Re: Code quality (was Re: comctl32: Fix invalid syntax)
Am Samstag, 9. Februar 2008 02:13:34 schrieb L. Rahyen: On Friday February 8 2008 04:41:28 Bang Jun-young wrote: That's the main reason why Wine keeps crashing every time I give it a try with my Windows apps. ... I see something fundamentally wrong with development process. I think that current development process isn't a problem at all. In fact AJ is very good at what he is doing! As far as I understand your patch (comctl32: Fix invalid syntax.) was rejected just because you forgot to add proper (descriptive) changelog entry. What is the real problem is the lack of testers (who report regressions and bugs) and developers. This is why WINE still has a lot of bugs, regressions are quite common thing to happen, etc. To fix this, more people should read wine-patches and test patches before they are committed, more people should write bug reports, more people should be involved in the development, and so on. Unfortunately, not all people have enough time for such tasks. However, WINE is pretty usable today. I'd say we need more tests. Any patch that breaks a test from our testsuite when AJ runs them prior to committing is rejected
Re: Code quality (was Re: comctl32: Fix invalid syntax)
On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Bang Jun-young wrote: [...] In fact, this is a well known mistake many newbie Win32 developers make (and fix in minutes). It shouldn't have been in the tree in the first place if he actually have read the patch. News flash!!! You too are allowed to review patches posted to wine-patches and to point out their flaws. Some people do so regularly and thus help Alexandre. If bad patches are accepted it's partly your fault. (and mine too cause I don't review patches enough) There are a lot of easily catchable bugs in the tree, for example, potential security holes like buffer overrun, meaningless comparison of unsigned 0 (or 0), misuse of BOOL vs. HRESULT, misuse of functions such as strcasecmp(), use of non-portable syntax, etc. You are welcome to review the Wine code and submit patches too. Again some others do so on a regular basis (me included this time :-). But if you don't want Wine to get better, then sure, just bitch about it. That's the main reason why Wine keeps crashing every time I give it a try with my Windows apps. sarcasm Rght. It must be the *main* cause of crashes. All the stub functions and unimplemented undocumented features must really be secondary causes of crashes in comparison. /sarcasm -- Francois Gouget [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://fgouget.free.fr/ 1 + e ^ ( i * pi ) = 0
Re: Code quality (was Re: comctl32: Fix invalid syntax)
hi base, If winehq.org is Alexandre's own property, this is something fundametally wrong again. Well.. then 'something' must be wrong with the linux kernel aswell.. how comes noone forked? hmmm.. You may try to learn how things work in the Wine project by reading the following thread: http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2006-September/050915.html Although time consuming, it was rather a good read. While digesting the follow up 'governance ideas' thread I had a little idea that might help, though I doubt the problems discussed at that time are still that relevant. IMHO most of the wine-patches-black-hole problem is complexity of submitted patches, making them hard to review and rather lead to those patches being silently skipped in favor of the infinitly queuing later patches. One simple fix for this would be to recommend a maximum size for diffs on the developer wiki (additionally to the recommendation to focus on a small context per patch) and set up a wine-patches auto-reply for patches beyond that size, warning the submitter that because of sheer size (=complexity), the patch is likely to be skipped because of merge pressure of the following patches. That way, new contributors would get another visible warning to submit patches that are easier to review. Again, I can't estimate how much of an issue this is atm. I see a lot of patches commit or discussed on -devel, so it might not be at all. Anyways.. Another thing: after my important exam in march, I will probably try setting up a drupal site and see how it can be merged/ integrated with the wineforum, mailing lists and bugzilla.. there are some cool modules and regexp power waiting to be explored :) Last note: Jesse's DIB engine stuff, my work on printing aswell as Detlef's progress on sanitizing the spooler will hopefully show some results, too. Jesse I'll discuss that stuff with you next month be sure to be ready for some wine-patches resubmit cycles ;D regards, marcel. -- div id=signature Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal. -- Henry Ford (1863-1947) Change the world! Vote revolution: http://hfopi.org/vote-future /div
Re: Code quality (was Re: comctl32: Fix invalid syntax)
On Friday February 8 2008 04:41:28 Bang Jun-young wrote: That's the main reason why Wine keeps crashing every time I give it a try with my Windows apps. ... I see something fundamentally wrong with development process. I think that current development process isn't a problem at all. In fact AJ is very good at what he is doing! As far as I understand your patch (comctl32: Fix invalid syntax.) was rejected just because you forgot to add proper (descriptive) changelog entry. What is the real problem is the lack of testers (who report regressions and bugs) and developers. This is why WINE still has a lot of bugs, regressions are quite common thing to happen, etc. To fix this, more people should read wine-patches and test patches before they are committed, more people should write bug reports, more people should be involved in the development, and so on. Unfortunately, not all people have enough time for such tasks. However, WINE is pretty usable today. Since 1993, Wine has never gotten to the point where everybody could rely on it for his daily work. It has as awfully many bugs as Win95. WINE can work reliably even with very complex programs (such as Photoshop CS - I use it pretty often). And if you don't see BIG improvement in last years you either tried very few Windows programs or you are very unlucky... In my practice WINE run most of the programs I try (well, I didn't tried thousands of Windows programs and there is no hardcore gamers in my family so my statistic may be biased). In fact, it is so good that I typically can rely on it to run any program I'm downloading from the Internet (success rate for me is more than 85% for small and average programs/games downloadable for free from the Internet). And if Windows program(s) work correctly on WINE, cases of random crashes are very rare. They (generally) do exist but most of Windows programs aren't affected by such bugs - much more often you find repeatable crashes after specific sequence(s) of steps. And your statement Wine has never gotten to the point where everybody could rely on it for his daily work is strange. In fact it is true for Windows too (Windows never gotten to the point where everybody could rely on it for his daily work). Maybe you just mean that WINE doesn't work well for you and some (or maybe even most) other people? But working well for some people or for nobody is very different things... There is a lot of people who use WINE for their daily tasks. For example, I and whole my family use Linux and WINE on daily basis (because of dependency on some Windows software and Windows games). There is no Windows installed on our computers (only I have Windows XP in VMWare for my very specific purposes to run Autodesk products). In my practice WINE and Linux are absolutely stable (if no bugs in WINE triggered by the program of course). In fact, I have trading station for Windows working 24 hours per day on my Linux server with WINE (if trading station fail or crash, I potentially can lose real money). And for this purpose (which by definition requires high stability) WINE+Linux works MUCH better than Windows XP. And your comparison of WINE with Windows 95 isn't true at all. Did you actually ever tried to use Windows 95? It will fail MUCH more often than WINE, and WINE can run more Windows programs than Windows 95 (I have it in VMWare so I really tested this with some programs year ago or so, just for fun). Even Windows 98 cannot run many important programs such as Photoshop (it require at least Windows 2000). And Windows 95/98 have a LOT of random crashes; WINE is much better - for many programs it can work for months 24 hours per day without problems, and even if it crashes in some cases, other programs aren't affected (especially if they are launched from different prefix). Everything above is my personal experience, and for some users it may be worse. But for me, WINE work good enough for daily use, even for very important applications. So you can consider my story as yet-another-success-story-of-using-WINE. Obviously, this doesn't mean that WINE is good enough for everyone... But at least it is good enough for me, my family and some of my friends. There is some minor problems (for example, my brother have some games that don't work on WINE at all but he doesn't care very much about this) so WINE isn't perfect of course... But I just want to say that it is good enough for daily work and gaming at least for some people, and a lot of Windows software is usable on Linux with WINE. Personally, I think that AJ and all other WINE developers are doing very great and important work! Big thanks to all of them...
re: Code quality (was Re: comctl32: Fix invalid syntax)
Bang Jun-young wrote: In fact, this is a well known mistake many newbie Win32 developers make (and fix in minutes). It shouldn't have been in the tree in the first place if he actually have read the patch. There are a lot of easily catchable bugs in the tree, for example, potential security holes like buffer overrun, meaningless comparison of unsigned 0 (or 0), misuse of BOOL vs. HRESULT, misuse of functions such as strcasecmp(), use of non-portable syntax, etc. Most of them (if not all) could be filtered out if he have read the patches carefully. That's the main reason why Wine keeps crashing every time I give it a try with my Windows apps. I don't think so. In my experience, it's either a missing feature or something more subtle. Outright bugs of the kind you describe are the minority. I think. Since 1993, Wine has never gotten to the point where everybody could rely on it for his daily work. It has as awfully many bugs as Win95. I see something fundamentally wrong with development process. Nah, Alexandre usually does a good job of screening patches. We're lucky to have such a good maintainer, IMHO. (I say this knowing full well that newbies are put off by how difficult it is to get feedback because I have seen much, much worse maintainers. Imagine if, say, that guy who always yells at the newbies to not paste logs in bug reports was the maintainer. We'd probably lose all our developers in a month.) So you're peeved you don't have commit access. That's understandable, but it's time to get over it. IMHO the single-committer system works pretty well once you get into the swing of it. It actually forces at least one code review on every patch! - Dan
Re: Code quality (was Re: comctl32: Fix invalid syntax)
Bang Jun-young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: People prefer to follow Alexandre's tree but nobody forces them to use it. If winehq.org is Alexandre's own property, this is something fundametally wrong again. You may try to learn how things work in the Wine project by reading the following thread: http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2006-September/050915.html and I'd suggest you very carefully read what Mike said: http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2006-September/051163.html -- Dmitry.
