Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Ilario Valdelli]

What Federico is saying is really important in my opinion.

Wikisource can have a good impulse offering a huge set of different
languages while other digital libraries are offering the usual and most
used languages.

The best would be to approach the problem step by step and working with
languages having weak communities where the aggregation in a single hub can
offer them a real opportunity and keeping other biggest communities still
indipendent to solve their problems.

Even if the community decides to look for an aggregation, what would be the
next step? Merging all together with an un-manageable change?

I think that the good solution is to improve the central project and to
introduce the best solution to have several languages and to contextualize
the page, afterwards other linguistic projects can decide to look for an
aggregation (may be in connection with the decrease of size of their
communities) or to keep their independence.

Kind regards



On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 10:44 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) 
wrote:

> Ankry, 29/11/2015 23:22:
>
>> >
>>> >What about two multilanguage Wikisources? One for RTL languages, another
>>> >for LTR languages.
>>>
>> ... and the third for some Asian scripts:
>> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T60729  ?
>>
>> And maybe a separate one for French:
>> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T14752  ?
>>
>> If you dig deeper then more such issues.
>>
>
> Again, this problem is already solved: content language can be decided per
> page. As usual, this is blocked on silly bottlenecks on WMF servers:
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T69223
>
> Nemo
>
>
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-- 
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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Andrea Zanni]

Maybe it's me,
but I think that we are missing the real, huge point: *we are not ready for
this*.

I mean, we, as a community: in the few days in Vienna, we discovered how
many problems each Wikisource and community has, and that was the first
time we had the chance to meet and talk (at that scale).
Yes, being all in the same place would maybe shorten the distance within
the international community, but it would be an enormous challenge for the
amount of software tweakings (gadgets, css, proofread page, layouts,
everything), and it would be a real, literal "babel" of languages.
And, remember, without the support of any engineer at the WMF! :-)

So, please, keep our feet on the ground. Xanadu was the perfect model for a
digital library, and after 50 years is still not real. Our problem, in
Wikisource, is that each community has created little, complicated gadgets
and templates to do amazing things, but the result is that we are overly
complicated.
We need to simplify things, be better for our readers and beginners, new
editors.
Our strength is the community, above everything else.
That we have to nurture and care about.

As much as I love the idea of a unique, Babelian (Borges style) digital
library, it won't happen if before we don't fix much more urgent things.
Multilingual texts are not a priority (35 people in the conference didn't
even mention them, I think).

Aubrey



On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 10:44 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) 
wrote:

> Ankry, 29/11/2015 23:22:
>
>> >
>>> >What about two multilanguage Wikisources? One for RTL languages, another
>>> >for LTR languages.
>>>
>> ... and the third for some Asian scripts:
>> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T60729  ?
>>
>> And maybe a separate one for French:
>> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T14752  ?
>>
>> If you dig deeper then more such issues.
>>
>
> Again, this problem is already solved: content language can be decided per
> page. As usual, this is blocked on silly bottlenecks on WMF servers:
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T69223
>
> Nemo
>
>
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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

billinghurst, 28/11/2015 11:40:

Please go and write an essay about the matter at
https://wikisource.org/  referencing the original argument for the
split, and how the reintroduction of a single site would be of value,
and how it might be done. In fact how it will be better than now.
Otherwise all I see is a doom and gloom worry-wort.


+1
Following some recent discussions on NPOV, content forking AKA 
separatism and so on, I expanded an existing essay on Meta with a 
summary of the main discussions in ~2003 and 2015.


There is a section where I briefly mentioned Wikisource, it would be 
great to link a Wikisource.org essay where to examine all pros and cons 
of the Wikisource split: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Why_creating_new_wikis_is_a_bad_idea#Language_subdomains


Nemo

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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Alex Brollo]

I'm testing a feature of djvu files, t.i. the possibility of upload into a
shared internal file, or into pages, *any unlimited text of any type*. Html
could be upload (with banal encoding) and downloaded. It's only a play so
far; but I think that it could be interesting to explore, since there's the
opportunity to invisibly wrap into djvu page *the html of wikisource nsPage*
- so allowing to extract, visualize, and use it with a "reader" by basic
djvulibre routines (djvused.exe) and some code.

Obviously, there are serious safety issues and a need of sanitization -
"any text" is an alarming statement.

Alex

2015-11-30 2:23 GMT+01:00 Luiz Augusto :

>
>
> On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 8:22 PM, Ankry  wrote:
>
>> > What about two multilanguage Wikisources? One for RTL languages, another
>> > for LTR languages.
>>
>> ... and the third for some Asian scripts:
>> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T60729 ?
>>
>> And maybe a separate one for French:
>> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T14752 ?
>>
>> If you dig deeper then more such issues.
>>
>>
> Those are related on how MediaWiki renders text, so can be easily
> circumvented in a multilingual wiki adding a new feature to instruct
> MediaWiki to renders based in a given language. If in Page namespace,
> adding to the current
> 
> tag a lang parameter
> 
>
> or, for pages with texts in more than one language (such quotations), on
> LabeledSectionTransclusion tags, making
> 
> 
> as
> 
> 
>
> (T14752 is not related to ProofreadPage extension, but the language trick
> can be added on this way as a shortcut for some possible new MediaWiki
> parser tags)
>
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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Mathieu Stumpf Guntz, 29/11/2015 18:57:

What about having both central and local versions? I mean, for community
stuffs localization is clearly a big pro, and those who are more
interesting to get extra-localized works could go to the central
repository which would gather all localized mainspaces.


Do oldwikisource admins currently force people to go away if their 
language is supported elsewhere? I seem to recall we decided in the past 
that it's fine to put a text there if you're unsure what subdomain would 
be best (think of "dialects" of languages with an existing subdomain, or 
multilingual texts).


Nemo

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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Alex Brollo]

There's a unique feature of wikisource: anyone can contribute, even if
he *doesn't
know at all the language of the text that it is editing* (it is sufficient
to recognize the characters of that language). It would be a little bit
painful, but I could proofread an hungarian text, finding and fixing some
scannos. A small contribute, but a valuable one. On the contrary, I can't
contribute at all to any other hungarian project.
I could too apply some basic formatting to the same, incomprehensible
hungarian text, but only using standard wiki markup, or css/html, that
are *universal
languages*. I could do most of needed work using shared templates and
scripts, without any knowledge of the hungarian language.

This uniqueness of wikisource (only shared by images and other media into
Commons) has been underestimated IMHO.

Alex

2015-11-29 14:48 GMT+01:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) :

> Asaf Bartov, 29/11/2015 14:40:
>
>> One significant advantage of per-language Wikisources is that the
>> interface language is appropriate
>>
>
> That's a bug, as well: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T58464
>
> I agree it's shameful that WMF doesn't fix the most fundamental bugs which
> make collaboration harder, even when they've been known for a decade AND
> software is available to fix them.
>
> Nemo
>
>
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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Ankry]

> Mathieu Stumpf Guntz, 29/11/2015 18:57:
>> What about having both central and local versions? I mean, for community
>> stuffs localization is clearly a big pro, and those who are more
>> interesting to get extra-localized works could go to the central
>> repository which would gather all localized mainspaces.
>
> Do oldwikisource admins currently force people to go away if their
> language is supported elsewhere?

Yes they do.
Unless there are non-US copyright problems ot the text is really
multilingual.

Ankry



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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Luiz Augusto]

On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 3:39 PM, Andrea Zanni 
wrote:

> (...)
>
> Unfortunately, for the time being, we hare scattered communities with no
> software support whatsoever: we don't have a Proofread page for
> Right-to-left languages, just imagine how much time it would take to
> redesign a MediaWiki for being a  multilanguage, unique digital library, in
> which anyone can contribute.
> (...)
>

What about two multilanguage Wikisources? One for RTL languages, another
for LTR languages. Or at least one multilanguage Wikisource for languages
based on roman script

It's very disturbing to work on Wikisource if you is interested in a
subject and is able to read in more than one language. On the very specif
subject of "slavery on Brazil" you will find works in Portuguese, Spanish,
English, French, German and Latin, with at least 90% of them never
translated to another language.

Also is very annoying to create thousands of Author pages to simply show
snippets of biographical data for persons mentioned in a given work, since
any regular research work (current or ancient) *will* refer to works in
more than one language; most of those persons don't have any work
translated to your language, PD-old or copyrighted, but you still will need
to create an Author page if you is interested to help readers to proper
understand a given text.

BTW this need pointed me to create a new local innovation: a template to
point the reader to the Wikisource edition that will have works by a given
person ({{autor-idioma}}). And, to prevent good faith users uploading
copyrighted translations, there's also the need to put an old local
innovation from es.Wikisource (currently adopted in many subdomains,
en.Wikisource including). See the

https://pt.wikisource.org/wiki/Autor:Bonaventure_des_P%C3%A9riers

Not to mention that each subdomain have their own way to sort and store
data on Author namespace, that certainly is the crossing barrier for those
that searchs for a subject on libraries OPACs to never adopt Wikisource as
a search point (eventually going to Wikisource pages thanks to Google
search): they don't have time to be trained on 60 subdomains website
designs to research to find information in a language that they are able to
read (or to translate using a software).

In this current subdomain approach, Wikisource will be able to proper store
only fiction works (since language is the main criteria for adopting a
fiction work to read), but never non-fiction works (neither non-fiction
works that describes fiction works: the world was culturally globalized
centuries ago).
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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Ankry]

> On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 3:39 PM, Andrea Zanni 
> wrote:
>
>> (...)
>>
>> Unfortunately, for the time being, we hare scattered communities with no
>> software support whatsoever: we don't have a Proofread page for
>> Right-to-left languages, just imagine how much time it would take to
>> redesign a MediaWiki for being a  multilanguage, unique digital library,
>> in
>> which anyone can contribute.
>> (...)
>>
>
> What about two multilanguage Wikisources? One for RTL languages, another
> for LTR languages.

... and the third for some Asian scripts:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T60729 ?

And maybe a separate one for French:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T14752 ?

If you dig deeper then more such issues.

Ankry


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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Andrea Zanni]

In theory, I agree with Alex: in an ideal world, we would have tens of
developers supporting Wikisource (paid by the WMF, by the chaptes, by
GLAMs), we would have many rich communities, and we could surely imagine a
new structure of all our websites would that allow us to store books in the
same place, and at the same time have different village pumps and
interfaces and gadgets etc.

Unfortunately, for the time being, we hare scattered communities with no
software support whatsoever: we don't have a Proofread page for
Right-to-left languages, just imagine how much time it would take to
redesign a MediaWiki for being a  multilanguage, unique digital library, in
which anyone can contribute.


I try to be more concrete and think about smaller goals we can achieve
right now: maybe, in few years we can rediscuss this :-)

Aubrey


On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 6:12 PM, Alex Brollo  wrote:

> There's a unique feature of wikisource: anyone can contribute, even if he 
> *doesn't
> know at all the language of the text that it is editing* (it is
> sufficient to recognize the characters of that language). It would be a
> little bit painful, but I could proofread an hungarian text, finding and
> fixing some scannos. A small contribute, but a valuable one. On the
> contrary, I can't contribute at all to any other hungarian project.
> I could too apply some basic formatting to the same, incomprehensible
> hungarian text, but only using standard wiki markup, or css/html, that are 
> *universal
> languages*. I could do most of needed work using shared templates and
> scripts, without any knowledge of the hungarian language.
>
> This uniqueness of wikisource (only shared by images and other media into
> Commons) has been underestimated IMHO.
>
> Alex
>
> 2015-11-29 14:48 GMT+01:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) :
>
>> Asaf Bartov, 29/11/2015 14:40:
>>
>>> One significant advantage of per-language Wikisources is that the
>>> interface language is appropriate
>>>
>>
>> That's a bug, as well: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T58464
>>
>> I agree it's shameful that WMF doesn't fix the most fundamental bugs
>> which make collaboration harder, even when they've been known for a decade
>> AND software is available to fix them.
>>
>> Nemo
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Asaf Bartov, 29/11/2015 14:40:

One significant advantage of per-language Wikisources is that the
interface language is appropriate


That's a bug, as well: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T58464

I agree it's shameful that WMF doesn't fix the most fundamental bugs 
which make collaboration harder, even when they've been known for a 
decade AND software is available to fix them.


Nemo

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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Luiz Augusto]

On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 8:22 PM, Ankry  wrote:

> > What about two multilanguage Wikisources? One for RTL languages, another
> > for LTR languages.
>
> ... and the third for some Asian scripts:
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T60729 ?
>
> And maybe a separate one for French:
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T14752 ?
>
> If you dig deeper then more such issues.
>
>
Those are related on how MediaWiki renders text, so can be easily
circumvented in a multilingual wiki adding a new feature to instruct
MediaWiki to renders based in a given language. If in Page namespace,
adding to the current

tag a lang parameter


or, for pages with texts in more than one language (such quotations), on
LabeledSectionTransclusion tags, making


as



(T14752 is not related to ProofreadPage extension, but the language trick
can be added on this way as a shortcut for some possible new MediaWiki
parser tags)
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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Mathieu Stumpf Guntz]

Le 28/11/2015 14:26, Alex Brollo a écrit :

Thanks for interest.
I work mainly into it.source, but I often try to work a little bit 
into other projects too for a number of reasons. I find unknown 
templates, tools, policies, all from them very interesting; and I do 
too some effort to import them into it.source, but it's difficult, 
since diversity grows daily and some good ideas are very difficult to 
implement into different contexts.
This is more a problem of enbling easy cross wiki template (and module) 
reuse. See for example https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T6547



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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi,

I failed to understand how splitting Wikisource projects in different
languages had been a mistake and how that affected communities badly.

As part of Bengali Wikisource community, I can only say, we are doing well
and we don't want to return back to old multilingual Wikisource.

Regards,
Bodhisattwa
On 28 Nov 2015 16:10, "billinghurst"  wrote:

> I see an argument unsupported by evidence, and without evidence it
> approaches baseless and without value.
>
> Please go and write an essay about the matter at
> https://wikisource.org/ referencing the original argument for the
> split, and how the reintroduction of a single site would be of value,
> and how it might be done. In fact how it will be better than now.
> Otherwise all I see is a doom and gloom worry-wort.
>
> Regards, Billinghurst
>
> On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 2:03 AM, Alex Brollo 
> wrote:
> > I'm deeply convinced that splitting wikisource projects into variuos
> > languages has been a mistake.
> >
> > Is anyone so bold to imagine that it is possible to revert that mistake?
> >
> > Or, are we forced to travel along the diabolicum trail?
> >
> > Alex
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
>
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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Alex Brollo]

Thanks for interest.
I work mainly into it.source, but I often try to work a little bit into
other projects too for a number of reasons. I find unknown templates,
tools, policies, all from them very interesting; and I do too some effort
to import them into it.source, but it's difficult, since diversity grows
daily and some good ideas are very difficult to implement into different
contexts.

I'm only a wikisource active user, not more than this, I've not sufficient
technical or organizing skills to build a project to revert what I see as a
big mistake, and I'm far from sure that my opinion is right; but I feel the
need to share this personal opinion.

About mul.source: my suggestion would be, to activate into it best tools
and gadgets, best templates, best policies and best docs;  to remove as
soon as possible any trouble for its users; and to encourage users to
upload there any multi-language book.

Alex






2015-11-28 12:54 GMT+01:00 Bodhisattwa Mandal :

> Hi,
>
> I failed to understand how splitting Wikisource projects in different
> languages had been a mistake and how that affected communities badly.
>
> As part of Bengali Wikisource community, I can only say, we are doing well
> and we don't want to return back to old multilingual Wikisource.
>
> Regards,
> Bodhisattwa
> On 28 Nov 2015 16:10, "billinghurst"  wrote:
>
>> I see an argument unsupported by evidence, and without evidence it
>> approaches baseless and without value.
>>
>> Please go and write an essay about the matter at
>> https://wikisource.org/ referencing the original argument for the
>> split, and how the reintroduction of a single site would be of value,
>> and how it might be done. In fact how it will be better than now.
>> Otherwise all I see is a doom and gloom worry-wort.
>>
>> Regards, Billinghurst
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 2:03 AM, Alex Brollo 
>> wrote:
>> > I'm deeply convinced that splitting wikisource projects into variuos
>> > languages has been a mistake.
>> >
>> > Is anyone so bold to imagine that it is possible to revert that mistake?
>> >
>> > Or, are we forced to travel along the diabolicum trail?
>> >
>> > Alex
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
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>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
>> >
>>
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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Lane Rasberry]

Hello,

Some templates ought to be universally available but if that is the heart
of the problem then that does not settle a call for a merge because the
split brought other benefits and the template problems will be fixed
eventually.

Are there other problems associated with the split which have not been
addressed and which bother you?




On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 10:44 AM, Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:

> Alex Brollo wrote:
> > I work mainly into it.source, but I often try to work a little bit into
> other projects too for a number of reasons. I find unknown templates,
> tools, policies, all from them very interesting; and I do too some effort
> to import them into it.source, but it's difficult, since diversity grows
> daily and some good ideas are very difficult to implement into different
> contexts.
>
> This sounds like the same ENORMOUS problem that Wikipedia has. Wikipedia
> in each language has thousands of templates and scripts and gadgets, they
> are different, they are not synchronized, they are not internationalized,
> their code is not properly reviewed, and so on. This is not to say that
> they are bad - contrariwise, they are wonderful, they are developed by
> skillful people, and the very fact that they exist shows that they are
> needed. But it does complicate the development of extensions that are
> supposed to work in all wikis, and it complicates usual wiki authors'
> cross-language work.
>
> I'd love to get that fixed for both Wikipedia and Wikisource, but it will
> be a big challenge.
>
> Originally Wikisource was split because right-to-left Hebrew texts didn't
> work with the left-to-right only interface. This was a technical issue and
> it was mostly resolved in 2011 by SPQRobin, so maybe today it wouldn't be
> split for this reason. But what's done is done.
>
> What is really needed is defining the actual problems and addressing them.
> Going back to Mulitlingual Wikisource may or may not be the solution, but
> the problems must be defined first.
>
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
>
> 2015-11-27 17:03 GMT+02:00 Alex Brollo :
>
>> I'm deeply convinced that splitting wikisource projects into variuos
>> languages has been a mistake.
>>
>> Is anyone so bold to imagine that it is possible to revert that mistake?
>>
>> Or, are we forced to travel along the* diabolicum* trail?
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>


-- 
Lane Rasberry
user:bluerasberry on Wikipedia
206.801.0814
l...@bluerasberry.com
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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Amir E. Aharoni]

Alex Brollo wrote:
> I work mainly into it.source, but I often try to work a little bit into
other projects too for a number of reasons. I find unknown templates,
tools, policies, all from them very interesting; and I do too some effort
to import them into it.source, but it's difficult, since diversity grows
daily and some good ideas are very difficult to implement into different
contexts.

This sounds like the same ENORMOUS problem that Wikipedia has. Wikipedia in
each language has thousands of templates and scripts and gadgets, they are
different, they are not synchronized, they are not internationalized, their
code is not properly reviewed, and so on. This is not to say that they are
bad - contrariwise, they are wonderful, they are developed by skillful
people, and the very fact that they exist shows that they are needed. But
it does complicate the development of extensions that are supposed to work
in all wikis, and it complicates usual wiki authors' cross-language work.

I'd love to get that fixed for both Wikipedia and Wikisource, but it will
be a big challenge.

Originally Wikisource was split because right-to-left Hebrew texts didn't
work with the left-to-right only interface. This was a technical issue and
it was mostly resolved in 2011 by SPQRobin, so maybe today it wouldn't be
split for this reason. But what's done is done.

What is really needed is defining the actual problems and addressing them.
Going back to Mulitlingual Wikisource may or may not be the solution, but
the problems must be defined first.


--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

2015-11-27 17:03 GMT+02:00 Alex Brollo :

> I'm deeply convinced that splitting wikisource projects into variuos
> languages has been a mistake.
>
> Is anyone so bold to imagine that it is possible to revert that mistake?
>
> Or, are we forced to travel along the* diabolicum* trail?
>
> Alex
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> Wikisource-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
>
>
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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Ilario Valdelli]

Unfortunately the communities use different languages. To improve the 
communication it's natural to split wikisource in different projects.


The same is valid also to implement solutions because it is easier to do 
it in smaller communities than to find an agreement satisfying the whole 
community.


Anyway an integration is welcome and can be a good solution but if 
Wikisource can offer the solution to build smaller linguistical 
subprojects inside a bigger one in order to keep an uniformity but also 
to satisfy the need of diversity.


Kind regards

On 28.11.2015 14:26, Alex Brollo wrote:

Thanks for interest.
I work mainly into it.source, but I often try to work a little bit 
into other projects too for a number of reasons. I find unknown 
templates, tools, policies, all from them very interesting; and I do 
too some effort to import them into it.source, but it's difficult, 
since diversity grows daily and some good ideas are very difficult to 
implement into different contexts.


I'm only a wikisource active user, not more than this, I've not 
sufficient technical or organizing skills to build a project to revert 
what I see as a big mistake, and I'm far from sure that my opinion is 
right; but I feel the need to share this personal opinion.


About mul.source: my suggestion would be, to activate into it best 
tools and gadgets, best templates, best policies and best docs;  to 
remove as soon as possible any trouble for its users; and to encourage 
users to upload there any multi-language book.


Alex








--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch


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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Bohdan Melnychuk]

That's the same I have been thinking.

It does not make sense to split it. Besides while for Wikipedia we have 
Belarussian Wikipedia in official and tarashkevitsa orthographies in 
wikisourse that would be one project. Russian Wikisourse hosts tests in 
pre-1918 (or whatever exact year) orthography. Ukrainian Wikisourse has 
texts which use unique orthography. I'll repeat myself, in case of WP 
that would all be different projects.


Besides it does not make bit sense to have la.ws in Latin for 
discussions since people can proofread stuff without actually being able 
to speak la.


Another thing in la.ws there's a book which is half Russian half Latin. 
It would fit multilingual ws just perfectly but now it looks weird. 
There are lots of such bi or more lingual books in the world.


As to the communication problems well WD and Commons are doing just 
fine, it's no problem really. I am actually not an active contributor to 
WS but I always had a feeling that I'd perhaps be one if it was not 
split. It's easier to work in big project with all infrastructure ready 
and big community to help you, in small on the other hand you have to 
face the same 1 or 2 people or the time and personal issues may come in 
the way of participation.


I am not a person to have enough energy to run a major RfC in order to 
have the WSs joined (as you can see I even failed to show my points in a 
structured way) but if such a person shows up I'd gladly support such an 
initiative.


--Base

On 27.11.2015 17:03, Alex Brollo wrote:
I'm deeply convinced that splitting wikisource projects into variuos 
languages has been a mistake.


Is anyone so bold to imagine that it is possible to revert that mistake?

Or, are we forced to travel along the/ diabolicum/ trail?

Alex





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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Ankry]

Maybe it is "fine" but I am afraid it is only "fine" for majority (that
speaks English or at least one major European language). As an example,
note, that there is very few discussion in Chinese in Village pump despite
there is a lot Chinese users there and many of them do not speak English.

It is very difficult to operate on Commons for users that speak only Thai,
Urdu, Bashkir, Hindi or another not highly populated language.

Also there are attempts to discriminate users who do not speak / do not
understand English.

IMO, there is high risk that merging all wikisources would marginalize
minorities or people who are not multilingual.

The other issue is (I noticed it in plwikisoure) that few users come to
wikisource because they feel bad in large wiki communities (plwiki in our
case). (I don't know if there are similar cases in otner wikisources, but
likely.) In case, we decide to merge projects they will leave.
So disadvantage here is the risk of losing users that we do not have too
many.

However, there are also advantages of unification and closer cooperation.
Question is: will they predominate?

Ankry

> As to the communication problems well WD and Commons are doing just
> fine, it's no problem really. I am actually not an active contributor to
> WS but I always had a feeling that I'd perhaps be one if it was not
> split. It's easier to work in big project with all infrastructure ready
> and big community to help you, in small on the other hand you have to
> face the same 1 or 2 people or the time and personal issues may come in
> the way of participation.
>
> I am not a person to have enough energy to run a major RfC in order to
> have the WSs joined (as you can see I even failed to show my points in a
> structured way) but if such a person shows up I'd gladly support such an
> initiative.
>
> --Base
>
> On 27.11.2015 17:03, Alex Brollo wrote:
>> I'm deeply convinced that splitting wikisource projects into variuos
>> languages has been a mistake.
>>
>> Is anyone so bold to imagine that it is possible to revert that mistake?
>>
>> Or, are we forced to travel along the/ diabolicum/ trail?
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Wikisource-l mailing list
>> Wikisource-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
>
> ___
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> Wikisource-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
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Re: [Wikisource-l] Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi,

During the recent Wikisource Conference in Vienna, need for global gadgets,
templates and module was discussed and already it has been reported in
Phabricator ( https ://
phabricator.wikimedia.org
/T1238
 ). So someday, the problem will
be solved.

To me, it is not at all a good idea to return back to multilingual WS for
this reason. The diversity of the language projects make Wikimedia movement
unique which includes Wikisource as well. Every language and scripts has
its own unique problem, which can not be generalised at all. Besides, if
some WS community choose to return back to multilingual, I think, that's
possible, but not every WS community would want or like to do that.

Regards,
Bodhisattwa
Maybe it is "fine" but I am afraid it is only "fine" for majority (that
speaks English or at least one major European language). As an example,
note, that there is very few discussion in Chinese in Village pump despite
there is a lot Chinese users there and many of them do not speak English.

It is very difficult to operate on Commons for users that speak only Thai,
Urdu, Bashkir, Hindi or another not highly populated language.

Also there are attempts to discriminate users who do not speak / do not
understand English.

IMO, there is high risk that merging all wikisources would marginalize
minorities or people who are not multilingual.

The other issue is (I noticed it in plwikisoure) that few users come to
wikisource because they feel bad in large wiki communities (plwiki in our
case). (I don't know if there are similar cases in otner wikisources, but
likely.) In case, we decide to merge projects they will leave.
So disadvantage here is the risk of losing users that we do not have too
many.

However, there are also advantages of unification and closer cooperation.
Question is: will they predominate?

Ankry

> As to the communication problems well WD and Commons are doing just
> fine, it's no problem really. I am actually not an active contributor to
> WS but I always had a feeling that I'd perhaps be one if it was not
> split. It's easier to work in big project with all infrastructure ready
> and big community to help you, in small on the other hand you have to
> face the same 1 or 2 people or the time and personal issues may come in
> the way of participation.
>
> I am not a person to have enough energy to run a major RfC in order to
> have the WSs joined (as you can see I even failed to show my points in a
> structured way) but if such a person shows up I'd gladly support such an
> initiative.
>
> --Base
>
> On 27.11.2015 17:03, Alex Brollo wrote:
>> I'm deeply convinced that splitting wikisource projects into variuos
>> languages has been a mistake.
>>
>> Is anyone so bold to imagine that it is possible to revert that mistake?
>>
>> Or, are we forced to travel along the/ diabolicum/ trail?
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Wikisource-l mailing list
>> Wikisource-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
>
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
>



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