Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Rosanne DiMesio]

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 10:43:00 +0200
Gert van den Berg  wrote:

 
> It might be a good idea to try and get most potential bug reports
> discussed on the forum first?
> 
That's what I meant when I suggested adding a line above the comment box (or 
anywhere on the page that seems suitable). Some users come straight to bugzilla 
from a Google search, and don't even know about the forum, FAQ, etc. It's true 
some people don't read, but that's not a reason not to put clearer instructions 
for people who do.


-- 
Rosanne DiMesio 

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Gert van den Berg]

On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:27, David Gerard  wrote:
> You are going to get noise. Stopping people reporting bugs is probably
> not the answer. It's hard enough to get bug reports out of people
> already.

A "Where do I" (of "What do I do when...") section in the FAQ
might help in some cases? (with a link near the bug comment box)

Some suggested sub-questions:
"Have trouble applying a bug"
"Have trouble compiling Wine"
"Have problems with PlayOnLinux"
"Tested an application and it doesn't work"
"MY application crashes"

It might be a good idea to try and get most potential bug reports
discussed on the forum first?

A link to the "patch problems" question one near the attachment list
might work as well.

Regexp searches with "You seem to be doing something bad (see _here_),
are you sure you want to post this comment?" confirmation for dodgy
comments might help pointing users in the right direction in the most
obvious cases.. (and it won't keep comments from being posted by the
persistent/ in case of false positives...)

Gert

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[David Gerard]

On 17 July 2010 03:56, James McKenzie  wrote:

> Does this sound doable and is it permissible?  I don't want folks walking
> away because they cannot post, but if they are posting garbage it doesn't
> help us.


It depends also on the balance you want between

(a) the possibility of a bad comment on Bugzilla
(b) lots of people being unable to post their bugs.

(b) will get the bug count down nicely, but rather misses the point of
having a bug tracker.

You are going to get noise. Stopping people reporting bugs is probably
not the answer. It's hard enough to get bug reports out of people
already.


- d.

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[James McKenzie]

Michael Stefaniuc wrote:

Austin English wrote:
  

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 9:30 PM, James McKenzie
 wrote:


Rosanne DiMesio wrote:
  

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 17:08:30 +0200
Gert van den Berg  wrote:




On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 16:23, James Mckenzie
 wrote:

  

Rosanne and you have a good point, but I would restrict it the limit to
four lines.  You should be able to describe a valid bug in that space.
 Anything more, and it becomes an attachement.



4 lines is horribly short... Especially for posting instructions to
reproduce problems, an overview of your system configuration, etc...


  

I agree. I've often exceeded 4 lines in comments.




I see your point.  However, should it not be sufficient to state a problem
in ten lines or less?  This prevents pasting lengthy logs, statements, etc.
in bugzilla?  I'll go with that number then.
  

I've often seen 10 exceeded as well. Like earlier discussed, a regex
for fixme/err/etc. would be more useful.


What Austin says. E.g. a git bisect result is at minimum 9 lines long,
with more than 1 line of changelog it gets longer. And we do want those
pasted into the comment and not attached.

  
Again, I agree.  What method do we want to use to prevent the post that 
started this long conversation, that is the posting of a 'broken' patch 
sequence? 

I would say look for "what file to patch" or the actual wording used by 
the patch program to state I cannot find the file to patch.


As to the catching of 'fixme/error/trace/etc. I'm for this as well using 
regex.  Capture it and post a warning.  Flag the account.  Give a set 
number of warnings in a certain time period.  Then lock the account.   
The poster will have to ask permission to be allowed to post again.


Does this sound doable and is it permissible?  I don't want folks 
walking away because they cannot post, but if they are posting garbage 
it doesn't help us.  Also, give them a posting link if they cannot, for 
some reason, add attachments.  Sort of like a bugzilla for the Bugzilla 
thing.  If something is broken with Bugzilla we certainly should be 
interested.


James McKenzie

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Wolfram Sang]

> Very BAD:
> -
> Changelog: This fixes bug #4711
> 
> BAD:
> 
> Changelog: Change the handling of flags X Y Z because this fixes bug #4711
> 
> OK:
> ---
> Changelog: Change a corner case in the handling of flags X Y Z (with tests).
> This resolve the issue from bug #4711.
> 
> 
> The bug number is *only* additional information. It isn't the 
> justification for a patch and definitely not the sole changelog.

ACK. This was my rationale until two hours ago ;)

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Michael Stefaniuc]

On 07/16/2010 03:50 PM, Dan Kegel wrote:

So it boils down to disagreements about two things:

- mentioning a bug number when posting a patch
I think this is a misunderstanding. There are different ways of adding 
the bug number when posting a patch:


Very BAD:
-
Changelog: This fixes bug #4711

BAD:

Changelog: Change the handling of flags X Y Z because this fixes bug #4711

OK:
---
Changelog: Change a corner case in the handling of flags X Y Z (with tests).
   This resolve the issue from bug #4711.


The bug number is *only* additional information. It isn't the 
justification for a patch and definitely not the sole changelog.


bye
michael

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Henri Verbeet]

On 16 July 2010 16:31, Dan Kegel  wrote:
> Without actual examples, I can't see what you're objecting to.
There are three specific examples in this thread, two of those were
provided by yourself, one was by me. If you read carefully you can
probably find them. I also explicitly spelled the issue out three
times. I think that should be enough for you to be able to figure it
out. I'd suggest to take all this as valuable advice, but you're of
course also free to ignore it.

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Dan Kegel]

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 7:08 AM, Henri Verbeet  wrote:
> No, you're mistaking specific instances for the larger issue there.
> What it boils down to is giving bad advice from a perceived position
> of authority. Please don't make me search through the archives to find
> every single specific instance.

Without actual examples, I can't see what you're objecting to.
- Dan

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[James Mckenzie]

Luke Benstead  wrote:
>Sent: Jul 16, 2010 7:18 AM
>To: Henri Verbeet 
>Cc: wine-devel@winehq.org, Dan Kegel 
>Subject: Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla
>
>> How do frequent wine committers, and especially Alexandre, feel about
>> > these two issues?
>> I'd say Alexandre's opinion is pretty clear, as always:
>> http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2010-February/081744.html.
>>
>>
>That's doesn't settle this at all, Alexandre is almost certainly referring
>to the bug number in the patch itself there, rather than the subject line.

Actually, during the first part of the Wine 1.2 rc set, it was suggested to put 
the bug number somewhere in either the changelog or in the subject line.  What 
I seen in the message is that AJ wanted something more meaningful in the code 
than just "testing for bug ".  The comment could become part of the Wine 
code base and is not clear.

James McKenzie

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Luke Benstead]

> How do frequent wine committers, and especially Alexandre, feel about
> > these two issues?
> I'd say Alexandre's opinion is pretty clear, as always:
> http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2010-February/081744.html.
>
>
That's doesn't settle this at all, Alexandre is almost certainly referring
to the bug number in the patch itself there, rather than the subject line.

Luke.

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Henri Verbeet]

On 16 July 2010 15:50, Dan Kegel  wrote:
> So it boils down to disagreements about two things:
>
> - mentioning a bug number when posting a patch
>
> - turning spammy FIXMEs into oneshots
>
No, you're mistaking specific instances for the larger issue there.
What it boils down to is giving bad advice from a perceived position
of authority. Please don't make me search through the archives to find
every single specific instance.

> These both seem like things reasonable developers could disagree about.
> (Indeed, Roderick recently posted a patch with a bug number in the subject 
> line,
> http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-patches/2010-March/086152.html )
>
> How do frequent wine committers, and especially Alexandre, feel about
> these two issues?
I'd say Alexandre's opinion is pretty clear, as always:
http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2010-February/081744.html.

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Dan Kegel]

So it boils down to disagreements about two things:

- mentioning a bug number when posting a patch

- turning spammy FIXMEs into oneshots

These both seem like things reasonable developers could disagree about.
(Indeed, Roderick recently posted a patch with a bug number in the subject line,
http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-patches/2010-March/086152.html )

How do frequent wine committers, and especially Alexandre, feel about
these two issues?
- Dan

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Henri Verbeet]

On 16 July 2010 14:10, Wolfram Sang  wrote:
> I am confused. Following this list only, I so far did not notice someone
> saying "don't tell the bug number" (ok, might be my fault), but a few
> times asking the question "does this patch fix an actual" bug. Also,
> SubmittingPatches says:
>
> ===
>
> ...
> Include a description
> ...
> If you're working on a bug in bugzilla, mention the bug number, and
> consider filing a bug if none exists.
>
> ===
>
I'd say that's misinformation. As for "Does this patch fix an actual
bug?", I could see how that may confuse someone, but you should
generally interpret that as "Does this fix a real issue in the code.",
or "Are there any real applications that care about this.", as opposed
to the patch making a style change, changing something that
applications don't care about in practice, or only fixing a perceived
bug because the patch author simply misunderstood the original code.
An associated bug in bugzilla is not required for patches, and if the
patch is good and gets applied it would only serve to spam wine-bugs,
which is already a fairly high-volume list these days. I suppose you
could open a bug if the patch gets rejected and the issue turns out to
be too hard to fix though.

> Maybe this is a misunderstanding of terminology? 'commit log' is for me
> the combination of the single-line 'header' plus the 'description', which
> can be multiple paragraphs. (and is usually dropped when patches are
> imported to the official repo. Why is that BTW?) I would agree, that the
> bug number should not be in the header, but having it as additional
> information besides the regular description should not really hurt?
>
If parts of the description are dropped, that's usually because
they're considered superfluous. E.g., should be obvious from the patch
itself, should be obvious for someone familiar with the code, etc. It
should be pretty rare for a patch to need more than a couple of lines
as a description. It's of course possibly that the issue you're fixing
is really subtle / tricky, but in that case it probably makes more
sense to document that in a comment directly in the code. Chances are
though that if your patch *needs* a long description it's because it's
trying to do too much at once, or tries to do it in a way that's too
complicated.

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Wolfram Sang]

> For reference, there are two basic reasons for not referring to
> bugzilla when sending patches, in the commit log or otherwise. The
> first one is that patches should stand on their own. If the bug
> contains important information that's relevant to the patch, that
> should be included directly in the commit log. If it doesn't, well,
> the reference it just redundant. The other reason is that it's not
> unlikely that the commit log will outlive bugzilla. I.e., you can't
> depend on bugzilla always being there. That's essentially the same
> reason as for not including hyperlinks in comments, although at least
> the source code can easily be changed, while for the commit log that
> would be a serious pain.

I am confused. Following this list only, I so far did not notice someone
saying "don't tell the bug number" (ok, might be my fault), but a few
times asking the question "does this patch fix an actual" bug. Also,
SubmittingPatches says:

===

...
Include a description
...
If you're working on a bug in bugzilla, mention the bug number, and
consider filing a bug if none exists.

===

Maybe this is a misunderstanding of terminology? 'commit log' is for me
the combination of the single-line 'header' plus the 'description', which
can be multiple paragraphs. (and is usually dropped when patches are
imported to the official repo. Why is that BTW?) I would agree, that the
bug number should not be in the header, but having it as additional
information besides the regular description should not really hurt?

Kind regards,

   Wolfram

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Henri Verbeet]

On 16 July 2010 12:26, Luke Benstead  wrote:
> Probably not my place to wade in here, but that's not true, he didn't
> mention the commit log:
>
> "Be sure to mention in the post that it fixes
>
> http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21233";
>
> I'm pretty sure he meant in the email when he emails wine-patches rather
> than in the commit log.
>
Sure. Practically speaking there's no real distinction between those
though, especially not if you're using "git send-email" (recommended)
to send your patches.

For reference, there are two basic reasons for not referring to
bugzilla when sending patches, in the commit log or otherwise. The
first one is that patches should stand on their own. If the bug
contains important information that's relevant to the patch, that
should be included directly in the commit log. If it doesn't, well,
the reference it just redundant. The other reason is that it's not
unlikely that the commit log will outlive bugzilla. I.e., you can't
depend on bugzilla always being there. That's essentially the same
reason as for not including hyperlinks in comments, although at least
the source code can easily be changed, while for the commit log that
would be a serious pain.

> I've got to say Henri, I think you are being a little unfair here. Yes,
> possibly Dan has given flawed advice in the past, but it's nothing that a
> private email or chat on IRC wouldn't have solved.
>
> Launching into a tirade against him publically isn't helping anything, all
> these instances are Dan trying to help out, quite obviously not to be
> "insidious" or to harm the project.
>
"Insidious" doesn't imply intention, nor did I claim intention
anywhere else. I'm sure Dan (like others) is just trying to help
people get their patches committed. But then, I don't think Vitaliy is
thinking "Let's have some fun being rude to people in bugzilla"
either. That doesn't change the fact that I *do* think both of those
hurt the project, or at best just irritate people. As for "tirade", I
think the discussion has been fairly civil so far, and I also think
wine-devel is the correct place for issues like these.

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Luke Benstead]

> > - Misha; I told him tests were ok to submit during a code freeze; this is
> true,
> > given that Alexandre accepted tests as last as last Friday.  I should
> have
> > told him that tests which add stubs probably aren't ok, but he learned
> > that as soon as he submitted.
> > http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2010-June/084632.html
> > so that seems fine.
> >
> From the look of things Misha will be ok, but I imagine he would have
> been anyway.
>
> But there are also cases like e.g.
> http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21233#c8 where you completely
> miss the real issues in the patch, and instead recommend referring to
> a bug number in the commit log,
>

Probably not my place to wade in here, but that's not true, he didn't
mention the commit log:

"Be sure to mention in the post that it fixes

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21233";



I'm pretty sure he meant in the email when he emails wine-patches rather
than in the commit log.

I've got to say Henri, I think you are being a little unfair here. Yes,
possibly Dan has given flawed advice in the past, but it's nothing that a
private email or chat on IRC wouldn't have solved.

Launching into a tirade against him publically isn't helping anything, all
these instances are Dan trying to help out, quite obviously not to be
"insidious" or to harm the project.

Luke.

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Henri Verbeet]

On 15 July 2010 17:45, Dan Kegel  wrote:
> I'm listening.  Can you give some examples of problems I've caused?
> Candidates include
>
> - the FIXME_ONCE guy; I think you and I are giving him the same advice;
> http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2010-July/085069.html
> so that seems fine.
>
As you noted in your other mail, the problem with what you're telling
him is mostly that you're telling him to work on a bug like 15435 at
all. You might as well have told him to work on "fixing" coding style
or naming conventions.

> - Misha; I told him tests were ok to submit during a code freeze; this is 
> true,
> given that Alexandre accepted tests as last as last Friday.  I should have
> told him that tests which add stubs probably aren't ok, but he learned
> that as soon as he submitted.
> http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2010-June/084632.html
> so that seems fine.
>
From the look of things Misha will be ok, but I imagine he would have
been anyway.

But there are also cases like e.g.
http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21233#c8 where you completely
miss the real issues in the patch, and instead recommend referring to
a bug number in the commit log, if not directly putting in a link.
Alexandre has told people several times in the past not to do that,
and I believe even to you yourself. Now it turns out Mikko didn't do
that, but listening to that advice would have hurt that patch more
than it would have helped.

This is of course not a new thing, you've been doing that for at least
as long as I've been contributing patches, but the difference is that
previously you didn't give a damn about Direct3D or D3DX, focusing on
real, useful applications and associated APIs instead. That means this
was mostly Alexandre's problem, and whoever happened to be the
relevant module maintainer, if any. Alexandre and most other Wine
developers are much nicer people than me, and Alexandre enjoys
rejecting patches anyway. But *I* care about Wine's Direct3D, so I'm
saying something about it.

> Would you really prefer I retire from Wine?
I haven't given that much thought, mostly because I don't think it's
an option that has a realistic chance of happening, either way. More
importantly, the "really" there is misleading, I didn't mention or ask
for that. What I *would* like to ask is that you don't misrepresent
yourself as somehow speaking for the Wine project, or being an
experienced Wine developer. And just so it's clear, it's perfectly
fine that not everyone is an active developer. Austin and Wylda for
example do lots of useful work in bugzilla, without primarily being
developers. But if you're giving people development advice, or are
trying to influence development direction, you'd better make sure that
you actually know what you're talking about. (And no, you're certainly
not the only person giving questionable development advice either. I'm
mostly pointing this out because you started pointing fingers.)

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Michael Stefaniuc]

Austin English wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 9:30 PM, James McKenzie
>  wrote:
>> Rosanne DiMesio wrote:
>>> On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 17:08:30 +0200
>>> Gert van den Berg  wrote:
>>>
>>>
 On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 16:23, James Mckenzie
  wrote:

> Rosanne and you have a good point, but I would restrict it the limit to
> four lines.  You should be able to describe a valid bug in that space.
>  Anything more, and it becomes an attachement.
>
 4 lines is horribly short... Especially for posting instructions to
 reproduce problems, an overview of your system configuration, etc...


>>> I agree. I've often exceeded 4 lines in comments.
>>>
>>>
>> I see your point.  However, should it not be sufficient to state a problem
>> in ten lines or less?  This prevents pasting lengthy logs, statements, etc.
>> in bugzilla?  I'll go with that number then.
> 
> I've often seen 10 exceeded as well. Like earlier discussed, a regex
> for fixme/err/etc. would be more useful.
What Austin says. E.g. a git bisect result is at minimum 9 lines long,
with more than 1 line of changelog it gets longer. And we do want those
pasted into the comment and not attached.

bye
michael

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Austin English]

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 9:30 PM, James McKenzie
 wrote:
> Rosanne DiMesio wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 17:08:30 +0200
>> Gert van den Berg  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 16:23, James Mckenzie
>>>  wrote:
>>>

 Rosanne and you have a good point, but I would restrict it the limit to
 four lines.  You should be able to describe a valid bug in that space.
  Anything more, and it becomes an attachement.

>>>
>>> 4 lines is horribly short... Especially for posting instructions to
>>> reproduce problems, an overview of your system configuration, etc...
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I agree. I've often exceeded 4 lines in comments.
>>
>>
>
> I see your point.  However, should it not be sufficient to state a problem
> in ten lines or less?  This prevents pasting lengthy logs, statements, etc.
> in bugzilla?  I'll go with that number then.

I've often seen 10 exceeded as well. Like earlier discussed, a regex
for fixme/err/etc. would be more useful.

-- 
-Austin

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[James McKenzie]

Rosanne DiMesio wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 17:08:30 +0200
Gert van den Berg  wrote:

  

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 16:23, James Mckenzie
 wrote:


Rosanne and you have a good point, but I would restrict it the limit to four 
lines.  You should be able to describe a valid bug in that space.  Anything 
more, and it becomes an attachement.
  

4 lines is horribly short... Especially for posting instructions to
reproduce problems, an overview of your system configuration, etc...


I agree. I've often exceeded 4 lines in comments.  



  
I see your point.  However, should it not be sufficient to state a 
problem in ten lines or less?  This prevents pasting lengthy logs, 
statements, etc. in bugzilla?  I'll go with that number then.


James McKenzie

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Dmitry Timoshkov]

James Mckenzie  wrote:

> On that vein of thought, why don't we have a code standard page?  I've been
> asking this question and maybe this should be my next area of concern after
> the release of Wine 1.2 and the reinput of my patches.  This way, I can use
> my 'years of expertise' and what I've learned about this project as far as
> coding practices.  I don't want to wait on AJ to do this.

This doesn't belong to you since you don't send patches anyway and just doing
advices as Henri pointed out despite claming "years of expertise", but people
who do can always follow basic rule from 
http://wiki.winehq.org/SubmittingPatches:
"Try to imitate wine-patches style" which also can be used for coding style.

-- 
Dmitry.

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Dan Kegel]

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 8:45 AM, Dan Kegel  wrote:
> - the FIXME_ONCE guy; I think you and I are giving him the same advice;
> http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2010-July/085069.html
> so that seems fine.

Aha.  This is the thread that probably bothered you:
http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2010-June/084309.html
(and here's where you explained your position:
http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2010-July/085070.html )

The advice I gave him was

> I'd suggest starting by looking at
> http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15435
> "Wine logs too verbose, quieter fixme's needed"
> and sending in a patch to make one of the overly-verbose
> fixme's a bit quieter.  ...
>> ... [ok, can I change FIXME itself?]
> changing FIXME itself might be going a
> bit too far during the current code freeze.
> You could try adding a FIXME_ONCE macro, though, and use it to quiet
> some particular message that really gets in the way of (i.e. slows down)
> a real application.

I agree that Max's patches and behavior so far haven't been
up to snuff, but I'm trying to guide him towards the light in
private email (e.g. "The thing to do is to wait until
after wine-1.2 is released next week, and then
submit your original patch plus a few (say, three)
patches to fix existing ad hoc fixme-once instances.
Your goal should be to *not* change behavior of wine
with this set of patches, but rather make the code more
readable and simple.")

(And later, people who are experts at the various DLLs
can go look at the FIXME_ONCEs, and deal with
the underlying problem properly.)

I agree that any automated way of finding problems, be it
compiler warnings, valgrind warnings, or log messages,
tends to attract people who try to "fix" them without understanding
the underlying issues, with sometimes terrible results,
and that one should guard against this and discourage
newbies from changing things they don't actually understand.
- Dan

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[André Hentschel]

Am 15.07.2010 18:29, schrieb James Mckenzie:
> On that vein of thought, why don't we have a code standard page?  I've been 
> asking this question and maybe this should be my next area of concern after 
> the release of Wine 1.2 and the reinput of my patches.  This way, I can use 
> my 'years of expertise' and what I've learned about this project as far as 
> coding practices.  I don't want to wait on AJ to do this.
> 
> James McKenzie

http://wiki.jswindle.com tries to write some Wine coding standards, its somehow 
successful but too less people know about.
e.g. i just found that page because he quoted me :)


-- 

Best Regards, André Hentschel

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Rosanne DiMesio]

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 17:08:30 +0200
Gert van den Berg  wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 16:23, James Mckenzie
>  wrote:
> > Rosanne and you have a good point, but I would restrict it the limit to 
> > four lines.  You should be able to describe a valid bug in that space.  
> > Anything more, and it becomes an attachement.
> 
> 4 lines is horribly short... Especially for posting instructions to
> reproduce problems, an overview of your system configuration, etc...
> 
I agree. I've often exceeded 4 lines in comments.  


-- 
Rosanne DiMesio 

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[James Mckenzie]

Henri Verbeet  wrote:
>
>On 14 July 2010 16:26, Dan Kegel  wrote:
>> If you ask me,
>> http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6971#c371
>> is more objectionable, because it shows the Wine
>> community to be ill-mannered and hostile to newbies.
>Sure, it could have been worded more carefully, but I don't buy the
>"taints us all" theory.
>
>However, if we're talking about being harmful to the project, I think
>it's far more insidious and actively harmful to pretend being an
>active / respected Wine developer and giving potential new developers
>bad advice from that position. Because what happens is that those
>people take that advice in good faith, start writing patches, and
>perhaps even develop some habits based on it. But when those patches
>then hit wine-patches and get shot down during review, it's the
>reviewers that get blamed for being "picky" or "harsh", while in some
>cases the entire premise on which those patches are based is simply
>wrong. I think that does far more harm to new developers than "being
>mean to someone on the internet".
>
>Of course with Wine being an open project there's not a whole lot we
>can do about people saying whatever they like, except perhaps teaching
>potential new developers about things like "git shortlog -s -n
>--since={5year}".
>
On that vein of thought, why don't we have a code standard page?  I've been 
asking this question and maybe this should be my next area of concern after the 
release of Wine 1.2 and the reinput of my patches.  This way, I can use my 
'years of expertise' and what I've learned about this project as far as coding 
practices.  I don't want to wait on AJ to do this.

James McKenzie

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Rosanne DiMesio]

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 07:09:22 -0700
Dan Kegel  wrote:

> 
> As you point out, people don't read... it might be more useful to
> put a length limit check so that posting a long comment requires
> privileges.  Maybe that could be done as simply as "if this is user's
> first bug, don't let him post more than ten lines".
> 
It's not just a question of length, but of inappropriate content. The long 
inappropriate comments are more annoying, but the short ones ("I'm a newbie. 
How do I apply this patch?") don't belong in bug reports either. 


-- 
Rosanne DiMesio 

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Dan Kegel]

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 7:45 AM, Henri Verbeet  wrote:
> However, if we're talking about being harmful to the project, I think
> it's far more insidious and actively harmful to pretend being an
> active / respected Wine developer and giving potential new developers
> bad advice from that position. Because what happens is that those
> people take that advice in good faith, start writing patches, and
> perhaps even develop some habits based on it. But when those patches
> then hit wine-patches and get shot down during review, it's the
> reviewers that get blamed for being "picky" or "harsh", while in some
> cases the entire premise on which those patches are based is simply
> wrong. I think that does far more harm to new developers than "being
> mean to someone on the internet".

I'm listening.  Can you give some examples of problems I've caused?
Candidates include

- the FIXME_ONCE guy; I think you and I are giving him the same advice;
http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2010-July/085069.html
so that seems fine.

- Misha; I told him tests were ok to submit during a code freeze; this is true,
given that Alexandre accepted tests as last as last Friday.  I should have
told him that tests which add stubs probably aren't ok, but he learned
that as soon as he submitted.
http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2010-June/084632.html
so that seems fine.

Would you really prefer I retire from Wine?
- Dan

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Gert van den Berg]

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 16:23, James Mckenzie
 wrote:
> Rosanne and you have a good point, but I would restrict it the limit to four 
> lines.  You should be able to describe a valid bug in that space.  Anything 
> more, and it becomes an attachement.

4 lines is horribly short... Especially for posting instructions to
reproduce problems, an overview of your system configuration, etc...

If bugzilla supports word-based filtering, looking for words commonly
present in logs and not present in most posts ("fixme:"?) to try and
prevent users from posting logs as comments... (Quoting parts of a log
might be useful at times?)

Gert

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Henri Verbeet]

On 14 July 2010 16:26, Dan Kegel  wrote:
> If you ask me,
> http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6971#c371
> is more objectionable, because it shows the Wine
> community to be ill-mannered and hostile to newbies.
Sure, it could have been worded more carefully, but I don't buy the
"taints us all" theory.

However, if we're talking about being harmful to the project, I think
it's far more insidious and actively harmful to pretend being an
active / respected Wine developer and giving potential new developers
bad advice from that position. Because what happens is that those
people take that advice in good faith, start writing patches, and
perhaps even develop some habits based on it. But when those patches
then hit wine-patches and get shot down during review, it's the
reviewers that get blamed for being "picky" or "harsh", while in some
cases the entire premise on which those patches are based is simply
wrong. I think that does far more harm to new developers than "being
mean to someone on the internet".

Of course with Wine being an open project there's not a whole lot we
can do about people saying whatever they like, except perhaps teaching
potential new developers about things like "git shortlog -s -n
--since={5year}".

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[James Mckenzie]

>> Would it be possible to add a line to the text above the comment entry box
>> (by the "do not paste logs" warning) telling people more explicitly what 
>> sorts
>> of comments are appropriate, and directing them to the forum for user 
>> support?
>> Yes, I know some people will ignore it anyway, but it might help cut down on 
>> the
>> noise.
>
>As you point out, people don't read... it might be more useful to
>put a length limit check so that posting a long comment requires
>privileges.  Maybe that could be done as simply as "if this is user's
>first bug, don't let him post more than ten lines".
>
Dan:

Rosanne and you have a good point, but I would restrict it the limit to four 
lines.  You should be able to describe a valid bug in that space.  Anything 
more, and it becomes an attachement.

This would take care of the log file that was dropped in one bug and the 'I 
can't figure this out so here's five screenshots' in another.

+1 to the limit for my vote.

James McKenzie

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Dan Kegel]

Rosanne wrote:
> A lot of new users mistake bugzilla for a support forum, and bug reports are
> littered with comments that don't belong there.

Yes, that's a problem.

> Would it be possible to add a line to the text above the comment entry box
> (by the "do not paste logs" warning) telling people more explicitly what sorts
> of comments are appropriate, and directing them to the forum for user support?
> Yes, I know some people will ignore it anyway, but it might help cut down on 
> the noise.

As you point out, people don't read... it might be more useful to
put a length limit check so that posting a long comment requires
privileges.  Maybe that could be done as simply as "if this is user's
first bug, don't let him post more than ten lines".

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Rosanne DiMesio]

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 07:26:40 -0700
Dan Kegel  wrote:

> I only see one post from him ever, and he was *trying* to be
> helpful.   Everybody should get a few chances.  A warning
> should suffice.
> 
Dan,

A lot of new users mistake bugzilla for a support forum, and bug reports are 
littered with comments that don't belong there. Would it be possible to add a 
line to the text above the comment entry box (by the "do not paste logs" 
warning) telling people more explicitly what sorts of comments are appropriate, 
and directing them to the forum for user support?  Yes, I know some people will 
ignore it anyway, but it might help cut down on the noise.

-- 
Rosanne DiMesio 

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[André Hentschel]

Am 14.07.2010 16:26, schrieb Dan Kegel:
> I only see one post from him ever, and he was *trying* to be
> helpful.   Everybody should get a few chances.  A warning
> should suffice.
> 
> If you ask me,
> http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6971#c371
> is more objectionable, because it shows the Wine
> community to be ill-mannered and hostile to newbies.
> - Dan
+1, google has a nice video to that topic:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645#


-- 

Best Regards, André Hentschel

re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Dan Kegel]

I only see one post from him ever, and he was *trying* to be
helpful.   Everybody should get a few chances.  A warning
should suffice.

If you ask me,
http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6971#c371
is more objectionable, because it shows the Wine
community to be ill-mannered and hostile to newbies.
- Dan

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[James Mckenzie]

Austin English  wrote:
>Sent: Jul 13, 2010 10:57 PM
>To: Vitaliy Margolen 
>Cc: Wine Develop , matthewdchish...@gmail.com
>Subject: Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla
>
>On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 11:12 PM, Vitaliy Margolen
> wrote:
>> Please remove Matt Chisholm  from bugazilla
>> and/or block him from posting. Also please remove this post:
>> http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6971#c370
>>
>> Vitaliy.
>
>(Repeating my comment from the bug):
>
>While I agree that comment doesn't belong on this bug, I see no reason
>why his account should be removed. A warning is in order, not a ban.
>
+1.  A friendly reminder that bugzilla is for bug reports is in order.  BTW, 
that kind of post is allowed in some project's bug reporting areas.

James McKenzie

Re: Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Austin English]

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 11:12 PM, Vitaliy Margolen
 wrote:
> Please remove Matt Chisholm  from bugazilla
> and/or block him from posting. Also please remove this post:
> http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6971#c370
>
> Vitaliy.

(Repeating my comment from the bug):

While I agree that comment doesn't belong on this bug, I see no reason
why his account should be removed. A warning is in order, not a ban.

-- 
-Austin

Please remove / block user from bugzilla

[Vitaliy Margolen]

Please remove Matt Chisholm  from bugazilla
and/or block him from posting. Also please remove this post:
http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6971#c370

Vitaliy.