Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Hisham Mundol]

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Ashwin Baindur wrote:

> It needs to be tackled by teaching the skills of citation, paraphrasing and
> the many acceptable and unacceptable ways to reflect copied text and ideas
> in Wikipedia articles.
>
> Agreed fully.
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Hisham Mundol]

On Sep 12, 2011, at 5:01 PM, Naveen Francis wrote:

> Hi Hisham,
> 
> Can you please inform the people who are regularly editing Indian Articles 
> about the Online Ambassador program before closing the dates for the same ?

Sure, Navin.  The application form is at
https://docs.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dEdtdG5ObU9mMm5oZno3MExDc3lEZHc6MA

For context on this, pls see 
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-September/004299.html

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Hisham Mundol]

On Sep 12, 2011, at 3:33 PM, Theo10011 wrote:

> I beg to differ Gautum. Since, it was made part of the curriculum this almost 
> constitutes as cheating. I am not sure about lofty first world standards but
> I would be failed for cheating just about anywhere in the world.

It's taking a while for some newbie student editors to figure out how to edit 
Wikipedia - and aspects like citation and paraphrasing.  They're working at - 
and I have personally met a bunch of them who're working really hard at it.  
Some are struggling with English.  Some are struggling with getting computer / 
Internet access.  Some are struggling with markups.  …but they're working at 
it! 

> 
> Second, if we don't uphold the "WMF policies" (they are actually project 
> policies, not the foundation's) in an officially sanctioned and financed 
> program, then who will?
> 
> If we were to take this idea further, why respect any local copyright at all? 
> or at least the one in Global South. We can just add copyrighted images and 
> books right off from anywhere, forget about CC or any attempt at working on 
> Open-source licenses. 
> 
> As always, I agree with Beria. If those student were to be graded for this 
> project, they should be failed.

This aspect is solely at the discretion of the faculty - as it should be.  I do 
know that faculty members are taking it seriously.



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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Hisham Mundol]

On Sep 12, 2011, at 4:47 PM, Theo10011 wrote:

>  I am not sure if "Intellectual honesty" means ethics in this context but I 
> would disagree if that is what WMF and other Wikipedians would be concerned 
> about, it's really the legal liability that they expose WMF and projects to. 
> Maybe Hisham can clarify.

To be fair, the actions taken were in in the context that this is an education 
program - and it's important that the benefits that students can accrue - of 
stronger research, better writing and improved critical thinking skills - are 
actually realized by students.  This is what we are trying to encourage.  
Copy-pasting will not add any value to students.
> 
> 
> I am well aware of your position as a open-source book publisher and a 
> Creative commons hero along with someone I respect, that was why I found your 
> position very surprising on this issue.
> 
> Also, Hi Hisham, Nice to see you avoided replying to my comment alone. ;)

Hello Theo!  I shall shortly make amends for this remiss...

> 
> Theo
> 
> [1]http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Category:DMCA 
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Ashwin Baindur]

I agree with Gautam in that just "copyvio" is not the issue. It is the issue
of "copyright violation, plagiarism and intellectual dishonesty". It needs
to be tackled by teaching the skills of citation, paraphrasing and the many
acceptable and unacceptable ways to reflect copied text and ideas in
Wikipedia articles.

Warm regards,

Ashwin Baindur
--


On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Gautam John wrote:

> On 12 September 2011 16:47, Theo10011  wrote:
>
> > Copyright violations aren't only important from an
> academic plagiarism point
> > of view but also legal and ethical, you seem to be only focusing on text
> > based violation in Academia maybe. Commons users and admins spend the
> better
> > part of their time educating themselves and dealing with these violations
> > from different countries not because of some honesty issues
> but real legal
> > ones.Violations more often than not, can lead to court cases, damages and
> > expose the project to liability.
>
> No doubt but the Commons/Source model is broken for cases like India
> where documents are in the public domain here but not in the USA. That
> said, I digress. I agree with you on the legal issues around copyvio
> and it is important from the WMF's point of view since they carry the
> can on this. What I was uncomfortable with was what I saw as perhaps
> an over-reaction to the issue. Sure, "rather safe than sorry" is a
> possible answer but it's not one I favour because we tend to err too
> much on the side of caution.
>
> > already complied with located here[1]. For images, I can attest to
> spending
> > several hundred hours talking on IRC and looking for copyright terms of
> > different countries to comply with.
>
> No doubt, Theo and it's very important work too.
>
> > seriously. I am not sure if "Intellectual honesty" means ethics in this
> > context but I would disagree if that is what WMF and other Wikipedians
> would
> > be concerned about, it's really the legal liability that they expose WMF
> and
> > projects to. Maybe Hisham can clarify.
>
> Here's is what I was highlighting - yes, the issue of copyvio is
> important but given that this was in the context of an educational
> program, the larger issue ought to have been in the context of
> education - plagiarism and intellectual honesty and then about
> copyvio. If you're going to talk about copyvio as the most important
> element within an education program, it has a bearing on issues
> outside of just the Wikimedia movement and is a much larger
> discussion.
>
> >> > Second, if we don't uphold the "WMF policies" (they are actually
> project
> >> > policies, not the foundation's) in an officially sanctioned and
> financed
> >> > program, then who will?
>
> Again - I'm not saying they don't matter. I'm saying the priorities
> are not in order.
>
> > As I saw it, you stated that copyright violations are no big deal,
> > especially in India and the more important thing is being honest
> > (Intellectually) when someone plagiarizes or something to that effect.
>
> I think I have explained myself, above. Copyvio is important but in
> the current context, there are other elements that should have first
> been considered.
>
> > I am well aware of your position as a open-source book publisher and a
> > Creative commons hero along with someone I respect, that was why I found
> > your position very surprising on this issue.
>
> Appreciate your kind words, Theo.
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Naveen Francis]

Hi Hisham,

Can you please inform the people who are regularly editing Indian Articles
about the Online Ambassador program before closing the dates for the same ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_India/New_articles (only
new article alert system I know)


Thanks,
Naveen Francis

On 12 September 2011 16:52, Bala Jeyaraman  wrote:

> Hisham
>
> Thank you for taking this seriously and for the prompt action . This had
> the potential to become a serious PR disaster for India in general and
> thankfully the actions taken seem to have stemmed the copyvio issues for
> now.
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Theo10011  wrote:
>
>> Hi Gautum
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Gautam John wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Theo:
>>>
>>> > I beg to differ Gautum. Since, it was made part of the curriculum this
>>> > almost constitutes as cheating. I am not sure about lofty first world
>>> > standards but
>>>
>>> You seem to have missed this:
>>>
>>> "Yes, it is important to explain why copyvivos are important (and from
>>> an academic, plagiarism point of view too) but the bigger issue if
>>> intellectual honesty."
>>>
>>
>> Copyright violations aren't only important from an
>> academic plagiarism point of view but also legal and ethical, you seem to be
>> only focusing on text based violation in Academia maybe. Commons users and
>> admins spend the better part of their time educating themselves and dealing
>> with these violations from different countries not because of some honesty
>> issues but real legal ones.Violations more often than not, can lead to court
>> cases, damages and expose the project to liability.
>> I never really distinguished what Media I was referring to in regards of
>> Copyright violation, in case of Video and Music, you might want to read
>> different variation of DMCA, along with the take-down notices that WMF has
>> already complied with located here[1]. For images, I can attest to spending
>> several hundred hours talking on IRC and looking for copyright terms of
>> different countries to comply with. It is something people I know take very
>> seriously. I am not sure if "Intellectual honesty" means ethics in this
>> context but I would disagree if that is what WMF and other Wikipedians would
>> be concerned about, it's really the legal liability that they expose WMF and
>> projects to. Maybe Hisham can clarify.
>>
>>
>>> > Second, if we don't uphold the "WMF policies" (they are actually
>>> project
>>> > policies, not the foundation's) in an officially sanctioned and
>>> financed
>>> > program, then who will?
>>>
>>> Again, you are raising a straw-man here. I did not say do not respect
>>> copyrights. I said that the current actions were overblown. We might
>>> disagree on this but I do carry an activists perspective here and
>>> respect your position and what the WMF has to do to limit liability
>>> too.
>>>
>>
>> As I saw it, you stated that copyright violations are no big deal,
>> especially in India and the more important thing is being honest
>> (Intellectually) when someone plagiarizes or something to that effect.
>> Correct me if I based my assumptions wrong or if this straw-man is alive.
>>
>> If you read my comment again, I never allege that you said not to respect
>> copyrights. I was referring to your perception of this issue being overblown
>> and not as important. I also did say, these issues are more important when
>> it is the WMF at the helm conducting these programs.
>>
>> I am well aware of your position as a open-source book publisher and a
>> Creative commons hero along with someone I respect, that was why I found
>> your position very surprising on this issue.
>>
>> Also, Hi Hisham, Nice to see you avoided replying to my comment alone. ;)
>>
>> Theo
>>
>> [1]http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Category:DMCA
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>>
>>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Gautam John]

On 12 September 2011 16:47, Theo10011  wrote:

> Copyright violations aren't only important from an academic plagiarism point
> of view but also legal and ethical, you seem to be only focusing on text
> based violation in Academia maybe. Commons users and admins spend the better
> part of their time educating themselves and dealing with these violations
> from different countries not because of some honesty issues but real legal
> ones.Violations more often than not, can lead to court cases, damages and
> expose the project to liability.

No doubt but the Commons/Source model is broken for cases like India
where documents are in the public domain here but not in the USA. That
said, I digress. I agree with you on the legal issues around copyvio
and it is important from the WMF's point of view since they carry the
can on this. What I was uncomfortable with was what I saw as perhaps
an over-reaction to the issue. Sure, "rather safe than sorry" is a
possible answer but it's not one I favour because we tend to err too
much on the side of caution.

> already complied with located here[1]. For images, I can attest to spending
> several hundred hours talking on IRC and looking for copyright terms of
> different countries to comply with.

No doubt, Theo and it's very important work too.

> seriously. I am not sure if "Intellectual honesty" means ethics in this
> context but I would disagree if that is what WMF and other Wikipedians would
> be concerned about, it's really the legal liability that they expose WMF and
> projects to. Maybe Hisham can clarify.

Here's is what I was highlighting - yes, the issue of copyvio is
important but given that this was in the context of an educational
program, the larger issue ought to have been in the context of
education - plagiarism and intellectual honesty and then about
copyvio. If you're going to talk about copyvio as the most important
element within an education program, it has a bearing on issues
outside of just the Wikimedia movement and is a much larger
discussion.

>> > Second, if we don't uphold the "WMF policies" (they are actually project
>> > policies, not the foundation's) in an officially sanctioned and financed
>> > program, then who will?

Again - I'm not saying they don't matter. I'm saying the priorities
are not in order.

> As I saw it, you stated that copyright violations are no big deal,
> especially in India and the more important thing is being honest
> (Intellectually) when someone plagiarizes or something to that effect.

I think I have explained myself, above. Copyvio is important but in
the current context, there are other elements that should have first
been considered.

> I am well aware of your position as a open-source book publisher and a
> Creative commons hero along with someone I respect, that was why I found
> your position very surprising on this issue.

Appreciate your kind words, Theo.

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Bala Jeyaraman]

Hisham

Thank you for taking this seriously and for the prompt action . This had the
potential to become a serious PR disaster for India in general and
thankfully the actions taken seem to have stemmed the copyvio issues for
now.


On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Theo10011  wrote:

> Hi Gautum
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Gautam John wrote:
>
>> Hi Theo:
>>
>> > I beg to differ Gautum. Since, it was made part of the curriculum this
>> > almost constitutes as cheating. I am not sure about lofty first world
>> > standards but
>>
>> You seem to have missed this:
>>
>> "Yes, it is important to explain why copyvivos are important (and from
>> an academic, plagiarism point of view too) but the bigger issue if
>> intellectual honesty."
>>
>
> Copyright violations aren't only important from an
> academic plagiarism point of view but also legal and ethical, you seem to be
> only focusing on text based violation in Academia maybe. Commons users and
> admins spend the better part of their time educating themselves and dealing
> with these violations from different countries not because of some honesty
> issues but real legal ones.Violations more often than not, can lead to court
> cases, damages and expose the project to liability.
> I never really distinguished what Media I was referring to in regards of
> Copyright violation, in case of Video and Music, you might want to read
> different variation of DMCA, along with the take-down notices that WMF has
> already complied with located here[1]. For images, I can attest to spending
> several hundred hours talking on IRC and looking for copyright terms of
> different countries to comply with. It is something people I know take very
> seriously. I am not sure if "Intellectual honesty" means ethics in this
> context but I would disagree if that is what WMF and other Wikipedians would
> be concerned about, it's really the legal liability that they expose WMF and
> projects to. Maybe Hisham can clarify.
>
>
>> > Second, if we don't uphold the "WMF policies" (they are actually project
>> > policies, not the foundation's) in an officially sanctioned and financed
>> > program, then who will?
>>
>> Again, you are raising a straw-man here. I did not say do not respect
>> copyrights. I said that the current actions were overblown. We might
>> disagree on this but I do carry an activists perspective here and
>> respect your position and what the WMF has to do to limit liability
>> too.
>>
>
> As I saw it, you stated that copyright violations are no big deal,
> especially in India and the more important thing is being honest
> (Intellectually) when someone plagiarizes or something to that effect.
> Correct me if I based my assumptions wrong or if this straw-man is alive.
>
> If you read my comment again, I never allege that you said not to respect
> copyrights. I was referring to your perception of this issue being overblown
> and not as important. I also did say, these issues are more important when
> it is the WMF at the helm conducting these programs.
>
> I am well aware of your position as a open-source book publisher and a
> Creative commons hero along with someone I respect, that was why I found
> your position very surprising on this issue.
>
> Also, Hi Hisham, Nice to see you avoided replying to my comment alone. ;)
>
> Theo
>
> [1]http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Category:DMCA
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Theo10011]

Hi Gautum

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Gautam John wrote:

> Hi Theo:
>
> > I beg to differ Gautum. Since, it was made part of the curriculum this
> > almost constitutes as cheating. I am not sure about lofty first world
> > standards but
>
> You seem to have missed this:
>
> "Yes, it is important to explain why copyvivos are important (and from
> an academic, plagiarism point of view too) but the bigger issue if
> intellectual honesty."
>

Copyright violations aren't only important from an academic plagiarism point
of view but also legal and ethical, you seem to be only focusing on text
based violation in Academia maybe. Commons users and admins spend the better
part of their time educating themselves and dealing with these violations
from different countries not because of some honesty issues but real legal
ones.Violations more often than not, can lead to court cases, damages and
expose the project to liability.
I never really distinguished what Media I was referring to in regards of
Copyright violation, in case of Video and Music, you might want to read
different variation of DMCA, along with the take-down notices that WMF has
already complied with located here[1]. For images, I can attest to spending
several hundred hours talking on IRC and looking for copyright terms of
different countries to comply with. It is something people I know take very
seriously. I am not sure if "Intellectual honesty" means ethics in this
context but I would disagree if that is what WMF and other Wikipedians would
be concerned about, it's really the legal liability that they expose WMF and
projects to. Maybe Hisham can clarify.


> > Second, if we don't uphold the "WMF policies" (they are actually project
> > policies, not the foundation's) in an officially sanctioned and financed
> > program, then who will?
>
> Again, you are raising a straw-man here. I did not say do not respect
> copyrights. I said that the current actions were overblown. We might
> disagree on this but I do carry an activists perspective here and
> respect your position and what the WMF has to do to limit liability
> too.
>

As I saw it, you stated that copyright violations are no big deal,
especially in India and the more important thing is being honest
(Intellectually) when someone plagiarizes or something to that effect.
Correct me if I based my assumptions wrong or if this straw-man is alive.

If you read my comment again, I never allege that you said not to respect
copyrights. I was referring to your perception of this issue being overblown
and not as important. I also did say, these issues are more important when
it is the WMF at the helm conducting these programs.

I am well aware of your position as a open-source book publisher and a
Creative commons hero along with someone I respect, that was why I found
your position very surprising on this issue.

Also, Hi Hisham, Nice to see you avoided replying to my comment alone. ;)

Theo

[1]http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Category:DMCA
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Hisham Mundol]

hisham

On Sep 12, 2011, at 3:59 PM, Srikanth Lakshmanan wrote:

> 
> 
> Apart from copyvios which can be detected since they are from online sources, 
> quite a few students write bookishly (which makes me wonder if they are 
> copying from local texts). I kind of feel(personal opinion) that *deadlines* 
> , *marks* are making quite a few of them to treat this as yet another 
> homework and in turn have the "done and dusted" attitude. Of course there 
> have been some good contributions, but it has been rare for the population.

A huge amount of the work that Campus Ambassadors are doing is to convey that 
this is so much more than just another homework.  At every stage, the tone of 
all messaging is positive and uplifting and optimistic and fun.   We're 
celebrating success and showcasing new editor talent in every class. 

I am sure we will get many many many more good contributions. 

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Gautam John]

On 12 September 2011 16:00, Hisham Mundol  wrote:

> and how to write good quality articles  - all in the context and spirit of
> better learning, more fun, intellectual honesty and the need to avoid
> academic plagiarism - so I'm with you on that.

You know, at the session we had on Copyrights in Bangalore, we had an
excellent talk on the distinction between Copyright Violation and
Plagiarism. I have video but sadly too big to fit on commons. Will try
Youtube.

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam

http://blog.prathambooks.org/p/social-media.html

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Hisham Mundol]

hisham

On Sep 12, 2011, at 2:48 PM, Ashwin Baindur wrote:

> Hisham,
> 
> Nice to hear the comprehensive way in which the copy violation issue is being 
> addressed. Its better to nip this in the bud otherwise it could grow beyond 
> control and also sully the good work being done by hundreds of students.
> 
:-)

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Hisham Mundol]

hisham

On Sep 12, 2011, at 3:11 PM, Gautam John wrote:

> On 12 September 2011 13:16, Hisham Mundol  wrote:
> 
>> (Some) students in the Pune pilot have copy-pasted copyright material onto
>> their articles.  We are taking these copyvios extremely seriously and here's
>> a summary of the action that we have taken.
> 
> You know, Hisham, it's nice that the WMF takes this seriously but we
> might be over blowing it a tad too far. The WMFs policies work really
> well in a 1st world environment where there is great sensitivity to
> copyright and violations. In India, it's a different kettle of fish
> and we need to treat it as such.
> 
> Yes, it is important to explain why copyvivos are important (and from
> an academic, plagiarism point of view too) but the bigger issue if
> intellectual honesty.
> 
> I think they'll do just fine!
> 

I'm sure they'll do fine!  I continue to remain optimistic and refuse to get 
cynical about it.  …and I'll continue to celebrate some awesome awesome work.  

Maybe the tone of my message conveyed the wrong impression.  The primary goal 
is to explain what a copyvio is, convey why copyvios are not to be done and how 
to write good quality articles  - all in the context and spirit of better 
learning, more fun, intellectual honesty and the need to avoid academic 
plagiarism - so I'm with you on that.  

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Srikanth Lakshmanan]

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 15:48, Gautam John  wrote:

>
> I said that the current actions were overblown.


No second thoughts on the issue and actions being taken. But I guess Gautam
has a point here. This set of copyvios were detected very early(majorly ~50
students' edits were monitored and reported), others are not yet on editing
mode still. 50 / 1000 is not some, but I would say few. But its key we take
this seriously before it explodes to a scale we cant handle since Indian
editors / newbies are already infamous for copyvios and we dont want to add
more such folks.

Apart from copyvios which can be detected since they are from online
sources, quite a few students write bookishly (which makes me wonder if they
are copying from local texts). I kind of feel(personal opinion) that
*deadlines* , *marks* are making quite a few of them to treat this as yet
another homework and in turn have the "done and dusted" attitude. Of course
there have been some good contributions, but it has been rare for the
population.

-- 
Regards
Srikanth.L
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Hisham Mundol]

hisham

On Sep 12, 2011, at 3:38 PM, Anivar Aravind wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 3:11 PM, Gautam John  wrote:
>> On 12 September 2011 13:16, Hisham Mundol  wrote:
>> 
>>> (Some) students in the Pune pilot have copy-pasted copyright material onto
>>> their articles.  We are taking these copyvios extremely seriously and here's
>>> a summary of the action that we have taken.
>> 
>> You know, Hisham, it's nice that the WMF takes this seriously but we
>> might be over blowing it a tad too far. The WMFs policies work really
>> well in a 1st world environment where there is great sensitivity to
>> copyright and violations. In India, it's a different kettle of fish
>> and we need to treat it as such.
> 
> feeling Same. Treat it like usual copyright violations happening in
> wikipedia, and take precautionary steps. Disabling Leaderboad etc
> seems to be little overstretched act. I wonder, how we missed
> addressing Copyvios at all in the programme plan?
> 

The actions we have taken are part of a set of precautionary steps - and also 
include a host of additional support for students.  One the question of the 
leaderboard, it's only fair that honest, hard-working students get the 
recognition they deserve.  

We have addressed copyvios repeatedly with students - but, what can i say, 
sometimes kids will be kids…  We are now reiterating the message through 
multiple channels.  It's opportune because a lot of students are now starting 
to edit and they need reminders.  The context is there are 1000 students and 
the overwhelming majority are new to Wikipedia.  This presents a problem of 
scale for us and a challenge of familiarity for them. 


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Hisham Mundol]

hisham

On Sep 12, 2011, at 3:07 PM, Béria Lima wrote:

> There are another way (who works fine in Brazilian program): Treat then as 
> adults they are and the articles as projects. If I cheat in a project in any 
> college in Brazil my professor would give me a zero. In some brazilians 
> college I may be expelled for do that (without count the fact that is also a 
> crime in Brazil). We (and they) need to realize how serious copyright 
> violations are.
> 
> But to make sure,  i'm not saying you people to threat your students, but to 
> make them realize how serious that is.  


Hi Beria

Agree with you - and my intention and actions are precisely to do what you 
said: to convey to students that this is a serious matter and they need to 
treat it with the seriousness that it deserves.  (In terms of the specific 
academic approaches to be taken, that is a call that faculty and directors of 
the colleges will take; not us.)

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Gautam John]

Hi Theo:

> I beg to differ Gautum. Since, it was made part of the curriculum this
> almost constitutes as cheating. I am not sure about lofty first world
> standards but

You seem to have missed this:

"Yes, it is important to explain why copyvivos are important (and from
an academic, plagiarism point of view too) but the bigger issue if
intellectual honesty."

> Second, if we don't uphold the "WMF policies" (they are actually project
> policies, not the foundation's) in an officially sanctioned and financed
> program, then who will?

Again, you are raising a straw-man here. I did not say do not respect
copyrights. I said that the current actions were overblown. We might
disagree on this but I do carry an activists perspective here and
respect your position and what the WMF has to do to limit liability
too.

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam

http://blog.prathambooks.org/p/social-media.html

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Anivar Aravind]

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 3:11 PM, Gautam John  wrote:
> On 12 September 2011 13:16, Hisham Mundol  wrote:
>
>> (Some) students in the Pune pilot have copy-pasted copyright material onto
>> their articles.  We are taking these copyvios extremely seriously and here's
>> a summary of the action that we have taken.
>
> You know, Hisham, it's nice that the WMF takes this seriously but we
> might be over blowing it a tad too far. The WMFs policies work really
> well in a 1st world environment where there is great sensitivity to
> copyright and violations. In India, it's a different kettle of fish
> and we need to treat it as such.

feeling Same. Treat it like usual copyright violations happening in
wikipedia, and take precautionary steps. Disabling Leaderboad etc
seems to be little overstretched act. I wonder, how we missed
addressing Copyvios at all in the programme plan?

Anivar

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Ashwin Baindur]

Hisham,

Nice to hear the comprehensive way in which the copy violation issue is
being addressed. Its better to nip this in the bud otherwise it could grow
beyond control and also sully the good work being done by hundreds of
students.

Warm regards,

Ashwin Baindur
--


On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Hisham Mundol wrote:

> Hi Folks
>
> (Some) students in the Pune pilot have copy-pasted copyright material onto
> their articles.  We are taking these copyvios extremely seriously and here's
> a summary of the action that we have taken.
>
> a) Conducted classroom sessions in all 3 colleges where the program is
> running and conveying the importance of not making this mistake - and the
> fact that they will be caught - and that too quickly.  Between Nitika and I,
> we've conducted sessions in at least 10 separate classes last week (along
> with Campus Ambassadors.)
> b) Conducted meetings with the directors and faculty members to convey the
> gravity of the issue and asking them to pass on the message to their
> students in the strongest possible terms.
> c) Almost doubling the number of Campus Ambassadors to provide more
> on-ground support for students.  We will be sending out an update on this
> soon.  The issue of copyvios was taken up specifically during the training
> for these Campus Ambassadors.
> d) Started work on establishing an Online Ambassador program (
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-September/004299.html)
> to provide additional support
> e) Disabled the leaderboard (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:India_Education_Program/Leaderboard) so
> that we make sure that recognition is given only to deserving students.
>
> Controlling the copyvio issue is the single biggest issue for the program
> and we will continue to do everything it takes to minimize it.  Of course,
> some students who will still try and cut corners and the actions listed
> above should hopefully reduce the problem.
>
> Having said all this, we must not cloud the fantastic work of many students
> by the errors committed by (some) newbies who are unfamiliar with Wikipedia.
>  Do continue to support and celebrate the work of the good guys!
>
> Thank you for you continued support on this.
>
> Best
>
> hisham
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Theo10011]

I beg to differ Gautum. Since, it was made part of the curriculum this
almost constitutes as cheating. I am not sure about lofty first world
standards but
I would be failed for cheating just about anywhere in the world.

Second, if we don't uphold the "WMF policies" (they are actually project
policies, not the foundation's) in an officially sanctioned and financed
program, then who will?

If we were to take this idea further, why respect any local copyright at
all? or at least the one in Global South. We can just add copyrighted images
and books right off from anywhere, forget about CC or any attempt at working
on Open-source licenses.

As always, I agree with Beria. If those student were to be graded for this
project, they should be failed.

Theo

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 3:11 PM, Gautam John wrote:

> On 12 September 2011 13:16, Hisham Mundol  wrote:
>
> > (Some) students in the Pune pilot have copy-pasted copyright material
> onto
> > their articles.  We are taking these copyvios extremely seriously and
> here's
> > a summary of the action that we have taken.
>
> You know, Hisham, it's nice that the WMF takes this seriously but we
> might be over blowing it a tad too far. The WMFs policies work really
> well in a 1st world environment where there is great sensitivity to
> copyright and violations. In India, it's a different kettle of fish
> and we need to treat it as such.
>
> Yes, it is important to explain why copyvivos are important (and from
> an academic, plagiarism point of view too) but the bigger issue if
> intellectual honesty.
>
> I think they'll do just fine!
>
> Thank you.
>
> Best,
>
> Gautam
> 
> http://blog.prathambooks.org/p/social-media.html
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Gautam John]

On 12 September 2011 13:16, Hisham Mundol  wrote:

> (Some) students in the Pune pilot have copy-pasted copyright material onto
> their articles.  We are taking these copyvios extremely seriously and here's
> a summary of the action that we have taken.

You know, Hisham, it's nice that the WMF takes this seriously but we
might be over blowing it a tad too far. The WMFs policies work really
well in a 1st world environment where there is great sensitivity to
copyright and violations. In India, it's a different kettle of fish
and we need to treat it as such.

Yes, it is important to explain why copyvivos are important (and from
an academic, plagiarism point of view too) but the bigger issue if
intellectual honesty.

I think they'll do just fine!

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam

http://blog.prathambooks.org/p/social-media.html

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Béria Lima]

There are another way (who works fine in Brazilian program): Treat then as
adults they are and the articles as projects. If I cheat in a project in any
college in Brazil my professor would give me a zero. In some brazilians
college I may be expelled for do that (without count the fact that is also a
crime in Brazil). We (and they) need to realize how serious copyright
violations are.

But to make sure,  i'm not saying you people to threat your students, but to
make them realize how serious that is.
_
*Béria Lima*

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre
acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a
fazer .*


On 12 September 2011 08:46, Hisham Mundol  wrote:

> Hi Folks
>
> (Some) students in the Pune pilot have copy-pasted copyright material onto
> their articles.  We are taking these copyvios extremely seriously and here's
> a summary of the action that we have taken.
>
> a) Conducted classroom sessions in all 3 colleges where the program is
> running and conveying the importance of not making this mistake - and the
> fact that they will be caught - and that too quickly.  Between Nitika and I,
> we've conducted sessions in at least 10 separate classes last week (along
> with Campus Ambassadors.)
> b) Conducted meetings with the directors and faculty members to convey the
> gravity of the issue and asking them to pass on the message to their
> students in the strongest possible terms.
> c) Almost doubling the number of Campus Ambassadors to provide more
> on-ground support for students.  We will be sending out an update on this
> soon.  The issue of copyvios was taken up specifically during the training
> for these Campus Ambassadors.
> d) Started work on establishing an Online Ambassador program (
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-September/004299.html)
> to provide additional support
> e) Disabled the leaderboard (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:India_Education_Program/Leaderboard) so
> that we make sure that recognition is given only to deserving students.
>
> Controlling the copyvio issue is the single biggest issue for the program
> and we will continue to do everything it takes to minimize it.  Of course,
> some students who will still try and cut corners and the actions listed
> above should hopefully reduce the problem.
>
> Having said all this, we must not cloud the fantastic work of many students
> by the errors committed by (some) newbies who are unfamiliar with Wikipedia.
>  Do continue to support and celebrate the work of the good guys!
>
> Thank you for you continued support on this.
>
> Best
>
> hisham
>
>
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>
>
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[Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program

[Hisham Mundol]

Hi Folks

(Some) students in the Pune pilot have copy-pasted copyright material onto 
their articles.  We are taking these copyvios extremely seriously and here's a 
summary of the action that we have taken.

a) Conducted classroom sessions in all 3 colleges where the program is running 
and conveying the importance of not making this mistake - and the fact that 
they will be caught - and that too quickly.  Between Nitika and I, we've 
conducted sessions in at least 10 separate classes last week (along with Campus 
Ambassadors.)
b) Conducted meetings with the directors and faculty members to convey the 
gravity of the issue and asking them to pass on the message to their students 
in the strongest possible terms.
c) Almost doubling the number of Campus Ambassadors to provide more on-ground 
support for students.  We will be sending out an update on this soon.  The 
issue of copyvios was taken up specifically during the training for these 
Campus Ambassadors.
d) Started work on establishing an Online Ambassador program 
(http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-September/004299.html)
 to provide additional support 
e) Disabled the leaderboard 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:India_Education_Program/Leaderboard) so 
that we make sure that recognition is given only to deserving students.

Controlling the copyvio issue is the single biggest issue for the program and 
we will continue to do everything it takes to minimize it.  Of course, some 
students who will still try and cut corners and the actions listed above should 
hopefully reduce the problem.

Having said all this, we must not cloud the fantastic work of many students by 
the errors committed by (some) newbies who are unfamiliar with Wikipedia.  Do 
continue to support and celebrate the work of the good guys!

Thank you for you continued support on this.

Best

hisham

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