Re: [Wikimedia-l] Réponse à Samuel Legoff, président de Wikimédia France / Answer to Samuel Legoff, president of Wikimedia France

[Yann Forget]

Hi,

Thanks Thierry for your detailed mail.
I was also thinking to write the board of Wikimedia France regarding the
ongoing crisis.
But your mail expresses my opinion quite well.

The blindness of board members facing the critics is stunning.
The vain and counterproductive attempts of censorship by moderating the
mailing list and then deleting it seem to be from an old past.
The unjustified removal of certain critical members is also unacceptable.
I still hope that the Board will come back on these decisions before it is
too late.

Regards,

Yann Forget

===
Bonjour,

Merci Thierry pour ce mail long et détaillé.

Je m'apprêtais justement à écrire au CA concernant la crise actuelle que
traverse Wikimédia France.
Mais ton mail remplace avantageusement celui que j'aurais pu faire.

L'aveuglement des membres du CA devant les critiques est sidérant.
Les tentatives vaines et contre-productives de censure en modérant la liste
de discussion, puis en la supprimant semblent d'un autre temps.
La radiation sans motif valable de certains adhérents critiques est aussi
inacceptables.
J'espère encore que le CA reviendra sur ces décisions avant qu'il ne soit
trop tard.

Cordialement,

Yann Forget


Le 18 juillet 2017 à 04:32, Thierry Coudray  a écrit :

> Hello folks,
>
> It has been a long time since I have written on this list. More than for 4
> years. And I thought I would never write again especially about Wikimedia
> France.
>
> For those who do not know me, I'm a former board member, treasurer
> (2010-2011) and executive director (2012) of Wikimedia France, a current HR
> consultant and a quite long time Wikipedian (2005, user:TCY), a project I'm
> still involved and which I care.
>
> During those last weeks former WMFr employees,  WMFr members, even some I
> do not know, have contacted me to know if I'm aware of the current WMFr
> situation, to find out what I think about it and to find out what to do as
> well. If it's gratifying to be recognised, both for my skills and the work
> I have done for WMFr  in the light of my  hasty departure of Wikimedia
> France in december 2012, I stayed deliberately away. First because I have a
> duty of reserve and, for my part, I've strictly followed it. But especially
> because I've turned the page of Wikimedia France even if I had to
> restrain myself
> when I saw what had happened to the great salaried team I had managed.
>
> But a number of things made me think:
> - the latest developments of what could unfortunately be called the WMFr
> affair or WMFrGate with the revolt of many members  facing Wikimedia France
> adrift,
> - the risk of a divorce between French wikipedian community and Wikimedia
> France with the resentment of some WP editors (for example, a call for a
> boycott, fortunatly not yet significant, for the next fundraising which a
> part funds Wikimedia France) and while a national chapter is useful to
> support Wikimedia subjetcs.
> - but above all, the risk that the Wikipedia in French will be damaged when
> this affair will be released to the media. And it will be, I've already
> been contacted by two journalists  (I did not speak with any of them : one
> I really trusted but we did not find the time between our busy schedules
> for sharing, and the other one, I did not trust her and I ignored her phone
> call).
>
> The recent and staggering Samuell Legoff's e-mail convinced me to break my
> four year silence.
>
> I will answer  the e-mail in a kind of "open answer" . I would have
> prefered to post to Wikimedia France mailing list but this list is closed
> for the next 10 days and the WMFr member which has accepted to forward it,
> told me, even with the list opened again, my e-mail would have been
> censored. As Samuel's e-mail has been forwarded, translated and subjected
> to a great deal of comments on this list and many WMFr members are on it, I
> have chosen to publish it here, the only Wikimedia list I'm still on. As
> Florence Devouard, Christophe Henner, Chris Keating, Mike Peel and Itzik
> Edri are also mentionned in my e-mail, it seems correct they are informed.
>
> Sorry answer below to Samuel is in French. I am not fluent enough in
> English for a quick translation and my answer is quite long. But I wanted
> it to be exhaustive and accurate face to all Samuel's statements. I am
> correcting many errors Samuel has made when he speaks about French labor
> law, non profit associations law, HR and management to support the WMFr
> board decisions. I am pointing out what I considered not ethical or wrong
> past board or ED decisions. I am giving  some specific ways in which the HR
> management, governance and ethics could be improved regarding my HR and
> Wikimedia background and last but not least I am trying to explain to
> Samuel and to the WMFr board how much they are mistaken in their
> authoritarian and lack of transparency attitude and locked in a conspiracy
> theory about the FDC decision.
>
> In order to provide 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Réponse à Samuel Legoff, président de Wikimédia France / Answer to Samuel Legoff, president of Wikimedia France

[Natacha Rault]

Bonjour,

Merci pour ce long (et éclairant mail) qui nous sort de l'atmosphère délétère  
des menaces de poursuites judiciaires en nous faisant entrevoir la légalité de 
la libre expression! 

J'ai reçu un mail du CA m'informant que la raison de mon expulsion de 
l'association est le fait d'avoir tweeté avec les hashtag "#wmfrgate". 
Je pense que dans la situation actuelle de censure des listes de discussions, 
les membres et la communauté avaient le droit de savoir ce qui ce passe.

L'autre chose qui m'est reproché par le président, c'est de faire partie d'une 
bande de harceleurs - qu'il refuse de nommer - et d'en coordonner l'action.

Je me permet de relever la dernière phrase de ton mail qui me semble 
importante: 

> "je
> suggère que toi, Samuel, en tant que président de Wikimédia France tu
> permettes à tout ancien ou actuel salarié de pouvoir témoigner librement,
> donc de délivrer de la clause de confidentialité ceux qui en ont signé et
> que tu t'engages formellement à ce qu'aucun salarié actuel ou passé ne
> subisse de mesures de rétorsion suite au témoignage qu'il pourrait faire
> devant les auditeurs."

À ceci on devrait ajouter, pour le président, la garantie qu'il sera assisté et 
soutenu s'il 
reprend fermement et rapidement la fonction RH. Je ne doute pas qu'il ai 
essayé, il faut qu'il persévère, et il ne peut pas y arriver seul. 


Bonne journée,

Natacha / Nattes à chat






> Le 18 juil. 2017 à 04:32, Thierry Coudray  a écrit :
> 
> Hello folks,
> 
> It has been a long time since I have written on this list. More than for 4
> years. And I thought I would never write again especially about Wikimedia
> France.
> 
> For those who do not know me, I'm a former board member, treasurer
> (2010-2011) and executive director (2012) of Wikimedia France, a current HR
> consultant and a quite long time Wikipedian (2005, user:TCY), a project I'm
> still involved and which I care.
> 
> During those last weeks former WMFr employees,  WMFr members, even some I
> do not know, have contacted me to know if I'm aware of the current WMFr
> situation, to find out what I think about it and to find out what to do as
> well. If it's gratifying to be recognised, both for my skills and the work
> I have done for WMFr  in the light of my  hasty departure of Wikimedia
> France in december 2012, I stayed deliberately away. First because I have a
> duty of reserve and, for my part, I've strictly followed it. But especially
> because I've turned the page of Wikimedia France even if I had to
> restrain myself
> when I saw what had happened to the great salaried team I had managed.
> 
> But a number of things made me think:
> - the latest developments of what could unfortunately be called the WMFr
> affair or WMFrGate with the revolt of many members  facing Wikimedia France
> adrift,
> - the risk of a divorce between French wikipedian community and Wikimedia
> France with the resentment of some WP editors (for example, a call for a
> boycott, fortunatly not yet significant, for the next fundraising which a
> part funds Wikimedia France) and while a national chapter is useful to
> support Wikimedia subjetcs.
> - but above all, the risk that the Wikipedia in French will be damaged when
> this affair will be released to the media. And it will be, I've already
> been contacted by two journalists  (I did not speak with any of them : one
> I really trusted but we did not find the time between our busy schedules
> for sharing, and the other one, I did not trust her and I ignored her phone
> call).
> 
> The recent and staggering Samuell Legoff's e-mail convinced me to break my
> four year silence.
> 
> I will answer  the e-mail in a kind of "open answer" . I would have
> prefered to post to Wikimedia France mailing list but this list is closed
> for the next 10 days and the WMFr member which has accepted to forward it,
> told me, even with the list opened again, my e-mail would have been
> censored. As Samuel's e-mail has been forwarded, translated and subjected
> to a great deal of comments on this list and many WMFr members are on it, I
> have chosen to publish it here, the only Wikimedia list I'm still on. As
> Florence Devouard, Christophe Henner, Chris Keating, Mike Peel and Itzik
> Edri are also mentionned in my e-mail, it seems correct they are informed.
> 
> Sorry answer below to Samuel is in French. I am not fluent enough in
> English for a quick translation and my answer is quite long. But I wanted
> it to be exhaustive and accurate face to all Samuel's statements. I am
> correcting many errors Samuel has made when he speaks about French labor
> law, non profit associations law, HR and management to support the WMFr
> board decisions. I am pointing out what I considered not ethical or wrong
> past board or ED decisions. I am giving  some specific ways in which the HR
> management, governance and ethics could be improved regarding my HR and
> Wikimedia background and last but not least I am trying 

[Wikimedia-l] Réponse à Samuel Legoff, président de Wikimédia France / Answer to Samuel Legoff, president of Wikimedia France

[Thierry Coudray]

Hello folks,

It has been a long time since I have written on this list. More than for 4
years. And I thought I would never write again especially about Wikimedia
France.

For those who do not know me, I'm a former board member, treasurer
(2010-2011) and executive director (2012) of Wikimedia France, a current HR
consultant and a quite long time Wikipedian (2005, user:TCY), a project I'm
still involved and which I care.

During those last weeks former WMFr employees,  WMFr members, even some I
do not know, have contacted me to know if I'm aware of the current WMFr
situation, to find out what I think about it and to find out what to do as
well. If it's gratifying to be recognised, both for my skills and the work
I have done for WMFr  in the light of my  hasty departure of Wikimedia
France in december 2012, I stayed deliberately away. First because I have a
duty of reserve and, for my part, I've strictly followed it. But especially
because I've turned the page of Wikimedia France even if I had to
restrain myself
when I saw what had happened to the great salaried team I had managed.

But a number of things made me think:
- the latest developments of what could unfortunately be called the WMFr
affair or WMFrGate with the revolt of many members  facing Wikimedia France
adrift,
- the risk of a divorce between French wikipedian community and Wikimedia
France with the resentment of some WP editors (for example, a call for a
boycott, fortunatly not yet significant, for the next fundraising which a
part funds Wikimedia France) and while a national chapter is useful to
support Wikimedia subjetcs.
- but above all, the risk that the Wikipedia in French will be damaged when
this affair will be released to the media. And it will be, I've already
been contacted by two journalists  (I did not speak with any of them : one
I really trusted but we did not find the time between our busy schedules
for sharing, and the other one, I did not trust her and I ignored her phone
call).

The recent and staggering Samuell Legoff's e-mail convinced me to break my
four year silence.

I will answer  the e-mail in a kind of "open answer" . I would have
prefered to post to Wikimedia France mailing list but this list is closed
for the next 10 days and the WMFr member which has accepted to forward it,
told me, even with the list opened again, my e-mail would have been
censored. As Samuel's e-mail has been forwarded, translated and subjected
to a great deal of comments on this list and many WMFr members are on it, I
have chosen to publish it here, the only Wikimedia list I'm still on. As
Florence Devouard, Christophe Henner, Chris Keating, Mike Peel and Itzik
Edri are also mentionned in my e-mail, it seems correct they are informed.

Sorry answer below to Samuel is in French. I am not fluent enough in
English for a quick translation and my answer is quite long. But I wanted
it to be exhaustive and accurate face to all Samuel's statements. I am
correcting many errors Samuel has made when he speaks about French labor
law, non profit associations law, HR and management to support the WMFr
board decisions. I am pointing out what I considered not ethical or wrong
past board or ED decisions. I am giving  some specific ways in which the HR
management, governance and ethics could be improved regarding my HR and
Wikimedia background and last but not least I am trying to explain to
Samuel and to the WMFr board how much they are mistaken in their
authoritarian and lack of transparency attitude and locked in a conspiracy
theory about the FDC decision.

In order to provide transparency and because I would like the Foundation
audit can go smoothly, I suggest Samuel to formaly encourage any former or
current WMFr employees to freely testify so to release them of any
confidentiality
agreement they could have signed and to formally make the commitment that
no one will undergo retaliatory measures.

As the primary recipients of my answer are WMFr members, if someone on this
list could forward my answers as many WMFr members as possible, it would be
great.

For those who do not read the beautiful French language, I will try to
translate this next few days but, regarding my burden of work, without
guarantee.

Regards.

Thierry


-

Samuel,


Ces dernières semaines, d'anciens salariés et des membres ou anciens
membres de l'association, dont certains que je ne connaissais pas, m'ont
contacté pour me demander si j'étais au courant de la situation actuelle de
Wikimédia France, savoir ce que j'en pensais et selon moi ce qu'il faudrait
faire. Si cela est flatteur d'être ainsi reconnu pour ses compétences et le
travail que j'avais accompli pour Wikimedia France au regard de mon départ
précipité fin 2012, je restais volontairement en retrait. D'abord parce que
j'étais tenu à un devoir de réserve et que je m'y suis, moi, strictement
conformé mais surtout j'avais tourné la page de Wikimédia France même si
j'avais du me retenir pour ne pas intervenir face à ce qui était