Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi,

I failed to understand how splitting Wikisource projects in different
languages had been a mistake and how that affected communities badly.

As part of Bengali Wikisource community, I can only say, we are doing well
and we don't want to return back to old multilingual Wikisource.

Regards,
Bodhisattwa
On 28 Nov 2015 16:10, "billinghurst"  wrote:

> I see an argument unsupported by evidence, and without evidence it
> approaches baseless and without value.
>
> Please go and write an essay about the matter at
> https://wikisource.org/ referencing the original argument for the
> split, and how the reintroduction of a single site would be of value,
> and how it might be done. In fact how it will be better than now.
> Otherwise all I see is a doom and gloom worry-wort.
>
> Regards, Billinghurst
>
> On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 2:03 AM, Alex Brollo 
> wrote:
> > I'm deeply convinced that splitting wikisource projects into variuos
> > languages has been a mistake.
> >
> > Is anyone so bold to imagine that it is possible to revert that mistake?
> >
> > Or, are we forced to travel along the diabolicum trail?
> >
> > Alex
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Wikisource-l mailing list
> > Wikisource-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
> >
>
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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Alex Brollo]

Thanks for interest.
I work mainly into it.source, but I often try to work a little bit into
other projects too for a number of reasons. I find unknown templates,
tools, policies, all from them very interesting; and I do too some effort
to import them into it.source, but it's difficult, since diversity grows
daily and some good ideas are very difficult to implement into different
contexts.

I'm only a wikisource active user, not more than this, I've not sufficient
technical or organizing skills to build a project to revert what I see as a
big mistake, and I'm far from sure that my opinion is right; but I feel the
need to share this personal opinion.

About mul.source: my suggestion would be, to activate into it best tools
and gadgets, best templates, best policies and best docs;  to remove as
soon as possible any trouble for its users; and to encourage users to
upload there any multi-language book.

Alex






2015-11-28 12:54 GMT+01:00 Bodhisattwa Mandal :

> Hi,
>
> I failed to understand how splitting Wikisource projects in different
> languages had been a mistake and how that affected communities badly.
>
> As part of Bengali Wikisource community, I can only say, we are doing well
> and we don't want to return back to old multilingual Wikisource.
>
> Regards,
> Bodhisattwa
> On 28 Nov 2015 16:10, "billinghurst"  wrote:
>
>> I see an argument unsupported by evidence, and without evidence it
>> approaches baseless and without value.
>>
>> Please go and write an essay about the matter at
>> https://wikisource.org/ referencing the original argument for the
>> split, and how the reintroduction of a single site would be of value,
>> and how it might be done. In fact how it will be better than now.
>> Otherwise all I see is a doom and gloom worry-wort.
>>
>> Regards, Billinghurst
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 2:03 AM, Alex Brollo 
>> wrote:
>> > I'm deeply convinced that splitting wikisource projects into variuos
>> > languages has been a mistake.
>> >
>> > Is anyone so bold to imagine that it is possible to revert that mistake?
>> >
>> > Or, are we forced to travel along the diabolicum trail?
>> >
>> > Alex
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Wikisource-l mailing list
>> > Wikisource-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
>> >
>>
>> ___
>> Wikisource-l mailing list
>> Wikisource-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
>>
>
> ___
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Re: [Wikisource-l] [Wikitech-l] Introducing WikiToLearn to developers

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Your code modifications for http://wikitolearn.org/ are interesting. I'm 
pretty sure that KDE policies don't force you to fork MediaWiki 
extensions locally, so your patches are definitely welcome upstream.


I'm not sure what you mean with your point about  being rejected 
by the community; perhaps you refer to some performance decision made by 
WMF. If your modifications to Math are incompatible with some decision 
of the maintainers, you can ask a different repository on gerrit or 
another branch on the same repository, so that non-WMF users can use 
your code.


As for your comments on chapters and drafts, I don't see anything 
incompatible with how Wikibooks and Wikiversity work. If you have a 
solution for what we call "book management" i.e. 
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T17071 (worked on by Raylton and 
others with 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:GSoC_Mediawiki_Book_Experience 
), that's especially interesting.


To reach the Wikibooks and Wikiversity community, the best way is to use 
a medium that can involve their active editors, such as their mailing 
lists (cc'ed here) or wikis.


Nemo


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[Wikisource-l] Fwd: [Wikimedia-l] TPP - copyright

[Jayanta Nath]

-- Forwarded message --
From: *Gnangarra* 
Date: Friday 6 November 2015
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] TPP - copyright
To: Wikimedia Mailing List , "
affilia...@lists.wikimedia.org" , Wikimedia
Commons Discussion List 


We have a new problem to face in the coming months assuming countries
ratify the Trans Pacific Partnership
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership

The text of the agreement has been released in the last 24 hours, early
commentary is indicating that copyright changes will occur restoring
copyright to some works that are currently PD.
http://boingboing.net/2015/11/06/how-tpp-will-clobber-canadas.html

According reports this will affect media sourced in Canada where copyright
will be extended from 50-70 years meaning that image sin this period may
need to be deleted both on commons and on en:wp, Australian sourced images
face a similar issue as will other countries.

Rather than a piece meal commons copyright battle, and a duplicate one on
en:wp being lead by  unqualified wikilawyers resulting in project
discrepancies. I'm calling on the community to take  more holistic approach
and request that the WMF ask for its legal eagles to give an edict we can
take or communities to explain what will happen in each jurisdiction as the
TPP is ratified.

This will also give us guidance as to how Affiliates can approach and
support activities locally  to ensure material that is already freely
available remains so.



--
G
​ideon

President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Lane Rasberry]

Hello,

Some templates ought to be universally available but if that is the heart
of the problem then that does not settle a call for a merge because the
split brought other benefits and the template problems will be fixed
eventually.

Are there other problems associated with the split which have not been
addressed and which bother you?




On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 10:44 AM, Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:

> Alex Brollo wrote:
> > I work mainly into it.source, but I often try to work a little bit into
> other projects too for a number of reasons. I find unknown templates,
> tools, policies, all from them very interesting; and I do too some effort
> to import them into it.source, but it's difficult, since diversity grows
> daily and some good ideas are very difficult to implement into different
> contexts.
>
> This sounds like the same ENORMOUS problem that Wikipedia has. Wikipedia
> in each language has thousands of templates and scripts and gadgets, they
> are different, they are not synchronized, they are not internationalized,
> their code is not properly reviewed, and so on. This is not to say that
> they are bad - contrariwise, they are wonderful, they are developed by
> skillful people, and the very fact that they exist shows that they are
> needed. But it does complicate the development of extensions that are
> supposed to work in all wikis, and it complicates usual wiki authors'
> cross-language work.
>
> I'd love to get that fixed for both Wikipedia and Wikisource, but it will
> be a big challenge.
>
> Originally Wikisource was split because right-to-left Hebrew texts didn't
> work with the left-to-right only interface. This was a technical issue and
> it was mostly resolved in 2011 by SPQRobin, so maybe today it wouldn't be
> split for this reason. But what's done is done.
>
> What is really needed is defining the actual problems and addressing them.
> Going back to Mulitlingual Wikisource may or may not be the solution, but
> the problems must be defined first.
>
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
>
> 2015-11-27 17:03 GMT+02:00 Alex Brollo :
>
>> I'm deeply convinced that splitting wikisource projects into variuos
>> languages has been a mistake.
>>
>> Is anyone so bold to imagine that it is possible to revert that mistake?
>>
>> Or, are we forced to travel along the* diabolicum* trail?
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Wikisource-l mailing list
>> Wikisource-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
>>
>>
>
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>


-- 
Lane Rasberry
user:bluerasberry on Wikipedia
206.801.0814
l...@bluerasberry.com
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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Amir E. Aharoni]

Alex Brollo wrote:
> I work mainly into it.source, but I often try to work a little bit into
other projects too for a number of reasons. I find unknown templates,
tools, policies, all from them very interesting; and I do too some effort
to import them into it.source, but it's difficult, since diversity grows
daily and some good ideas are very difficult to implement into different
contexts.

This sounds like the same ENORMOUS problem that Wikipedia has. Wikipedia in
each language has thousands of templates and scripts and gadgets, they are
different, they are not synchronized, they are not internationalized, their
code is not properly reviewed, and so on. This is not to say that they are
bad - contrariwise, they are wonderful, they are developed by skillful
people, and the very fact that they exist shows that they are needed. But
it does complicate the development of extensions that are supposed to work
in all wikis, and it complicates usual wiki authors' cross-language work.

I'd love to get that fixed for both Wikipedia and Wikisource, but it will
be a big challenge.

Originally Wikisource was split because right-to-left Hebrew texts didn't
work with the left-to-right only interface. This was a technical issue and
it was mostly resolved in 2011 by SPQRobin, so maybe today it wouldn't be
split for this reason. But what's done is done.

What is really needed is defining the actual problems and addressing them.
Going back to Mulitlingual Wikisource may or may not be the solution, but
the problems must be defined first.


--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

2015-11-27 17:03 GMT+02:00 Alex Brollo :

> I'm deeply convinced that splitting wikisource projects into variuos
> languages has been a mistake.
>
> Is anyone so bold to imagine that it is possible to revert that mistake?
>
> Or, are we forced to travel along the* diabolicum* trail?
>
> Alex
>
>
>
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Ilario Valdelli]

Unfortunately the communities use different languages. To improve the 
communication it's natural to split wikisource in different projects.


The same is valid also to implement solutions because it is easier to do 
it in smaller communities than to find an agreement satisfying the whole 
community.


Anyway an integration is welcome and can be a good solution but if 
Wikisource can offer the solution to build smaller linguistical 
subprojects inside a bigger one in order to keep an uniformity but also 
to satisfy the need of diversity.


Kind regards

On 28.11.2015 14:26, Alex Brollo wrote:

Thanks for interest.
I work mainly into it.source, but I often try to work a little bit 
into other projects too for a number of reasons. I find unknown 
templates, tools, policies, all from them very interesting; and I do 
too some effort to import them into it.source, but it's difficult, 
since diversity grows daily and some good ideas are very difficult to 
implement into different contexts.


I'm only a wikisource active user, not more than this, I've not 
sufficient technical or organizing skills to build a project to revert 
what I see as a big mistake, and I'm far from sure that my opinion is 
right; but I feel the need to share this personal opinion.


About mul.source: my suggestion would be, to activate into it best 
tools and gadgets, best templates, best policies and best docs;  to 
remove as soon as possible any trouble for its users; and to encourage 
users to upload there any multi-language book.


Alex








--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch


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Re: [Wikisource-l] Wikisource birthday contest

[Andrea Zanni]

Your link does not work: anyway, here there are the upadated dates...
https://gist.github.com/Aubreymcfato/445ae33d78ef58f3b49c

Aubrey

On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 2:39 PM, Ricordisamoa 
wrote:

> I've got a rough scoreboard here
> . I guess you'll have
> to tweak the dates.
>
>
> Il 26/11/2015 23:52, Andrea Zanni ha scritto:
>
> Thanks Carles for the info:
> do you know if Joan has a updated version of his script for counting votes?
> I tried to use the last version I'm aware of, but it doesn't work:
> https://gist.github.com/Aubreymcfato/445ae33d78ef58f3b49c
>
> Aubrey
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 11:08 PM, Carles Paredes Lanau <
> carlespare...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Catalan community doesn't run any contest for birthday of Wikisource,
>> because participation rate was low last year. We are working in other ideas
>> to improve our content and to grow our number of active users.
>>
>> Carles
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Bohdan Melnychuk]

That's the same I have been thinking.

It does not make sense to split it. Besides while for Wikipedia we have 
Belarussian Wikipedia in official and tarashkevitsa orthographies in 
wikisourse that would be one project. Russian Wikisourse hosts tests in 
pre-1918 (or whatever exact year) orthography. Ukrainian Wikisourse has 
texts which use unique orthography. I'll repeat myself, in case of WP 
that would all be different projects.


Besides it does not make bit sense to have la.ws in Latin for 
discussions since people can proofread stuff without actually being able 
to speak la.


Another thing in la.ws there's a book which is half Russian half Latin. 
It would fit multilingual ws just perfectly but now it looks weird. 
There are lots of such bi or more lingual books in the world.


As to the communication problems well WD and Commons are doing just 
fine, it's no problem really. I am actually not an active contributor to 
WS but I always had a feeling that I'd perhaps be one if it was not 
split. It's easier to work in big project with all infrastructure ready 
and big community to help you, in small on the other hand you have to 
face the same 1 or 2 people or the time and personal issues may come in 
the way of participation.


I am not a person to have enough energy to run a major RfC in order to 
have the WSs joined (as you can see I even failed to show my points in a 
structured way) but if such a person shows up I'd gladly support such an 
initiative.


--Base

On 27.11.2015 17:03, Alex Brollo wrote:
I'm deeply convinced that splitting wikisource projects into variuos 
languages has been a mistake.


Is anyone so bold to imagine that it is possible to revert that mistake?

Or, are we forced to travel along the/ diabolicum/ trail?

Alex





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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Ankry]

Maybe it is "fine" but I am afraid it is only "fine" for majority (that
speaks English or at least one major European language). As an example,
note, that there is very few discussion in Chinese in Village pump despite
there is a lot Chinese users there and many of them do not speak English.

It is very difficult to operate on Commons for users that speak only Thai,
Urdu, Bashkir, Hindi or another not highly populated language.

Also there are attempts to discriminate users who do not speak / do not
understand English.

IMO, there is high risk that merging all wikisources would marginalize
minorities or people who are not multilingual.

The other issue is (I noticed it in plwikisoure) that few users come to
wikisource because they feel bad in large wiki communities (plwiki in our
case). (I don't know if there are similar cases in otner wikisources, but
likely.) In case, we decide to merge projects they will leave.
So disadvantage here is the risk of losing users that we do not have too
many.

However, there are also advantages of unification and closer cooperation.
Question is: will they predominate?

Ankry

> As to the communication problems well WD and Commons are doing just
> fine, it's no problem really. I am actually not an active contributor to
> WS but I always had a feeling that I'd perhaps be one if it was not
> split. It's easier to work in big project with all infrastructure ready
> and big community to help you, in small on the other hand you have to
> face the same 1 or 2 people or the time and personal issues may come in
> the way of participation.
>
> I am not a person to have enough energy to run a major RfC in order to
> have the WSs joined (as you can see I even failed to show my points in a
> structured way) but if such a person shows up I'd gladly support such an
> initiative.
>
> --Base
>
> On 27.11.2015 17:03, Alex Brollo wrote:
>> I'm deeply convinced that splitting wikisource projects into variuos
>> languages has been a mistake.
>>
>> Is anyone so bold to imagine that it is possible to revert that mistake?
>>
>> Or, are we forced to travel along the/ diabolicum/ trail?
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> Wikisource-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
>
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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi,

During the recent Wikisource Conference in Vienna, need for global gadgets,
templates and module was discussed and already it has been reported in
Phabricator ( https ://
phabricator.wikimedia.org
/T1238
 ). So someday, the problem will
be solved.

To me, it is not at all a good idea to return back to multilingual WS for
this reason. The diversity of the language projects make Wikimedia movement
unique which includes Wikisource as well. Every language and scripts has
its own unique problem, which can not be generalised at all. Besides, if
some WS community choose to return back to multilingual, I think, that's
possible, but not every WS community would want or like to do that.

Regards,
Bodhisattwa
Maybe it is "fine" but I am afraid it is only "fine" for majority (that
speaks English or at least one major European language). As an example,
note, that there is very few discussion in Chinese in Village pump despite
there is a lot Chinese users there and many of them do not speak English.

It is very difficult to operate on Commons for users that speak only Thai,
Urdu, Bashkir, Hindi or another not highly populated language.

Also there are attempts to discriminate users who do not speak / do not
understand English.

IMO, there is high risk that merging all wikisources would marginalize
minorities or people who are not multilingual.

The other issue is (I noticed it in plwikisoure) that few users come to
wikisource because they feel bad in large wiki communities (plwiki in our
case). (I don't know if there are similar cases in otner wikisources, but
likely.) In case, we decide to merge projects they will leave.
So disadvantage here is the risk of losing users that we do not have too
many.

However, there are also advantages of unification and closer cooperation.
Question is: will they predominate?

Ankry

> As to the communication problems well WD and Commons are doing just
> fine, it's no problem really. I am actually not an active contributor to
> WS but I always had a feeling that I'd perhaps be one if it was not
> split. It's easier to work in big project with all infrastructure ready
> and big community to help you, in small on the other hand you have to
> face the same 1 or 2 people or the time and personal issues may come in
> the way of participation.
>
> I am not a person to have enough energy to run a major RfC in order to
> have the WSs joined (as you can see I even failed to show my points in a
> structured way) but if such a person shows up I'd gladly support such an
> initiative.
>
> --Base
>
> On 27.11.2015 17:03, Alex Brollo wrote:
>> I'm deeply convinced that splitting wikisource projects into variuos
>> languages has been a mistake.
>>
>> Is anyone so bold to imagine that it is possible to revert that mistake?
>>
>> Or, are we forced to travel along the/ diabolicum/ trail?
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Wikisource-l mailing list
>> Wikisource-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
>
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