Re: Code quality (was Re: comctl32: Fix invalid syntax)
Am Samstag, 9. Februar 2008 02:13:34 schrieb L. Rahyen:
> On Friday February 8 2008 04:41:28 Bang Jun-young wrote:
> > That's the main reason why Wine keeps crashing every time I give it a
> > try with my Windows apps.
> > ...
> > I see something fundamentally wrong with development process.
>
> I think that current development process isn't a problem at all. In fact
> AJ is very good at what he is doing!
> As far as I understand your patch ("comctl32: Fix invalid syntax.") was
> rejected just because you forgot to add proper (descriptive) changelog
> entry. What is the real problem is the lack of testers (who report
> regressions and bugs) and developers. This is why WINE still has a lot of
> bugs, regressions are quite common thing to happen, etc. To fix this, more
> people should read wine-patches and test patches before they are committed,
> more people should write bug reports, more people should be involved in the
> development, and so on. Unfortunately, not all people have enough time for
> such tasks. However, WINE is pretty usable today.
I'd say we need more tests. Any patch that breaks a test from our testsuite
when AJ runs them prior to committing is rejected
Re: Code quality (was Re: comctl32: Fix invalid syntax)
On Friday February 8 2008 04:41:28 Bang Jun-young wrote:
> That's the main reason why Wine keeps crashing every time I give it a
> try with my Windows apps.
> ...
> I see something fundamentally wrong with development process.
I think that current development process isn't a problem at all. In
fact AJ
is very good at what he is doing!
As far as I understand your patch ("comctl32: Fix invalid syntax.") was
rejected just because you forgot to add proper (descriptive) changelog entry.
What is the real problem is the lack of testers (who report regressions
and
bugs) and developers. This is why WINE still has a lot of bugs, regressions
are quite common thing to happen, etc. To fix this, more people should read
wine-patches and test patches before they are committed, more people should
write bug reports, more people should be involved in the development, and so
on. Unfortunately, not all people have enough time for such tasks.
However, WINE is pretty usable today.
> Since 1993, Wine has never gotten to the
> point where everybody could rely on it for his daily work. It has as
> awfully many bugs as Win95.
WINE can work reliably even with very complex programs (such as
Photoshop
CS - I use it pretty often). And if you don't see BIG improvement in last
years you either tried very few Windows programs or you are very unlucky...
In my practice WINE run most of the programs I try (well, I didn't
tried
thousands of Windows programs and there is no "hardcore" gamers in my family
so my statistic may be biased). In fact, it is so good that I typically can
rely on it to run any program I'm downloading from the Internet (success
rate for me is more than 85% for "small" and "average" programs/games
downloadable for free from the Internet). And if Windows program(s) work
correctly on WINE, cases of "random" crashes are very rare. They (generally)
do exist but most of Windows programs aren't affected by such bugs - much
more often you find repeatable crashes after specific sequence(s) of steps.
And your statement "Wine has never gotten to the point where everybody
could
rely on it for his daily work" is strange. In fact it is true for Windows too
(Windows never gotten to the point where everybody could rely on it for his
daily work). Maybe you just mean that WINE doesn't work well for you and some
(or maybe even most) other people? But working well for some people or for
nobody is very different things... There is a lot of people who use WINE for
their daily tasks.
For example, I and whole my family use Linux and WINE on daily basis
(because
of dependency on some Windows software and Windows games). There is no
Windows installed on our computers (only I have Windows XP in VMWare for my
very specific purposes to run Autodesk products).
In my practice WINE and Linux are absolutely stable (if no bugs in WINE
triggered by the program of course). In fact, I have trading station for
Windows working 24 hours per day on my Linux server with WINE (if trading
station fail or crash, I potentially can lose real money). And for this
purpose (which by definition requires high stability) WINE+Linux works
MUCH better than Windows XP.
And your comparison of WINE with Windows 95 isn't true at all. Did you
actually ever tried to use Windows 95? It will fail MUCH more often than
WINE, and WINE can run more Windows programs than Windows 95 (I have it in
VMWare so I really tested this with some programs year ago or so, "just for
fun"). Even Windows 98 cannot run many important programs such as Photoshop
(it require at least Windows 2000). And Windows 95/98 have a LOT of "random"
crashes; WINE is much better - for many programs it can work for months 24
hours per day without problems, and even if it crashes in some cases, other
programs aren't affected (especially if they are launched from different
prefix).
Everything above is my personal experience, and for some users it may
be
worse. But for me, WINE work good enough for daily use, even for very
important applications. So you can consider my story as
yet-another-success-story-of-using-WINE.
Obviously, this doesn't mean that WINE is good enough for everyone...
But at
least it is good enough for me, my family and some of my friends. There is
some minor problems (for example, my brother have some games that don't work
on WINE at all but he doesn't care very much about this) so WINE isn't
perfect of course... But I just want to say that it is good enough for daily
work and gaming at least for some people, and a lot of Windows software is
usable on Linux with WINE.
Personally, I think that AJ and all other WINE developers are doing
very
great and important work! Big thanks to all of them...
Re: Code quality (was Re: comctl32: Fix invalid syntax)
hi base, >> If winehq.org is Alexandre's own property, this is something >> fundametally wrong again. Well.. then 'something' must be wrong with the linux kernel aswell.. how comes noone forked? hmmm.. > You may try to learn how things work in the Wine project by reading > the following thread: > http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2006-September/050915.html Although time consuming, it was rather a good read. While digesting the follow up 'governance ideas' thread I had a little idea that might help, though I doubt the problems discussed at that time are still that relevant. IMHO most of the wine-patches-black-hole problem is complexity of submitted patches, making them hard to review and rather lead to those patches being silently skipped in favor of the infinitly queuing later patches. One simple fix for this would be to recommend a maximum size for diffs on the developer wiki (additionally to the recommendation to focus on a small context per patch) and set up a wine-patches auto-reply for patches beyond that size, warning the submitter that because of sheer size (=complexity), the patch is likely to be skipped because of merge pressure of the following patches. That way, new contributors would get another visible warning to submit patches that are easier to review. Again, I can't estimate how much of an issue this is atm. I see a lot of patches commit or discussed on -devel, so it might not be at all. Anyways.. Another thing: after my important exam in march, I will probably try setting up a drupal site and see how it can be merged/ integrated with the wineforum, mailing lists and bugzilla.. there are some cool modules and regexp power waiting to be explored :) Last note: Jesse's DIB engine stuff, my work on printing aswell as Detlef's progress on sanitizing the spooler will hopefully show some results, too. Jesse I'll discuss that stuff with you next month be sure to be ready for some wine-patches resubmit cycles ;D regards, marcel. -- "Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal." -- Henry Ford (1863-1947) Change the world! Vote revolution: http://hfopi.org/vote-future
Re: Code quality (was Re: comctl32: Fix invalid syntax)
On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Bang Jun-young wrote: [...] > In fact, this is a well known mistake many newbie Win32 developers > make (and fix in minutes). It shouldn't have been in the tree in the > first place if he actually have read the patch. News flash!!! You too are allowed to review patches posted to wine-patches and to point out their flaws. Some people do so regularly and thus help Alexandre. If bad patches are accepted it's partly your fault. (and mine too cause I don't review patches enough) > There are a lot of easily catchable bugs in the tree, for example, > potential security holes like buffer overrun, meaningless comparison > of unsigned < 0 (or > 0), misuse of BOOL vs. HRESULT, misuse of > functions such as strcasecmp(), use of non-portable syntax, etc. You are welcome to review the Wine code and submit patches too. Again some others do so on a regular basis (me included this time :-). But if you don't want Wine to get better, then sure, just bitch about it. > That's the main reason why Wine keeps crashing every time I give it a > try with my Windows apps. Rght. It must be the *main* cause of crashes. All the stub functions and unimplemented undocumented features must really be secondary causes of crashes in comparison. -- Francois Gouget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://fgouget.free.fr/ 1 + e ^ ( i * pi ) = 0
Re: Code quality (was Re: comctl32: Fix invalid syntax)
"Bang Jun-young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> People prefer to follow Alexandre's tree but nobody forces them to use it. > > If winehq.org is Alexandre's own property, this is something > fundametally wrong again. You may try to learn how things work in the Wine project by reading the following thread: http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2006-September/050915.html and I'd suggest you very carefully read what Mike said: http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2006-September/051163.html -- Dmitry.
re: Code quality (was Re: comctl32: Fix invalid syntax)
Bang Jun-young wrote: >In fact, this is a well known mistake many newbie Win32 developers >make (and fix in minutes). It shouldn't have been in the tree in the >first place if he actually have read the patch. There are a lot of >easily catchable bugs in the tree, for example, potential security >holes like buffer overrun, meaningless comparison of unsigned < 0 (or > > 0), misuse of BOOL vs. HRESULT, misuse of functions such as > strcasecmp(), use of non-portable syntax, etc. Most of them (if not > all) could be filtered out if he have read the patches carefully. >That's the main reason why Wine keeps crashing every time I give it a >try with my Windows apps. I don't think so. In my experience, it's either a missing feature or something more subtle. Outright bugs of the kind you describe are the minority. I think. > Since 1993, Wine has never gotten to the > point where everybody could rely on it for his daily work. It has as > awfully many bugs as Win95. I see something fundamentally > wrong with development process. Nah, Alexandre usually does a good job of screening patches. We're lucky to have such a good maintainer, IMHO. (I say this knowing full well that newbies are put off by how difficult it is to get feedback because I have seen much, much worse maintainers. Imagine if, say, that guy who always yells at the newbies to not paste logs in bug reports was the maintainer. We'd probably lose all our developers in a month.) So you're peeved you don't have commit access. That's understandable, but it's time to get over it. IMHO the single-committer system works pretty well once you get into the swing of it. It actually forces at least one code review on every patch! - Dan
Code quality (was Re: comctl32: Fix invalid syntax)
On 2/7/08, Michael Stefaniuc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bang Jun-young wrote:
> > On 2/7/08, Alexandre Julliard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> "Bang Jun-young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >>
> >>> 18 hours passed, and it looks like Alexandre decided to ignore this...why?
> >>>
> >>> This fix is required for Wine to be built with VC2005/2008 (although
> >>> Alexandre doesn't seem to care about it).
> >> There's no need to count the hours, or to ask every day, especially not
> >> with a mail to wine-patches. I have lots of pending patches from my
> >> vacation, I'll get to it eventually, and if I don't you should resubmit
> >> it after a week has passed.
> >
> > That's because you wanted yourself to be the only committer in the
> > project. Why don't you give commit privilege to other Wine
> > contributors as well?
> Huh? Why would you need that?
Because I'm concerned with the code quality of Wine. When Alexandre
commits what he doesn't understand, it's a red sign to the project.
Months ago I posted a patch similar to this one to wine-patches, and
he committed it:
typedef struct _OLEOBJECTVTBL {
-void CALLBACK *(*QueryProtocol)(_LPOLEOBJECT,LPCOLESTR16);
+void * (CALLBACK *QueryProtocol)(_LPOLEOBJECT,LPCOLESTR16);
How did he know what the patch does from the same message "Fix invalid
syntax?" IIRC, he didn't tell anything about what he doesn't
understand.
In fact, this is a well known mistake many newbie Win32 developers
make (and fix in minutes). It shouldn't have been in the tree in the
first place if he actually have read the patch. There are a lot of
easily catchable bugs in the tree, for example, potential security
holes like buffer overrun, meaningless comparison of unsigned < 0 (or
> 0), misuse of BOOL vs. HRESULT, misuse of functions such as
strcasecmp(), use of non-portable syntax, etc. Most of them (if not
all) could be filtered out if he have read the patches carefully.
That's the main reason why Wine keeps crashing every time I give it a
try with my Windows apps. Since 1993, Wine has never gotten to the
point where everybody could rely on it for his daily work. It has as
awfully many bugs as Win95. I see something fundamentally wrong with
development process.
> Wine uses git, a distributed SCM. You are
> free to publish your own Wine tree without waiting for Alexandre.
99% of the world won't benefit from what I have done in my own local
repository. People usually don't have a much time to keep track of
repositories of hundreds of developers around the world. That's why
every open source project has the main repository even if developers
usually maintain their own repostories at home.
> People prefer to follow Alexandre's tree but nobody forces them to use it.
If winehq.org is Alexandre's own property, this is something
fundametally wrong again.
Re: comctl32: Fix invalid syntax.
Bang Jun-young wrote: > On 2/7/08, Alexandre Julliard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> "Bang Jun-young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> >>> 18 hours passed, and it looks like Alexandre decided to ignore this...why? >>> >>> This fix is required for Wine to be built with VC2005/2008 (although >>> Alexandre doesn't seem to care about it). >> There's no need to count the hours, or to ask every day, especially not >> with a mail to wine-patches. I have lots of pending patches from my >> vacation, I'll get to it eventually, and if I don't you should resubmit >> it after a week has passed. > > That's because you wanted yourself to be the only committer in the > project. Why don't you give commit privilege to other Wine > contributors as well? Huh? Why would you need that? Wine uses git, a distributed SCM. You are free to publish your own Wine tree without waiting for Alexandre. People prefer to follow Alexandre's tree but nobody forces them to use it. bye michael -- Michael Stefaniuc Tel.: +49-711-96437-199 Consulting Communications Engineer Fax.: +49-711-96437-111 Reg. Adresse: Red Hat GmbH, Hauptstätter Strasse 58, 70178 Stuttgart Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRB 153243 Geschäftsführer: Brendan Lane, Charlie Peters, Michael Cunningham, Werner Knoblich
Re: comctl32: Fix invalid syntax.
On 2/7/08, Alexandre Julliard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "Bang Jun-young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > 18 hours passed, and it looks like Alexandre decided to ignore this...why? > > > > This fix is required for Wine to be built with VC2005/2008 (although > > Alexandre doesn't seem to care about it). > > There's no need to count the hours, or to ask every day, especially not > with a mail to wine-patches. I have lots of pending patches from my > vacation, I'll get to it eventually, and if I don't you should resubmit > it after a week has passed. That's because you wanted yourself to be the only committer in the project. Why don't you give commit privilege to other Wine contributors as well? > And if you want me to care about VC2005, > maybe you should mention in your patch that this is the reason for your > change, "fix invalid syntax" doesn't tell me anything. The patch is so obvious that I presumed you need no explanation.
Re: comctl32: Fix invalid syntax.
"Bang Jun-young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > 18 hours passed, and it looks like Alexandre decided to ignore this...why? > > This fix is required for Wine to be built with VC2005/2008 (although > Alexandre doesn't seem to care about it). There's no need to count the hours, or to ask every day, especially not with a mail to wine-patches. I have lots of pending patches from my vacation, I'll get to it eventually, and if I don't you should resubmit it after a week has passed. And if you want me to care about VC2005, maybe you should mention in your patch that this is the reason for your change, "fix invalid syntax" doesn't tell me anything. -- Alexandre Julliard [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: comctl32: Fix invalid syntax.
18 hours passed, and it looks like Alexandre decided to ignore this...why? This fix is required for Wine to be built with VC2005/2008 (although Alexandre doesn't seem to care about it). On 2/6/08, Bang Jun-young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Any reason why this hasn't been committed? >
