Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

[Gautam John]

On 29 April 2014 01:00, Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> 1. Chapters are free to set their own course and come up with their own
> strategy, goals, and annual plans.  They are thus independent.
> 2. Chapters that want to avail themselves of _movement funds_ -- a
> relatively plentiful and relatively accessible source of funding -- do need
> to propose compelling plans with at least a considerable emphasis on the
> goals identified as strategic goals for Wikimedia.

Thank you, Asaf. I now understand how this works. So long as a Chapter
is willing to further the WMF's larger strategic vision, they can get
access to WMF funds - assuming, of course, they have a plan and the
proven capability of delivering that. It's this latter bit that the
WMF/FDC has raised questions about?

Best,

Gautam

http://www.akshara.org.in/

 They are still free to
> pursue specific programs and interests that are a good match for their
> context -- regional, organizational, and motivational (i.e. what their own
> volunteers are most motivated to work on).  The balance between
> definitely-strategic and perhaps-less-strategic-but-making-sense-in-context
> initiatives needs to be a reasonable one, and to be reasonably argued for,
> but it can certainly be done.
>
> 3. In my earlier comments, I was suggesting that WMIN _not_ forego movement
> funding, because, in my opinion, its actual goals and its volunteer base
> _are not_ in fact too divergent from movement goals and WMF's expectations.
> I asserted that the abiding disagreement between WMF and WMIN is much more
> around the _how_ than the _what_, and that that disagreement can be
> surmounted.   (I acknowledge, however, that it has so far seen little
> positive development: despite much investment of time and effort from both
> sides, and multiple channels (including face to face conversations)
> attempted, neither side has accepted the other's expectations so far.)
>
> I remain interested, as mentioned earlier on this thread, to engage with
> WMIN on a more constructive note, on a path toward greater credibility and
> confidence in WMIN from WMF; such a path would need to go through realistic
> growth planning, demonstrable community engagement and support, and some
> sustained record of success.  In a way, the latest round of discussions with
> WMIN has resulted in something along those lines, at least in terms of
> WMIN's current plans and three short-term focuses (I wonder if they were
> shared with this list -- if not, perhaps the EC would consider doing so).  I
> remain frankly skeptical of WMIN's ability to execute those plans in terms
> of volunteer engagement (and even EC/board engagement), but I would be
> _delighted_ to be proven too pessimistic.  I am happy to discuss more
> strategic planning (as distinct from the three short-term focuses) any time,
> if WMIN's current leadership would show interest.
>
> Cheers,
>
>Asaf
>
> --
> Asaf Bartov
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
> sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
> https://donate.wikimedia.org

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

[Dhaval S. Vyas]

Thank you Asaf for correcting my facts.

When I said WMIN was denied funding, It was obvious that I was referring to
the large chunk of budget that was denied and didn't mean that "no funding
was approved". I am glad to see your reply to Gerald's question that I
attempted to answer, which you found objectionable.

And thank you for acknowledging my weakness as volunteer, I do not get paid
to make edits on wiki and to reply to this email threat unlike other direct
or indirect beneficiaries of the WMF money, and hence appreciate your
patience in correcting my facts, which ultimately helps me to gain more
knowledge. Please bear with my second hand information until my time is
paid.

Thanks once again,
Dhaval
On 28 Apr 2014 20:18, "Asaf Bartov"  wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 12:29 AM, Dhaval S. Vyas  wrote:
>
>> Hi Gerard,
>>
>> I know a chapter in Europe, where probably you come from, which doesn't
>> depend on WMF's grant or funds as it has raised a huge amount on its own.
>> That chapter, WMUK, is still considered WMF chapter if I am not mistaking.
>>
> This is incorrect.   The majority of funds raised by WMUK was raised via
> the annual wiki-banner-based fundraiser, and is movement funding, granted
> to WMUK via the FDC process.
>
>> Also, the need for WMIN to raise its own funds has arisen because of
>> WMF's FDC's decision to not fund it and fund another private organisation.
>>
> This is also incorrect.  The FDC _did_ recommend to fund WMIN this year,
> albeit at a much reduced amount[1].  While this is no doubt disappointing
> to WMIN, it is funding nonetheless, and is at a scale similar to the
> funding WMIN had received this past year via the Project and Event Grants
> (PEG) program[2][3].   And the FDC has _not_ funded another organization
> (yet).  It is currently evaluating a proposal by another organization --
> CIS -- but whatever it decides regarding this proposal, it is entirely
> independent of its decisions, present and future, about proposals from WMIN.
>
> Crucially, the funding CIS is applying to receive (and has been receiving
> in the past grant), is _by no means_ at the expense of WMIN, nor vice
> versa.  There is enough money to fund both organizations' work in India, to
> the degree they propose compelling program plans.
>
> This is not a zero-sum game, and money granted to organization A is not at
> the expense of organization B.  While the total "envelope" of funds the FDC
> has to allocate is finite, it has never been the case so far that
> organization A was short-changed despite a compelling plan because money
> has run out due to funding organization B.
>
>> I hope this helps you to understand what's being discussed.
>>
> Actually, these repeated half-truths are no doubt making it more difficult
> for those reading these discussions to understand.  I recognize that you
> are all volunteers and don't have the time (or inclination) to closely
> follow the Annual Plan Grants (FDC) process or to double-check your
> statements about what past practice has been, and I gladly undertake to
> provide accurate information where corrections are needed.  But I would
> encourage you all to either make more of an effort to get your facts right
> in advance of making a statement (rather than relying on second-hand
> accounts), _or_ to favor asking questions to making assertions, to avoid
> misleading responses such as the one above.  (I allege no bad faith here,
> of course!)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Asaf
>
> [1]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/FDC_portal/FDC_recommendations/2013-2014_round1
> [2]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/WM_IN/Program_Grant_Quarter_1_2013
> [3]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/WM_IN/Program_Grant_April_December_2013
>
> --
> Asaf Bartov
> Wikimedia Foundation 
>
> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
> sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
> https://donate.wikimedia.org
>
> ___
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> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

[Vikram Vincent]

Hello Asaf,

On 29 April 2014 01:00, Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> I asserted that the abiding disagreement between WMF and WMIN is much more
> around the _how_ than the _what_, and that that disagreement can be 

Can you please elaborate a bit more on the disagreement of 'how'
Thanks
Vikram

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

[Asaf Bartov]

On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 11:51 PM, Gautam John  wrote:

> In general, are Chapters expected to focus on what the goals of the
> WMF and FDC are? Or are they free to chart their own course about
> things that they believe are important to the geographies they serve?
> And if they don't toe the WMF/FDC policy/strategy line then they don't
> get money? How does this foster any sort of independence?
>

To put it simply:

1. Chapters are free to set their own course and come up with their own
strategy, goals, and annual plans.  They are thus independent.

2. Chapters that want to avail themselves of _movement funds_ -- a
relatively plentiful and relatively accessible source of funding -- do need
to propose compelling plans with at least a considerable emphasis on the
goals identified as strategic goals for Wikimedia.  They are still free to
pursue specific programs and interests that are a good match for their
context -- regional, organizational, and motivational (i.e. what their own
volunteers are most motivated to work on).  The balance between
definitely-strategic and perhaps-less-strategic-but-making-sense-in-context
initiatives needs to be a reasonable one, and to be reasonably argued for,
but it can certainly be done.

3. In my earlier comments, I was suggesting that WMIN _not_ forego movement
funding, because, in my opinion, its actual goals and its volunteer base
_are not_ in fact too divergent from movement goals and WMF's
expectations.  I asserted that the abiding disagreement between WMF and
WMIN is much more around the _how_ than the _what_, and that that
disagreement can be surmounted.   (I acknowledge, however, that it has so
far seen little positive development: despite much investment of time and
effort from both sides, and multiple channels (including face to face
conversations) attempted, neither side has accepted the other's
expectations so far.)

I remain interested, as mentioned earlier on this thread, to engage with
WMIN on a more constructive note, on a path toward greater credibility and
confidence in WMIN from WMF; such a path would need to go through realistic
growth planning, demonstrable community engagement and support, and some
sustained record of success.  In a way, the latest round of discussions
with WMIN has resulted in something along those lines, at least in terms of
WMIN's current plans and three short-term focuses (I wonder if they were
shared with this list -- if not, perhaps the EC would consider doing so).
I remain frankly skeptical of WMIN's ability to execute those plans in
terms of volunteer engagement (and even EC/board engagement), but I would
be _delighted_ to be proven too pessimistic.  I am happy to discuss more
strategic planning (as distinct from the three short-term focuses) any
time, if WMIN's current leadership would show interest.

Cheers,

   Asaf

-- 
Asaf Bartov
Wikimedia Foundation 

Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
https://donate.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

[Asaf Bartov]

On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 12:29 AM, Dhaval S. Vyas  wrote:

> Hi Gerard,
>
> I know a chapter in Europe, where probably you come from, which doesn't
> depend on WMF's grant or funds as it has raised a huge amount on its own.
> That chapter, WMUK, is still considered WMF chapter if I am not mistaking.
>
This is incorrect.   The majority of funds raised by WMUK was raised via
the annual wiki-banner-based fundraiser, and is movement funding, granted
to WMUK via the FDC process.

> Also, the need for WMIN to raise its own funds has arisen because of WMF's
> FDC's decision to not fund it and fund another private organisation.
>
This is also incorrect.  The FDC _did_ recommend to fund WMIN this year,
albeit at a much reduced amount[1].  While this is no doubt disappointing
to WMIN, it is funding nonetheless, and is at a scale similar to the
funding WMIN had received this past year via the Project and Event Grants
(PEG) program[2][3].   And the FDC has _not_ funded another organization
(yet).  It is currently evaluating a proposal by another organization --
CIS -- but whatever it decides regarding this proposal, it is entirely
independent of its decisions, present and future, about proposals from WMIN.

Crucially, the funding CIS is applying to receive (and has been receiving
in the past grant), is _by no means_ at the expense of WMIN, nor vice
versa.  There is enough money to fund both organizations' work in India, to
the degree they propose compelling program plans.

This is not a zero-sum game, and money granted to organization A is not at
the expense of organization B.  While the total "envelope" of funds the FDC
has to allocate is finite, it has never been the case so far that
organization A was short-changed despite a compelling plan because money
has run out due to funding organization B.

> I hope this helps you to understand what's being discussed.
>
Actually, these repeated half-truths are no doubt making it more difficult
for those reading these discussions to understand.  I recognize that you
are all volunteers and don't have the time (or inclination) to closely
follow the Annual Plan Grants (FDC) process or to double-check your
statements about what past practice has been, and I gladly undertake to
provide accurate information where corrections are needed.  But I would
encourage you all to either make more of an effort to get your facts right
in advance of making a statement (rather than relying on second-hand
accounts), _or_ to favor asking questions to making assertions, to avoid
misleading responses such as the one above.  (I allege no bad faith here,
of course!)

Cheers,

Asaf

[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/FDC_portal/FDC_recommendations/2013-2014_round1
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/WM_IN/Program_Grant_Quarter_1_2013
[3]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:PEG/WM_IN/Program_Grant_April_December_2013

-- 
Asaf Bartov
Wikimedia Foundation 

Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
https://donate.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
I am from the Netherlands and, its chapter is very much depended on WMF
money. Fundraising is NOT its strong point.. If you are interested in a
chapter that has its own revenue stream look at Poland.

I do know that the Indian chapter did not receive the funding it looked for
and, personally I dislike the arguments used. However, what I do see is
that there is unnecessary rivalry between CIS and the chapter. Unnecessary
because they do and should aim for the same goal. Given the size of India,
the combined funding is really small and given the size of India there are
many, many more opportunities once everything is said and done. The energy
that goes in fighting CIS is energy wasted. CIS has a limited mandate in
time and when the chapter and CIS find it in themselves to work together it
is more than likely that the CIS projects and funding will find a home
under the India chapter umbrella.

I applaud you for wanting to raise funds that will make up the shortfall
because of the limited WMF funding. The point of those projects is to
achieve its goals. So define the best goals and projects you can. Find the
money and expose the WMF arguments by doing a better job than they do.
Thanks,
 GerardM




On 28 April 2014 09:29, Dhaval S. Vyas  wrote:

> Hi Gerard,
>
> I know a chapter in Europe, where probably you come from, which doesn't
> depend on WMF's grant or funds as it has raised a huge amount on its own.
> That chapter, WMUK, is still considered WMF chapter if I am not mistaking.
>
> Also, the need for WMIN to raise its own funds has arisen because of WMF's
> FDC's decision to not fund it and fund another private organisation.
>
> I hope this helps you to understand what's being discussed.
>
> Regards,
> Dhaval
> On 28 Apr 2014 08:16, "Gerard Meijssen"  wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> Independence is just that. When you can get money when you focus on
>> certain goals, you will when you do. When you want to go a different route,
>> you may but that is your route and funding for it is your responsibility as
>> well.
>>
>> Given what a chapter is, I would expect that it has ample scope to
>> explore its own territory and seek its own priorities. My question is, when
>> a chapter moves outside of what WMF / FDC is funding, to what extend is it
>> still and does it deserve to be the chapter of the WMF?
>> Thanks,
>>   Gerard
>>
>>
>> On 28 April 2014 08:51, Gautam John  wrote:
>>
>>> On 18 April 2014 12:03, Asaf Bartov  wrote:
>>>
>>> > This is in response to WMIN not being granted the full amount it has
>>> > requested via the Annual Plan Grants process[1].  Since funds are
>>> available
>>> > relatively plentifully at the movement level, and since WMF is
>>> strategically
>>> > interested in promoting the mission in India, I would argue a better
>>> (and
>>> > easier!) solution would be to address the likely sources of
>>> misalignment
>>> > between WMIN's expectations and thinking and those of WMF and the
>>> FDC[2].
>>>
>>> In general, are Chapters expected to focus on what the goals of the
>>> WMF and FDC are? Or are they free to chart their own course about
>>> things that they believe are important to the geographies they serve?
>>> And if they don't toe the WMF/FDC policy/strategy line then they don't
>>> get money? How does this foster any sort of independence?
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

[Dhaval S. Vyas]

Hi Gerard,

I know a chapter in Europe, where probably you come from, which doesn't
depend on WMF's grant or funds as it has raised a huge amount on its own.
That chapter, WMUK, is still considered WMF chapter if I am not mistaking.

Also, the need for WMIN to raise its own funds has arisen because of WMF's
FDC's decision to not fund it and fund another private organisation.

I hope this helps you to understand what's being discussed.

Regards,
Dhaval
On 28 Apr 2014 08:16, "Gerard Meijssen"  wrote:

> Hoi,
> Independence is just that. When you can get money when you focus on
> certain goals, you will when you do. When you want to go a different route,
> you may but that is your route and funding for it is your responsibility as
> well.
>
> Given what a chapter is, I would expect that it has ample scope to explore
> its own territory and seek its own priorities. My question is, when a
> chapter moves outside of what WMF / FDC is funding, to what extend is it
> still and does it deserve to be the chapter of the WMF?
> Thanks,
>   Gerard
>
>
> On 28 April 2014 08:51, Gautam John  wrote:
>
>> On 18 April 2014 12:03, Asaf Bartov  wrote:
>>
>> > This is in response to WMIN not being granted the full amount it has
>> > requested via the Annual Plan Grants process[1].  Since funds are
>> available
>> > relatively plentifully at the movement level, and since WMF is
>> strategically
>> > interested in promoting the mission in India, I would argue a better
>> (and
>> > easier!) solution would be to address the likely sources of misalignment
>> > between WMIN's expectations and thinking and those of WMF and the
>> FDC[2].
>>
>> In general, are Chapters expected to focus on what the goals of the
>> WMF and FDC are? Or are they free to chart their own course about
>> things that they believe are important to the geographies they serve?
>> And if they don't toe the WMF/FDC policy/strategy line then they don't
>> get money? How does this foster any sort of independence?
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
>
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

[Gautam John]

On 28 April 2014 12:45, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:

> Independence is just that. When you can get money when you focus on certain
> goals, you will when you do. When you want to go a different route, you may
> but that is your route and funding for it is your responsibility as well.

That's fair enough, Gerard. It was this "One point I'd beg to differ
on, though, right from the start, is your suggestion that WMIN focus
on raising funds independently:" that I was referring to.

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam

http://www.akshara.org.in/

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Independence is just that. When you can get money when you focus on certain
goals, you will when you do. When you want to go a different route, you may
but that is your route and funding for it is your responsibility as well.

Given what a chapter is, I would expect that it has ample scope to explore
its own territory and seek its own priorities. My question is, when a
chapter moves outside of what WMF / FDC is funding, to what extend is it
still and does it deserve to be the chapter of the WMF?
Thanks,
  Gerard


On 28 April 2014 08:51, Gautam John  wrote:

> On 18 April 2014 12:03, Asaf Bartov  wrote:
>
> > This is in response to WMIN not being granted the full amount it has
> > requested via the Annual Plan Grants process[1].  Since funds are
> available
> > relatively plentifully at the movement level, and since WMF is
> strategically
> > interested in promoting the mission in India, I would argue a better (and
> > easier!) solution would be to address the likely sources of misalignment
> > between WMIN's expectations and thinking and those of WMF and the FDC[2].
>
> In general, are Chapters expected to focus on what the goals of the
> WMF and FDC are? Or are they free to chart their own course about
> things that they believe are important to the geographies they serve?
> And if they don't toe the WMF/FDC policy/strategy line then they don't
> get money? How does this foster any sort of independence?
>
> ___
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

[Gautam John]

On 18 April 2014 12:03, Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> This is in response to WMIN not being granted the full amount it has
> requested via the Annual Plan Grants process[1].  Since funds are available
> relatively plentifully at the movement level, and since WMF is strategically
> interested in promoting the mission in India, I would argue a better (and
> easier!) solution would be to address the likely sources of misalignment
> between WMIN's expectations and thinking and those of WMF and the FDC[2].

In general, are Chapters expected to focus on what the goals of the
WMF and FDC are? Or are they free to chart their own course about
things that they believe are important to the geographies they serve?
And if they don't toe the WMF/FDC policy/strategy line then they don't
get money? How does this foster any sort of independence?

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter

[Asaf Bartov]

Thanks for this constructive invitation.  I look forward to this
conversation, and I commit to contribute to it, as invited, from my
perspective, once some community members have offered opinions.

One point I'd beg to differ on, though, right from the start, is your
suggestion that WMIN focus on raising funds independently:

This is in response to WMIN not being granted the full amount it has
requested via the Annual Plan Grants process[1].  Since funds are available
relatively plentifully at the movement level, and since WMF is
strategically interested in promoting the mission in India, I would argue a
better (and easier!) solution would be to address the likely sources of
misalignment between WMIN's expectations and thinking and those of WMF and
the FDC[2].

A conversation such as the one you began now is certainly a step in the
right direction, and I am optimistic that with open dialogue we can achieve
alignment on questions like:
* current strengths/resources and weaknesses/gaps
* strategy and plans
* WMIN's place in the context of other Wikimedia work in India
* the role of staff and the terms under which funding for staff would be a
good investment

These topics have been discussed before, of course, but the fact is
alignment was never reached.  To achieve it, we'd need to have open
conversations (most such conversations had so far have _not_ been open), to
put aside bruised egos and strong feelings (justified or unjustified) about
past decisions, and to focus with some discipline on the above questions
(and others).  I look forward to such engagement.

Again, I say all this in the context of the question of funding.  If such
alignment is achieved, WMIN would find it remarkably easy to get funding
for its needs, including staff, and would not need to develop the
capabilities and to put in the effort required to raise the funds locally,
from sources other than the on-wiki fundraiser.  I would _like_ to see
fundraiser funds get used to fund WMIN.

This question is perhaps not the best _first_ question for this
conversation; it would probably be better to begin with some
vision-sharing, some imagining of where we want to get to.  But since you
mentioned it as an obvious direction WMIN would need to develop in, I
thought I should point out it's not at all obvious, from our perspective.

Thanks again for engaging in good faith.

   Asaf

[1] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG
[2] I do not speak for the Funds Dissemination Committee and was not part
of the deliberations or decision on this, though I did deliver a compliance
report about past grants as one of the inputs for the committee's
deliberations.


On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 8:05 PM, Pradeep Mohandas wrote:

> The on-going conversation at the Grants application page of CIS-A2K has
> also seen some comments made about the Wikimedia India Chapter. You can
> read the conversation on-wiki -
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Q3c
> .
>
> I would encourage the community members who have thus far engaged CIS-A2K
> with criticism to also take the time and effort to do the same with the
> Wikimedia India Chapter. As Asaf points out in the above conversation, the
> Chapter is a community created resource and I think it is upto the
> community to decide on the effectiveness of the work done by this
> organisation. Without community involvement, no matter how passionate the
> WMIN EC or a few members inside the Chapter are, it will not make any
> impact.
>
> I see no communication from the WMIN EC on their own grant application and
> their status thereafter. I do believe they were wronged in not getting the
> funds they requested for. However, I think it would be mature to move on
> and also to use the interim period to build resources that seek to make
> WMIN's funding sources independent of WMF and to expand membership.
>
> If the WMIN EC would thus like to engage the community, I would suggest
> that they open a conversation on wiki (preferably, Meta) in what they seek
> from community members and to try and understand what community members
> expect from the Chapter. Revitalising the Wikimedia India chapter is in the
> long term interest of the movement in India. Keeping the Chapter
> accountable is the community's responsibility. However, it is for each
> community member and not a few to make this decision. Help has been offered
> to the Chapter from WMF, CIS-A2K and I am sure from the community as well.
> I would love to see the chapter revitalised and a pragmatic programme
> evolved around the same.
>
> Pradeep Mohandas
> How Pradeep uses email? - http://goo.gl/6v1I9
>
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>


-- 
Asaf Bartov
Wikimedia Fou