Re: [Wikitech-l] Interwiki conflicts

[Andre Engels]

There's one problem with these interwiki links that has not yet been
mentioned in this thread: Not rarely when I have finally sorted out
two subjects, and kept only those interwiki that are to the same
subject, someone comes around and tells me that I should not be
removing correct interwiki links.


-- 
André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Interwiki conflicts

[Andre Engels]

On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 6:20 AM, Lars Aronsson  wrote:

> From a biography of the same president in another language, I can
> copy a list of interwiki links.  But instead I should just copy a
> single, global interwiki pointer.  As far as I understand, this is
> how the interlanguage extension should work.
>
> What stops us from trying that out?  Could it be introduced in
> small steps, or is it a big scary change?

I think it would be a big change. At the moment we have a single
database per wiki, and no actual connection between the various
databases. As far as I know the only exception to that is the images
from Commons, but your idea goes further than that, because I cannot
change a picture on Commons by editing a wiki page elsewhere. This
would both be a large conceptual change and a technical issue (suppose
the 'interwiki database' is down for writing, what do we do when
someone tries to edit a page?)

Apart from that there is the issue of naming of pages on this central
depository. It seems you'd have to have an interwiki consensus about
that... And then there's initial population - what do we do with the
currently existing problems? I guess that's a point that could be done
in small steps though (allow the 'old' and the 'new' system to exist
in parallel for some time). What do you do with new problems? That is,
what if the same subject is linked from 2 pages in one language? And
what if A is of the opinion that a group of pages should all be the
same 'interwiki group' and B that they should be two? Will we be
getting cross-wiki edit wars?

-- 
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Interwiki conflicts

[Andre Engels]

On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Lars Aronsson  wrote:

> The Category:Politicians in many languages has an interwiki link
> to the Armenian (hy:) category for political scientists.  I fixed
> the English Wikipedia (manually) and the North European languages
> (by bot), but some 50 languages remain to be edited.
>
> If interwiki.py supported SUL and if I had a truly global bot
> flag, I could do it. But I'm reluctant to edit 50 languages
> manually, especially since there are hundreds of such conflicts.

You can do it by bot as things are. I myself use Robbot on all
languages; the only thing that could be improved regarding SUL is that
I have to type in its password once for each language rather than one
time for all, and as regards bot flags - it seems it has one on every
language where it needs it.

> One problem here is that interwiki.py only adds links.  Both
> correct ones and errors are quickly propagated.  But corrections
> are not propagated, because the conflicts make it give up.  An
> easy way to remove that hy: interwiki link would be a great help.

Well, as said, I use Robbot on all languages, the code I use for that is:

from family import Family
for lang in Family().alphabetic:
usernames['wikipedia'][lang] = 'Robbot'

This gives me 2 warnings every time I start the bot, but I just ignore
them. With such a setting, whenever I get to a conflict of which I
know the resolution, I start a separate interwiki.py with the
necessary -ignore or -neverlink and -force, and the bot will remove at
least that problem everywhere it exists.


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Interwiki conflicts

[Lars Aronsson]

Andre Engels wrote:

> Examples of problems are:
> * Closely connected subjects (for example, a biological order 
>   and the only family in it, a municipality and its main town by 
>   the same name, a fruit tree and its fruit, a computer game and 

Such problems certainly exist. But they are not our worst problem 
at the moment.  Today I sorted out "Calvin Klein" (the company) 
and "Calvin Klein (fashion designer)" (the person).  They now form 
two separate interwiki clusters, without conflicts.  But sorting 
this out was more hard work than it needs to be.  With some 
improved tools, we can make this work a little easier.

The Category:Politicians in many languages has an interwiki link 
to the Armenian (hy:) category for political scientists.  I fixed 
the English Wikipedia (manually) and the North European languages 
(by bot), but some 50 languages remain to be edited.

If interwiki.py supported SUL and if I had a truly global bot 
flag, I could do it. But I'm reluctant to edit 50 languages 
manually, especially since there are hundreds of such conflicts.  

One problem here is that interwiki.py only adds links.  Both 
correct ones and errors are quickly propagated.  But corrections 
are not propagated, because the conflicts make it give up.  An 
easy way to remove that hy: interwiki link would be a great help.


-- 
  Lars Aronsson (l...@aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Interwiki conflicts

[Lars Aronsson]

Marco Schuster wrote:

> Commons has enough to do with keeping metafiles up to date, 
> they'd be crashed by also having to maintain IW links. I'd 
> propose a new wiki, to which editors have to apply to get write 
> access so that vandalism in this critical part is prevented.

I think the system needs to work like the categories.  Very few 
people need to edit the category page, so we don't really have to 
worry about who can access that central storage.  If I write an 
article about a president, I copy a category link from another 
president biography.  I don't have to update the category page and 
I don't have to update other articles in the same category.

>From a biography of the same president in another language, I can 
copy a list of interwiki links.  But instead I should just copy a 
single, global interwiki pointer.  As far as I understand, this is 
how the interlanguage extension should work.

What stops us from trying that out?  Could it be introduced in 
small steps, or is it a big scary change?


-- 
  Lars Aronsson (l...@aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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Re: [Wikitech-l] nstab-main caching

[Tim Starling]

Remember the dot wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> The discussion about nstab-main and the main page has flared up again:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:Common.js#Main_Page_tab
> 
> It was suggested in bug 14267 that the contents of nstab-main could be
> cached with the page title, so that we could include a ParserFunctions
> workaround in it without having the parser function execute on every page
> load. What are your opinions on this?
> 
> See https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14267#c5

I think a parser function that sets tab text directly would be better,
e.g. {{#settab:nstab|Main Page}}{{#settab:talk|Main Page discussion}}

-- Tim Starling


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[Wikitech-l] add media wizard early prototype

[Michael Dale]

As part of the sequencer I have been working on an add media wizard to 
enable the searching and inserting of media to a given sequence. This 
add media wizard could also serve as an entry point to adding media to 
pages.

== demo ==

First disclaimer: this is still pretty early on in development more of 
an early semi-working prototype than a beta or anything usable. (For 
example have not done much cross browser testing yet (use firefox)) 
But if you want to check it out go ahead and add:
importScriptURI('http://mvbox2.cse.ucsc.edu/w/extensions/MetavidWiki/skins/external_media_wizard.js');
to your User:{username}/monobook.js page

or you can load a slightly older version at: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/extensions/MetavidWiki/skins/external_media_wizard.js 


Once installed to your user page go to edit some page like "sandbox" 
highlight a word or place the cursor where you want to insert media. 
Click the add media wizard at the top right of the edit box. You should 
get a few images from commons can click on an image to insert, add 
in-line description, crop if you like and then preview the insert into 
the page. Once happy "do the insert" it will paste in the wiki code to 
insert that image into the page you can modify and then re-preview the 
page if you like.

You can also do a political search like "Iraq" or "Obama" and pull up 
metavid clips to see how the setting in-and-out points of video has been 
prototyped so far. 

(note: metavid fallback to flash video while the html5 video tag for 
firefox is still maturing... if you are using a firerfox nightly 
http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/latest-trunk/ you 
may have to click the options button in the lower right to select ogg 
video stream)

Once done playing with the prototype, I recommend removing the script 
from your user page. I will update the list once its more _ready_ for 
wider usage.

It should work on remote wikis with the commons import system. Ie you 
can try including this script on your local mediaWiki installation .. if 
you have $wgAllowCopyUploads enabled your wiki should be able to 
download and import commons images directly into the wiki.

== Issues ==
So this brings up a whole host of issues.. here are some that I thought 
of... I thought I would ping this to get some more ;)

=== security ===

* Right now the wizard pulls directly from remote repositories, (ie 
commons and metavid.org serves up the search results in json with a 
callback).. This means the compromise of any server that we support as a 
remote repository will result in xss issue. This is true for any remote 
script that users include but would be a bigger problem if the add media 
wizard moves into more common usage.

** We should probably proxy the results so we can just process them as 
RSS and run normal script filters on the data.  -- this is slower and 
adds more strain to our servers but provides more security.

** or we limit the "included by default" repositories and put in a kill 
switch of sorts that we can run to stop injecting from any compromised 
remote repository? making it difficult to cause big xss issues "by 
default". We have users jump though some hoops to enable less common 
remote repositories similar to how the user scripts work?

=== performance / maintainable/modular code / internationalization  ===

* JS Library loading... we want to start moving towards more modular 
scripts ie we don't need to include all the remote repository objects on 
first load (ie we have a search object for flicker we want to 
dynamically add in that remote repository search object as necessary 
when the user click on the flicker repository tab. )

For portability outside of mediaWiki we have to have each js object/file 
should define any user language messages that it includes, that way our 
script server system can send out the right language messages with the 
JS library that uses them.

Some discussion about a javascript loading system took place on this 
list not long ago.. I said I would revisit the issue so I will try and 
do that soon :)
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2008-December/040625.html


=== Licenses / archive restrictions ==

So far I have just included the metavid "remote" repository (importing 
is not working yet until we enable Uploading by URL and do some fixes 
for cross site issues (ie your inserting content on the wikipedia domain 
but want the resource to be uploaded to commons).
 
In terms of external archive license issues I am thinking we essentially 
require that the external archive provide license info and we represent 
that with a little icon below each image and then pull the appropriate 
template into the import resource description.
The other obvious external archives restriction is for video that they 
provide the video in ogg theora format. Preferably they run oggz_chop so 
that a segment of the video can be dynamically selected. We have already 
been working with archive.org on this fron

[Wikitech-l] nstab-main caching

[Remember the dot]

Hello,

The discussion about nstab-main and the main page has flared up again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:Common.js#Main_Page_tab

It was suggested in bug 14267 that the contents of nstab-main could be
cached with the page title, so that we could include a ParserFunctions
workaround in it without having the parser function execute on every page
load. What are your opinions on this?

See https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14267#c5

-- 
Remember the dot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Remember_the_dot
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Interwiki conflicts

[Daniel Kinzler]

David Gerard schrieb:
> But basically: treating interwiki links as a 1-1 relationship even
> from one wiki to another is horribly unreliable, and assuming you can
> go from wiki A to wiki B to wiki C with interwiki links is just not
> doable reliably with robots.

If you only look at language-links that got *both* ways, you get a decent 1-to-1
mapping. I used this as part of my thesis, and wrote a short paper about it:
.

I can also recommend the studies of Rainer Hammwöhner about Wikipedia,
especially "Interlingual Aspects if Wikipedia’s Quality"
,
which studies the quality of language links and the categtory system, among
other things.

-- daniel

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Interwiki conflicts

[David Gerard]

2009/1/6 Lars Aronsson :

> Has anybody mapped exactly how many such interwiki conflicts we
> have?  Or how many interwiki sets do we have without conflicts?
> Could/should someone make a list of current conflicts and try to
> rank them by importance, so we can get started in fixing them?


Someone actually did this, it was discussed a few months ago on
wikien-l. (I'm writing this in my lunch hour, so haven't time to track
down the thread in the archive right now, sorry.)

But basically: treating interwiki links as a 1-1 relationship even
from one wiki to another is horribly unreliable, and assuming you can
go from wiki A to wiki B to wiki C with interwiki links is just not
doable reliably with robots.

It's not quite as horrible as trying to make ontological sense of the
category tree (where the only relationship that can be presumed is
"has something to do with" - one of the reasons that making cats work
like tags with a good complex Boolean query frontend would be so
useful), but it's in the same realms of hair-tearing horror for the
same reasons, i.e. people are a problem.


- d.

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Interwiki conflicts

[Eugene Zelenko]

Hi!

See http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:VolkovBot/conflicts for list of
conflicts. VolkovBot is pretty active, so list should be more or less
comprehensive.

Eugene.

On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 1:52 AM, Lars Aronsson  wrote:
>
> I just recently started to play with interwiki.py (Pywikipedia bot
> framework) for propagating interwiki links.  My interest comes
> from organizing the category tree, so I'm focusing on interwiki
> links between categories.  Interwiki bots normally run in
> autonomous mode, but this means they give up on complicated cases.
>
> If I run this script under manual supervision, without the
> "-autonomous" option, it stops and asks me how to resolve each
> conflict. This happens ever so often.  I have now (manually)
> sorted out the interwiki links between all languages of
> Category:Knowledge, which was intertwined with Category:Science,
> and Category:Austrian writers which was mixed up with
> Category:Austrian literature.  Such mistakes easily happen, of
> course.  Who can spot errors in all these languages?
>
> Many languages had interwiki links from their category for
> Austrian writers to the Japanese category for Austrian literature.
> I'm not sure exactly when or where this error originated.  But on
> June 19, 2007, the English and Spanish Wikipedia's interwiki link
> to Japanese changed from Austrian novelists to Austrian
> literature, i.e. from one error to another. Ten days later, this
> link was copied to the Dutch Wikipedia. The error was corrected on
> en.wikipedia on October 1, 2007, but remained on other languages.
> Yes, that's 15 months ago.
>
> The circular interwiki link structure from en:Category:Austrian
> writers to es:Categoría:Escritores de Austria to ja:... and back
> to en:Category:Austrian literature is such a conflict that makes
> interwiki.py give up when it runs in autonomous mode.
>
> Thus, corrections (as on October 1) do not propagate.  Instead a
> report about the conflict is given in a logfile, but apparently
> nobody had fixed this problem in the last 15 monhts.  This
> conflict also blocked new interwiki links from propagating.
>
> After I cleared up the mess, 21 new interwiki links were added to
> the category on the Russian Wikipedia (one where I have a bot
> flag).  That means 21 languages of Wikipedia had created
> categories (or announced them to the interwiki system) for
> Austrian writers in the last 15 months, and they all added their
> interwiki link to the English Wikipedia.  But these additions did
> not propagate because of the conflict.
>
> So, my question:
>
> Has anybody mapped exactly how many such interwiki conflicts we
> have?  Or how many interwiki sets do we have without conflicts?
> Could/should someone make a list of current conflicts and try to
> rank them by importance, so we can get started in fixing them?
>
> In the longer term, we need to redesign the interwiki links into a
> centralized system, that can be maintained.  I think the way to do
> this is to use Wikimedia Commons.  Instead of copying all the
> interwiki links to every language of Wikipedia, it should be
> enough to add {{commons|Category:Writers from Austria}}, and the
> rest should happen automatically.
>
>
>
> --
>  Lars Aronsson (l...@aronsson.se)
>  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Interwiki conflicts

[Daniel Kinzler]

Once again, I'd like to point the interested reader to my own take on the issue
of interlanguage links:
.

I still believe that that would be better than a central place for managing
interwikis. In a nutshell: edit locally, like now, but compare globally, and
show also *incoming* interwiki links.

-- daniel

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Interwiki conflicts

[Andre Engels]

I might have sounded too negative by including all those problems. I
think it would be good to do a search for such conflicts, and I know
that several of them CAN be easily corrected. But one should not close
the eyes to the fact that there are clear problems.


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Interwiki conflicts

[Andre Engels]

On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Lars Aronsson  wrote:

> So, my question:
>
> Has anybody mapped exactly how many such interwiki conflicts we
> have?  Or how many interwiki sets do we have without conflicts?
> Could/should someone make a list of current conflicts and try to
> rank them by importance, so we can get started in fixing them?

As you already noted, pywikipediabot when run autonomously will add a
remark on each such conflict, so that would be an easy way to harvest
a large number of them. There are many of them - although there are
many people working on interwiki, they usually either just add them,
or run autonomous bots, correcting incorrect links takes place much
less.

Resolving them is in some cases easy, but in many cases not. Different
Wikipedias not rarely have different ways of 'subdividing' the
'universe' of possible meanings. This means that the dual assumptions
that 'interwiki is an equivalence relation' and 'any page can
interwiki to only one page in a single language' that the framework is
based on, are often not met, or only in artificial ways.

Examples of problems are:
* Closely connected subjects (for example, a biological order and the
only family in it, a municipality and its main town by the same name,
a fruit tree and its fruit, a computer game and the series of which it
is the first game, two scientific terms which are each other's
opposite) have two pages on some Wikipedias, one page on other, and
that one page is sometimes more one subject, sometimes more the other,
and sometimes really about both
* Words that mean a general term in one language being used for a more
specific one in another language, for example [[en:Autobahn]] being
about highways in Germany, [[de:Autobahn]] about highways in general,
or the name of a Japanese traditional dagger being used to mean that
specific type of dagger in western language, but more generally
'dagger' in Japanese, or countries using their own mythical small
creature as the best translation of 'dwarf', but being about dwarves
in a specific mythology elsewhere
* Slight shifts of meaning from one language to the other causing a
sequence of 'closest connections' leading to another word in the same
language

-- 
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Interwiki conflicts

[Amir E. Aharoni]

2009/1/6 Marco Schuster :
> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Lars Aronsson  wrote:
>> In the longer term, we need to redesign the interwiki links into a
>> centralized system, that can be maintained.  I think the way to do
>> this is to use Wikimedia Commons.  Instead of copying all the
>> interwiki links to every language of Wikipedia, it should be
>> enough to add {{commons|Category:Writers from Austria}}, and the
>> rest should happen automatically.
>
> Commons has enough to do with keeping metafiles up to date, they'd be
> crashed by also having to maintain IW links. I'd propose a new wiki,
> to which editors have to apply to get write access so that vandalism
> in this critical part is prevented.

The technology already exists:

* http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_newer_look_at_the_interlanguage_link

But it is not enabled yet:

* https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15607

-- 
Amir Elisha Aharoni

heb: http://haharoni.wordpress.com | eng: http://aharoni.wordpress.com
cat: http://aprenent.wordpress.com | rus: http://amire80.livejournal.com

"We're living in pieces,
 I want to live in peace." - T. Moore

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Interwiki conflicts

[Marco Schuster]

On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Lars Aronsson  wrote:
> In the longer term, we need to redesign the interwiki links into a
> centralized system, that can be maintained.  I think the way to do
> this is to use Wikimedia Commons.  Instead of copying all the
> interwiki links to every language of Wikipedia, it should be
> enough to add {{commons|Category:Writers from Austria}}, and the
> rest should happen automatically.

Commons has enough to do with keeping metafiles up to date, they'd be
crashed by also having to maintain IW links. I'd propose a new wiki,
to which editors have to apply to get write access so that vandalism
in this critical part is prevented.
For the meanwhile, theoretically one could launch a huge query on
toolserver which scans for conflicts. I'm not sure if this would be
possible regarding performance, though.

Marco

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Interwiki conflicts

[Amir E. Aharoni]

2009/1/6 Lars Aronsson :
> (Lars' interesting insights about Interwiki conflicts...)
> ...

Have you seen:

* http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_newer_look_at_the_interlanguage_link
* http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Interwiki_synchronization

The last one is my own creation, which has surprisingly caught on;
Unfortunately i haven't had much time to maintain it lately, and i'd
be very glad if someone could help with that.

-- 
Amir Elisha Aharoni

heb: http://haharoni.wordpress.com | eng: http://aharoni.wordpress.com
cat: http://aprenent.wordpress.com | rus: http://amire80.livejournal.com

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[Wikitech-l] Interwiki conflicts

[Lars Aronsson]

I just recently started to play with interwiki.py (Pywikipedia bot 
framework) for propagating interwiki links.  My interest comes 
from organizing the category tree, so I'm focusing on interwiki 
links between categories.  Interwiki bots normally run in 
autonomous mode, but this means they give up on complicated cases.

If I run this script under manual supervision, without the 
"-autonomous" option, it stops and asks me how to resolve each 
conflict. This happens ever so often.  I have now (manually) 
sorted out the interwiki links between all languages of 
Category:Knowledge, which was intertwined with Category:Science, 
and Category:Austrian writers which was mixed up with 
Category:Austrian literature.  Such mistakes easily happen, of 
course.  Who can spot errors in all these languages?

Many languages had interwiki links from their category for 
Austrian writers to the Japanese category for Austrian literature.  
I'm not sure exactly when or where this error originated.  But on 
June 19, 2007, the English and Spanish Wikipedia's interwiki link 
to Japanese changed from Austrian novelists to Austrian 
literature, i.e. from one error to another. Ten days later, this 
link was copied to the Dutch Wikipedia. The error was corrected on 
en.wikipedia on October 1, 2007, but remained on other languages.
Yes, that's 15 months ago.

The circular interwiki link structure from en:Category:Austrian 
writers to es:Categoría:Escritores de Austria to ja:... and back 
to en:Category:Austrian literature is such a conflict that makes 
interwiki.py give up when it runs in autonomous mode.

Thus, corrections (as on October 1) do not propagate.  Instead a 
report about the conflict is given in a logfile, but apparently 
nobody had fixed this problem in the last 15 monhts.  This 
conflict also blocked new interwiki links from propagating.  

After I cleared up the mess, 21 new interwiki links were added to 
the category on the Russian Wikipedia (one where I have a bot 
flag).  That means 21 languages of Wikipedia had created 
categories (or announced them to the interwiki system) for 
Austrian writers in the last 15 months, and they all added their 
interwiki link to the English Wikipedia.  But these additions did 
not propagate because of the conflict.

So, my question:

Has anybody mapped exactly how many such interwiki conflicts we 
have?  Or how many interwiki sets do we have without conflicts? 
Could/should someone make a list of current conflicts and try to 
rank them by importance, so we can get started in fixing them?

In the longer term, we need to redesign the interwiki links into a 
centralized system, that can be maintained.  I think the way to do 
this is to use Wikimedia Commons.  Instead of copying all the 
interwiki links to every language of Wikipedia, it should be 
enough to add {{commons|Category:Writers from Austria}}, and the 
rest should happen automatically.



-- 
  Lars Aronsson (l...@aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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