Re: [Wikitech-l] post project funding
Responses to BAWolf inline. On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 12:05 PM, Brian Wolff bawo...@gmail.com wrote: On 2/21/15, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: In general WMF has a conservative grant policy (with the exception of IEG, grant funding seems to be getting more conservative every year, and some mission-aligned projects can't get funding because they don't fit into the current molds of the grants programs). Spontaneous cash awards for previous work are unlikely. However, if there is an existing project that could use some developer time, it may be possible to get grant funding for future work. [Rant] I find this kind of doubtful when IEG's (which for an individual developer doing a small project is really the type of funding that applies) have been traditionally denied for anything that even remotely touches WMF infrastructure. (Arguably the original question was about toollabs things, which is far enough away from WMF infrastructure to be allowed as an IEG grant, but I won't let that stop my rant...). Furthermore, it appears that IEGs now seem to be focusing primarily on gender gap grants. Couple quick clarifications: 1. There have been many IEGs that focus on tool development, including those from the most recent round https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG#ieg-engaging. There's no tradition of denying software projects: they're quite well represented among completed IEG projects too https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:IEG/Proposals/Completed. In the past, there have been concerns from members of Product/Engineering that IEGs would divert resources from established development priorities, so projects that rely on MediaWiki integration were sometimes a tough sell. 2. IEG accepts applications twice a year; this coming round (April) the focus will be on gender-gap themed projects. The focus of the September 2015 round, if there is one, has not been established yet. But it's unlikely to be gender gap. I find it odd, that we have grants through GSOC and OPW to people who are largely newbies (although there are exceptions), and probably not in a position to do anything major. IEG provides grants as long as they are far enough away from the main site to not actually change much. But we do not provide grants to normal contributors who want to improve the technology of our websites, in big or important ways. That would be totally awesome. Ostensibly this is done in the name of: Any technical components must be standalone or completed on-wiki. Projects are completed without assistance or review from WMF engineering, so MediaWiki Extensions or software features requiring code review and integration cannot be funded. On-wiki tech work (templates, user scripts, gadgets) and completely standalone applications without a hosting dependency are allowed. Which on one hand is understandable. WMF-tech has its own priorities, and can't spend all its time babysitting whatever random ideas get funded. So I understand the fear that brought this about. On the other hand it is silly, since a grant to existing tech contributors is going to have much less review burden than gsoc/opw, and many projects might have minimal review burden, especially because most review could perhaps be done by non-wmf employees with +2, requiring only a final security/performance sign off. In fact, we do already provide very limited review to whatever randoms submit code to us over the internet (regardless of how they are funded, or lack thereof). If IEG grants were allowed in this area, it would be something that the grantee would have to plan and account for, with the understanding that nobody is going to provide a team of WMF developers to make someone else's grant happen. We should be providing the same amount of support to IEG grantees that we would to anyone who submitted code to us. That is, not much, but perhaps a little, and the amount dependent on how good their ideas are, and how clean their code is. That would be totally awesome. [End rant] Politically, I think its dangerous how WMF seems to more and more become the only stakeholder in MediaWiki development (Not that there is anything wrong with the WMF, I just don't like there being only 1 stakeholder). One way for there to be a more diverse group of interests is to allow grants to groups with goals consistent with Wikimedia's. While not exactly super diverse (all groups have similar goals), at least there would then be more groups, and hopefully result in more interesting and radical projects. --bawolff ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l -- Jonathan T. Morgan Community Research Lead Wikimedia Foundation User:Jmorgan (WMF) https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jmorgan_(WMF) jmor...@wikimedia.org ___ Wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] post project funding
Couple quick clarifications: 1. There have been many IEGs that focus on tool development, including those from the most recent round https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG#ieg-engaging. There's no tradition of denying software projects: they're quite well represented among completed IEG projects too https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:IEG/Proposals/Completed. In the past, there have been concerns from members of Product/Engineering that IEGs would divert resources from established development priorities, so projects that rely on MediaWiki integration were sometimes a tough sell. Im aware there are tool projects and gadget projects. While these are important, and can potentially have a big impact, they are ultimately a side show to our main technology (hopefully no one takes that the wrong way. Our tool creators do amazing things). My post is concerning mediawiki related projects. The problem is not that they are a tough sell. The problem is that they are categorically rejected regardless of how much sense they may or may not make. And yes, the original thread was about a tool. I suppose I've totally hijacked this thread... 2. IEG accepts applications twice a year; this coming round (April) the focus will be on gender-gap themed projects. The focus of the September 2015 round, if there is one, has not been established yet. But it's unlikely to be gender gap. I apologize, i was relying on rumour. I should have verified. Nonetheless if every period has a theme, it makes it difficult for people to get funding to do a specific project that inherently interests them. However i suppose that's going off topic -- Bawolff ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] post project funding
Brian Wolff bawo...@gmail.com writes: Politically, I think its dangerous how WMF seems to more and more become the only stakeholder in MediaWiki development. We do have the MediaWiki Stakeholders group. The people involved there would argue that they have funded MediaWiki-focused development. The WMF is the 600 pound gorilla, though. And the lack of leadership (a central topic at the recent developer summit) doesn't help. Mark. -- Mark A. Hershberger NicheWork LLC 717-271-1084 ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] post project funding
On 2/21/15, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: In general WMF has a conservative grant policy (with the exception of IEG, grant funding seems to be getting more conservative every year, and some mission-aligned projects can't get funding because they don't fit into the current molds of the grants programs). Spontaneous cash awards for previous work are unlikely. However, if there is an existing project that could use some developer time, it may be possible to get grant funding for future work. [Rant] I find this kind of doubtful when IEG's (which for an individual developer doing a small project is really the type of funding that applies) have been traditionally denied for anything that even remotely touches WMF infrastructure. (Arguably the original question was about toollabs things, which is far enough away from WMF infrastructure to be allowed as an IEG grant, but I won't let that stop my rant...). Furthermore, it appears that IEGs now seem to be focusing primarily on gender gap grants. I find it odd, that we have grants through GSOC and OPW to people who are largely newbies (although there are exceptions), and probably not in a position to do anything major. IEG provides grants as long as they are far enough away from the main site to not actually change much. But we do not provide grants to normal contributors who want to improve the technology of our websites, in big or important ways. Ostensibly this is done in the name of: Any technical components must be standalone or completed on-wiki. Projects are completed without assistance or review from WMF engineering, so MediaWiki Extensions or software features requiring code review and integration cannot be funded. On-wiki tech work (templates, user scripts, gadgets) and completely standalone applications without a hosting dependency are allowed. Which on one hand is understandable. WMF-tech has its own priorities, and can't spend all its time babysitting whatever random ideas get funded. So I understand the fear that brought this about. On the other hand it is silly, since a grant to existing tech contributors is going to have much less review burden than gsoc/opw, and many projects might have minimal review burden, especially because most review could perhaps be done by non-wmf employees with +2, requiring only a final security/performance sign off. In fact, we do already provide very limited review to whatever randoms submit code to us over the internet (regardless of how they are funded, or lack thereof). If IEG grants were allowed in this area, it would be something that the grantee would have to plan and account for, with the understanding that nobody is going to provide a team of WMF developers to make someone else's grant happen. We should be providing the same amount of support to IEG grantees that we would to anyone who submitted code to us. That is, not much, but perhaps a little, and the amount dependent on how good their ideas are, and how clean their code is. [End rant] Politically, I think its dangerous how WMF seems to more and more become the only stakeholder in MediaWiki development (Not that there is anything wrong with the WMF, I just don't like there being only 1 stakeholder). One way for there to be a more diverse group of interests is to allow grants to groups with goals consistent with Wikimedia's. While not exactly super diverse (all groups have similar goals), at least there would then be more groups, and hopefully result in more interesting and radical projects. --bawolff ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] post project funding
i’m thinking of projects that have already proven useful on the labs tool server or elsewhere that help move the wiki community forward. i may be wrong, but it seems that many developers volunteer their time and create some amazing projects for the wiki domain without being paid. they may not have the skill or time to properly apply for grants or other sources of funding. so i’m wondering if there is a way to turn this around or if something like already exists ... instead of having to write a grant requests and/or seeking other forms of funding, establish a grant or funding committee that looks for projects and developers that have proven helpful and have added value to the community. then award them with funding without them having to ask for it. o dan On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 7:48 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: That depends on what kind of project you have in mind, and I'm not sure what you mean by post-project funding. If you are thinking about continuing or expanding an existing program that has proven useful then there may be funding available. Try https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Start to get some ideas. You could also consider applying for funding from Wikimedia thematic organizations. Pine *This is an Encyclopedia* https://www.wikipedia.org/ *One gateway to the wide garden of knowledge, where lies The deep rock of our past, in which we must delve The well of our future,The clear water we must leave untainted for those who come after us,The fertile earth, in which truth may grow in bright places, tended by many hands,And the broad fall of sunshine, warming our first steps toward knowing how much we do not know.* *—Catherine Munro* On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 10:44 PM, dan entous dan.entous.wikime...@gmail.com wrote: does anyone know if there is a method for applying for post project funding within the wikiverse or if there is a committee that awards a project after it has proven itself useful? with kind regards, dan ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] post project funding
In general WMF has a conservative grant policy (with the exception of IEG, grant funding seems to be getting more conservative every year, and some mission-aligned projects can't get funding because they don't fit into the current molds of the grants programs). Spontaneous cash awards for previous work are unlikely. However, if there is an existing project that could use some developer time, it may be possible to get grant funding for future work. Pine *This is an Encyclopedia* https://www.wikipedia.org/ *One gateway to the wide garden of knowledge, where lies The deep rock of our past, in which we must delve The well of our future,The clear water we must leave untainted for those who come after us,The fertile earth, in which truth may grow in bright places, tended by many hands,And the broad fall of sunshine, warming our first steps toward knowing how much we do not know.* *—Catherine Munro* On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 11:00 PM, dan entous dan.entous.wikime...@gmail.com wrote: i’m thinking of projects that have already proven useful on the labs tool server or elsewhere that help move the wiki community forward. i may be wrong, but it seems that many developers volunteer their time and create some amazing projects for the wiki domain without being paid. they may not have the skill or time to properly apply for grants or other sources of funding. so i’m wondering if there is a way to turn this around or if something like already exists ... instead of having to write a grant requests and/or seeking other forms of funding, establish a grant or funding committee that looks for projects and developers that have proven helpful and have added value to the community. then award them with funding without them having to ask for it. o dan On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 7:48 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: That depends on what kind of project you have in mind, and I'm not sure what you mean by post-project funding. If you are thinking about continuing or expanding an existing program that has proven useful then there may be funding available. Try https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Start to get some ideas. You could also consider applying for funding from Wikimedia thematic organizations. Pine *This is an Encyclopedia* https://www.wikipedia.org/ *One gateway to the wide garden of knowledge, where lies The deep rock of our past, in which we must delve The well of our future,The clear water we must leave untainted for those who come after us,The fertile earth, in which truth may grow in bright places, tended by many hands,And the broad fall of sunshine, warming our first steps toward knowing how much we do not know.* *—Catherine Munro* On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 10:44 PM, dan entous dan.entous.wikime...@gmail.com wrote: does anyone know if there is a method for applying for post project funding within the wikiverse or if there is a committee that awards a project after it has proven itself useful? with kind regards, dan ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] post project funding
That depends on what kind of project you have in mind, and I'm not sure what you mean by post-project funding. If you are thinking about continuing or expanding an existing program that has proven useful then there may be funding available. Try https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Start to get some ideas. You could also consider applying for funding from Wikimedia thematic organizations. Pine *This is an Encyclopedia* https://www.wikipedia.org/ *One gateway to the wide garden of knowledge, where lies The deep rock of our past, in which we must delve The well of our future,The clear water we must leave untainted for those who come after us,The fertile earth, in which truth may grow in bright places, tended by many hands,And the broad fall of sunshine, warming our first steps toward knowing how much we do not know.* *—Catherine Munro* On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 10:44 PM, dan entous dan.entous.wikime...@gmail.com wrote: does anyone know if there is a method for applying for post project funding within the wikiverse or if there is a committee that awards a project after it has proven itself useful? with kind regards, dan ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
