Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness

[ENWP Pine]

Have a look at 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Learning_patterns/Safe_space_policy

Making our *online* culture be friendly has turned out to be a big challenge. 
We have lots of due process and vague definitions for civility, so pushing out 
bad actors and keeping good citizens feeling somewhat protected from personal 
attacks can be surprisingly difficult. Not surprisingly, good people leave.

Pine
  
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness

[Everton Zanella Alvarenga]

That seems a really cool presentation Romaine! Thanks for sharing in this
thread. Unfortunately I won't be able to attend Wikimedia this year, but I
hope to see the video from this presentation and the discussions about it
later! :)

Hugs, Tom


2014-05-16 14:13 GMT-03:00 Romaine Wiki :

> Hello all,
>
> I had a discussion with Fabrice about how a culture of Kindness and
> Fabrice also made a submission for Wikimania about it:
> https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/A_Culture_of_Kindness
>
> In the past years I notice very much how easy discussions can go in the
> wrong direction as all the facial expressions and intonation are lost when
> users write a message on a talk page. Many many times this goes wrong, and
> users have a different interpretation of what someone else said what causes
> a fight on the wiki. If users are smart they find out that in fact the
> difference between them is very small with (usually) only a very slight
> difference in focus, but in general they agree with each other, but they
> don't realize that on the moment of the discussion. (If users with good
> will aren't that smart to discover that, such can grow out to a fighting
> situation for many years.) If I estimate I would say at least 50% of all
> troubled discussions are causes by miscommunication as the result of words
> being read differently as result of missing facial expressions and
> intonation what most people are used to have in the communication with
> people around them.
>
> If certain users are deaf, autistic or dyslectic, or have such background,
> this is even worsened.
>
> For some years I say that if I can follow a training to improve textual
> communication to better understand how things are perceived, I really like
> to follow such training. As I don't know of any, I started to figure out
> and collect what communication mistakes are made what cause troubles
> between users with the intention of creating a guide for users, to let them
> understand why some communication gives worse results.
>
> Romaine
>
> --
> Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom)
> Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre
> http://br.okfn.org
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness

[Romaine Wiki]

Hello all,

I had a discussion with Fabrice about how a culture of Kindness and Fabrice 
also made a submission for Wikimania about it: 
https://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/A_Culture_of_Kindness

In the past years I notice very much how easy discussions can go in the wrong 
direction as all the facial expressions and intonation are lost when users 
write a message on a talk page. Many many times this goes wrong, and users have 
a different interpretation of what someone else said what causes a fight on the 
wiki. If users are smart they find out that in fact the difference between them 
is very small with (usually) only a very slight difference in focus, but in 
general they agree with each other, but they don't realize that on the moment 
of the discussion. (If users with good will aren't that smart to discover that, 
such can grow out to a fighting situation for many years.) If I estimate I 
would say at least 50% of all troubled discussions are causes by 
miscommunication as the result of words being read differently as result of 
missing facial expressions and intonation what most people are used to have in 
the communication with people around them.

If certain users are deaf, autistic or dyslectic, or have such background, this 
is even worsened. 

For some years I say that if I can follow a training to improve textual 
communication to better understand how things are perceived, I really like to 
follow such training. As I don't know of any, I started to figure out and 
collect what communication mistakes are made what cause troubles between users 
with the intention of creating a guide for users, to let them understand why 
some communication gives worse results.

Romaine

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness

[Rodrigo Padula]

Good point Asaf :-)


2014-05-15 5:20 GMT-03:00 Asaf Bartov :

> This seems like very good advice, Tom.  Have you tried it?
>
>A.
>
>
> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 6:26 AM, Everton Zanella Alvarenga <
> everton.alvare...@okfn.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I remember once I shared here some thoughts from Dennett on the
> importance
> > of making mistakes<
> > http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/howmista.htm>.
> > Now I saw this article about his new book, *Intuition Pumps And Other
> Tools
> > for Thinking*<
> > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393082067/braipick-20>,
> > and I would like to share here also:
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/
> >
> > "How to compose a successful critical commentary:
> >
> >
> >1. You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly,
> >vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought
> > of
> >putting it that way.
> >2. You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not
> >matters of general or widespread agreement).
> >3. You should mention anything you have learned from your target.
> >4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or
> >criticism."
> >
> >
> > If someone here read it, please, share your impressions. I'm tempted to
> do
> > it.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > --
> > Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom)
> > Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre
> > http://br.okfn.org
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > 
>
>
>
>
> --
> Asaf Bartov
> Wikimedia Foundation 
>
> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
> sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
> https://donate.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness

[Maggie Dennis]

Andy, you seem concerned that people won't take the time to fully read
responses composed this way. I think it's important to get to the point as
well and appreciate the reminder. However, I think it may be possible to
follow the form and keep disagreements brief. :)

Maggie


On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 6:53 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

> On 14 May 2014 14:26, Everton Zanella Alvarenga
>  wrote:
>
> > "How to compose a successful critical commentary [...]"
>
> That strikes me as very long winded, and so not conducive to a
> succinct email exchange.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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-- 
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Senior Community Advocate
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness

[Andy Mabbett]

On 15 May 2014 12:22, Martijn Hoekstra  wrote:
>> > "How to compose a successful critical commentary [...]"
>>
>> That strikes me as very long winded, and so not conducive to a
>> succinct email exchange.
>>
>
> This style of communication is indeed quite longwinded and can be rather
> cumbersome. It also creates somewhat of a mess in mailinglist archives, and
> makes it far more difficult to find the exact point. It can also come
> across as condescending, which can make it counterproductive, and not only
> not worth the trouble, but actively harmful. There are definitely cases
> where this style isn't a good idea. I should try to keep that in mind more
> often.

Thanks for the demonstration.

> That said

Sorry, tl;dr

;-)


-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness

[Fæ]

On 15 May 2014 09:20, Asaf Bartov  wrote:
> This seems like very good advice, Tom.  Have you tried it?

I agree, it sure is great advice. A shorter version is the "management
classic" good news sandwich. Here's a version similar to those you
might see used in emails:

1. Your email was illuminating, we have no doubt that you great
passion and commitment as a Wikimedian.
2. Based on what some might see as disruptive comments, you have been
blocked from the list. There is no appeal process but you can try
writing to the moderators if you wish. I suggest trying in six months
time to expect a reply.
3. The contributions you make to our projects are great. I look
forward to seeing the time you save, being used to be even more
productive!

It's a great technique, nobody can claim that an email structured this
way is unpolite or intended as personal. It could be a bit obvious for
anyone familiar with the classics though...

Thanks everyone for chipping in with their views, nice to see such
varied perspectives.

Related blog: 
http://alexrichardson.co.uk/thoughts-from-the-non-pro-screenwriter-how-to-give-feedback/

Fae
-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness

[Martijn Hoekstra]

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

> On 14 May 2014 14:26, Everton Zanella Alvarenga
>  wrote:
>
> > "How to compose a successful critical commentary [...]"
>
> That strikes me as very long winded, and so not conducive to a
> succinct email exchange.
>

This style of communication is indeed quite longwinded and can be rather
cumbersome. It also creates somewhat of a mess in mailinglist archives, and
makes it far more difficult to find the exact point. It can also come
across as condescending, which can make it counterproductive, and not only
not worth the trouble, but actively harmful. There are definitely cases
where this style isn't a good idea. I should try to keep that in mind more
often.

That said, in other cases it can prevent people putting their heels in the
sand, and lead to more constructive debate, and less arguing. The initially
longer communication style in that case actually saves time (and
frustration) in the longer run. In some ways it can be compared to band-aid
fixes in software design. It might be quicker and easier now, but can lead
to headaches and trouble later. Most (all?) programming best-practices
should sometimes be avoided, and there can be a lively debate on when they
should and shouldn't be ignored. A communication style like this can be
seen as an analogy to a development best practice. Sometimes it's a good
idea, sometimes it adds nothing but hassle, and sometimes its actively
counterproductive and harmful. But it's always worth knowing and
considering, especially since mailinglists don't tend to have an --amend
switch for commits.

--Martijn



> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness

[Dennis Pierri]

This is highly needed, thanks for sharing.

Dennis Pierri

On 14/05/2014, at 08:56, Everton Zanella Alvarenga  
wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I remember once I shared here some thoughts from Dennett on the importance
> of making mistakes.
> Now I saw this article about his new book, *Intuition Pumps And Other Tools
> for Thinking*,
> and I would like to share here also:
> 
> http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/
> 
> "How to compose a successful critical commentary:
> 
> 
>   1. You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly,
>   vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of
>   putting it that way.
>   2. You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not
>   matters of general or widespread agreement).
>   3. You should mention anything you have learned from your target.
>   4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or
>   criticism."
> 
> 
> If someone here read it, please, share your impressions. I'm tempted to do
> it.
> 
> Tom
> 
> -- 
> Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom)
> Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre
> http://br.okfn.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness

[Andy Mabbett]

On 14 May 2014 14:26, Everton Zanella Alvarenga
 wrote:

> "How to compose a successful critical commentary [...]"

That strikes me as very long winded, and so not conducive to a
succinct email exchange.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness

[Asaf Bartov]

This seems like very good advice, Tom.  Have you tried it?

   A.


On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 6:26 AM, Everton Zanella Alvarenga <
everton.alvare...@okfn.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I remember once I shared here some thoughts from Dennett on the importance
> of making mistakes<
> http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/howmista.htm>.
> Now I saw this article about his new book, *Intuition Pumps And Other Tools
> for Thinking*<
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393082067/braipick-20>,
> and I would like to share here also:
>
>
> http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/
>
> "How to compose a successful critical commentary:
>
>
>1. You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly,
>vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought
> of
>putting it that way.
>2. You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not
>matters of general or widespread agreement).
>3. You should mention anything you have learned from your target.
>4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or
>criticism."
>
>
> If someone here read it, please, share your impressions. I'm tempted to do
> it.
>
> Tom
>
> --
> Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom)
> Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre
> http://br.okfn.org
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> 




-- 
Asaf Bartov
Wikimedia Foundation 

Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
https://donate.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness

[Peter Southwood]

Tom,
1. You appear to be trying to convince the members of this list, and possibly 
later by extension, the members of the Wikimedia community, to communicate in a 
less stridently adversarial mode than is currently apparent.
2. I completely agree with all points expressed, and consider Dennett to be 
rather good at expressing himself. Well done for finding this and sharing it 
here.
3. This is a good way of making the point. 
4. Sorry, can't think of any rebuttals or criticism at this point.
Cheers,
Peter
PS. For the cynical - absolutely no irony intended.

-Original Message-
From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Everton Zanella 
Alvarenga
Sent: 14 May 2014 03:27 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness

Hi,

I remember once I shared here some thoughts from Dennett on the importance of 
making mistakes<http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/howmista.htm>.
Now I saw this article about his new book, *Intuition Pumps And Other Tools for 
Thinking*<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393082067/braipick-20>,
and I would like to share here also:

http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/

"How to compose a successful critical commentary:


   1. You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly,
   vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of
   putting it that way.
   2. You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not
   matters of general or widespread agreement).
   3. You should mention anything you have learned from your target.
   4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or
   criticism."


If someone here read it, please, share your impressions. I'm tempted to do it.

Tom

--
Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom)
Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre http://br.okfn.org 
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[Wikimedia-l] How to Criticize with Kindness

[Everton Zanella Alvarenga]

Hi,

I remember once I shared here some thoughts from Dennett on the importance
of making mistakes.
Now I saw this article about his new book, *Intuition Pumps And Other Tools
for Thinking*,
and I would like to share here also:

http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/

"How to compose a successful critical commentary:


   1. You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly,
   vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of
   putting it that way.
   2. You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not
   matters of general or widespread agreement).
   3. You should mention anything you have learned from your target.
   4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or
   criticism."


If someone here read it, please, share your impressions. I'm tempted to do
it.

Tom

-- 
Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom)
Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre
http://br.okfn.org
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