be interested to hear that Direction Centrale du Renseignement Intérieur (Central Directorate of Interior Intelligence, DCRI), a French intelligence agency that reports directly to the Ministry of the Interior, has apparently forced a French Wikipedia administrator to delete an article that in their opinionâas I understand itârevelead classified information deemed very harmful to the French national defence (compromission du secret de la Défense nationale). Interestingly, they contacted the WMF legal team with a request to remove (delete? suppress?) this article a couple of weeks before that, but were refused after failing to provide further information on why the article should be removed (in the words of a Foundation legal counsel). Undounted by that, they approached the said administrator â who operates under his real name, so I guess it was pretty easy to track him â and asked him to delete this article, a request which he obliged. (The article has since been restored by a different administrator). As far as I understand, the version of the article they wanted to have deleted was https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=81104004. I guess that when an intelligence agency asks their citizen to remove information from Wikipedia citing the penal code (article 413-11 of the French penal code in this case), it is something worth sharing (no harm intended). Further reading in English: * https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prevoldid=91703508 * https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=91705235 -- Tomasz W. KozÅowski a.k.a. [[user:odder]] ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
This is where the discussion is happening on-wiki: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Bulletin_des_administrateurs#Secret_d.C3.A9fense On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Hard to know what was involved from the information you provide. The problem is there is classified information that amounts to nothing and then there is classified information release of which can cause serious damage. Defiance will eventually result in serious trouble. Not that we should knuckle under to nonsense. Fred Hi there, I guess you might be interested to hear that Direction Centrale du Renseignement Intérieur (Central Directorate of Interior Intelligence, DCRI), a French intelligence agency that reports directly to the Ministry of the Interior, has apparently forced a French Wikipedia administrator to delete an article that in their opinion—as I understand it—revelead classified information deemed very harmful to the French national defence (compromission du secret de la Défense nationale). Interestingly, they contacted the WMF legal team with a request to remove (delete? suppress?) this article a couple of weeks before that, but were refused after failing to provide further information on why the article should be removed (in the words of a Foundation legal counsel). Undounted by that, they approached the said administrator — who operates under his real name, so I guess it was pretty easy to track him — and asked him to delete this article, a request which he obliged. (The article has since been restored by a different administrator). As far as I understand, the version of the article they wanted to have deleted was https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=81104004. I guess that when an intelligence agency asks their citizen to remove information from Wikipedia citing the penal code (article 413-11 of the French penal code in this case), it is something worth sharing (no harm intended). Further reading in English: * https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prevoldid=91703508 * https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=91705235 -- Tomasz W. Kozłowski a.k.a. [[user:odder]] ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- Matthew Roth Global Communications Manager Wikimedia Foundation +1.415.839.6885 ext 6635 www.wikimediafoundation.org *https://donate.wikimedia.org* ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
Do not they have Swiss, Canadian, and Balgian administrators to restore the article? Cheers Yaroslav On 05.04.2013 19:41, Tomasz W. Kozłowski wrote: Hi there, I guess you might be interested to hear that Direction Centrale du Renseignement Intérieur (Central Directorate of Interior Intelligence, DCRI), a French intelligence agency that reports directly to the Ministry of the Interior, has apparently forced a French Wikipedia administrator to delete an article that in their opinion—as I understand it—revelead classified information deemed very harmful to the French national defence (compromission du secret de la Défense nationale). Interestingly, they contacted the WMF legal team with a request to remove (delete? suppress?) this article a couple of weeks before that, but were refused after failing to provide further information on why the article should be removed (in the words of a Foundation legal counsel). Undounted by that, they approached the said administrator — who operates under his real name, so I guess it was pretty easy to track him — and asked him to delete this article, a request which he obliged. (The article has since been restored by a different administrator). As far as I understand, the version of the article they wanted to have deleted was https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=81104004. I guess that when an intelligence agency asks their citizen to remove information from Wikipedia citing the penal code (article 413-11 of the French penal code in this case), it is something worth sharing (no harm intended). Further reading in English: * https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prevoldid=91703508 * https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=91705235 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
Am 05.04.2013 20:58, schrieb Yaroslav M. Blanter: Do not they have Swiss, Canadian, and Balgian administrators to restore the article? The article actually was restored by someone outside France. /Manuel -- Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
Typical. They were not willing to tell our legal counsel why or what was classified; she, of course, has no French security clearance; now it is spread all over an administrators noticeboard, and restored. They weren't wrong but neither is our legal counsel or the users; so fell between the cracks. Hopefully the matter was not too important; I'm sure we have enough money to pay for relocating the facility to a secure location. Fred This is where the discussion is happening on-wiki: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Bulletin_des_administrateurs#Secret_d.C3.A9fense On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Hard to know what was involved from the information you provide. The problem is there is classified information that amounts to nothing and then there is classified information release of which can cause serious damage. Defiance will eventually result in serious trouble. Not that we should knuckle under to nonsense. Fred Hi there, I guess you might be interested to hear that Direction Centrale du Renseignement Intérieur (Central Directorate of Interior Intelligence, DCRI), a French intelligence agency that reports directly to the Ministry of the Interior, has apparently forced a French Wikipedia administrator to delete an article that in their opinionâas I understand itârevelead classified information deemed very harmful to the French national defence (compromission du secret de la Défense nationale). Interestingly, they contacted the WMF legal team with a request to remove (delete? suppress?) this article a couple of weeks before that, but were refused after failing to provide further information on why the article should be removed (in the words of a Foundation legal counsel). Undounted by that, they approached the said administrator â who operates under his real name, so I guess it was pretty easy to track him â and asked him to delete this article, a request which he obliged. (The article has since been restored by a different administrator). As far as I understand, the version of the article they wanted to have deleted was https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=81104004. I guess that when an intelligence agency asks their citizen to remove information from Wikipedia citing the penal code (article 413-11 of the French penal code in this case), it is something worth sharing (no harm intended). Further reading in English: * https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prevoldid=91703508 * https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=91705235 -- Tomasz W. KozÅowski a.k.a. [[user:odder]] ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- Matthew Roth Global Communications Manager Wikimedia Foundation +1.415.839.6885 ext 6635 www.wikimediafoundation.org *https://donate.wikimedia.org* ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
This is seeming a little silly; it's just a big communications station. It's got huge radio towers and is very visible on the skyline for a distance. It's got a civilian radio/TV tower colocated with it. I can't see what would be sensitive in the article.. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Typical. They were not willing to tell our legal counsel why or what was classified; she, of course, has no French security clearance; now it is spread all over an administrators noticeboard, and restored. They weren't wrong but neither is our legal counsel or the users; so fell between the cracks. Hopefully the matter was not too important; I'm sure we have enough money to pay for relocating the facility to a secure location. Fred This is where the discussion is happening on-wiki: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Bulletin_des_administrateurs#Secret_d.C3.A9fense On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Hard to know what was involved from the information you provide. The problem is there is classified information that amounts to nothing and then there is classified information release of which can cause serious damage. Defiance will eventually result in serious trouble. Not that we should knuckle under to nonsense. Fred Hi there, I guess you might be interested to hear that Direction Centrale du Renseignement Intérieur (Central Directorate of Interior Intelligence, DCRI), a French intelligence agency that reports directly to the Ministry of the Interior, has apparently forced a French Wikipedia administrator to delete an article that in their opinion—as I understand it—revelead classified information deemed very harmful to the French national defence (compromission du secret de la Défense nationale). Interestingly, they contacted the WMF legal team with a request to remove (delete? suppress?) this article a couple of weeks before that, but were refused after failing to provide further information on why the article should be removed (in the words of a Foundation legal counsel). Undounted by that, they approached the said administrator — who operates under his real name, so I guess it was pretty easy to track him — and asked him to delete this article, a request which he obliged. (The article has since been restored by a different administrator). As far as I understand, the version of the article they wanted to have deleted was https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=81104004. I guess that when an intelligence agency asks their citizen to remove information from Wikipedia citing the penal code (article 413-11 of the French penal code in this case), it is something worth sharing (no harm intended). Further reading in English: * https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prevoldid=91703508 * https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=91705235 -- Tomasz W. Kozłowski a.k.a. [[user:odder]] ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- Matthew Roth Global Communications Manager Wikimedia Foundation +1.415.839.6885 ext 6635 www.wikimediafoundation.org *https://donate.wikimedia.org* ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
Somehow it is important... Streisand effect writ large. Unless somehow it was just a mixup, or a deliberate attempt to put a false target forward. Fred This is seeming a little silly; it's just a big communications station. It's got huge radio towers and is very visible on the skyline for a distance. It's got a civilian radio/TV tower colocated with it. I can't see what would be sensitive in the article.. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Typical. They were not willing to tell our legal counsel why or what was classified; she, of course, has no French security clearance; now it is spread all over an administrators noticeboard, and restored. They weren't wrong but neither is our legal counsel or the users; so fell between the cracks. Hopefully the matter was not too important; I'm sure we have enough money to pay for relocating the facility to a secure location. Fred This is where the discussion is happening on-wiki: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Bulletin_des_administrateurs#Secret_d.C3.A9fense On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Hard to know what was involved from the information you provide. The problem is there is classified information that amounts to nothing and then there is classified information release of which can cause serious damage. Defiance will eventually result in serious trouble. Not that we should knuckle under to nonsense. Fred Hi there, I guess you might be interested to hear that Direction Centrale du Renseignement Intérieur (Central Directorate of Interior Intelligence, DCRI), a French intelligence agency that reports directly to the Ministry of the Interior, has apparently forced a French Wikipedia administrator to delete an article that in their opinionâas I understand itârevelead classified information deemed very harmful to the French national defence (compromission du secret de la Défense nationale). Interestingly, they contacted the WMF legal team with a request to remove (delete? suppress?) this article a couple of weeks before that, but were refused after failing to provide further information on why the article should be removed (in the words of a Foundation legal counsel). Undounted by that, they approached the said administrator â who operates under his real name, so I guess it was pretty easy to track him â and asked him to delete this article, a request which he obliged. (The article has since been restored by a different administrator). As far as I understand, the version of the article they wanted to have deleted was https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=81104004. I guess that when an intelligence agency asks their citizen to remove information from Wikipedia citing the penal code (article 413-11 of the French penal code in this case), it is something worth sharing (no harm intended). Further reading in English: * https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prevoldid=91703508 * https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=91705235 -- Tomasz W. KozÅowski a.k.a. [[user:odder]] ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- Matthew Roth Global Communications Manager Wikimedia Foundation +1.415.839.6885 ext 6635 www.wikimediafoundation.org *https://donate.wikimedia.org* ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
Was it an author of the article they contacted, or just a random administrator? Leo ___Leonard wallentinleo_wallen...@hotmail.com@leo_wallentin+46 (0) 735 - 933 543 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 13:44:57 -0600 From: fredb...@fairpoint.net To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article Somehow it is important... Streisand effect writ large. Unless somehow it was just a mixup, or a deliberate attempt to put a false target forward. Fred This is seeming a little silly; it's just a big communications station. It's got huge radio towers and is very visible on the skyline for a distance. It's got a civilian radio/TV tower colocated with it. I can't see what would be sensitive in the article.. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Typical. They were not willing to tell our legal counsel why or what was classified; she, of course, has no French security clearance; now it is spread all over an administrators noticeboard, and restored. They weren't wrong but neither is our legal counsel or the users; so fell between the cracks. Hopefully the matter was not too important; I'm sure we have enough money to pay for relocating the facility to a secure location. Fred This is where the discussion is happening on-wiki: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Bulletin_des_administrateurs#Secret_d.C3.A9fense On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Hard to know what was involved from the information you provide. The problem is there is classified information that amounts to nothing and then there is classified information release of which can cause serious damage. Defiance will eventually result in serious trouble. Not that we should knuckle under to nonsense. Fred Hi there, I guess you might be interested to hear that Direction Centrale du Renseignement Intérieur (Central Directorate of Interior Intelligence, DCRI), a French intelligence agency that reports directly to the Ministry of the Interior, has apparently forced a French Wikipedia administrator to delete an article that in their opinion—as I understand it—revelead classified information deemed very harmful to the French national defence (compromission du secret de la Défense nationale). Interestingly, they contacted the WMF legal team with a request to remove (delete? suppress?) this article a couple of weeks before that, but were refused after failing to provide further information on why the article should be removed (in the words of a Foundation legal counsel). Undounted by that, they approached the said administrator — who operates under his real name, so I guess it was pretty easy to track him — and asked him to delete this article, a request which he obliged. (The article has since been restored by a different administrator). As far as I understand, the version of the article they wanted to have deleted was https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=81104004. I guess that when an intelligence agency asks their citizen to remove information from Wikipedia citing the penal code (article 413-11 of the French penal code in this case), it is something worth sharing (no harm intended). Further reading in English: * https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prevoldid=91703508 * https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=91705235 -- Tomasz W. Kozłowski a.k.a. [[user:odder]] ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- Matthew Roth Global Communications Manager Wikimedia Foundation +1.415.839.6885 ext 6635 www.wikimediafoundation.org *https://donate.wikimedia.org* ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
Le vendredi 05 avril 2013 à 13:44 -0600, Fred Bauder a écrit : Somehow it is important... Streisand effect writ large. Unless somehow it was just a mixup, or a deliberate attempt to put a false target forward. Or maybe just a test to see how hard it could be to do. Who know. ;) ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
WMF Legal Counsel Michele Paulson has added a statement to the discussion on fr.wp here: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Bulletin_des_administrateurs/2013/Semaine_14#Wikimedia_Foundation_elaborates_on_recent_demand_by_French_governmental_agency_to_remove_Wikipedia_content . It is also repeated on Meta here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Legal_and_Community_Advocacy/Statement_on_France I noted on the Communications Committee list that everyone can feel invited to send press inquiries to me at the Foundation. I'm happy to clarify what we know of the chronology of events and answer questions reporters might have. thank you, Matthew -- Matthew Roth Global Communications Manager Wikimedia Foundation +1.415.839.6885 ext 6635 www.wikimediafoundation.org *https://donate.wikimedia.org* On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Mathieu Stumpf psychosl...@culture-libre.org wrote: Le vendredi 05 avril 2013 à 13:44 -0600, Fred Bauder a écrit : Somehow it is important... Streisand effect writ large. Unless somehow it was just a mixup, or a deliberate attempt to put a false target forward. Or maybe just a test to see how hard it could be to do. Who know. ;) ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article
Quite so, any information that can not be referenced can be challenged and deleted in the usual way - without attracting much attention, and entirely within the accepted procedures of Wikipedia. - Original Message - From: Alex Peek alexpe...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 6:32 AM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article All complaints about this project will be respected. I completely understand why a certain country or locality would object to data being included and this project. Keep in mind that all pieces of data used in the project must be available to the public. I do not understand why there would be an objection when data used is freely available. The current Wikipedia 'Economy of the pages already feature lots of world economic data. This project organizes that data in a legal way. The whole point of this project is to provide a public good. I do not want to offend anyone or do anybody harm. I believe that this project would help educated people about the world economy. On 5 April 2013 20:02, Mathieu Stumpf psychosl...@culture-libre.org wrote: Le vendredi 05 avril 2013 à 13:44 -0600, Fred Bauder a écrit : Somehow it is important... Streisand effect writ large. Unless somehow it was just a mixup, or a deliberate attempt to put a false target forward. Or maybe just a test to see how hard it could be to do. Who know. ;) ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5726 - Release Date: 04/05/13 ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
