Re: [Wikisource-l] more to edition(s) <-> edition or translation of

[Erasmo Barresi]

I agree with Billinghurst that user-made translations do not necessarily have 
to be dealt with the same way published editions/translations are. However, if 
the user-made translation is connected to the same WD item as the original work 
(edition, actually), then we should indicate which of the Wikisource links 
really leads to the text the statements refer to (i.e., the original work). 
This can easily be done with property 953, "full text available at".

Erasmo Barresi

> Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2015 07:59:46 +
> From: billinghurst 
> To: "discussion list for Wikisource, the free library"
> , novar...@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Wikisource-l] more to edition(s) <-> edition or
> translation of
> Message-ID:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Nahum,
>
> I suppose the predominant part of my discussion was focusing on published
> translations, rather than WS-generated translations.
>
> 1) because many famous works have (famous) published translations, each
> with their own translator(s), date of publication, publisher, ... all
> worthy of noting and WD'ing.
>
> 2) you can only link to one work per wiki at WD, and as an example of an
> issue , I know of numbers of Chekov's works that enWS hosts where we have
> multiple published translations. So enWS needs a means for link generation
> for many to one (at ruWS), or for English language works, we may need a one
> to any.
>
> When it comes to WS-generated translations, I can see that we may or may
> not wish to call those translations their own edition. If a translation
> passes a notability check of its own edition, then separate, if not, maybe
> then it comes off the other original language work. (Maybe leave that
> decision with the xxWS to determine???).
>
> What I am hoping to see is a tool that provides the maximum flexibity and
> credibility for the WSes, yet gives best visibility and authority at WD.
>
> Billinghurst
>
> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 12:35 Nahum Wengrov  wrote:
>
>> Wait a minute.
>> If a work esists in, say, ru.wikisource,
>> And then someone translates that work and posts his translation under a
>> free license in he.wikisource,
>> I am not to link the hebrew version to its source in ru.ws on wikidata,
>> But to create a seperate wikidata entry for it?
>> This makes zero sense to me, and we never did it this way on he.wikisource.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 2:25 PM, billinghurst 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Thought that the pasted discussion from WD is of interest and adds to our
>>> recent discussion on interwikis/interlanguage links.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Wikidata_discourages_interwiki_links
>>>
>>> Wikidata discourages interwiki links
>>>
>>> Looking at Zhuangzi (Q1074987) 
>>> *Zhuanhgzi*, I see that this data item is only for the work as it exists
>>> in Chinese. The work as translated into English is a separate data item,
>>> and the French Wikisource translation is another data item.
>>>
>>> Effectively, this means that Wikidata discourages interwiki links to and
>>> between Wikisource projects, because they will never be part of the same
>>> data item. Further, anyone seeking a translation of a work into another
>>> language must first come to Wikidata and surf the links even to find out if
>>> translations of a work in another language exist on Wikisource; it is not
>>> possible to do that from any Wikisource directly.
>>>
>>> I thought the whole point of moving the links to Wikidata was to promote
>>> connections between projects, not to eliminate them. But perhaps I am
>>> wrong. --EncycloPetey  (
>>> talk ) 02:19, 26
>>> July 2015 (UTC)
>>> @EncycloPetey : There
>>> are other ways to create interwiki by the help of Wikidata. See s:sv:Bibeln
>>> 1917  where I have made
>>> some tests with the Bible (Q1845) .
>>> The interwiki is created by the help of a Lua-module that follows edition(s)
>>> (P747)  and edition or
>>> translation of (P629) . The
>>> big advantage is that it makes possible to create intewiki to more than one
>>> page in every project. For example, that page have 13 links to
>>> enwikisource. -- Innocent bystander
>>>  (talk
>>> ) 05:49, 26
>>> July 2015 (UTC) @Innocent bystander
>>> :This is very
>>> interesting, what template (and Lua-module) do you use ? it should be done
>>> for all wikisources, that often have a lot of translated texts :) --
>>> Hsarrazin  (ta

Re: [Wikisource-l] more to edition(s) <-> edition or translation of

[Alex Brollo]

Splitting every book into two different items, *work* and *edition*, and
using nsWork into wikisource projects to point the* work*, the issue is
politely solved: any Work page into any wikisource could be interlinked by
wikidata, since all point to the same "abstract" work wikidata item.

On the contrary, *edition* pages can be interlinked by wikidata only when
they are related to the same edition wikidata item, as happens i.e. in
multilingual books, sharing the *same djvu file* into different projects.

Alex

2015-07-28 9:59 GMT+02:00 billinghurst :

> Nahum,
>
> I suppose the predominant part of my discussion was focusing on published
> translations, rather than WS-generated translations.
>
> 1) because many famous works  have  (famous) published translations, each
> with their own translator(s), date of publication, publisher, ... all
> worthy of noting and WD'ing.
>
> 2) you can only link to one work per wiki at WD, and as an example of an
> issue , I know of numbers of Chekov's works that enWS hosts where we have
> multiple published translations. So enWS needs a means for link generation
> for many to one (at ruWS), or for English language works, we may need a one
> to any.
>
> When it comes to WS-generated translations, I can see that we may or may
> not wish to call those translations their own edition.  If a translation
> passes a notability check of its own edition,  then separate, if not, maybe
> then it comes off the other original language work. (Maybe leave that
> decision with the xxWS to determine???).
>
> What I am hoping to see is a tool that provides the maximum flexibity and
> credibility for the WSes,  yet gives best visibility and  authority at WD.
>
> Billinghurst
>
> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 12:35 Nahum Wengrov  wrote:
>
>> Wait a minute.
>> If a work esists in, say, ru.wikisource,
>> And then someone translates that work and posts his translation under a
>> free license in he.wikisource,
>> I am not to link the hebrew version to its source in ru.ws on wikidata,
>> But to create a seperate wikidata entry for it?
>> This makes zero sense to me, and we never did it this way on
>> he.wikisource.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 2:25 PM, billinghurst > > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Thought that the pasted discussion from WD is of interest and adds to
>>> our recent discussion on interwikis/interlanguage links.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Wikidata_discourages_interwiki_links
>>>
>>> Wikidata discourages interwiki links
>>>
>>> Looking at Zhuangzi (Q1074987) 
>>> *Zhuanhgzi*, I see that this data item is only for the work as it
>>> exists in Chinese. The work as translated into English is a separate data
>>> item, and the French Wikisource translation is another data item.
>>>
>>> Effectively, this means that Wikidata discourages interwiki links to and
>>> between Wikisource projects, because they will never be part of the same
>>> data item. Further, anyone seeking a translation of a work into another
>>> language must first come to Wikidata and surf the links even to find out if
>>> translations of a work in another language exist on Wikisource; it is not
>>> possible to do that from any Wikisource directly.
>>>
>>> I thought the whole point of moving the links to Wikidata was to promote
>>> connections between projects, not to eliminate them. But perhaps I am
>>> wrong. --EncycloPetey 
>>> (talk ) 02:19, 26
>>> July 2015 (UTC)
>>> @EncycloPetey : There
>>> are other ways to create interwiki by the help of Wikidata. See s:sv:Bibeln
>>> 1917  where I have made
>>> some tests with the Bible (Q1845) .
>>> The interwiki is created by the help of a Lua-module that follows edition(s)
>>> (P747)  and edition or
>>> translation of (P629) .
>>> The big advantage is that it makes possible to create intewiki to more than
>>> one page in every project. For example, that page have 13 links to
>>> enwikisource. -- Innocent bystander
>>>  (talk
>>> ) 05:49, 26
>>> July 2015 (UTC) @Innocent bystander
>>> :This is very
>>> interesting, what template (and Lua-module) do you use ? it should be done
>>> for all wikisources, that often have a lot of translated texts :) --
>>> Hsarrazin  (talk
>>> ) 09:43, 26 July
>>> 2015 (UTC) @Hsarrazin :
>>> It's s:sv:Modul:Sandlåda/Innocent bystander
>>> 

Re: [Wikisource-l] more to edition(s) <-> edition or translation of

[billinghurst]

Nahum,

I suppose the predominant part of my discussion was focusing on published
translations, rather than WS-generated translations.

1) because many famous works  have  (famous) published translations, each
with their own translator(s), date of publication, publisher, ... all
worthy of noting and WD'ing.

2) you can only link to one work per wiki at WD, and as an example of an
issue , I know of numbers of Chekov's works that enWS hosts where we have
multiple published translations. So enWS needs a means for link generation
for many to one (at ruWS), or for English language works, we may need a one
to any.

When it comes to WS-generated translations, I can see that we may or may
not wish to call those translations their own edition.  If a translation
passes a notability check of its own edition,  then separate, if not, maybe
then it comes off the other original language work. (Maybe leave that
decision with the xxWS to determine???).

What I am hoping to see is a tool that provides the maximum flexibity and
credibility for the WSes,  yet gives best visibility and  authority at WD.

Billinghurst

On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 12:35 Nahum Wengrov  wrote:

> Wait a minute.
> If a work esists in, say, ru.wikisource,
> And then someone translates that work and posts his translation under a
> free license in he.wikisource,
> I am not to link the hebrew version to its source in ru.ws on wikidata,
> But to create a seperate wikidata entry for it?
> This makes zero sense to me, and we never did it this way on he.wikisource.
>
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 2:25 PM, billinghurst 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Thought that the pasted discussion from WD is of interest and adds to our
>> recent discussion on interwikis/interlanguage links.
>>
>>
>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Wikidata_discourages_interwiki_links
>>
>> Wikidata discourages interwiki links
>>
>> Looking at Zhuangzi (Q1074987) 
>> *Zhuanhgzi*, I see that this data item is only for the work as it exists
>> in Chinese. The work as translated into English is a separate data item,
>> and the French Wikisource translation is another data item.
>>
>> Effectively, this means that Wikidata discourages interwiki links to and
>> between Wikisource projects, because they will never be part of the same
>> data item. Further, anyone seeking a translation of a work into another
>> language must first come to Wikidata and surf the links even to find out if
>> translations of a work in another language exist on Wikisource; it is not
>> possible to do that from any Wikisource directly.
>>
>> I thought the whole point of moving the links to Wikidata was to promote
>> connections between projects, not to eliminate them. But perhaps I am
>> wrong. --EncycloPetey  (
>> talk ) 02:19, 26
>> July 2015 (UTC)
>> @EncycloPetey : There
>> are other ways to create interwiki by the help of Wikidata. See s:sv:Bibeln
>> 1917  where I have made
>> some tests with the Bible (Q1845) .
>> The interwiki is created by the help of a Lua-module that follows edition(s)
>> (P747)  and edition or
>> translation of (P629) . The
>> big advantage is that it makes possible to create intewiki to more than one
>> page in every project. For example, that page have 13 links to
>> enwikisource. -- Innocent bystander
>>  (talk
>> ) 05:49, 26
>> July 2015 (UTC) @Innocent bystander
>> :This is very
>> interesting, what template (and Lua-module) do you use ? it should be done
>> for all wikisources, that often have a lot of translated texts :) --
>> Hsarrazin  (talk
>> ) 09:43, 26 July 2015
>> (UTC) @Hsarrazin : It's 
>> s:sv:Modul:Sandlåda/Innocent
>> bystander
>> 
>> who today is included in s:sv:Mall:Titel
>> , a template that can be
>> found in almost every page on svsource. Observe that the module is not
>> secured against loops in the P747/P629-hierarcy. It also needs support by
>> the "interwiki-extra"-class in s:sv:MediaWiki:Common.js
>> , otherwise you
>> cannot have more than one interwiki in each page. -- Innocent bystander
>>  (talk
>> ) 10:11, 26
>>

Re: [Wikisource-l] more to edition(s) <-> edition or translation of

[Nicolas VIGNERON]

2015-07-28 4:35 GMT+02:00 Nahum Wengrov :

> Wait a minute.
> If a work esists in, say, ru.wikisource,
> And then someone translates that work and posts his translation under a
> free license in he.wikisource,
> I am not to link the hebrew version to its source in ru.ws on wikidata,
> But to create a seperate wikidata entry for it?
> This makes zero sense to me, and we never did it this way on he.wikisource.
>
>
It's more complex than that.

Yes, you should make two entries on Wikidata (because there different data
for this two works).

But meanwhile, you can make a link between the two works on the Wikisources.

Cdlt, ~nicolas
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Re: [Wikisource-l] more to edition(s) <-> edition or translation of

[Nahum Wengrov]

Wait a minute.
If a work esists in, say, ru.wikisource,
And then someone translates that work and posts his translation under a
free license in he.wikisource,
I am not to link the hebrew version to its source in ru.ws on wikidata,
But to create a seperate wikidata entry for it?
This makes zero sense to me, and we never did it this way on he.wikisource.

On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 2:25 PM, billinghurst 
wrote:

>
> Thought that the pasted discussion from WD is of interest and adds to our
> recent discussion on interwikis/interlanguage links.
>
>
> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Wikidata_discourages_interwiki_links
>
> Wikidata discourages interwiki links
>
> Looking at Zhuangzi (Q1074987) 
> *Zhuanhgzi*, I see that this data item is only for the work as it exists
> in Chinese. The work as translated into English is a separate data item,
> and the French Wikisource translation is another data item.
>
> Effectively, this means that Wikidata discourages interwiki links to and
> between Wikisource projects, because they will never be part of the same
> data item. Further, anyone seeking a translation of a work into another
> language must first come to Wikidata and surf the links even to find out if
> translations of a work in another language exist on Wikisource; it is not
> possible to do that from any Wikisource directly.
>
> I thought the whole point of moving the links to Wikidata was to promote
> connections between projects, not to eliminate them. But perhaps I am
> wrong. --EncycloPetey  (
> talk ) 02:19, 26
> July 2015 (UTC)
> @EncycloPetey : There
> are other ways to create interwiki by the help of Wikidata. See s:sv:Bibeln
> 1917  where I have made
> some tests with the Bible (Q1845) .
> The interwiki is created by the help of a Lua-module that follows edition(s)
> (P747)  and edition or
> translation of (P629) . The
> big advantage is that it makes possible to create intewiki to more than one
> page in every project. For example, that page have 13 links to
> enwikisource. -- Innocent bystander
>  (talk
> ) 05:49, 26
> July 2015 (UTC) @Innocent bystander
> :This is very
> interesting, what template (and Lua-module) do you use ? it should be done
> for all wikisources, that often have a lot of translated texts :) --
> Hsarrazin  (talk
> ) 09:43, 26 July 2015
> (UTC) @Hsarrazin : It's 
> s:sv:Modul:Sandlåda/Innocent
> bystander
> 
> who today is included in s:sv:Mall:Titel
> , a template that can be
> found in almost every page on svsource. Observe that the module is not
> secured against loops in the P747/P629-hierarcy. It also needs support by
> the "interwiki-extra"-class in s:sv:MediaWiki:Common.js
> , otherwise you
> cannot have more than one interwiki in each page. -- Innocent bystander
>  (talk
> ) 10:11, 26
> July 2015 (UTC)BTW, another thing the code does: It makes it possible to
> have interwiki to the Text-namespaces in als/bar/frr/pflwikis. -- Innocent
> bystander  (talk
> ) 10:18, 26
> July 2015 (UTC)
>
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>
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