Re: wine rejects development (Mouse "escapes" window or is confined to an area in the full screen program NO HACKS PLEASE)
Hi again, Vitaliy this are great news. I will see if I can read a bit more about XI2. :-D Keep going. You will crack that Bug. Ill try to help if i can steal Time from somewhere. But Honestly I am no Hacker. So don't expect to much of me. I am happy if I can solve the hacks vs. patch problem :P As I see in the reaction this is a Problem that does exist in other Bugs too. (Surprise! ;) ) I think Austin is right, stopping Hacks would slow down development. And we need people hacking. But we also need clear, and on topic Bugzilla or winewill clutter to much. (My believe) It is at least hard for me to pick the interesting Posts in Bugzilla. Or even the Interesting Bugs. Don't know but I see a lots of App based Bug reports. They get collected it one real Bug report. Which is sometimes just the first one that got reported. Hard to search for someone not tracking Bugs. (Aside Most ppl dont look enough I bet ;) ) There are some Ideas about splitting Hacks from patches. I think this maybe an aproach to solve this. Lets see: Looking at the Mouse "escape" Bug. We have 290 Post. Haven't count but going after my feeling at least half of the post belongs more in a Forum then in a Bug tracker. It makes technical Facts realy Hard to follow. I think Bugzilla is really not suitable for Hacker Approach. Bugzilla thinks more in terms where people actually know what they doing. And in case of wine even its best developer are shouting in the dark sometimes I bet. If you look at the Bugzilla post, you'll find: - Tech info - Approach Ideas - Discussions - Affected Infos - Instructions for installing and Bugfixing - A lot of Hacks / patches This is hell of different information unstructured in Bugzilla. Thinking on it, it may be better put into a maintained Wikki with different Sections to go on. There could be a menu which links people to the basic Instructions. It can hold the Hacks. It can serve as Link Collection and Info. And most Important of all it can be overhauled. Closed Discussions can be deleted. If some real approach is found all Info can be back posted into Bugzilla by some "Officer". With that a solution is accepted and likely to enter the main tree when ready. The Idea seems to be quite flexible, but maybe it won't be structured enough. Which means more work for Maintainers (I would install community maintainers :( *sight* Maybe that Idea is not good enough, what do you think? Hmm at least in vision it would give a workflow. Any more Ideas on this? And what should we do with the people on the Bug. Some saying the same within the bug itself. 8 Posts today. Shall I collect them and bring them here? Maybe more Brains come up with more approaches. I hesitate to do so: To much cooks corrupt the porridge. :) Regards Peter > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:41 AM, Vitaliy Margolen > wrote: >> Peter Kovacs wrote: >>> Now Vitaliy Margolen actively stopped the >>> maintenance of this workarounds (in the bug called dirty hacks.), by >>> marking the patches obsolete and changing title. >> Yes, tried to, of course I can't stop anyone from hacking and posting their >> work, even on the same bug. All I can do is ask not to. > > Then where do you propose people put that work? > >> I did this because all of those workarounds (with exception of few) done by >> people, who don't understand the entire scope of the problem. They've >> touched (and broke) parts of DInput that have nothing to do with the >> problem. I've already seen several invalid bug reports that were caused by >> some of this hacks. > > This has happened with other bugs/patches too, e.g., the DIB > engine/the msi hack for photoshop/etc. > >>> Is it right to have no Dirty Hack solution which just works? >> Then those hacks called proper patches. But they have to work for >> everything. A "Dirty Hack" is something that avoids a problem for one set of >> apps and totally breaks things for everything else. > > Considering the main ones use a environmental variable to enable the > hack, the risk of that is greatly reduced. > > I'm not saying these aren't hacks. By all means, they are. But users > need/want a solution, so let them have it. Perhaps I'm a bit biased > though, since the last game I played (Borderlands) needed this hack, > so I've also been affected ;-). > > -- > -Austin
wine rejects development (Mouse "escapes" window or is confined to an area in the full screen program NO HACKS PLEASE)
Hi there, I want to bring this Issue up in Development Mailinglist. This proplem is about a bug that cant be fixed within wine, and The Bugtracker doesnt help it. I think this Bug is at the moment an Epic Fail of Open Source Development. (And needs to be solved so we get a accepted Fix somewhere someday) The Bug is Deadlocked. The Problem is in this Bug roughly spoken that in some games the Mouse movement is captured and not the real position. Now X only returns the real position. This Bug is a dependance of X (If I got it right). Since this Bug appeared people worked around this Bug by improving dirty hacks (by calculating mouse movement using weird? code), and maintaining them. And when Possible to make them switchable. Now Vitaliy Margolen actively stopped the maintenance of this workarounds (in the bug called dirty hacks.), by marking the patches obsolete and changing title. The Bug exist since 2009 - 12 - 06. And has a long thread. I understand the move of Margolen here. For that you need to look at the Bug history (clicky: http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6971). And I dont put blame on his move. But for this Bug wine needs another political solution. Just stopping people to write hacks, dirty or not will stop people reaching in more and more patches. This sole incident wont have an effect on hole development but most bugs I followed started with a dirty hack. And this is definitely giving the wrong impression on wine. What I want to say, Margolens move might be technical right, but is political pretty lame. Atm I don't see any ability that the bug will be proper fixed. 1) I Xorg may implement the Problem or may not. Maybe they are even not aware(? - Haven't took a look) The Bug-tracking in wine does not contain a Link to the Bug-tracking in Xorg. 2) I am betting wine - Dev has no one working on the Bug actively. So how can we get a proper Fix or point people towards proper fixes? Is it right to have no Dirty Hack solution which just works? Do you think by stopping Hacks you will encourage development in what (you) think is the right solution? Where is the Xorg Link for this Problem since it is a problem interesting wine but maybe not Xorg? Before anyone asks, I don't have the Time to solve this Bug. Nor I do believe does any one of the "dirty" hackers. Or they had done it Proper by now. Thanks Listening, hope you got the Problem I want to address. I am not on the list since I develop nothing for wine. I would it appreciate it a lot, if I could stay with the discussion by keeping my email address in CC Regards Peter
Re: Commercial support
>Rather than set threshholds on capacity, there might be a tiered >arrangement >whereby anybody can get a class D listing for nothing. Class C, B and >A >listings would cost $200, $1000, and $1. The page would then be >ranked by >listing class, and within listing class by geography. How do you want to determine the different classes. If I pay 10.000$ I get listed on the Premium list? Or is it more that If I have more employees working on wine i pay more for being a official supporter? I am not sure if this is what the winhq should aim at. On the market it could work I do not know because I do not know how great the exsisting demand is. But we should be careful with lists. Every list is a official recommandation. And the wine Project should take care that these People do honestly contribute to wine. A general fee for all is better IMHO. We could make a fee 0f 200$ link the List to a profile where the Companies stats is listed. There we could make a Rubrik like the Company donated over X $ to the project. That would state the closeness and the support. You move up in the list if you collect enough points by producing code, patches and donation. Wich you can check on the profile. How bout that? >3) a link back to winehq.org from there site and not twenty pages into >there site. We could make a Button like Offical Wine support for the Commercial supporter. This button can be placed on the homepage. >7) if a banned party wants re-instatement they must pay a fine of >$25,000 and post a written apology to the community for there actions. It would be better if a official Wine Support Company signs a contract where it agrees to an penalty payment if violating the contract. The violation fee could be differ to the severity of the violation. This sounds serious to me. Because this is a two way road. We promise the company to treat them right and they ensure us to be honest on the project. Of course a contract is a bit more demanding then the simple list but they become the OFFICIAL Partner for wine. I think that is more worth then a fee. Greetings Peter
