Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation
2009/3/12 David Gerard : > Again, you appear to be reading things I didn't write at all, > even while quoting what I did. Your communications are > confusing, please make them less so. I apologise, I was getting you confused with King InuYasha. Serves me right for emailing while tired :D
Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation
2009/3/11 Ben Klein : > 2009/3/12 David Gerard : >> Reasons for picking Moin are typically: >> Reasons for picking MediaWiki are typically: > Moin is sounding better to me so far. Less overhead is good. > Generally, people pick a Wiki that Just Works (TM). Unfortunately, > they pretty much all do, so there's no absolute "this is better". The > existence of so many different Wiki systems is testament to that. Well, yeah. Has anyone given a good reason to move from Moin? I can read the wiki and write stuff in it OK. >> I did a move at work from Moin to MediaWiki, on the intranet wiki ten >> of us use all day every day. Our reason was that our Moin wiki was >> just somehow not as usable as we wanted from a wiki, so we gave >> MediaWiki a go and it was good enough to bother moving engines. Also, >> the Moin wiki was full of outdated rubbish, so this was a handy excuse >> to start over. > "somehow not as usable" isn't a strong argument either. Specifically > what issues do you have with Moin, and are they present on > wiki.winehq.org? None. You appear to be reading something that I didn't write. >>> Number of new users is not necessarily proportional to number of new >>> spammers. Do we actually have a problem with spam on the Wiki? >> If there is, I'll hereby put my hand up to help. > You were implying that there IS a problem with spammers. I see a > request elsewhere on wine-devel to have an IP blocked, so that's one > spammer out of how many new users? Er, I didn't state that wiki.winehq.org has a problem with spammers - I asked if there was, *in the text you actually quoted*. Again, you appear to be reading things I didn't write at all, even while quoting what I did. Your communications are confusing, please make them less so. - d.
Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation
2009/3/12 David Gerard : > 2009/3/11 Ben Klein : > >> Does what we have now work? Yes. Is there any reason why we should >> consider moving from Moin to some other Wiki system? Your turn to >> answer. > > At work, I use a ridiculous range of wiki engines. I've used Moin and > MediaWiki most heavily. > > Reasons for picking Moin are typically: > > * it'll do > * it's not PHP > * it doesn't use a database. > > Reasons for picking MediaWiki are typically: > > * it'll do > * people know how to use Wikipedia. Moin is sounding better to me so far. Less overhead is good. Generally, people pick a Wiki that Just Works (TM). Unfortunately, they pretty much all do, so there's no absolute "this is better". The existence of so many different Wiki systems is testament to that. > I did a move at work from Moin to MediaWiki, on the intranet wiki ten > of us use all day every day. Our reason was that our Moin wiki was > just somehow not as usable as we wanted from a wiki, so we gave > MediaWiki a go and it was good enough to bother moving engines. Also, > the Moin wiki was full of outdated rubbish, so this was a handy excuse > to start over. "somehow not as usable" isn't a strong argument either. Specifically what issues do you have with Moin, and are they present on wiki.winehq.org? >> Number of new users is not necessarily proportional to number of new >> spammers. Do we actually have a problem with spam on the Wiki? > > If there is, I'll hereby put my hand up to help. You were implying that there IS a problem with spammers. I see a request elsewhere on wine-devel to have an IP blocked, so that's one spammer out of how many new users?
Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation
2009/3/11 Ben Klein : > Does what we have now work? Yes. Is there any reason why we should > consider moving from Moin to some other Wiki system? Your turn to > answer. At work, I use a ridiculous range of wiki engines. I've used Moin and MediaWiki most heavily. Reasons for picking Moin are typically: * it'll do * it's not PHP * it doesn't use a database. Reasons for picking MediaWiki are typically: * it'll do * people know how to use Wikipedia. I did a move at work from Moin to MediaWiki, on the intranet wiki ten of us use all day every day. Our reason was that our Moin wiki was just somehow not as usable as we wanted from a wiki, so we gave MediaWiki a go and it was good enough to bother moving engines. Also, the Moin wiki was full of outdated rubbish, so this was a handy excuse to start over. It's not clear that any of those reasons apply here. Moving wiki engines is a *pain in the backside* and it's not something you do unless you have to. > Number of new users is not necessarily proportional to number of new > spammers. Do we actually have a problem with spam on the Wiki? If there is, I'll hereby put my hand up to help. - d.
Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation
2009/3/11 King InuYasha : > On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:17 PM, Ben Klein wrote: >> >> 2009/3/11 King InuYasha : >> > Why are we using Moin anyways? I know Fedora used to use Moin and they >> > moved >> > off of it for their wiki, and I honestly think that perhaps WineHQ needs >> > to >> > as well. >> >> If you're going to argue for a complete replacement of the Wiki >> system, you'll have to provide better support than "Fedora dumped >> Moin". > > I didn't want to provide reasons to dump it unless I know why we ARE using > it so I can provide better counterarguments. Just showing up with arguments > for another wiki based system without knowing why Moin is chosen does not > paint me in worse light than I already am ;) > It makes me seem belligerent. Does what we have now work? Yes. Is there any reason why we should consider moving from Moin to some other Wiki system? Your turn to answer. 2009/3/11 King InuYasha : > On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 3:46 AM, David Gerard wrote: >> 2009/3/5 King InuYasha : >> > A wiki shouldn't have users creating accounts every day, that is a bad >> > indicator. >> >> It is difficult to understand the thinking behind such a statement >> unless you are literally aiming to close a project to outside >> participation. > > Sorry, I should have completed my thought. If you can justify users creating > accounts every day and adding real content to the wiki, then that is fine. > But in most cases, when wikis have lots of users creating accounts every > day, generally some serious spamming is going on or is about to go on. Now, > WineHQ is a high-activity site, so there is some justification for having > lots of users, but take care to use basic precautions when having users > created. My two favorite methods of ensuring users are actually real ones > are email confirm and CAPTCHA, usually a combination of the two. If you > still see similarly high levels of user creation and real content is being > added, then its ok. However, if you use an old version of any web content > software, then the benefits may be negated by the fact that it is possible > that the wiki engine had already been compromised. Number of new users is not necessarily proportional to number of new spammers. Do we actually have a problem with spam on the Wiki?
Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 3:46 AM, David Gerard wrote: > 2009/3/5 King InuYasha : > > > A wiki shouldn't have users creating accounts every day, that is a bad > > indicator. > > > It is difficult to understand the thinking behind such a statement > unless you are literally aiming to close a project to outside > participation. > > > - d. > > > Sorry, I should have completed my thought. If you can justify users creating accounts every day and adding real content to the wiki, then that is fine. But in most cases, when wikis have lots of users creating accounts every day, generally some serious spamming is going on or is about to go on. Now, WineHQ is a high-activity site, so there is some justification for having lots of users, but take care to use basic precautions when having users created. My two favorite methods of ensuring users are actually real ones are email confirm and CAPTCHA, usually a combination of the two. If you still see similarly high levels of user creation and real content is being added, then its ok. However, if you use an old version of any web content software, then the benefits may be negated by the fact that it is possible that the wiki engine had already been compromised.
Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation
I didn't recommend MediaWiki. If anything, MediaWiki would put us in a _worse_ situation than before. On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 3:48 AM, David Gerard wrote: > 2009/3/11 King InuYasha : > > > Why are we using Moin anyways? I know Fedora used to use Moin and they > moved > > off of it for their wiki, and I honestly think that perhaps WineHQ needs > to > > as well. > > > As someone who's done the Moin->MediaWiki thing, I heartily > disrecommend it if avoidable: > > http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MoinMoin > > > - d. > > >
Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation
2009/3/11 King InuYasha : > Why are we using Moin anyways? I know Fedora used to use Moin and they moved > off of it for their wiki, and I honestly think that perhaps WineHQ needs to > as well. As someone who's done the Moin->MediaWiki thing, I heartily disrecommend it if avoidable: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MoinMoin - d.
Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation
2009/3/5 King InuYasha : > A wiki shouldn't have users creating accounts every day, that is a bad > indicator. It is difficult to understand the thinking behind such a statement unless you are literally aiming to close a project to outside participation. - d.
Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 3:38 AM, King InuYasha wrote: > On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:17 PM, Ben Klein wrote: > >> 2009/3/11 King InuYasha : >> > Why are we using Moin anyways? I know Fedora used to use Moin and they >> moved >> > off of it for their wiki, and I honestly think that perhaps WineHQ needs >> to >> > as well. >> >> If you're going to argue for a complete replacement of the Wiki >> system, you'll have to provide better support than "Fedora dumped >> Moin". >> > > I didn't want to provide reasons to dump it unless I know why we ARE using > it so I can provide better counterarguments. Just showing up with arguments > for another wiki based system without knowing why Moin is chosen does not > paint me in worse light than I already am ;) > > It makes me seem belligerent. > Oops, I meant does paint me in a worse light than I already am...
Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation
On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:17 PM, Ben Klein wrote: > 2009/3/11 King InuYasha : > > Why are we using Moin anyways? I know Fedora used to use Moin and they > moved > > off of it for their wiki, and I honestly think that perhaps WineHQ needs > to > > as well. > > If you're going to argue for a complete replacement of the Wiki > system, you'll have to provide better support than "Fedora dumped > Moin". > I didn't want to provide reasons to dump it unless I know why we ARE using it so I can provide better counterarguments. Just showing up with arguments for another wiki based system without knowing why Moin is chosen does not paint me in worse light than I already am ;) It makes me seem belligerent.
Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation
2009/3/11 King InuYasha : > Why are we using Moin anyways? I know Fedora used to use Moin and they moved > off of it for their wiki, and I honestly think that perhaps WineHQ needs to > as well. If you're going to argue for a complete replacement of the Wiki system, you'll have to provide better support than "Fedora dumped Moin".
Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Dimi Paun wrote: > > On Thu, 2009-03-05 at 14:07 +0800, Dmitry Timoshkov wrote: > > Actually if there are a lot of user account creation every day in the > > Wine wiki then there is something wrong with it. There are not that > > much Wine developers and probably some active testers/appdb > > maintainers, who else could pretend to have a user account in the Wine > > wiki? > > I don't think we have all that many. The wiki is up for a few years, > and we have <2700 accounts, I'd suspect most of them are valid accounts. > > If spammers would create them automatically, we would have see > a lot more I'd think. > > > > Moreover it will add additional maintenance > > > burden on our part to keep the captchas operational. > > > > Isn't that an one time effort? > > Not sure -- if this is not integrated in the base version, > it will create problems every time we need to do an upgrade. > Moin is great, but they break things all the time between > versions, it's already a pain to do the upgrades... > > -- > Dimi Paun > Lattica, Inc. > > > > Why are we using Moin anyways? I know Fedora used to use Moin and they moved off of it for their wiki, and I honestly think that perhaps WineHQ needs to as well.
Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation
On Thu, 2009-03-05 at 14:07 +0800, Dmitry Timoshkov wrote: > Actually if there are a lot of user account creation every day in the > Wine wiki then there is something wrong with it. There are not that > much Wine developers and probably some active testers/appdb > maintainers, who else could pretend to have a user account in the Wine > wiki? I don't think we have all that many. The wiki is up for a few years, and we have <2700 accounts, I'd suspect most of them are valid accounts. If spammers would create them automatically, we would have see a lot more I'd think. > > Moreover it will add additional maintenance > > burden on our part to keep the captchas operational. > > Isn't that an one time effort? Not sure -- if this is not integrated in the base version, it will create problems every time we need to do an upgrade. Moin is great, but they break things all the time between versions, it's already a pain to do the upgrades... -- Dimi Paun Lattica, Inc.
Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation
Oops... -- Forwarded message -- From: King InuYasha Date: Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 4:34 AM Subject: Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation To: Dmitry Timoshkov On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 12:07 AM, Dmitry Timoshkov wrote: > "Dimi Paun" wrote: > > On Wed, 2009-03-04 at 11:59 -0600, John Klehm wrote: >> >>> I wouldn't really want per save captcha either, per account creation >>> is what I was hoping would cut down the spam. If the accounts are >>> created manually not much we can do about it :( >>> >> >> I think that's the case. Which is why I think it's not worth doing, >> as we would just make it harder on most real users, while not detracting >> any of the spammers. >> > > Actually if there are a lot of user account creation every day in the Wine > wiki then there is something wrong with it. There are not that much Wine > developers and probably some active testers/appdb maintainers, who else > could pretend to have a user account in the Wine wiki? > > Moreover it will add additional maintenance >> burden on our part to keep the captchas operational. >> > > Isn't that an one time effort? > > -- > Dmitry. > > > A wiki shouldn't have users creating accounts every day, that is a bad indicator. Also, in theory, CAPTCHA code does only need a one-time effort, but most wikis do not implement the best way to do CAPTCHA, so unless Wine was to use ReCAPTCHA, they would need to make sure that the CAPTCHA made is confusing enough that a computer cannot read it, which means mixing colors, strike lines, shapes, etc. It doesn't help that WineHQ uses MoinMoin wiki, which afaik does not have a CAPTCHA extension available. Also, it's quite obvious that the Moin engine on WineHQ is modified, so even if there was one, it may not work, depending on the intensity of the changes to the engine.
Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation
"Dimi Paun" wrote: On Wed, 2009-03-04 at 11:59 -0600, John Klehm wrote: I wouldn't really want per save captcha either, per account creation is what I was hoping would cut down the spam. If the accounts are created manually not much we can do about it :( I think that's the case. Which is why I think it's not worth doing, as we would just make it harder on most real users, while not detracting any of the spammers. Actually if there are a lot of user account creation every day in the Wine wiki then there is something wrong with it. There are not that much Wine developers and probably some active testers/appdb maintainers, who else could pretend to have a user account in the Wine wiki? Moreover it will add additional maintenance burden on our part to keep the captchas operational. Isn't that an one time effort? -- Dmitry.
Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation
On Wed, 2009-03-04 at 11:59 -0600, John Klehm wrote: > I wouldn't really want per save captcha either, per account creation > is what I was hoping would cut down the spam. If the accounts are > created manually not much we can do about it :( I think that's the case. Which is why I think it's not worth doing, as we would just make it harder on most real users, while not detracting any of the spammers. Moreover it will add additional maintenance burden on our part to keep the captchas operational. > Maybe some kind of save moderation for new accounts? (which would > probably be a lot of bother) :/ Yes, this would be horrible. I think it's easier on everybody to just delete things after the fact, as it happens now. -- Dimi Paun Lattica, Inc.
Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Dimi Paun wrote: > > And if we don't implement captchas for saves (which I personally would > hate but maybe others would be OK with it), I'm not sure it would save > us all that much spam to begin with, as spammer do create accounts > manually and the captchas would not be a problem for them. > I wouldn't really want per save captcha either, per account creation is what I was hoping would cut down the spam. If the accounts are created manually not much we can do about it :( Maybe some kind of save moderation for new accounts? (which would probably be a lot of bother) :/ > > The code for the Wiki is on Wine's SourceForge CVS repository: > http://wine.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/wine/wiki/ > Ahh thanks! I forgot about wine's sourceforge repo. Cheers, --John Klehm
Re: Wiki challenge question on user account creation
On Tue, 2009-03-03 at 21:32 -0600, John Klehm wrote: > Luckily it seems MoinMoin has a feature that provides exactly this: > http://moinmo.in/TextCha > > However on that page it only mentions a challenge question for commits > which wasn't quite what I wanted so I took a look at the source for > stable release 1.8.2 Yes, this can be a problem -- I'm afraid captchas are a bit annoying, and before we go ahead and implement them I'd like to find the opinion of the real users of the wiki if they'd like something like this. And if we don't implement captchas for saves (which I personally would hate but maybe others would be OK with it), I'm not sure it would save us all that much spam to begin with, as spammer do create accounts manually and the captchas would not be a problem for them. > http://hg.moinmo.in/moin/1.8/file/1f0db10c207f/MoinMoin/action/newaccount.py#l25 > > Seems they have the challenge question for user account creation in > that version. > > What's involved in upgrading? How can I get the current winehq wiki > code/data? First we would need to upgrade the Wiki. We are currently looking to do that, so it shouldn't be a problem. The code for the Wiki is on Wine's SourceForge CVS repository: http://wine.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/wine/wiki/ -- Dimi Paun Lattica, Inc.
Wiki challenge question on user account creation
Hey, After months of browseing the wiki recent changes rss feed I've been irked enough to try and see what could be done about it. I'm sure everyone is having fun playing whack a mole with the wikispam but I was hoping that we could do something similar to the forum account creation "Who is the maintainer of Wine" question. I'm hoping that would cut down on a large portion of the wiki spam, which is now up to several bogus posts per day. (hats off to those that have been scrubbing it clean!) Luckily it seems MoinMoin has a feature that provides exactly this: http://moinmo.in/TextCha However on that page it only mentions a challenge question for commits which wasn't quite what I wanted so I took a look at the source for stable release 1.8.2 http://hg.moinmo.in/moin/1.8/file/1f0db10c207f/MoinMoin/action/newaccount.py#l25 Seems they have the challenge question for user account creation in that version. What's involved in upgrading? How can I get the current winehq wiki code/data? I would be interested in helping test this or patching but I'm not sure how to import the data into my test server. Regards, --John Klehm
