Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikipedia to be free on mobiles in Africa, Middle East (SciDev.net)
Hi Barry I have to say I'm a bit surprised reading this mail from you. I really don't care about what the issue is, and what side you or anyone is, but this is not the way to address and answer feedback and queries that I've heard from others a hundred times. This is not the kind of professional tone I expected from you, some of your inline responses are uncharacteristic of you. You conflicted yourself questioning Ashwin's definition of "sincerity", and then ending the email with "I don't doubt your sincerity..", It seems you do. You question Ashwin's insight and motivation. I haven't read a single thing in Ashwin's email that I already didn't hear from others over the years, even before you were hired, on what the IP should focus on, what should it do, etc.. Those are still common points, and general feedback. I fail to see what provoked this kind of response. I don't know about Ashwin but I would have expected an apology after that. I took umbrage with a couple of things you said, and how you said them. My responses inline are in reaction to yours. On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 11:37 PM, Barry Newstead wrote: > Who really cares, seriously! The purpose of any list is to share > information openly and encourage community members to participate. It is > not a credit taking exercise. > Err...You should? Someone from IP attended Wikimania and the chapters meeting last year, why not add those to the list, or the ones from 2004. Global south has been the rallying cry for WMF fundraising for a few years, is this how that focus is going to get translated into? by blurring the lines between where the money is actually going. I'm not sure about your community organizing experience, but these events take a bit of effort to organize and put on, to just have them claimed by someone else, is not in the good spirit of things either. > > If you look more deeply, you'll see the IP team is doing work that helps > move us forward. They aren't simply replicating what the community can do > (note: I will still take issue with the point that there is some invisible > community being held back from doing copious amounts of outreach or other > work because the IP team is crowding out their activity). I think the > value that the IP team can and is bringing is more about the overall > support of outreach and the improvement of outreach work to increase > impact. The sad fact about a lot of outreach work is that it doesn't > produce that much community growth in its current form. Ask yourself > honestly, Ashwin, how much has your Pune community grown as a result of > your excellent and dedicated efforts to conducting outreach? What Nitika > (yes, I think it should be clear to all that she is working hard on this) > is doing is really investigating the efficacy of outreach and trying to > identify things that will improve the results for the tireless work that > you and other community members are doing. The link that I pointed to has > a handbook for outreach that is evolving and would benefit from a > collaborative, wiki-style partnership to share learning in which Nitika > can be the facilitator and doer of the heavy work. In addition, Nitika and > Subhashish in partnership with the Global Development research team is > piloting a tool that will help with follow-up after events with attendees > to encourage actual editing. The tool also allows us to measure whether > attendees ever actually edit. This is a small pilot that they are > investing a lot of time in and has the potential to dramatically improve > outreach (or tell us conclusively that it is not an effective way to build > community, which I hope isn't true). IMO this is the kind of work that > adds real value to the community and will help us achieve our shared > mission in India. > > See, there is a difference, it is not Ashwin's *job*. By your own admission the spending within India has not been able to achieve any growth. Ashwin is a community member, who got even a laggard like me to edit an India related article for his collaboration. WMF didn't raise money in the name of Global south, to have it fall on Ashwin to be responsible for the growth - That's just you. > Thanks for the advice. I think that is already largely the case. Nitika is > the main resource focused on outreach with some support from Subhashish. > Hisham involves himself as the manager of the work and has been > instrumental in guiding us toward a more analytical and learning-oriented > approach that we hope will be fruitful. > > Thanks. He is indeed focused here and is doing excellent work. It is > useful to note that he partners very closely with Hisham, who provides a > lot of silent support and guidance and gets useful input from the rest of > the team (and he contributes to the work of the team as well). We believe > (and most organizational effectiveness research supports) that teaming is > an effective approach to getting things done. It isn't about putting > people in silos a
[Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: Asian Foundation for Philanthropy
*fyi *This might be of interest to all the community members including those who live abroad. If you want to respond, you could reply directly to Richard and mark Bhakti on it. Thanks Noopur -- Forwarded message -- From: Richard Symonds Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 6:59 PM Subject: Asian Foundation for Philanthropy To: pr...@wikimedia.in, werespielchequ...@gmail.com Cc: bhakti.deod...@affp.org.uk Hi all, The Asian Foundation for Philanthropy, a small UK charity, are based in the same building as us, in London. They are an organisation who work to promote social change in India and within the Indo-British community. They would like to interview someone from the Wikimedia movement, including Wikimedia UK, but would also like to interview some people from India and UK editors with Indian connections. They're specifically interested in talking about the recent issue of press censorship in India. I'm emailing you (the Wikimedia India Chapter and UK volunteer WereSpielChequers to ask if you might be interested in participating in this? I have copied in Bhakti Deodhar, the Project Manager for the AFfP. All the best, Richard Symonds Office & Development Manager Wikimedia UK -- Noopur Raval Student Arts and Aesthetics Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi Ph: 9650567690 ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikipedia to be free on mobiles in Africa, Middle East (SciDev.net)
Hi Theo, Look, this is a two-way street. Ashwin made rather robust assertions along side his feedback and I think I am entitled to both clarify points and call out assertions that are unfair or unfounded IMO. The fact that I did that, shouldn't be interpreted as disrespect for a senior editor or ignoring the valid feedback in the post. It is quite possible to both respond, call out assertions AND still hear feedback. As I said at the beginning of the post to Ashwin, "Please don't read my responses too personally, as I'm more focused on the themes in your comments that are persistent rather than responding personally." [1] I was seeking to illustrate these themes. In recent months, many a post on this mailing list have had some or all of the following themes (as I read them): a) assert either deep knowledge of the work that the IP team (or other groups) is doing, make demands of the team based on this incomplete knowledge and/or in a tone that asserts that the writer is somehow "an authority" and the team should jump at their command; b) make assumptions about people's motivations on the basis of rumour or pretty limited personal knowledge of that person c) seek to speak for community rather than for themselves when sharing opinions (I believe the norm in our movement is to speak for yourself, unless you are acting as an official spokesperson for a group) d) a general focus on criticism without the "constructive" element of building bridges/relationships as well as contribution to generating solutions and balancing negative feedback with positive My post sought to highlight these issues as all four came through in the post and make a few suggestions on how one might engage more constructively IMO. General thought:I belive it is time that the focus return toward more constructive engagement about the program work and challenges that we face in India and the work that many of us want to accomplish together. This can and should include engagement and feedback on the work that the IP team is doing. In this vain, I've created two new pages on Meta within the India Program area to provide a space for suggestions[2] and for appreciations/feedback[3]. This will hopeful provide a new outlet for sharing of information on a wiki, where the environment is designed for constructing work products rather than the ping-pong style of a mailing list, which IMO encourage personal squabbles that more often end in ill will than in a good exchange of ideas that help people learn and advance our shared agenda. [1] For the record, despite your assertion Theo, I do not doubt Ashwin's sincerity. He asked if I doubted and I confirmed that I did not doubt it. I felt it was useful to say that rather than ignore him and leave it ambiguous. [2] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Program/Suggestions [3] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Programs/Appreciations_and_Feedback Best, Barry On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 3:10 AM, Theo10011 wrote: > Hi Barry > > I have to say I'm a bit surprised reading this mail from you. I really > don't care about what the issue is, and what side you or anyone is, but > this is not the way to address and answer feedback and queries that I've > heard from others a hundred times. This is not the kind of professional > tone I expected from you, some of your inline responses are > uncharacteristic of you. You conflicted yourself questioning Ashwin's > definition of "sincerity", and then ending the email with "I don't doubt > your sincerity..", It seems you do. You question Ashwin's insight and > motivation. I haven't read a single thing in Ashwin's email that I already > didn't hear from others over the years, even before you were hired, on what > the IP should focus on, what should it do, etc.. Those are still common > points, and general feedback. I fail to see what provoked this kind of > response. > > I don't know about Ashwin but I would have expected an apology after that. > I took umbrage with a couple of things you said, and how you said them. My > responses inline are in reaction to yours. > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 11:37 PM, Barry Newstead > wrote: > >> Who really cares, seriously! The purpose of any list is to share >> information openly and encourage community members to participate. It is >> not a credit taking exercise. >> > > Err...You should? Someone from IP attended Wikimania and the chapters > meeting last year, why not add those to the list, or the ones from 2004. > Global south has been the rallying cry for WMF fundraising for a few years, > is this how that focus is going to get translated into? by blurring the > lines between where the money is actually going. I'm not sure about your > community organizing experience, but these events take a bit of effort to > organize and put on, to just have them claimed by someone else, is not in > the good spirit of things either. > > >> >> If you look more deeply, you'll see the IP team is doing work that helps >> move us forward. They are
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikipedia to be free on mobiles in Africa, Middle East (SciDev.net)
Hi Barry Thanks for the response. A couple of things, while I do agree on some of your observations about the trends on this list, I would like to point out I have rarely seen Ashwin partake in those discussions, either on the list or on IRC. To highlight general trends on a list, and use him to point out the said trends as if he is responsible for propagating them, felt a bit unfair. Merely prefacing the critique with, "don't take it personally" didn't resonate the real intention you might have had. You can have another look at this thread in a week, and tell me if I am wrong or being too sensitive here. I haven't been following the lists closely for the past couple of weeks, or what is going on, so I might be a bit out of touch on what happened recently. My earlier point was his feedback and assertions weren't that out-of-line or uncommon, to be only evident of his own view. I am not sure they all originated from him, or from the perspective he had formed over the last year. Either way, he is still entitled to voice them, and not be considered representative of any large trends. You are of course, more than free to call them out, and correct them, but the way it was handled seemed a bit out-of-character. Anyway, this is the kind of reasoned response I would have expected earlier. Not the one, that had "Who really cares, seriously!..." and "you might reflect on use of terms like "sincerity"" and "I would prefer that you speak for yourself rather than invoking "most concerned editors". Let's not pretend that we have any special authority to speak for the community." - As I said they seemed uncharacteristic of what I've come to expect from you. I was surprised to read those comments originating from you, they reminded me of someone else, on another list a couple of months ago. ;) Regards Theo On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 11:59 PM, Barry Newstead wrote: > Hi Theo, > > Look, this is a two-way street. Ashwin made rather robust assertions along > side his feedback and I think I am entitled to both clarify points and call > out assertions that are unfair or unfounded IMO. The fact that I did that, > shouldn't be interpreted as disrespect for a senior editor or ignoring the > valid feedback in the post. It is quite possible to both respond, call out > assertions AND still hear feedback. > > As I said at the beginning of the post to Ashwin, "Please don't read my > responses too personally, as I'm more focused on the themes in your > comments that are persistent rather than responding personally." [1] I was > seeking to illustrate these themes. > > In recent months, many a post on this mailing list have had some or all of > the following themes (as I read them): > a) assert either deep knowledge of the work that the IP team (or other > groups) is doing, make demands of the team based on this incomplete > knowledge and/or in a tone that asserts that the writer is somehow "an > authority" and the team should jump at their command; > b) make assumptions about people's motivations on the basis of rumour or > pretty limited personal knowledge of that person > c) seek to speak for community rather than for themselves when sharing > opinions (I believe the norm in our movement is to speak for yourself, > unless you are acting as an official spokesperson for a group) > d) a general focus on criticism without the "constructive" element of > building bridges/relationships as well as contribution to generating > solutions and balancing negative feedback with positive > > My post sought to highlight these issues as all four came through in the > post and make a few suggestions on how one might engage more constructively > IMO. > > General thought:I belive it is time that the focus return toward more > constructive engagement about the program work and challenges that we face > in India and the work that many of us want to accomplish together. This > can and should include engagement and feedback on the work that the IP team > is doing. In this vain, I've created two new pages on Meta within the India > Program area to provide a space for suggestions[2] and for > appreciations/feedback[3]. This will hopeful provide a new outlet for > sharing of information on a wiki, where the environment is designed for > constructing work products rather than the ping-pong style of a mailing > list, which IMO encourage personal squabbles that more often end in ill > will than in a good exchange of ideas that help people learn and advance > our shared agenda. > > [1] For the record, despite your assertion Theo, I do not doubt Ashwin's > sincerity. He asked if I doubted and I confirmed that I did not doubt it. I > felt it was useful to say that rather than ignore him and leave it > ambiguous. > [2] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Program/Suggestions > [3] > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Programs/Appreciations_and_Feedback > > Best, > Barry > > > > On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 3:10 AM, Theo10011 wrote: > >> Hi Barry >> >> I have
