Re: [Wikimediach-l] (no subject)
Le mer 25/02/09 11:55, "Michael Bimmler" mbimm...@gmail.com a écrit: > > This is not really great to speak about this topic > again this year... but what I can say is that this decision to make a > member only wiki was by Wikimedia France a good one an the most efficient > to help members to work with each other (i.e. not only board members are > doing something). > > > That's a good point. But then, why can't this collaboration happen on > http://www.wikimedia.ch? Why do we need an > access-restricted memberswiki for that, as long as it doesn't involve > confidential > information? Because between high-confidential (board available only) and world-wide public infos, they are a bunch of middle cases. This is a list of such topics inspired from the french member wiki "recent changes": * List of people ready to make fotos (with private informations, to be sponsored by Wikimedia France) * Multiple discussion about the next general assembly (attending list, rules change proposition, board candidatures, etc...) * Personal pages with personal informations (tel, region, etc) to simplify collaboration between members * Multiple informations about the last foundraising and discussions about the future one * Project with possible partner evaluations * Montly IRC meeting logs * Voting page about another project proposition * Organisation of a meeting with lot of details about it * Annual report draft ... in my opinion much of these cases can not take place in our wiki. Emmanuel ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] "private" wiki for members?
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Nico Ray wrote: > > In both cases, I don't really care whenever the publishing web site is a > Wiki, a CMS, a blog or whatever else... I just would like to ensure a minimum > of security and data protection, together with the freedom and ability for > all concerned people to perform changes or modifications. > > Nico Ok, you know the current picture. It's your choice to accept if a simple login or password could be acceptable. Reading this last sentence it seems to me that the *minimum* protection assured by Mediawiki can be acceptable and the access to these data of other members and/or participants to projects is not a problem. Is it? Ilario ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] "private" wiki for members?
Maybe it's the good time to take two real-life examples : * I got by mail the name and phone from somebody at the Chancelleries' of Vaud who is the contact person for us in the frame of having official pictures published on a free license. My problem is the following : I don't feel about publishing these data to an open web site (whatever it is), but on the other hand, I would like to ensure that somebody else could follow-up if needed. * In the frame of a new project (...more news to come at the General assembly...), we had to share a lot of information and data between around 10 people, but we wanted to keep it "hidden" from the rest of the world. In both cases, I don't really care whenever the publishing web site is a Wiki, a CMS, a blog or whatever else... I just would like to ensure a minimum of security and data protection, together with the freedom and ability for all concerned people to perform changes or modifications. Nico - Message d'origine - De: Ilario Valdelli Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 13:18:21 +0100 Sujet: Re: [Wikimediach-l] "private" wiki for members? À: Mailing list for Wikimedia CH >On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Frederic Schutz wrote: >> >> Because Mediawiki was developed for open-access projects such as >> Wikipedia, which does require only very little control access for >> reading (e.g. deletion, oversight). >> > >This is correct. > >Which is the difference between a Wiki and a Content Management >System? First of all a flatten "level of access" (one or two different >type of access) and for this reason "no workflow" (no approval, no >publishing process). > >In a wiki only the status of user logged in/logged out is assured, any >other functionality to manage users is not a must for a wiki. > >Ilario > >___ >http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website >Wikimediach-l mailing list >https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l > ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] "private" wiki for members?
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Frederic Schutz wrote: > > Because Mediawiki was developed for open-access projects such as > Wikipedia, which does require only very little control access for > reading (e.g. deletion, oversight). > This is correct. Which is the difference between a Wiki and a Content Management System? First of all a flatten "level of access" (one or two different type of access) and for this reason "no workflow" (no approval, no publishing process). In a wiki only the status of user logged in/logged out is assured, any other functionality to manage users is not a must for a wiki. Ilario ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] "private" wiki for members?
Patrick Kenel wrote: > Good summary, Ilario. My question: Why is it difficult with Mediawiki? Because Mediawiki was developed for open-access projects such as Wikipedia, which does require only very little control access for reading (e.g. deletion, oversight). Several extensions have been created to control access, but since the core software has not been designed with this kind of security in mind, and there are many potential ways to get information out of the system, so it is very hard to guarantee that they work as intended. This is, as far as I know, the "official" position of the developers. It does not say anything about whether these extensions would work well enough in practice, nor if they would fit any of our needs. You can have a look at the following pages for more information: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Restricting_access http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Security_issues_with_authorization_extensions For what it's worth, we use Mediawiki at work and decided to create different closed wikis for each project. We first tried to use another wiki system that is better at restricting access, but people were confused by the different syntaxes (either because they contribute to Wikipedia, or because they collaborate with other people who use Mediawiki), so we switched to Mediawiki. We have ~10 active wikis and it works ok, but it could easily become a nightmare if people start having to share information from one project to another... Frédéric ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] "private" wiki for members?
Good summary, Ilario. My question: Why is it difficult with Mediawiki? Patrick > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:11:51 +0100 > From: valde...@gmail.com > To: wikimediach-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [Wikimediach-l] "private" wiki for members? > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Manuel Schneider > wrote: > > > > I like to mention that WM CH already _had_ a members wiki for around two > > years > > and it was abandoned, that's why we restructured the sites how they are now. > > This was a board decision. > > > > What Manuel has said is correct and I hope to *don't* reopen > members.wikimedia.ch. > > I would summarize the decision also for members who has not been > informed about this decision. In this case they can make their own > opinion. > > At start three websites: > * www.wikimedia.ch > * members.wikimedia.ch > * board.wikimedia.ch > > There was no sense because was very difficult to update three websites > in 4 languages and the board asked to have this distinction: > * www.wikimedia.ch (without login) - official website > * www.wikimedia.ch (with login) - website to coordinate members and to > have internal communication in substitution of members.wikimedia.ch > * board.wikimedia.ch (without login) - communication of board to external > * board.wikimedia.ch (with login) - to coordinate board's jobs > > What Michael is saying has a sense... we need to have another website > for projects because it should give access to participants of projects > which cannot be members. > > We have had in the past some exceptions for example for Dani Boos to > give him access in the board.wikimedia.ch during the Bern's Wikipedia > Day, but we hope in the future to proceed without exceptions. > > For this reason the idea of Michael has a sense and we hope to have a > subdomain to manage all projects, probably with "different levels of > access" but we know that it's difficult to manage them with Mediawiki. > > My personal opinion (but it's personal) I would give access to all > users of this "Wikilab" or "Wikiprojects" to all pages because they > can have a look in each projects and also decide to participate to > them. > > Ilario > > ___ > http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website > Wikimediach-l mailing list > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l _ Werden Sie Mitglied der neuen Windows Live Messenger Familie! http://download.live.com___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] "private" wiki for members?
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Manuel Schneider wrote: > > I like to mention that WM CH already _had_ a members wiki for around two years > and it was abandoned, that's why we restructured the sites how they are now. > This was a board decision. > What Manuel has said is correct and I hope to *don't* reopen members.wikimedia.ch. I would summarize the decision also for members who has not been informed about this decision. In this case they can make their own opinion. At start three websites: * www.wikimedia.ch * members.wikimedia.ch * board.wikimedia.ch There was no sense because was very difficult to update three websites in 4 languages and the board asked to have this distinction: * www.wikimedia.ch (without login) - official website * www.wikimedia.ch (with login) - website to coordinate members and to have internal communication in substitution of members.wikimedia.ch * board.wikimedia.ch (without login) - communication of board to external * board.wikimedia.ch (with login) - to coordinate board's jobs What Michael is saying has a sense... we need to have another website for projects because it should give access to participants of projects which cannot be members. We have had in the past some exceptions for example for Dani Boos to give him access in the board.wikimedia.ch during the Bern's Wikipedia Day, but we hope in the future to proceed without exceptions. For this reason the idea of Michael has a sense and we hope to have a subdomain to manage all projects, probably with "different levels of access" but we know that it's difficult to manage them with Mediawiki. My personal opinion (but it's personal) I would give access to all users of this "Wikilab" or "Wikiprojects" to all pages because they can have a look in each projects and also decide to participate to them. Ilario ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] (no subject)
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:42 AM, wrote: > Le mer 25/02/09 11:26, Frederic Schutz frederic.sch...@wikimedia.ch a écrit: >> - this does not allow to easily provide access to non-members who are >> interested in contributing to a particular project (if someone is >> motivated to contribute, it probably does not make sense to force him >> to become a member) > > ...encourage him to be member and in worth case ask for an exception to the > wiki admin. Hm... In some projects (especially technical ones, eg. let's say WikiReader projects, or projects which involve a lot of cooperation with like-minded persons), third persons would have to be able to get access and in many cases they might not want to become members (for example, because they don't even live in Switzerland). Now, what do we do with them? Make an exception for all of them? Okay, sure. But then, we'll have dozens of exceptionsso why should we make it members-only in the first instance? > >> - on the other hand, if one is working on a particular project >> involving contact names, does it make sense to automatically give >> access to anyone just because they are members of Wikimedia CH ? (*) > > We have to trust each other, rules can be done to avoid deviant behaviours. > I think all of the board members are committed to transparency, and we put as much information as possible on our general and public website. If we think that something should not be on a public website and google-indexable, it is for a reason. However, in that case it does not make much sense to allow all members access to it either... We already now have 70+ members, many of whom we do not know personally, that is, we have only received their online or offline registration form, that's it. Two things: a) How am I supposed to trust any person who I just know from filling out a form? Sure, assume good faith, but I'm unwilling to disclose really confidential information to a person just by Assume Good Faith. And if it wasn't confidential, I would make it public anyway. b) If you disclose something to an audience of more than 70 people, you can just as well make it public, because the chances of it "leaking" approach 1 exponentially... I think we should have more fine-grained access structures than just "a wiki for all members". >> Or, in one word: it is inflexible. Unfortunately, as Rupert mentioned, >> Mediawiki is not ideal for restricting access in a finer-grained way >> than "member/not member". So how can we improve on this ? > > A flexible admin is enough IMO and in any case the most critical infos > (password, member list) are not in the wiki. > Personal infos about members should not be in the wiki if the member is not > agree (he has to put them himself). > Of course! We don't even need to discuss this -- that is a requirement of the Swiss Federal Law on Data Protection: we cannot just make individual members' data available to all members without all members' consent, that would violate the law... (for the record, currently only board members and auditors have read access to the details of members) > This is not really great to speak about this topic again this year... but > what I can say is that this decision to make a member only wiki was by > Wikimedia France a good one an the most efficient to help members to work > with each other (i.e. not only board members are doing something). > That's a good point. But then, why can't this collaboration happen on http://www.wikimedia.ch? Why do we need an access-restricted memberswiki for that, as long as it doesn't involve confidential information? Regards, Michael -- Michael Bimmler mbimm...@gmail.com ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] (no subject)
Le mer 25/02/09 11:26, Frederic Schutz frederic.sch...@wikimedia.ch a écrit: > - this does not allow to easily provide access to non-members who are > interested in contributing to a particular project (if someone is > motivated to contribute, it probably does not make sense to force him > to become a member) ...encourage him to be member and in worth case ask for an exception to the wiki admin. > - on the other hand, if one is working on a particular project > involving contact names, does it make sense to automatically give > access to anyone just because they are members of Wikimedia CH ? (*) We have to trust each other, rules can be done to avoid deviant behaviours. > Or, in one word: it is inflexible. Unfortunately, as Rupert mentioned, > Mediawiki is not ideal for restricting access in a finer-grained way > than "member/not member". So how can we improve on this ? A flexible admin is enough IMO and in any case the most critical infos (password, member list) are not in the wiki. Personal infos about members should not be in the wiki if the member is not agree (he has to put them himself). This is not really great to speak about this topic again this year... but what I can say is that this decision to make a member only wiki was by Wikimedia France a good one an the most efficient to help members to work with each other (i.e. not only board members are doing something). Emmanuel ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] (no subject)
emman...@engelhart.org wrote: > Le mer 25/02/09 09:59, "THURNER rupert" rupert.thur...@wikimedia.ch a écrit: >> 1. http://members.wikimedia.ch > a dedicated members wiki, somebody does theh user registration as long >> there is no automatic way > > The best choice IMO. > Works good at Wikimedia France. This was my favourite choice, too, but the problems that we discussed about this approach were: - this does not allow to easily provide access to non-members who are interested in contributing to a particular project (if someone is motivated to contribute, it probably does not make sense to force him to become a member) - on the other hand, if one is working on a particular project involving contact names, does it make sense to automatically give access to anyone just because they are members of Wikimedia CH ? (*) Or, in one word: it is inflexible. Unfortunately, as Rupert mentioned, Mediawiki is not ideal for restricting access in a finer-grained way than "member/not member". So how can we improve on this ? At the moment, for the particular project we were discussing, we created a wiki on another server, but this does not scale very well. Frédéric (*) I have had the problem where I was discussing by email with someone, trying to get some content released under a free license, when someone uninvoled jumped in the discussion to give his opinion -- no need to say that I did not like this, and it did not make us look good -- so I am a bit wary about wide access for contact data (for the record, it was not someone from WM CH or living in CH). ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] "private" wiki for members?
I like to mention that WM CH already _had_ a members wiki for around two years and it was abandoned, that's why we restructured the sites how they are now. This was a board decision. Am Mittwoch, 25. Februar 2009 10:43:55 schrieb Nico Ray: > Hi, > > I would be in favoir of the first option, which, as far as I know, is the > one in place for other local chapters (fr at least) > > Nico > > > > - Message d'origine - > De: THURNER rupert > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 09:59:47 +0100 > Sujet: [Wikimediach-l] "private" wiki for members? > À: wikimediach-l@lists.wikimedia.org > hi, > > frederic proposed, that projects should have a possibility to use our > wiki(s) and anyway hide information from the general public. an > example would be lists of persons to contact with phone numbers. > > the ideal case would be a wiki which supports access control lists, > like http://moinmo.in/HelpOnAccessControlLists does. > > for mediawiki i am a little clueless what the best solution might be. > what possibilities would we have, and which one would you favour? > > 1. http://members.wikimedia.ch > a dedicated members wiki, somebody does theh user registration as long > there is no automatic way > > 2. http://wikimedia.ch with hiddenwiki > patch our current wiki with > http://sourceforge.net/projects/hiddenwiki/, which would allow to hide > away namespaces > viewable only to users with special rights. > > 3. ?? > > kr, rupert. > > ___ > http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website > Wikimediach-l mailing list > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l > > > > ___ > http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website > Wikimediach-l mailing list > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l -- - Master's SYSTEMS Webhosting & Servermanagement Scheffelstrasse 1 79585 Steinen Manuel Schneider Tel: +49 7627 924555 Fax: +49 7627 924557 m.schnei...@masterssystems.de http://www.masterssystems.de --- ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] (no subject)
Le mer 25/02/09 09:59, "THURNER rupert" rupert.thur...@wikimedia.ch a écrit: > 1. http://members.wikimedia.ch a dedicated members wiki, somebody does theh user registration as long > there is no automatic way The best choice IMO. Works good at Wikimedia France. Emmanuel ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] "private" wiki for members?
Hi, I would be in favoir of the first option, which, as far as I know, is the one in place for other local chapters (fr at least) Nico - Message d'origine - De: THURNER rupert Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 09:59:47 +0100 Sujet: [Wikimediach-l] "private" wiki for members? À: wikimediach-l@lists.wikimedia.org hi, frederic proposed, that projects should have a possibility to use our wiki(s) and anyway hide information from the general public. an example would be lists of persons to contact with phone numbers. the ideal case would be a wiki which supports access control lists, like http://moinmo.in/HelpOnAccessControlLists does. for mediawiki i am a little clueless what the best solution might be. what possibilities would we have, and which one would you favour? 1. http://members.wikimedia.ch a dedicated members wiki, somebody does theh user registration as long there is no automatic way 2. http://wikimedia.ch with hiddenwiki patch our current wiki with http://sourceforge.net/projects/hiddenwiki/, which would allow to hide away namespaces viewable only to users with special rights. 3. ?? kr, rupert. ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
[Wikimediach-l] "private" wiki for members?
hi, frederic proposed, that projects should have a possibility to use our wiki(s) and anyway hide information from the general public. an example would be lists of persons to contact with phone numbers. the ideal case would be a wiki which supports access control lists, like http://moinmo.in/HelpOnAccessControlLists does. for mediawiki i am a little clueless what the best solution might be. what possibilities would we have, and which one would you favour? 1. http://members.wikimedia.ch a dedicated members wiki, somebody does theh user registration as long there is no automatic way 2. http://wikimedia.ch with hiddenwiki patch our current wiki with http://sourceforge.net/projects/hiddenwiki/, which would allow to hide away namespaces viewable only to users with special rights. 3. ?? kr, rupert. ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
