Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[George Herbert]

Regarding laser weapons -

It has been published in public reliable sources, such as Aviation Week,
Proceedings of the Naval Institute, various speciality publications like
Janes Inteligence Review, etc.

We have Category:Military_lasers which is thin but not empty.



On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 2:17 PM, Fred Bauder  wrote:

> Weapons design is obvious; however much intelligence is about rather
> ordinary military capability and deployment. We seem to be doing poorly,
> from the intelligence standpoint responsibly, regarding laser weapons,
> the "next big thing" I don't think much has been published in public
> reliable sources, although it showed up today in the NYT.
>
> Fred.
>
> > On 8 April 2013 20:06, George Herbert  wrote:
> >
> >> He was talking about challenges.  The code certification was
> >> interesting.
> >>  The Wiki project getting in trouble for having (US classified) Secret,
> >> Top
> >> Secret, or Top Secret SCI (Secure Compartmented Information) in the
> >> "Open-unclassified" category *due to Wikipedia uploads/imports* was
> >> apparently a major ongoing pain point for the whole organization.
> >
> > I have to say, this is a delightful image :-)
> >
> > We had some problems in the past on enwiki with this "officially
> > secret" situation - well-meaning military personnel trying to remove
> > information from articles citing operational security reasons, even
> > when the information was definitionally public. Strictly speaking, had
> > *they* told us the information, they could perhaps have been breaching
> > operational security; the problem came from not connecting that to the
> > realisation that not everyone was bound by their specific security
> > restrictions.
> >
> > (I forget the precise pages - a map of military zones in Iraq was
> > involved in one, and I've also seen someone try and remove mention of
> > where US divisions were based in Germany, which was perhaps a bit like
> > trying to hide the proverbial elephant...)
> >
> > --
> > - Andrew Gray
> >   andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Fred Bauder]

Weapons design is obvious; however much intelligence is about rather
ordinary military capability and deployment. We seem to be doing poorly,
from the intelligence standpoint responsibly, regarding laser weapons,
the "next big thing" I don't think much has been published in public
reliable sources, although it showed up today in the NYT.

Fred.

> On 8 April 2013 20:06, George Herbert  wrote:
>
>> He was talking about challenges.  The code certification was
>> interesting.
>>  The Wiki project getting in trouble for having (US classified) Secret,
>> Top
>> Secret, or Top Secret SCI (Secure Compartmented Information) in the
>> "Open-unclassified" category *due to Wikipedia uploads/imports* was
>> apparently a major ongoing pain point for the whole organization.
>
> I have to say, this is a delightful image :-)
>
> We had some problems in the past on enwiki with this "officially
> secret" situation - well-meaning military personnel trying to remove
> information from articles citing operational security reasons, even
> when the information was definitionally public. Strictly speaking, had
> *they* told us the information, they could perhaps have been breaching
> operational security; the problem came from not connecting that to the
> realisation that not everyone was bound by their specific security
> restrictions.
>
> (I forget the precise pages - a map of military zones in Iraq was
> involved in one, and I've also seen someone try and remove mention of
> where US divisions were based in Germany, which was perhaps a bit like
> trying to hide the proverbial elephant...)
>
> --
> - Andrew Gray
>   andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[JP Béland]

Could you share some examples of those articles where journalist
report that story, please?

Thanks,
JP Beland aka Amqui

2013/4/6, Adrienne Alix :
> Hi folks,
>
>
> We published a blogpost in french :
> http://blog.wikimedia.fr/la-dcri-menace-un-administrateur-de-wikipedia-pour-supprimer-un-article-5477
>
> And translation in english :
> http://blog.wikimedia.fr/dcri-threat-a-sysop-to-delete-a-wikipedia-article-5493
>
> Many journalists and bloggers are taking back the story in the media.
> Everyone supports us.
>
>
>
>
> Adrienne
>
> --
> ==
> Adrienne Charmet-Alix
> Directrice des programmes - Wikimedia France
> adrienne.a...@wikimedia.fr
> fixe : 09 67 28 73 79 / mobile : 07.62.92.42.01
> http://www.wikimedia.fr
> ==
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>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[George Herbert]

He didn't want to talk about which topic areas, but I have a pretty good
idea of a few of them.

I would hazard a guess that nuclear weapons design is one of them; there's
a diagram on-wiki that would have been Top Secret - Restricted Data -
Secure Compartmented Information - Sigma 16 until December 2000, when it
was rephrased a bit.


On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 1:26 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:

> I don't understand the "no"; you seem to be agreeing with Nathan...
>
> On 8 April 2013 21:19, Fred Bauder  wrote:
> > No, some information which is classified is also contained within
> > reliable published sources available to the public and we use that
> > information in our articles, along with occasional original research
> > which may due to good guesses also contain such information. There are
> > not two separate worlds of reliable classified information and reliable
> > unclassified information; they overlap.
> >
> > For example, if Mongolia purchases MIG aircraft that will result in an
> > intelligence bulletin; but also there may be an AP story. The summary of
> > classified information about the planes Mongolia has may have an
> > inferior, but more or less accurate, Wikipedia counterpart article about
> > the Mongolian air force, which if copied to the Intelligence wiki looks
> > like it contains "secret" information, which, presumably the full file on
> > Mongolian armed forces probably is.
> >
> > Fred
> >
> >> In other words, the problem was people were uploading Wikipedia
> >> articles which the government thought included classified information?
> >> And because the pages were already public uploaders assumed they were
> >> unclassified, but because the government is nuts, they were wrong.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 3:06 PM, George Herbert <
> george.herb...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 3:32 PM, Romaine Wiki 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> 
>  On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:31:29, Fred Bauder 
>  wrote:
>  > I can't see what would be sensitive in the article..
> 
>  I think that the existence of the article is considered too sensitive
>  for
>  them, not realizing that all information is already elsewhere on the
>  internet.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> A couple of years ago, the guy in charge of the CIA's internal
> >>> MediaWiki
> >>> (the Intelligence Wiki, which they added classification levels etc) did
> >>> a
> >>> talk at ... Usenix?  LISA?  One of their conferences.
> >>>
> >>> He was talking about challenges.  The code certification was
> >>> interesting.
> >>>  The Wiki project getting in trouble for having (US classified) Secret,
> >>> Top
> >>> Secret, or Top Secret SCI (Secure Compartmented Information) in the
> >>> "Open-unclassified" category *due to Wikipedia uploads/imports* was
> >>> apparently a major ongoing pain point for the whole organization.
> >>>
> >>> Fortunately not one that was being exposed to the public, other than
> >>> his
> >>> talk...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> -george william herbert
> >>> george.herb...@gmail.com
> >>> ___
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> >>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >>
> >> ___
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Andrew Gray]

On 8 April 2013 20:06, George Herbert  wrote:

> He was talking about challenges.  The code certification was interesting.
>  The Wiki project getting in trouble for having (US classified) Secret, Top
> Secret, or Top Secret SCI (Secure Compartmented Information) in the
> "Open-unclassified" category *due to Wikipedia uploads/imports* was
> apparently a major ongoing pain point for the whole organization.

I have to say, this is a delightful image :-)

We had some problems in the past on enwiki with this "officially
secret" situation - well-meaning military personnel trying to remove
information from articles citing operational security reasons, even
when the information was definitionally public. Strictly speaking, had
*they* told us the information, they could perhaps have been breaching
operational security; the problem came from not connecting that to the
realisation that not everyone was bound by their specific security
restrictions.

(I forget the precise pages - a map of military zones in Iraq was
involved in one, and I've also seen someone try and remove mention of
where US divisions were based in Germany, which was perhaps a bit like
trying to hide the proverbial elephant...)

-- 
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Thomas Dalton]

I don't understand the "no"; you seem to be agreeing with Nathan...

On 8 April 2013 21:19, Fred Bauder  wrote:
> No, some information which is classified is also contained within
> reliable published sources available to the public and we use that
> information in our articles, along with occasional original research
> which may due to good guesses also contain such information. There are
> not two separate worlds of reliable classified information and reliable
> unclassified information; they overlap.
>
> For example, if Mongolia purchases MIG aircraft that will result in an
> intelligence bulletin; but also there may be an AP story. The summary of
> classified information about the planes Mongolia has may have an
> inferior, but more or less accurate, Wikipedia counterpart article about
> the Mongolian air force, which if copied to the Intelligence wiki looks
> like it contains "secret" information, which, presumably the full file on
> Mongolian armed forces probably is.
>
> Fred
>
>> In other words, the problem was people were uploading Wikipedia
>> articles which the government thought included classified information?
>> And because the pages were already public uploaders assumed they were
>> unclassified, but because the government is nuts, they were wrong.
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 3:06 PM, George Herbert 
>> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 3:32 PM, Romaine Wiki 
>>> wrote:
>>>

 On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:31:29, Fred Bauder 
 wrote:
 > I can't see what would be sensitive in the article..

 I think that the existence of the article is considered too sensitive
 for
 them, not realizing that all information is already elsewhere on the
 internet.
>>>
>>>
>>> A couple of years ago, the guy in charge of the CIA's internal
>>> MediaWiki
>>> (the Intelligence Wiki, which they added classification levels etc) did
>>> a
>>> talk at ... Usenix?  LISA?  One of their conferences.
>>>
>>> He was talking about challenges.  The code certification was
>>> interesting.
>>>  The Wiki project getting in trouble for having (US classified) Secret,
>>> Top
>>> Secret, or Top Secret SCI (Secure Compartmented Information) in the
>>> "Open-unclassified" category *due to Wikipedia uploads/imports* was
>>> apparently a major ongoing pain point for the whole organization.
>>>
>>> Fortunately not one that was being exposed to the public, other than
>>> his
>>> talk...
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> -george william herbert
>>> george.herb...@gmail.com
>>> ___
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Fred Bauder]

No, some information which is classified is also contained within
reliable published sources available to the public and we use that
information in our articles, along with occasional original research
which may due to good guesses also contain such information. There are
not two separate worlds of reliable classified information and reliable
unclassified information; they overlap.

For example, if Mongolia purchases MIG aircraft that will result in an
intelligence bulletin; but also there may be an AP story. The summary of
classified information about the planes Mongolia has may have an
inferior, but more or less accurate, Wikipedia counterpart article about
the Mongolian air force, which if copied to the Intelligence wiki looks
like it contains "secret" information, which, presumably the full file on
Mongolian armed forces probably is.

Fred

> In other words, the problem was people were uploading Wikipedia
> articles which the government thought included classified information?
> And because the pages were already public uploaders assumed they were
> unclassified, but because the government is nuts, they were wrong.
>
> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 3:06 PM, George Herbert 
> wrote:
>> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 3:32 PM, Romaine Wiki 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:31:29, Fred Bauder 
>>> wrote:
>>> > I can't see what would be sensitive in the article..
>>>
>>> I think that the existence of the article is considered too sensitive
>>> for
>>> them, not realizing that all information is already elsewhere on the
>>> internet.
>>
>>
>> A couple of years ago, the guy in charge of the CIA's internal
>> MediaWiki
>> (the Intelligence Wiki, which they added classification levels etc) did
>> a
>> talk at ... Usenix?  LISA?  One of their conferences.
>>
>> He was talking about challenges.  The code certification was
>> interesting.
>>  The Wiki project getting in trouble for having (US classified) Secret,
>> Top
>> Secret, or Top Secret SCI (Secure Compartmented Information) in the
>> "Open-unclassified" category *due to Wikipedia uploads/imports* was
>> apparently a major ongoing pain point for the whole organization.
>>
>> Fortunately not one that was being exposed to the public, other than
>> his
>> talk...
>>
>>
>> --
>> -george william herbert
>> george.herb...@gmail.com
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Nathan]

In other words, the problem was people were uploading Wikipedia
articles which the government thought included classified information?
And because the pages were already public uploaders assumed they were
unclassified, but because the government is nuts, they were wrong.

On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 3:06 PM, George Herbert  wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 3:32 PM, Romaine Wiki  wrote:
>
>>
>> On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:31:29, Fred Bauder  wrote:
>> > I can't see what would be sensitive in the article..
>>
>> I think that the existence of the article is considered too sensitive for
>> them, not realizing that all information is already elsewhere on the
>> internet.
>
>
> A couple of years ago, the guy in charge of the CIA's internal MediaWiki
> (the Intelligence Wiki, which they added classification levels etc) did a
> talk at ... Usenix?  LISA?  One of their conferences.
>
> He was talking about challenges.  The code certification was interesting.
>  The Wiki project getting in trouble for having (US classified) Secret, Top
> Secret, or Top Secret SCI (Secure Compartmented Information) in the
> "Open-unclassified" category *due to Wikipedia uploads/imports* was
> apparently a major ongoing pain point for the whole organization.
>
> Fortunately not one that was being exposed to the public, other than his
> talk...
>
>
> --
> -george william herbert
> george.herb...@gmail.com
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[George Herbert]

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 3:32 PM, Romaine Wiki  wrote:

>
> On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:31:29, Fred Bauder  wrote:
> > I can't see what would be sensitive in the article..
>
> I think that the existence of the article is considered too sensitive for
> them, not realizing that all information is already elsewhere on the
> internet.


A couple of years ago, the guy in charge of the CIA's internal MediaWiki
(the Intelligence Wiki, which they added classification levels etc) did a
talk at ... Usenix?  LISA?  One of their conferences.

He was talking about challenges.  The code certification was interesting.
 The Wiki project getting in trouble for having (US classified) Secret, Top
Secret, or Top Secret SCI (Secure Compartmented Information) in the
"Open-unclassified" category *due to Wikipedia uploads/imports* was
apparently a major ongoing pain point for the whole organization.

Fortunately not one that was being exposed to the public, other than his
talk...


-- 
-george william herbert
george.herb...@gmail.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Peter Gervai]

On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 12:32 AM, Romaine Wiki  wrote:
> An intelligence agency that apparently hasn't done enough intelligence to 
> know that doing such action would cause the opposite

Possibly there will be a rise in the number of janitors against the
number of intelligence officers.

g

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Romaine Wiki]

An intelligence agency that apparently hasn't done enough intelligence to know 
that doing such action would cause the opposite and also clearly do not know 
how Wikipedia works. Did I had to high expectations or were their criteria of 
quality too low?

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:31:29, Fred Bauder  wrote:
> I can't see what would be sensitive in the article..

I think that the existence of the article is considered too sensitive for them, 
not realizing that all information is already elsewhere on the internet. 

On Fri, 5 Apr 2013 22:09:51, "Peter Southwood"  
wrote:
> Well that's one way of drawing attention to the site...

We should thank them for making Wikipedia get in the spotlights. Free 
publicity. 



As the intelligence agencies are enough encyclopaedic to have in our 
encyclopaedias, maybe we should think of setting up a project like Wiki Loves 
intelligence agencies.  ;-)  Compared to Wiki Loves Monuments are the heritage 
agencies loved by the Wikipedians and the heritage agencies like the 
Wikipedias, while with Wiki Loves intelligence agencies is probably only a 
one-way loving.


Romaine

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

At last you can also see the effects on pageviews (it was a bit slow):
https://toolserver.org/~johang/wikitrends/french-uptrends-today.html

Uptrends on French Wikipedia today

Station hertzienne militaire de Pierre-sur-Haute (+1 161 125%)
La station hertzienne de Pierre-sur-Haute est un site de trente 
hectares voué aux communications interarmées françaises, situé sur les 
communes de Sauvain et de Job, la limite entre le Rhône-Alpes et 
l'Auvergne traversant la base. En périphérie de sa voca...

Related pages: Effet Streisand (+28 486%)   




Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Adrienne Alix]

Hi folks,


We published a blogpost in french :
http://blog.wikimedia.fr/la-dcri-menace-un-administrateur-de-wikipedia-pour-supprimer-un-article-5477

And translation in english :
http://blog.wikimedia.fr/dcri-threat-a-sysop-to-delete-a-wikipedia-article-5493

Many journalists and bloggers are taking back the story in the media.
Everyone supports us.




Adrienne

-- 
==
Adrienne Charmet-Alix
Directrice des programmes - Wikimedia France
adrienne.a...@wikimedia.fr
fixe : 09 67 28 73 79 / mobile : 07.62.92.42.01
http://www.wikimedia.fr
==
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Peter Southwood]

Quite so, any information that can not be referenced can be challenged and 
deleted in the usual way - without attracting much attention, and entirely 
within the accepted procedures of Wikipedia.


- Original Message - 
From: "Alex Peek" 

To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" 
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a 
Wikipedia article




All complaints about this project will be respected. I completely
understand why a certain country or locality would object to data being
included and this project.

Keep in mind that all pieces of data used in the project must be available
to the public. I do not understand why there would be an objection when
data used is freely available.

The current Wikipedia 'Economy of the " pages already feature lots
of world economic data. This project organizes that data in a legal way.

The whole point of this project is to provide a public good. I do not want
to offend anyone or do anybody harm. I believe that this project would 
help

educated people about the world economy.


On 5 April 2013 20:02, Mathieu Stumpf  
wrote:



Le vendredi 05 avril 2013 à 13:44 -0600, Fred Bauder a écrit :
> Somehow it is important... Streisand effect writ large. Unless somehow 
> it
> was just a mixup, or a deliberate attempt to put a false target 
> forward.


Or maybe just a test to see how hard it could be to do. Who know. ;)

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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5726 - Release Date: 04/05/13




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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Matthew Roth]

WMF Legal Counsel Michele Paulson has added a statement to the discussion
on fr.wp here:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Bulletin_des_administrateurs/2013/Semaine_14#Wikimedia_Foundation_elaborates_on_recent_demand_by_French_governmental_agency_to_remove_Wikipedia_content
.

It is also repeated on Meta here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Legal_and_Community_Advocacy/Statement_on_France

I noted on the Communications Committee list that everyone can feel invited
to send press inquiries to me at the Foundation. I'm happy to clarify what
we know of the chronology of events and answer questions reporters might
have.

thank you,
Matthew

-- 

Matthew Roth
Global Communications Manager
Wikimedia Foundation
+1.415.839.6885 ext 6635
www.wikimediafoundation.org
*https://donate.wikimedia.org*


On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Mathieu Stumpf <
psychosl...@culture-libre.org> wrote:

> Le vendredi 05 avril 2013 à 13:44 -0600, Fred Bauder a écrit :
> > Somehow it is important... Streisand effect writ large. Unless somehow it
> > was just a mixup, or a deliberate attempt to put a false target forward.
>
> Or maybe just a test to see how hard it could be to do. Who know. ;)
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Alex Peek]

Call me at 206-304-0703 if you want to talk. I live in Seattle and it is
9:33 pm here


On 5 April 2013 21:32, Alex Peek  wrote:

> All complaints about this project will be respected. I completely
> understand why a certain country or locality would object to data being
> included and this project.
>
> Keep in mind that all pieces of data used in the project must be available
> to the public. I do not understand why there would be an objection when
> data used is freely available.
>
> The current Wikipedia 'Economy of the " pages already feature lots
> of world economic data. This project organizes that data in a legal way.
>
> The whole point of this project is to provide a public good. I do not want
> to offend anyone or do anybody harm. I believe that this project would help
> educated people about the world economy.
>
>
> On 5 April 2013 20:02, Mathieu Stumpf wrote:
>
>> Le vendredi 05 avril 2013 à 13:44 -0600, Fred Bauder a écrit :
>> > Somehow it is important... Streisand effect writ large. Unless somehow
>> it
>> > was just a mixup, or a deliberate attempt to put a false target forward.
>>
>> Or maybe just a test to see how hard it could be to do. Who know. ;)
>>
>> ___
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>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Alex Peek]

All complaints about this project will be respected. I completely
understand why a certain country or locality would object to data being
included and this project.

Keep in mind that all pieces of data used in the project must be available
to the public. I do not understand why there would be an objection when
data used is freely available.

The current Wikipedia 'Economy of the " pages already feature lots
of world economic data. This project organizes that data in a legal way.

The whole point of this project is to provide a public good. I do not want
to offend anyone or do anybody harm. I believe that this project would help
educated people about the world economy.


On 5 April 2013 20:02, Mathieu Stumpf  wrote:

> Le vendredi 05 avril 2013 à 13:44 -0600, Fred Bauder a écrit :
> > Somehow it is important... Streisand effect writ large. Unless somehow it
> > was just a mixup, or a deliberate attempt to put a false target forward.
>
> Or maybe just a test to see how hard it could be to do. Who know. ;)
>
> ___
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> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Mathieu Stumpf]

Le vendredi 05 avril 2013 à 13:44 -0600, Fred Bauder a écrit :
> Somehow it is important... Streisand effect writ large. Unless somehow it
> was just a mixup, or a deliberate attempt to put a false target forward.

Or maybe just a test to see how hard it could be to do. Who know. ;)

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Leonard Wallentin]

Was it an author of the article they contacted, or just a random administrator?
Leo

___Leonard wallentinleo_wallen...@hotmail.com@leo_wallentin+46 (0) 
735 - 933 543

> Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 13:44:57 -0600
> From: fredb...@fairpoint.net
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a 
> Wikipedia article
> 
> Somehow it is important... Streisand effect writ large. Unless somehow it
> was just a mixup, or a deliberate attempt to put a false target forward.
> 
> Fred
> 
> > This is seeming a little silly; it's just a big communications station.
> >  It's got huge radio towers and is very visible on the skyline for a
> > distance.  It's got a civilian radio/TV tower colocated with it.
> >
> > I can't see what would be sensitive in the article..
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Fred Bauder 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Typical. They were not willing to tell our legal counsel why or what
> >> was
> >> classified; she, of course, has no French security clearance; now it is
> >> spread all over an administrators noticeboard, and restored.
> >>
> >> They weren't wrong but neither is our legal counsel or the users; so
> >> "fell between the cracks." Hopefully the matter was not too important;
> >> I'm sure we have enough money to pay for relocating the facility to a
> >> secure location.
> >>
> >> Fred
> >>
> >> > This is where the discussion is happening on-wiki:
> >> >
> >> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Bulletin_des_administrateurs#Secret_d.C3.A9fense
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Fred Bauder 
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hard to know what was involved from the information you provide. The
> >> problem is there is classified information that amounts to nothing and
> >> then there is classified information release of which can cause
> >> serious damage. Defiance will eventually result in serious trouble.
> >> Not that we should knuckle under to nonsense.
> >> >>
> >> >> Fred
> >> >>
> >> >> > Hi there,
> >> >> > I guess you might be interested to hear that Direction Centrale du
> >> Renseignement Intérieur (Central Directorate of Interior
> >> >> Intelligence,
> >> >> > DCRI), a French intelligence agency that reports directly to the
> >> Ministry of the Interior, has apparently forced a French Wikipedia
> >> administrator to delete an article that in their opinion—as I
> >> understand it—revelead classified information deemed very harmful
> >> >> to
> >> >> > the French national defence ("compromission du secret de la
> >> Défense
> >> nationale").
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Interestingly, they contacted the WMF legal team with a request to
> >> remove (delete? suppress?) this article a couple of weeks before
> >> >> that,
> >> >> > but were refused after failing to provide further information on
> >> why
> >> the article should be removed (in the words of a Foundation legal
> >> counsel).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Undounted by that, they approached the said administrator — who
> >> operates under his real name, so I guess it was pretty easy to track
> >> him — and asked him to delete this article, a request which he
> >> obliged. (The article has since been restored by a different
> >> >> > administrator). As far as I understand, the version of the article
> >> they wanted to have deleted was
> >> >> > <https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=81104004>.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I guess that when an intelligence agency asks their citizen to
> >> remove information from Wikipedia citing the penal code (article
> >> 413-11 of the French penal code in this case), it is something worth
> >> sharing
> >> >> (no
> >> >> > harm intended).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Further reading in English:
> >> >> > * <https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=91703508>
> >> *
> >> <https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=91705235>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > Tomasz W.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Fred Bauder]

Somehow it is important... Streisand effect writ large. Unless somehow it
was just a mixup, or a deliberate attempt to put a false target forward.

Fred

> This is seeming a little silly; it's just a big communications station.
>  It's got huge radio towers and is very visible on the skyline for a
> distance.  It's got a civilian radio/TV tower colocated with it.
>
> I can't see what would be sensitive in the article..
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Fred Bauder 
> wrote:
>
>> Typical. They were not willing to tell our legal counsel why or what
>> was
>> classified; she, of course, has no French security clearance; now it is
>> spread all over an administrators noticeboard, and restored.
>>
>> They weren't wrong but neither is our legal counsel or the users; so
>> "fell between the cracks." Hopefully the matter was not too important;
>> I'm sure we have enough money to pay for relocating the facility to a
>> secure location.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>> > This is where the discussion is happening on-wiki:
>> >
>> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Bulletin_des_administrateurs#Secret_d.C3.A9fense
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Fred Bauder 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hard to know what was involved from the information you provide. The
>> problem is there is classified information that amounts to nothing and
>> then there is classified information release of which can cause
>> serious damage. Defiance will eventually result in serious trouble.
>> Not that we should knuckle under to nonsense.
>> >>
>> >> Fred
>> >>
>> >> > Hi there,
>> >> > I guess you might be interested to hear that Direction Centrale du
>> Renseignement Intérieur (Central Directorate of Interior
>> >> Intelligence,
>> >> > DCRI), a French intelligence agency that reports directly to the
>> Ministry of the Interior, has apparently forced a French Wikipedia
>> administrator to delete an article that in their opinion—as I
>> understand it—revelead classified information deemed very harmful
>> >> to
>> >> > the French national defence ("compromission du secret de la
>> Défense
>> nationale").
>> >> >
>> >> > Interestingly, they contacted the WMF legal team with a request to
>> remove (delete? suppress?) this article a couple of weeks before
>> >> that,
>> >> > but were refused after failing to provide further information on
>> why
>> the article should be removed (in the words of a Foundation legal
>> counsel).
>> >> >
>> >> > Undounted by that, they approached the said administrator — who
>> operates under his real name, so I guess it was pretty easy to track
>> him — and asked him to delete this article, a request which he
>> obliged. (The article has since been restored by a different
>> >> > administrator). As far as I understand, the version of the article
>> they wanted to have deleted was
>> >> > .
>> >> >
>> >> > I guess that when an intelligence agency asks their citizen to
>> remove information from Wikipedia citing the penal code (article
>> 413-11 of the French penal code in this case), it is something worth
>> sharing
>> >> (no
>> >> > harm intended).
>> >> >
>> >> > Further reading in English:
>> >> > * 
>> *
>> 
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Tomasz W. Kozłowski
>> >> > a.k.a. [[user:odder]]
>> >> >
>> >> > ___
>> >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> >> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >> > Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> >> Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Matthew Roth
>> > Global Communications Manager
>> > Wikimedia Foundation
>> > +1.415.839.6885 ext 6635
>> > www.wikimediafoundation.org
>> > *https://donate.wikimedia.org*
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> -george william herbert
> george.herb...@gmail.com
>



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[George Herbert]

This is seeming a little silly; it's just a big communications station.
 It's got huge radio towers and is very visible on the skyline for a
distance.  It's got a civilian radio/TV tower colocated with it.

I can't see what would be sensitive in the article..


On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Fred Bauder  wrote:

> Typical. They were not willing to tell our legal counsel why or what was
> classified; she, of course, has no French security clearance; now it is
> spread all over an administrators noticeboard, and restored.
>
> They weren't wrong but neither is our legal counsel or the users; so
> "fell between the cracks." Hopefully the matter was not too important;
> I'm sure we have enough money to pay for relocating the facility to a
> secure location.
>
> Fred
>
> > This is where the discussion is happening on-wiki:
> >
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Bulletin_des_administrateurs#Secret_d.C3.A9fense
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Fred Bauder 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hard to know what was involved from the information you provide. The
> problem is there is classified information that amounts to nothing and
> then there is classified information release of which can cause
> serious damage. Defiance will eventually result in serious trouble.
> Not that we should knuckle under to nonsense.
> >>
> >> Fred
> >>
> >> > Hi there,
> >> > I guess you might be interested to hear that Direction Centrale du
> Renseignement Intérieur (Central Directorate of Interior
> >> Intelligence,
> >> > DCRI), a French intelligence agency that reports directly to the
> Ministry of the Interior, has apparently forced a French Wikipedia
> administrator to delete an article that in their opinion—as I
> understand it—revelead classified information deemed very harmful
> >> to
> >> > the French national defence ("compromission du secret de la Défense
> nationale").
> >> >
> >> > Interestingly, they contacted the WMF legal team with a request to
> remove (delete? suppress?) this article a couple of weeks before
> >> that,
> >> > but were refused after failing to provide further information on why
> the article should be removed (in the words of a Foundation legal
> counsel).
> >> >
> >> > Undounted by that, they approached the said administrator — who
> operates under his real name, so I guess it was pretty easy to track
> him — and asked him to delete this article, a request which he
> obliged. (The article has since been restored by a different
> >> > administrator). As far as I understand, the version of the article
> they wanted to have deleted was
> >> > .
> >> >
> >> > I guess that when an intelligence agency asks their citizen to
> remove information from Wikipedia citing the penal code (article
> 413-11 of the French penal code in this case), it is something worth
> sharing
> >> (no
> >> > harm intended).
> >> >
> >> > Further reading in English:
> >> > *  *
> 
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Tomasz W. Kozłowski
> >> > a.k.a. [[user:odder]]
> >> >
> >> > ___
> >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> >> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Matthew Roth
> > Global Communications Manager
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> > +1.415.839.6885 ext 6635
> > www.wikimediafoundation.org
> > *https://donate.wikimedia.org*
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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>



-- 
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george.herb...@gmail.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Fred Bauder]

Typical. They were not willing to tell our legal counsel why or what was
classified; she, of course, has no French security clearance; now it is
spread all over an administrators noticeboard, and restored.

They weren't wrong but neither is our legal counsel or the users; so
"fell between the cracks." Hopefully the matter was not too important;
I'm sure we have enough money to pay for relocating the facility to a
secure location.

Fred

> This is where the discussion is happening on-wiki:
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Bulletin_des_administrateurs#Secret_d.C3.A9fense
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Fred Bauder 
wrote:
>
>> Hard to know what was involved from the information you provide. The
problem is there is classified information that amounts to nothing and
then there is classified information release of which can cause
serious damage. Defiance will eventually result in serious trouble.
Not that we should knuckle under to nonsense.
>>
>> Fred
>>
>> > Hi there,
>> > I guess you might be interested to hear that Direction Centrale du
Renseignement Intérieur (Central Directorate of Interior
>> Intelligence,
>> > DCRI), a French intelligence agency that reports directly to the
Ministry of the Interior, has apparently forced a French Wikipedia
administrator to delete an article that in their opinion—as I
understand it—revelead classified information deemed very harmful
>> to
>> > the French national defence ("compromission du secret de la Défense
nationale").
>> >
>> > Interestingly, they contacted the WMF legal team with a request to
remove (delete? suppress?) this article a couple of weeks before
>> that,
>> > but were refused after failing to provide further information on why
the article should be removed (in the words of a Foundation legal
counsel).
>> >
>> > Undounted by that, they approached the said administrator — who
operates under his real name, so I guess it was pretty easy to track
him — and asked him to delete this article, a request which he
obliged. (The article has since been restored by a different
>> > administrator). As far as I understand, the version of the article
they wanted to have deleted was
>> > .
>> >
>> > I guess that when an intelligence agency asks their citizen to
remove information from Wikipedia citing the penal code (article
413-11 of the French penal code in this case), it is something worth
sharing
>> (no
>> > harm intended).
>> >
>> > Further reading in English:
>> > *  *

>> >
>> > --
>> > Tomasz W. Kozłowski
>> > a.k.a. [[user:odder]]
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Matthew Roth
> Global Communications Manager
> Wikimedia Foundation
> +1.415.839.6885 ext 6635
> www.wikimediafoundation.org
> *https://donate.wikimedia.org*
>





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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Manuel Schneider]

Am 05.04.2013 20:58, schrieb Yaroslav M. Blanter:
> Do not they have Swiss, Canadian, and Balgian administrators to restore
> the article?

The article actually was restored by someone outside France.


/Manuel
-- 
Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

Do not they have Swiss, Canadian, and Balgian administrators to restore 
the article?


Cheers
Yaroslav

On 05.04.2013 19:41, Tomasz W. Kozłowski wrote:

Hi there,
I guess you might be interested to hear that Direction Centrale du
Renseignement Intérieur (Central Directorate of Interior Intelligence,
DCRI), a French intelligence agency that reports directly to the
Ministry of the Interior, has apparently forced a French Wikipedia
administrator to delete an article that in their opinion—as I
understand it—revelead classified information deemed very harmful to
the French national defence ("compromission du secret de la Défense
nationale").

Interestingly, they contacted the WMF legal team with a request to
remove (delete? suppress?) this article a couple of weeks before that,
but were refused after failing to provide further information on why
the article should be removed (in the words of a Foundation legal
counsel).

Undounted by that, they approached the said administrator — who
operates under his real name, so I guess it was pretty easy to track
him — and asked him to delete this article, a request which he
obliged. (The article has since been restored by a different
administrator). As far as I understand, the version of the article
they wanted to have deleted was
.

I guess that when an intelligence agency asks their citizen to remove
information from Wikipedia citing the penal code (article 413-11 of
the French penal code in this case), it is something worth sharing (no
harm intended).

Further reading in English:
* 
* 


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Matthew Roth]

This is where the discussion is happening on-wiki:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Bulletin_des_administrateurs#Secret_d.C3.A9fense


On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Fred Bauder  wrote:

> Hard to know what was involved from the information you provide. The
> problem is there is classified information that amounts to nothing and
> then there is classified information release of which can cause serious
> damage. Defiance will eventually result in serious trouble. Not that we
> should knuckle under to nonsense.
>
> Fred
>
> > Hi there,
> > I guess you might be interested to hear that Direction Centrale du
> > Renseignement Intérieur (Central Directorate of Interior Intelligence,
> > DCRI), a French intelligence agency that reports directly to the
> > Ministry of the Interior, has apparently forced a French Wikipedia
> > administrator to delete an article that in their opinion—as I
> > understand it—revelead classified information deemed very harmful to
> > the French national defence ("compromission du secret de la Défense
> > nationale").
> >
> > Interestingly, they contacted the WMF legal team with a request to
> > remove (delete? suppress?) this article a couple of weeks before that,
> > but were refused after failing to provide further information on why
> > the article should be removed (in the words of a Foundation legal
> > counsel).
> >
> > Undounted by that, they approached the said administrator — who
> > operates under his real name, so I guess it was pretty easy to track
> > him — and asked him to delete this article, a request which he
> > obliged. (The article has since been restored by a different
> > administrator). As far as I understand, the version of the article
> > they wanted to have deleted was
> > .
> >
> > I guess that when an intelligence agency asks their citizen to remove
> > information from Wikipedia citing the penal code (article 413-11 of
> > the French penal code in this case), it is something worth sharing (no
> > harm intended).
> >
> > Further reading in English:
> > * 
> > * 
> >
> > --
> > Tomasz W. Kozłowski
> > a.k.a. [[user:odder]]
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >
>
>
>
> ___
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-- 

Matthew Roth
Global Communications Manager
Wikimedia Foundation
+1.415.839.6885 ext 6635
www.wikimediafoundation.org
*https://donate.wikimedia.org*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Fred Bauder]

Hard to know what was involved from the information you provide. The
problem is there is classified information that amounts to nothing and
then there is classified information release of which can cause serious
damage. Defiance will eventually result in serious trouble. Not that we
should knuckle under to nonsense.

Fred

> Hi there,
> I guess you might be interested to hear that Direction Centrale du
> Renseignement Intérieur (Central Directorate of Interior Intelligence,
> DCRI), a French intelligence agency that reports directly to the
> Ministry of the Interior, has apparently forced a French Wikipedia
> administrator to delete an article that in their opinion—as I
> understand it—revelead classified information deemed very harmful to
> the French national defence ("compromission du secret de la Défense
> nationale").
>
> Interestingly, they contacted the WMF legal team with a request to
> remove (delete? suppress?) this article a couple of weeks before that,
> but were refused after failing to provide further information on why
> the article should be removed (in the words of a Foundation legal
> counsel).
>
> Undounted by that, they approached the said administrator — who
> operates under his real name, so I guess it was pretty easy to track
> him — and asked him to delete this article, a request which he
> obliged. (The article has since been restored by a different
> administrator). As far as I understand, the version of the article
> they wanted to have deleted was
> .
>
> I guess that when an intelligence agency asks their citizen to remove
> information from Wikipedia citing the penal code (article 413-11 of
> the French penal code in this case), it is something worth sharing (no
> harm intended).
>
> Further reading in English:
> * 
> * 
>
> --
> Tomasz W. Kozłowski
> a.k.a. [[user:odder]]
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>



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[Wikimedia-l] French intelligency agency forces removal of a Wikipedia article

[Tomasz W . Kozłowski]

Hi there,
I guess you might be interested to hear that Direction Centrale du
Renseignement Intérieur (Central Directorate of Interior Intelligence,
DCRI), a French intelligence agency that reports directly to the
Ministry of the Interior, has apparently forced a French Wikipedia
administrator to delete an article that in their opinion—as I
understand it—revelead classified information deemed very harmful to
the French national defence ("compromission du secret de la Défense
nationale").

Interestingly, they contacted the WMF legal team with a request to
remove (delete? suppress?) this article a couple of weeks before that,
but were refused after failing to provide further information on why
the article should be removed (in the words of a Foundation legal
counsel).

Undounted by that, they approached the said administrator — who
operates under his real name, so I guess it was pretty easy to track
him — and asked him to delete this article, a request which he
obliged. (The article has since been restored by a different
administrator). As far as I understand, the version of the article
they wanted to have deleted was
.

I guess that when an intelligence agency asks their citizen to remove
information from Wikipedia citing the penal code (article 413-11 of
the French penal code in this case), it is something worth sharing (no
harm intended).

Further reading in English:
* 
* 

-- 
Tomasz W. Kozłowski
a.k.a. [[user:odder]]

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