Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
> > > > Could we also have some discussion about improving the interface for > > admins/maintainers? I've found that the limitations of the current > > interface make it very difficult to do basic admin tasks. > > > > -- > > Rosanne DiMesio > > > > Rosanne, > > I think thats a good idea. Could you please go to the wiki and fill > in some details in the (new) Agenda for the next meeting some more > details about whats wrong / some framework for ideas on how to improve > it? > > http://wiki.winehq.org/AppDBUpgrades#head-72164e637b3bc430e5ce6810966b79d5f388bdf5 > > Cheers, > -Zach I've added my list of "AppDB admin pet peeves" to the agenda for 2/13. Other admins, please take a look and add anything important I may have overlooked. http://wiki.winehq.org/AppDBUpgrades?action=show#head-7a870d1b0154cf73cb1557c87fb3e703465974f0 -- Rosanne DiMesio
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
Quick clarification on the 'When': WHEN: 9PM UTC 2/13/09 As far as getting dirty i'm officially covered in mud: http://repo.or.cz/w/NewAppDB.git Thus far i've been working in a branch called "survey". http://repo.or.cz/w/NewAppDB.git?a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/survey If you're interested in getting messy let me know and I'll add you to the repo.or.cz user list. --Zach
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
On Sat, 7 Feb 2009 01:20:47 -0500 Zachary Goldberg wrote: > Comments? Can we have a wiki like change log for the notes in the AppDB to see whats be changed when and by who. Can we have a easy way for maintainers to (plan check for bugs give there system spec and so on). Sorry my spelling has let me down on that one. Like a sub mailing list or some way of sending the same email to all the maintainers of an app that you are an maintainer of. Why I have said this here and not on the irc is because I can not keep up with real time chat with my spelling skill level.
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
2009/2/7 Rosanne DiMesio : > > Could we also have some discussion about improving the interface for > admins/maintainers? I've found that the limitations of the current interface > make it very difficult to do basic admin tasks. > > -- > Rosanne DiMesio > > > Rosanne, I think thats a good idea. Could you please go to the wiki and fill in some details in the (new) Agenda for the next meeting some more details about whats wrong / some framework for ideas on how to improve it? http://wiki.winehq.org/AppDBUpgrades#head-72164e637b3bc430e5ce6810966b79d5f388bdf5 Cheers, -Zach
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
> > Theres enough information from the discussion to begin moving forward > with coding. Andrew Riedi and I thus far are the volunteers to begin > digging in. If anybody else is interested in getting their hands > dirty please do respond to this, and we'll work out how to get it > done. I imagine I'll setup and email a public .git (that isn't live > to winehq) for development. Stay tuned for that. > I can offer assistance with the general appdb design, db questions etc. I'm glad to see that someone is going to pick this stuff up, the appdb could be much better than it is and its a great tool for wine users. Chris
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
Yes I agree. AppDB admin backend enhancements http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16357 --- On Sat, 7/2/09, Rosanne DiMesio wrote: > From: Rosanne DiMesio > Subject: Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all > To: wine-devel@winehq.org > Received: Saturday, 7 February, 2009, 11:48 PM > > > > Meeting went well. We had a good number of > contributors for more than > > 2 hours. Several outcomes from the meeting and a > transcript are > > available on the wiki: > > > > http://wiki.winehq.org/AppDBUpgrades > > > > In Summary: We have a consensus that we want to > replace the generic > > open questions we have now with a more structured > survey where we can > > get specific bits of data. > > > > The premise is to turn the current system of > 'please tell me how it > > went' to a more formal 'give us a full formal > (and consistent) report > > of *how* you ran the app and your experience > thereafter'. > > > > To accomplish this the idea is two have a survey with > two major > > sections, an "Install" and a > "Runtime". Each section strives to get > > information as to how much progress was made in > [installing/running] > > and how hard it was to make that progress. From there > we can generate > > much more detailed and objective information about how > well an > > application runs. There are several ideas for how to > determine an > > overall 'rating' based on this information. > > > > There is all of this in much more detail on the wiki, > just wanted to > > give a brief summary. > > > > Theres enough information from the discussion to begin > moving forward > > with coding. Andrew Riedi and I thus far are the > volunteers to begin > > digging in. If anybody else is interested in getting > their hands > > dirty please do respond to this, and we'll work > out how to get it > > done. I imagine I'll setup and email a public > .git (that isn't live > > to winehq) for development. Stay tuned for that. > > > > The major open issue is still how to determine a > rating and how to > > display whatever rating. To decide this issue I think > we should have > > another meeting next Friday. > > > > What: Meeting #2 to discuss ratings: > > Where: #winehackers on irc.freenode.net > > When: 9PM UTC > > > > Comments? > > > > > > Could we also have some discussion about improving the > interface for admins/maintainers? I've found that the > limitations of the current interface make it very difficult > to do basic admin tasks. > > -- > Rosanne DiMesio Make Yahoo!7 your homepage and win a trip to the Quiksilver Pro. Find out more
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
> > Meeting went well. We had a good number of contributors for more than > 2 hours. Several outcomes from the meeting and a transcript are > available on the wiki: > > http://wiki.winehq.org/AppDBUpgrades > > In Summary: We have a consensus that we want to replace the generic > open questions we have now with a more structured survey where we can > get specific bits of data. > > The premise is to turn the current system of 'please tell me how it > went' to a more formal 'give us a full formal (and consistent) report > of *how* you ran the app and your experience thereafter'. > > To accomplish this the idea is two have a survey with two major > sections, an "Install" and a "Runtime". Each section strives to get > information as to how much progress was made in [installing/running] > and how hard it was to make that progress. From there we can generate > much more detailed and objective information about how well an > application runs. There are several ideas for how to determine an > overall 'rating' based on this information. > > There is all of this in much more detail on the wiki, just wanted to > give a brief summary. > > Theres enough information from the discussion to begin moving forward > with coding. Andrew Riedi and I thus far are the volunteers to begin > digging in. If anybody else is interested in getting their hands > dirty please do respond to this, and we'll work out how to get it > done. I imagine I'll setup and email a public .git (that isn't live > to winehq) for development. Stay tuned for that. > > The major open issue is still how to determine a rating and how to > display whatever rating. To decide this issue I think we should have > another meeting next Friday. > > What: Meeting #2 to discuss ratings: > Where: #winehackers on irc.freenode.net > When: 9PM UTC > > Comments? > > Could we also have some discussion about improving the interface for admins/maintainers? I've found that the limitations of the current interface make it very difficult to do basic admin tasks. -- Rosanne DiMesio
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
All, Meeting went well. We had a good number of contributors for more than 2 hours. Several outcomes from the meeting and a transcript are available on the wiki: http://wiki.winehq.org/AppDBUpgrades In Summary: We have a consensus that we want to replace the generic open questions we have now with a more structured survey where we can get specific bits of data. The premise is to turn the current system of 'please tell me how it went' to a more formal 'give us a full formal (and consistent) report of *how* you ran the app and your experience thereafter'. To accomplish this the idea is two have a survey with two major sections, an "Install" and a "Runtime". Each section strives to get information as to how much progress was made in [installing/running] and how hard it was to make that progress. From there we can generate much more detailed and objective information about how well an application runs. There are several ideas for how to determine an overall 'rating' based on this information. There is all of this in much more detail on the wiki, just wanted to give a brief summary. Theres enough information from the discussion to begin moving forward with coding. Andrew Riedi and I thus far are the volunteers to begin digging in. If anybody else is interested in getting their hands dirty please do respond to this, and we'll work out how to get it done. I imagine I'll setup and email a public .git (that isn't live to winehq) for development. Stay tuned for that. The major open issue is still how to determine a rating and how to display whatever rating. To decide this issue I think we should have another meeting next Friday. What: Meeting #2 to discuss ratings: Where: #winehackers on irc.freenode.net When: 9PM UTC Comments?
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
Alright, this is on for tonight at 6PM EST. If you've any interest or opinion of how the AppDB rating system should be upgraded I encourage you to attend and/or check the wiki afterwards to see what was decided. --Zach
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
How about determining how well an individual app is represented by the test suite? The better the test suite replicates the behaviour of the app, the more likely wine is to support the app. nick *** WARNING: This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain legally privileged, confidential or private information and may be protected by copyright. You may only use it if you are the person(s) it was intended to be sent to and if you use it in an authorised way. No one is allowed to use, review, alter, transmit, disclose, distribute, print or copy this e-mail without appropriate authority. If this e-mail was not intended for you and was sent to you by mistake, please telephone or e-mail me immediately, destroy any hardcopies of this e-mail and delete it and any copies of it from your computer system. Any right which the sender may have under copyright law, and any legal privilege and confidentiality attached to this e-mail is not waived or destroyed by that mistake. It is your responsibility to ensure that this e-mail does not contain and is not affected by computer viruses, defects or interference by third parties or replication problems (including incompatibility with your computer system). Opinions contained in this e-mail do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Queensland Department of Main Roads, Queensland Transport or Maritime Safety Queensland, or endorsed organisations utilising the same infrastructure. ***
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
If you have interest in the future of the AppDB please make sure your ideas are in or referenced by the agenda on the wiki. I think things will go much smoother if we discuss line items from the agenda one by one rather than a random chaos. http://wiki.winehq.org/AppDBUpgrades
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
On Tue, 3 Feb 2009 23:02:12 +0100 Alexander Nicolaysen Sørnes wrote: > What if we add a small questionnaire which will then pick the approprite > Gold/Silver ... rating? That what I like to see.
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Zachary Goldberg wrote: > All, > > So it seems to be almost every other day now when somebody mentions > how broken the appdb rating system is. This "broken-ness" has had > several high level discussions on Wine-Devel. There have also been > many, many proposed solutions to this problem. > > I do not wish to discuss these problems or these solutions in this > thread. It is time something was done about this. By done I mean > agreed upon (probably the harder part) then implemented in code and > published to the winehq server(s). > > I'de like to arrange an IRC discussion for all those interested in > finalizing an attack plan, and then assigning the responsibility of > doing it to somebody who is capable and has the time (perhaps myself). > > Lets (arbitrarily) set a time for the chat at: > > When: 11PM UTC (6PM EST) 2/6/09 (Friday) > Where: #winehackers > > If this arbitrary time seems to be poorly chosen for a large number of > people then please propose an alternative well in advance so all are > aware of it. > > --Zach > > > Thanks for taking the initiative! Count me in. -- -Austin
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:44 AM, Zachary Goldberg wrote: > All, > > So it seems to be almost every other day now when somebody mentions > how broken the appdb rating system is. This "broken-ness" has had > several high level discussions on Wine-Devel. There have also been > many, many proposed solutions to this problem. > > I do not wish to discuss these problems or these solutions in this > thread. It is time something was done about this. By done I mean > agreed upon (probably the harder part) then implemented in code and > published to the winehq server(s). > > I'de like to arrange an IRC discussion for all those interested in > finalizing an attack plan, and then assigning the responsibility of > doing it to somebody who is capable and has the time (perhaps myself). > > Lets (arbitrarily) set a time for the chat at: > > When: 11PM UTC (6PM EST) 2/6/09 (Friday) > Where: #winehackers > > If this arbitrary time seems to be poorly chosen for a large number of > people then please propose an alternative well in advance so all are > aware of it. > > --Zach I have some thoughts on the subject. I'll try to be there Branan
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
Zachary Goldberg >Sent: Feb 3, 2009 12:27 PM >To: James Mckenzie >Cc: Wine Devel , Jeremy Newman >Subject: Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all > >2009/2/3 James Mckenzie : >> This would be too early for people on the West Coast of the United States by >> about three hours. >> >> No time will be satisfactory for all people who work on this project. >> >> What I feel is necessary at this point is to collect who lives in what time >> zone so that we incovience as few people as possible. >> >> Since this would be Saturday in Asia, this time may work for the majority of >> the people on this list. >> >> Also, will there be a transcript of the discussion and where will it be >> placed since this has a major impact on the functionality of the >> Applications Database. >> >> James McKenzie >> >> > >I have made a wiki on winehq with an agenda which will be updated with >the results (and maybe transcript?) of the conversation. > >http://wiki.winehq.org/AppDBUpgrades Thank you for your forward thinking and thoughtfulness. I look forward to reading the Wiki and reviewing what is determined during the IRC conversation as I will not be able to attend. James McKenzie
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
Zachary Goldberg wrote: > All, > > So it seems to be almost every other day now when somebody mentions > how broken the appdb rating system is. This "broken-ness" has had > several high level discussions on Wine-Devel. There have also been > many, many proposed solutions to this problem. > > I do not wish to discuss these problems or these solutions in this > thread. It is time something was done about this. By done I mean > agreed upon (probably the harder part) then implemented in code and > published to the winehq server(s). > > I'de like to arrange an IRC discussion for all those interested in > finalizing an attack plan, and then assigning the responsibility of > doing it to somebody who is capable and has the time (perhaps myself). > > Lets (arbitrarily) set a time for the chat at: > > When: 11PM UTC (6PM EST) 2/6/09 (Friday) > Where: #winehackers > > If this arbitrary time seems to be poorly chosen for a large number of > people then please propose an alternative well in advance so all are > aware of it. > > --Zach Zach, I completely agree with this strong-armed measure. Let's get it done. :) Thanks, Scott Ritchie
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
Tirsdag 03 februar 2009 20:27:25 skrev Zachary Goldberg: > 2009/2/3 James Mckenzie : > > This would be too early for people on the West Coast of the United States > > by about three hours. > > > > No time will be satisfactory for all people who work on this project. > > > > What I feel is necessary at this point is to collect who lives in what > > time zone so that we incovience as few people as possible. > > > > Since this would be Saturday in Asia, this time may work for the majority > > of the people on this list. > > > > Also, will there be a transcript of the discussion and where will it be > > placed since this has a major impact on the functionality of the > > Applications Database. > > > > James McKenzie > > I have made a wiki on winehq with an agenda which will be updated with > the results (and maybe transcript?) of the conversation. > > http://wiki.winehq.org/AppDBUpgrades Great initiative! But I don't think I can make it to the meeting. I recently got appdb commit access, so I can see about making the changes. What if we add a small questionnaire which will then pick the approprite Gold/Silver ... rating? Alexander N. Sørnes
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
2009/2/3 Sparr : > On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Louis Lenders > wrote: >> Zachary Goldberg bluesata.com> writes: >> I think this will be a very difficult if not impossible task to accomplish. >> If we talk about test results, it's the app maintainer that is responsible >> for the correctness of the ratings and test results. What would you want to >> do if you think that the ratings for application X are overestimated? >> Remove the maintainer from the application entry in appdb? >> Then you'd have to check yourself for every app, if ratings are correct. > > These problems could be mitigated by making it easier to submit test > results. Even something as simple as a 5-star "how well does it work > for you" system that any registered user can submit with a single > click. Yes, the information we get will be less specific, but we will > get a *LOT* more of it. I would rather know that 1740 people have > gotten a game to work and 400 haven't (and no other information than > that) than to see just just five detailed test results saying > gold/gold/silver/silver/garbage. > > > As I mentioned previously this thread's purpose is not to decide how this is to be done. Thats what the IRC meeting is for. We can go on and on about how its best to be done over wine-devel but unless the people who have a stake in the matter and the ability to do it sit down and make some hard decisions the talk won't result in action.
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Louis Lenders wrote: > Zachary Goldberg bluesata.com> writes: > I think this will be a very difficult if not impossible task to accomplish. > If we talk about test results, it's the app maintainer that is responsible > for the correctness of the ratings and test results. What would you want to > do if you think that the ratings for application X are overestimated? > Remove the maintainer from the application entry in appdb? > Then you'd have to check yourself for every app, if ratings are correct. These problems could be mitigated by making it easier to submit test results. Even something as simple as a 5-star "how well does it work for you" system that any registered user can submit with a single click. Yes, the information we get will be less specific, but we will get a *LOT* more of it. I would rather know that 1740 people have gotten a game to work and 400 haven't (and no other information than that) than to see just just five detailed test results saying gold/gold/silver/silver/garbage.
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
Zachary Goldberg bluesata.com> writes: > > All, > > So it seems to be almost every other day now when somebody mentions > how broken the appdb rating system is. This "broken-ness" has had > several high level discussions on Wine-Devel. There have also been > many, many proposed solutions to this problem. > > I do not wish to discuss these problems or these solutions in this > thread. It is time something was done about this. By done I mean > agreed upon (probably the harder part) then implemented in code and > published to the winehq server(s). > > I'de like to arrange an IRC discussion for all those interested in > finalizing an attack plan, and then assigning the responsibility of > doing it to somebody who is capable and has the time (perhaps myself). > > Lets (arbitrarily) set a time for the chat at: > > When: 11PM UTC (6PM EST) 2/6/09 (Friday) > Where: #winehackers > I think this will be a very difficult if not impossible task to accomplish. If we talk about test results, it's the app maintainer that is responsible for the correctness of the ratings and test results. What would you want to do if you think that the ratings for application X are overestimated? Remove the maintainer from the application entry in appdb? Then you'd have to check yourself for every app, if ratings are correct. BTW, also the opposite occurs very frequently: applications that are rated too low (garbage) whereas they are probably bronze or higher. When users send in garbage test results, i'm always tempted to try out the app myself if it has free download. In many cases it appears the application needs additional packages like mdac, vbrun or anything. Also many garbage results come from installing in a busted wineprefix ( just do a winetricks dcom98, and you'll get garbage results for apps in many cases), and they run just fine in a new ~/.wine So if someone shouts: "Hey, the app is rated gold, but for me it crashes" it's not necessarily the "gold-rater" who's wrong. My conclusion really is, it's very difficult to get the ratings correct, but always worth a try of course. What's more important is I think , that the appdb is rich source of info on how to get application X or Y running. Regards So my conclusion is it will be very difficult to get
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
On Di, 2009-02-03 at 12:19 -0700, James Mckenzie wrote: > What I feel is necessary at this point is to collect who lives in what > time zone so that we incovience as few people as possible. I added a TZ column long ago, when the developer list was on the Fontpage. The infos are now here: http://wiki.winehq.org/WhosWho -- By by ... Detlef
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
2009/2/3 James Mckenzie : > This would be too early for people on the West Coast of the United States by > about three hours. > > No time will be satisfactory for all people who work on this project. > > What I feel is necessary at this point is to collect who lives in what time > zone so that we incovience as few people as possible. > > Since this would be Saturday in Asia, this time may work for the majority of > the people on this list. > > Also, will there be a transcript of the discussion and where will it be > placed since this has a major impact on the functionality of the Applications > Database. > > James McKenzie > > I have made a wiki on winehq with an agenda which will be updated with the results (and maybe transcript?) of the conversation. http://wiki.winehq.org/AppDBUpgrades
Re: Fixing AppDB once and for all
Zachary Goldberg >Sent: Feb 3, 2009 10:44 AM >To: Wine Devel >Cc: Jeremy Newman >Subject: Fixing AppDB once and for all > >All, >Lets (arbitrarily) set a time for the chat at: > >When: 11PM UTC (6PM EST) 2/6/09 (Friday) >Where: #winehackers > This would be too early for people on the West Coast of the United States by about three hours. No time will be satisfactory for all people who work on this project. What I feel is necessary at this point is to collect who lives in what time zone so that we incovience as few people as possible. Since this would be Saturday in Asia, this time may work for the majority of the people on this list. Also, will there be a transcript of the discussion and where will it be placed since this has a major impact on the functionality of the Applications Database. James McKenzie
Fixing AppDB once and for all
All, So it seems to be almost every other day now when somebody mentions how broken the appdb rating system is. This "broken-ness" has had several high level discussions on Wine-Devel. There have also been many, many proposed solutions to this problem. I do not wish to discuss these problems or these solutions in this thread. It is time something was done about this. By done I mean agreed upon (probably the harder part) then implemented in code and published to the winehq server(s). I'de like to arrange an IRC discussion for all those interested in finalizing an attack plan, and then assigning the responsibility of doing it to somebody who is capable and has the time (perhaps myself). Lets (arbitrarily) set a time for the chat at: When: 11PM UTC (6PM EST) 2/6/09 (Friday) Where: #winehackers If this arbitrary time seems to be poorly chosen for a large number of people then please propose an alternative well in advance so all are aware of it. --Zach
