Re: [Wikitech-l] On your python vs php talk
On 28 July 2013 09:52, Виталий Филиппов vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote: Also for example I don't like python's strict typization ideas (for example it throws exception if you concatenate long and str using +). PHP is simple and has no such problems. Except, you know, that is not entirely true. PHP's weak dynamic types causes numerous problems. You cannot compare strings in order to sort them, you need to convert individual characters to their ASCII/Unicode value and compare it that way (and that in itself is not always perfect, because their value may not be in the same order as humans consider an appropriate sorting[0]). If I do `10 == 10' in PHP, PHP will yield true. I can force it to say false (because they are not the same type) by using '===' (except - of course - PHP developers fails to understand what the === operator is for[1]). But if I do `10 11' in PHP, it will yield true, because does what == does (converts the types), but there is no way to tell PHP, I don't want that. Particularly because int nor str doesn't exist in the language, you cannot cast things in PHP to control your types. Furthermore, PHP has an annoying habit of doing stuff without warning you. I recommend you reading this article: http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ This is one of the main reasons I stopped contributing to MediaWiki; I simply got tired of writing in PHP. I don't like a language where I constantly have to circumvent it, because its developers are stupider than I am. [0] Of course, no other languages solves this issue as well, so that's another thing. [1] === compares values and type… except with objects, where === is only true if both operands are actually the same object! For objects, == compares both value (of every attribute) and type, which is what === does for every other type. Wat. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] On your python vs php talk
On 28 July 2013 17:48, Robert Cummings rob...@interjinn.com wrote: On 13-07-28 06:33 AM, Svip wrote: Particularly because int nor str doesn't exist in the language, you Yes they do. No, they don't. They only exist in the context you describe below: cannot cast things in PHP to control your types. One certainly can: $int = (int)$string; Can I do var_dump(int);? Well, it turns out the only thing you can do is casting, but even casting in PHP is rather pointless. I can only see one failing... consistent and much of that is for historical reasons and the mirroring of C based library functions. All turing complete languages are predictable by definition. PHP is certainly concise compared to many languages. Reliability is dependent on the skill level of the developer. Debuggable is certainly possible, although perhaps more difficult than some languages. Screen prints, log prints, and xdebug generally make the process simple enough. I have been doing a lot of debugging PHP in my time, and I know how it works. That doesn't change the fact that it is rather annoying and a tedious process compared to other languages. I also like that other languages *tell* you stuff, rather than having to know all these small quirks in a language; this create language overhead, meaning a programmer needs to contain a lot of information readily available when programming. And for what? So I can save 10 minutes when setting up, but enduring 6 months of torture? Yeah, I think I'll pass. PHP wasn't chosen for MediaWiki because it was the language the development team (at least the current) liked the best; but because the first developer on MediaWiki chose it. And that's that. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] On your python vs php talk
On 28 July 2013 16:53, vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote: It's not bad design. It's bad only theoretically and just different from strongly-typed languages. I like its inconsistent function names - for a lot of functions they're similar to C and in most cases they're very easy to remember, as opposed to some other languages, including python (!!). For a lot of C functions from vastly different libraries; there is nothing in the PHP library functions that make them easy to remember, I often had to look them up. And my main idea is that only a statically typed should try to be strict. And python very oddly tries to be strict in some places while being dynamically typed. Look, it doesn't concatenate string and long - even Java does that! You are confusing two kinds of type languages; Java is strongly strict, while Python is strongly dynamic. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] On your python vs php talk
On 28 July 2013 18:36, Robert Cummings rob...@interjinn.com wrote: I debunked your original comments and you come back with more false claims and subjective argumentation. You debunked my comment that casting is impossible; I concede that I was wrong. But it is the only context where you are allowed to use 'int'. 'int' isn't a keyword in PHP, '(int)' is. And why? There is intval() after all. It's only to match C syntax. It's the same with new, protected, public, private, etc. keywords for classes, despite these not really being useful in a interpreted language. The idea is to catch these issues on compile time, which PHP doesn't have.[0] Your is_int() solution is correct, but it isn't exactly pretty. It's another example of 'working against the language'. As for why MediaWiki uses PHP... I guess that's what you get when you invent something-- you get to choose the design and tools. I don't blame MediaWiki for using PHP. It makes pretty rational sense at the time it was created. And even if it was created today, it might have been PHP as well. I have often praised MediaWiki for its excellent PHP (also notice so does the article I linked to). [0] I know there are some systems that can compile PHP, but the primary objective of PHP is not to be compiled. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] On your python vs php talk
On 28 July 2013 18:43, Petr Bena benap...@gmail.com wrote: And as I already stated once, I didn't start this discussion to start a war (not that I wouldn't like it) I just wanted to find out what's so cool on python and why in the world would people prefer it over php. To give you an answer that isn't just PHP bashing (by the way, I am no big fan of Python myself); I think it has a lot to do with more corporations having skin in the game. Large companies like Google have invested in Python, but few have invested in PHP. Well, at least not prominent ones like Google. This gives Python a sense of 'serious language' compared to PHP's 'hobby language' sentiment. And some programmers looks down on PHP's hobby language status. You can argue whether that is fair or not. But Python is a different beast all together; its initial purpose - as I recall - was fulfil those programs that were too large for bash scripts, but too simple for C-programs. It was not created for the web, it was later applied to it; and this you can tell in the language as well as its standard library. Python feels like a script language, it has not very good threading and concurrency mechanism, which have been added to the language later. Google even tried to improve Python, but eventually abandoned that plan and came up with Go instead. There doesn't exist popular frameworks like Django (which I also loath) for PHP, because PHP's standard library (well bindings) fulfils much of task itself. I don't mind Python's indentation syntax, but I don't like its underscored standard functions (like __init__) and whatnot; they look incredibly ugly. I also don't like that you have to create a __init__.py file in a directory to make it a package; that seems silly to me (and ugly). As for why Python is cool? Because it tries some new things (look at the syntax) and it is a language more designed to the nature of being interpreted than compiled (which is a syntax PHP mimics). I remember personally being excited about Python when I first really met it back in 2007. But now that excitement has vanished. My issue with Python isn't so much setting it up (which is a pain itself, don't get me wrong), but it's the fact that it's standard library are rather missing on functionality for the web (there are plenty of frameworks, and whatnot, but not in its standard library), so I have to ask myself; what's the purpose of writing in Python rather than PHP? I'd rather write in neither. But hating PHP has traction, and you don't want to be the uncool guy who writes in PHP, so to some people, Python is the only option. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] On your python vs php talk
On 28 July 2013 18:37, Svip svi...@gmail.com wrote: Java is strongly strict, while Python is strongly dynamic. Woops, I think Java might be weakly strict and not strongly strict (that's like Standard ML or Erlang). ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] python vs php
May I recommend taking a look at Go? I'd love to implement a Wiki in Go, if I had the time or motivation (and not a million other things I want to do). Go captures my excitement. Oh but, a word of warning; if you are using to one language, then Go will be rather different. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] MediaWiki to Latex Converter
On 16 June 2012 10:51, Dirk Hünniger hunni...@cip.physik.uni-bonn.de wrote: This problem is actually sovled there is an easy way to export mediawiki articles to LaTeX and PDF. see http://de.wikibooks.org/wiki/Benutzer:Dirk_Huenniger/wb2pdf Interesting, but why is it so large? Is the source code available? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] IE7 tax
On 14 June 2012 20:49, Tyler programmer...@comcast.net wrote: Yes, Microsoft was great when they made IE 6, but when IE 7 came out, Microsoft killed the Internet star. I mean, HTML 5? What? I read a book that said after HTML 4.01, it would be XHTML 1.0, XHTML 1.1 ... not HTML 5! I recommend you learn a thing or two about HTML's history, and how XHTML 1.0 and 1.1 (as well as 2.0) was a mistake. XHTML was an attempt to make sure to use strict XML for the HTML, which would create easier parsing. Unfortunately, no one actually did what was required; *serve* as XML, which meant the browsers would still quirk parse it. Now, of course, if you serve as XML, the browsers will parse it as XML and then break if there is a syntax error. But XML also does not support most HTML entities, so there is a problem right there. But the parsing is likely to be faster. HTML5 was create in protest against the slow progress to a new HTML standard, and as XHTML wasn't going anywhere fast, people gave it the shrug it so richly deserved. For that reason, XHTML5 exists, which is just like HTML5, but is required to be parsed as XML. Also, your email seems to indicate that Microsoft created HTML5, they were perhaps the _last_ ones to get onboard the 'HTML5 train'. Much of HTML5 was supposed to go past the usual long-winded and slow process of standards that is W3C. And IE6 sucked when it was released. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Development process doesn't work (yes this is another complaint from another community member)
On 4 April 2012 10:19, Petr Bena benap...@gmail.com wrote: I am very disappointed by current development process we have on wikimedia project. The wikimedia project itself is classified as open source at some point, but the current development process sort of beats the purpose of that. I started working on two extensions in October, more than 6 months ago. Both were approved by community on Village Pump and it was agreed to deploy them to english wikipedia. One of the extension had hundreds of lines and is considered as bigger, the other one consist of +- 15 lines of code, which was developed together with Ian Baker who is employee of the wikimedia foundation. I was told that in order to deploy it, I need to pass code review. I requested code review many times on many places and although it was more than 6 months ago, no one seemed to be able to review these 15 lines of code so far, despite the community agreed with the idea of extension. I understand it, that only employees of the foundation are actually permitted to write the code which is going to be deployed to wmf sites. If that is true, it should be noted somewhere, so that volunteers (the people who aren't employees / paid for that) can know that spending time on creating such an extensions, will likely result in it never going to be implemented, thus it's not anything they are suggested to do. While this is secure for the foundation, so that it can actually have perfect control over the code which is wikimedia running on, it is sort of against the idea of open software. So, it should be either described how this works, because if what I just said is true (I hope it's not) it should be definitely somewhere noted, to avoid getting more volunteers spending time on pointless work, or the development process should be completely changed so that it allows this open source project, to be actually open. My NaturalLanguageList extension[1] has been queued for code review since March 2010.[2] And I still believe WMF wikis like Wiktionary and Commons would greatly benefit from such an extension. At least until the Lua-wikicode thing gets worked out. [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:NaturalLanguageList [2] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22928 ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Time to redirect to https by default?
On 1 April 2012 13:01, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 1 April 2012 11:55, Petr Bena benap...@gmail.com wrote: I see no point in doing that. Https doesn't support caching well and is generally slower. There is no use for readers for that. The use is that the requests themselves are encrypted, so that the only thing logged is that they went to Wikimedia. You did read the linked articles, right? Obviously, I cannot confirm whether Mr Bena read the linked articles or not, but he did provide an answer regarding the technical restrictions. Wikimedia already spends an incredible amount of time caching its content, because *so many* users use Wikipedia and its sister projects daily. And since most of the content is fairly static, caching makes a lot of sense. However, HTTPS does not support caching (at least not well), which means each page would suddenly have to be generated for *each* page. It's true that MediaWiki itself supports caching, but its own caching is no where near as fast as a caching server like Varnish (although I believe a less powerful caching server is used on Wikimedia's servers). The trade off is that the service would be slower for everyone or we would need more servers. And I am not sure Wikimedia has that kind of money. Those are the *technical* limitations to defaulting to HTTPS. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Time to redirect to https by default?
On 1 April 2012 12:06, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17576745 Also, this article was written on 1 April and is far beyond any monitoring scheme ever suggested in the Western World. And I am sure we would have heard about it being mentioned up until this point, if it was real. So I would take that article with a grain of salt. Particularly the statement about 'real time'. That's not even feasible. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Time to redirect to https by default?
On 1 April 2012 13:59, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 1 April 2012 12:23, Svip svi...@gmail.com wrote: On 1 April 2012 12:06, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17576745 Also, this article was written on 1 April and is far beyond any monitoring scheme ever suggested in the Western World. And I am sure we would have heard about it being mentioned up until this point, if it was real. It would be nice, but if it's a prank then (a) lots of other newspapers are in on it (b) ORG flagged the programme described several weeks in advance: http://wiki.openrightsgroup.org/wiki/Communications_Capabilities_Development_Programme http://www.openrightsgroup.org/issues/ccdp So no, it's in no way a joke. This is absolutely real. Still *kind of* a joke. So I would take that article with a grain of salt. Particularly the statement about 'real time'. That's not even feasible. That a desired monitoring regime would require a violation of physics has *never* stopped a legislative push for such. But it has always stopped it from being implemented or executed in practice. While the development is terrifying, it is also important to note the lack of actual consequences it will have. Other than being a huge embarrassment. But I was always under the influence that the UK didn't really care about free speech and privacy. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] correct way to import SQL dumps into MySQL database in terms of character encoding
On 1 April 2012 16:04, Piotr Jagielski piotr.jagiel...@op.pl wrote: mysql --user root --password=root wiki C:\Path\plwiki-20111227-categorylinks.sql --default-character-set=utf8 It's -p, not --password=root and it will prompt you for the password. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] reject edits that cause two links for the same language
On 19 March 2012 03:47, jida...@jidanni.org wrote: Well OK, but in no case could Languages * 中文 * 中文 be legitimate. I disagree. There are plenty of examples where an English article (for instance) is covered in two or more languages in another language, where it makes no sense to link to a disambiguous page. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Proposed removal of some API output formats
On 8 February 2012 20:39, Thomas Gries m...@tgries.de wrote: Am 08.02.2012 20:31, schrieb Max Semenik: * txt, dbg, dump - the only reason they were added is that it was possible to add them, they don't serve the purpose of machine/machine communication. I think we should keep txt or raw That's an excellent reasoning for why we should keep txt or raw. Do you use either? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Mediawiki 2.0
On 7 December 2011 02:34, Dan Nessett dness...@yahoo.com wrote: 3. It would help to get it down to 2. I assume my comments apply to many other small wikis that use MW as well. Most operate on a shoe string budget. Tried a caching system? My wiki gets 3000+ visitors a day (I don't know how many Citizendium gets). But my server (costing 49EUR a month) can easily manage that plus several other websites including running some game servers as well. All I am saying is; it may be too easy to blame it on MW alone. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Temporary password too short
On 26 October 2011 13:55, William Allen Simpson william.allen.simp...@gmail.com wrote: Many of these accounts have expired email, so I don't see any notices. Recently, one that has a current email sent me a notice that reads in relevant part: # Temporary password: YH2MnDD # # This temporary password will expire in 7 days. # You should log in and choose a new password now. If someone else made this # request, or if you have remembered your original password, and you no longer # wish to change it, you may ignore this message and continue using your old # password. # I use fairly long passwords with special characters (a 96 character set including space). This replacement password is much more easily guessed. The account could have been stolen within minutes or hours. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Password_strength (Merely 7 case insensitive alphanumeric characters is equivalent to only 40-bits of strength.) Please update the password generator to use at least 17 characters, with at least some punctuation! (Users reading the text might have trouble noticing blanks, so don't use the space character.) You do not seem to understand how they get access to your password these days. Far fewer people try to get through the front door. Most systems have methods against brute-forcing (e.g. waiting for 5 seconds on every third wrong guess, etc.). So brute-forcing is not desirable against the system you are trying to hack (unless you wish to deny it service). The most likely scenario is an attempt to obtain either the database through SQL injections (probably tricky on a MediaWiki set up) or through your cookie. Most systems use a system where the hashed salted (I hope) password is saved in the cookie. Somehow getting your cookie will allow them to bruteforce the hashed sum. Although, depending on your system this can take from a few hours to a couple of years. Few systems are going to walk up to the front door and try to knock itself in. Your system will discover the behaviour if it is clever enough. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] Reclaiming a lost account on a private wiki: impossible
http://wiki.dikurevy.dk/Speciel:PasswordReset?uselang=en Seriously? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Reclaiming a lost account on a private wiki: impossible
On 16 August 2011 12:47, Huib Laurens sterke...@gmail.com wrote: make the wiki less private for a second, request the password and voila Assume that it is a company or community wiki that people are invited into. That means several accounts will be using the wiki and an administrator may not always be available to make it less private for a moment. It is not *my* account that is lost, it is another one's. Perhaps allow sysops to request passwordresets for other users? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] XKCD: Extended Mind
On 25 May 2011 08:35, K. Peachey p858sn...@gmail.com wrote: http://xkcd.org/903/ Wikipedia trivia: if you take any article, click on the first link in the article text not in parentheses or italics, and then repeat, you will eventually end up at Philosophy. This is also true. I came from Groom Range to Philosophy. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] facebook like box in mediawiki
On 18 April 2011 20:27, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Raul Kern wrote: how to add facebook like box to chapters mediawiki homepage: http://et.wikimedia.org The like button is usually added with an iframe HTML element. I suppose it would be simple enough to create this element in JavaScript (in MediaWiki:Common.js) and then have it inserted on the Main Page (or wherever). The bigger concern would be whether doing so is acceptable under the Wikimedia Foundation's privacy policy. I'm not sure how much data is transferred simply by users loading an iframe from another site or what other risks there might be from doing so. Or the fact that Facebook Like-buttons are popping up everywhere, and I hope they won't on WMFs wikis. Great, you liked enwiki's article on turtles! ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] I need an extra tab.
On 9 August 2010 13:35, Natasha Brown learnrussianspeakruss...@gmail.com wrote: It gave me Parse error: syntax error, unexpected T_ELSE, expecting T_FUNCTION in /home/wikitra2/public_html/w/includes/SkinTemplate.php on line 894 Then somehow I have managed to delete my LocalSetting.php and I have spend all night restoring it: I might have learn a bit... I wish someone Can help me! My site needs an extra tab. Can you pastebin that function? http://paste.pocoo.org/ Regards, le Svip ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] I need an extra tab.
On 8 August 2010 10:50, Natasha Brown learnrussianspeakruss...@gmail.com wrote: How do I add an extra tab on the top of all the wiki pages, right to Page and Discussion in Vector skin? Well, Wiktionary uses JavaScript, I think. Which is terrible. I recommend this method: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Svippong/AdditionalTabs /me rins before someone cries 'no--' ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] bold and italic
On 12 May 2010 13:33, Platonides platoni...@gmail.com wrote: Alex Brollo wrote: This question gives me the opportunity for a question to experts about server load. Is really so harder for the server to manage html tags like b, /b, i,/i instead of usual wiki markup ''', ''? The former have a great advantage since they are well-formed tags (even if they are deprecated html tags), while wiki markup is not at all; this would make much simpler to manage them by some bot scripts. You can use b and i in the wiki. In fact '' and ''' translate into b and i. Which reminds me, why doesn't it translates into strong and em or better yet, span style=font-weight: bold and span style=font-style: italic; ? It could still accept b and i, but translate them into correct HTML tags. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] bold and italic
On 12 May 2010 13:57, Platonides platoni...@gmail.com wrote: You could use span style=font-weight: bold, but what's the point of that? Because it would be correct HTML. Using b and i where what you really want is to make it bold and italic isn't deprecated. Incorrect, they are deprecated exactly for that reason, because the HTML should in no way imply the style and appearance of the content. Let CSS take care of that. Of course, you could do span class=i and span class=b instead, to make it neater. And it would follow the standard too. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] bold and italic
On 12 May 2010 14:24, Conrad Irwin conrad.ir...@gmail.com wrote: On 05/12/2010 01:11 PM, Svip wrote: On 12 May 2010 13:57, Platonides platoni...@gmail.com wrote: You could use span style=font-weight: bold, but what's the point of that? Because it would be correct HTML. It's foul HTML... The whole point is that you say what you mean, not what it should look like. How is bold and italic things you say? Maybe my own language isn't that nuanced. Using b and i where what you really want is to make it bold and italic isn't deprecated. Incorrect, they are deprecated exactly for that reason, because the HTML should in no way imply the style and appearance of the content. Let CSS take care of that. Of course, you could do span class=i and span class=b instead, to make it neater. And it would follow the standard too. It isn't deprecated. Okay, correct, but it is 'discouraged'. They even removed them in XHTML 2.0, not that anyone uses that. Though, I don't think it is going out of HTML5. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
