Re: Wine, Darwine, CodeWeavers-- Intel MacOS X
On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 04:08:30 -0400, William Knop wrote: Oh... Sorry about that. I suppose I did come off a bit critical. I think your email was OK, but wine-devel gets a constant stream of Mac users/developers telling us how many Mac users want Wine, how they would be a big benefit to the project, how Apple-land is a land of milk and honey etc ... whereas not many people here are actually Mac users. Telling people that's it's super important won't actually speed anything up. Not aimed specifically at you, this is just a general trend that's been on the increase lately. You know what they say about wishes and horses ... thanks -mike
Re: Wine, Darwine, CodeWeavers-- Intel MacOS X
Hi Mike, On 6/27/06, Mike Hearn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think your email was OK, but wine-devel gets a constant stream of Mac users/developers telling us how many Mac users want Wine, how they would be a big benefit to the project, how Apple-land is a land of milk and honey etc ... whereas not many people here are actually Mac users. Telling people that's it's super important won't actually speed anything up. I don't think they are wrong about feeling that the site just seems to totally ignore OS X. I guess the FreeBSD and Solaris guys feel the same way reading over recent discussions. Alexandre does not treat patches from anyone as a second class citizen but the site does seem to be very Linux centric rather than platform agnostic. Like read the Myths page. Its all about Linux. I am happy to rewrite some bits of the site to make it broader in scope. -- Steven Edwards There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and that is an idea whose time has come. - Victor Hugo
Re: Wine, Darwine, CodeWeavers-- Intel MacOS X
On 6/27/06, Steven Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think they are wrong about feeling that the site just seems to totally ignore OS X. I guess the FreeBSD and Solaris guys feel the same way reading over recent discussions. Alexandre does not treat patches from anyone as a second class citizen but the site does seem to be very Linux centric rather than platform agnostic. Like read the Myths page. Its all about Linux. I am happy to rewrite some bits of the site to make it broader in scope. That's true, but then what the myths page says could really apply to any alt operating system. But writing Linux/FreeBSD/OpenSolaris/MacOS/BeOS every time is unwieldy, especially as most of our users are on Linux anyway. I guess you could rephrase it all in terms of non-Windows systems.
Re: Wine, Darwine, CodeWeavers-- Intel MacOS X
I think you missed my point. I know people are working on it. The problem is a few people, including Codeweavers, are working on it, which is just about the sum-total of the information out there, is not enough. There is very little information out there for potential developers to know what's going on with wine and intel macos x. For instance, a status page describing to-do items would be a start (I'm going to add it to the wine wiki when I figure out what the status is). It should be mentioned on winehq, so macos x developers know to investigate further when they check wine out. Expecting people to dig through the code or the mailing list is unreasonable. Is this really only obvious to me? I don't mean to be rude; I just see some easy ways to attract mac people to wine. Wine is likely to be an important addition to mac users' software base in the future. So many people want the mac experience, but have to run windows software. Many more people, I'd say, than those who wanted the mac experience and the unix software suite, and look at how popular fink is. It's a disservice to both parties to not properly advertise. On 6/25/06, Dan Kegel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: William Knop writes: What's the story with wine on intel os x? A few people, including Codeweavers, are working on it. More would be welcome. There is no politics keeping people away, as far as I know. If you run into any developer who says that politics is keeping him or her from submitting patches to wine-patches, please let me know. - Dan
Re: Wine, Darwine, CodeWeavers-- Intel MacOS X
On 6/26/06, William Knop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think you missed my point. I know people are working on it. The problem is a few people, including Codeweavers, are working on it, which is just about the sum-total of the information out there, is not enough. There is very little information out there for potential developers to know what's going on with wine and intel macos x. For instance, a status page describing to-do items would be a start (I'm going to add it to the wine wiki when I figure out what the status is). It should be mentioned on winehq, so macos x developers know to investigate further when they check wine out. Expecting people to dig through the code or the mailing list is unreasonable. Is this really only obvious to me? You could just ask, Hey, what's the status of Wine on Intel Max OS X?. No one has really stepped up to work on that aspect of Wine, outside of Codeweavers, so there's not a whole lot of incentive to put this information up. So if you're wanting to work on this, step up to the plate, and I'm sure we'll be more than willing to help. -- James Hawkins
Re: Wine, Darwine, CodeWeavers-- Intel MacOS X
On 6/26/06, James Hawkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You could just ask, Hey, what's the status of Wine on Intel Max OS X?. No one has really stepped up to work on that aspect of Wine, outside of Codeweavers, so there's not a whole lot of incentive to put this information up. So if you're wanting to work on this, step up to the plate, and I'm sure we'll be more than willing to help. You pretty much directly quoted the first line of his first email. He's also offered to add the status to the wiki once it becomes public knowledge (e.g. when someone from within codeweavers sends an email to the list with a little information). --tim
Re: Wine, Darwine, CodeWeavers-- Intel MacOS X
On 6/26/06, Tim Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/26/06, James Hawkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You could just ask, Hey, what's the status of Wine on Intel Max OS X?. No one has really stepped up to work on that aspect of Wine, outside of Codeweavers, so there's not a whole lot of incentive to put this information up. So if you're wanting to work on this, step up to the plate, and I'm sure we'll be more than willing to help. You pretty much directly quoted the first line of his first email. He's also offered to add the status to the wiki once it becomes public knowledge (e.g. when someone from within codeweavers sends an email to the list with a little information). Well, I was trying to be nice by not saying that his attitude in his emails tends to put devels off, and emails like that usually get ignored. That's why I said *just*, meaning, only ask that question. -- James Hawkins
Re: Wine, Darwine, CodeWeavers-- Intel MacOS X
Er... I did ask that, and I have stepped up to the plate. :) Well, I said I'd update the wine wiki with the status, anyway. I also think it'd be a good idea to add to the winehq main page, but I wasn't sure who to talk to: Wine provides both a development toolkit for porting Windows source code to Unix as well as a program loader, allowing many unmodified Windows programs to run on x86-based Unixes, including Linux, FreeBSD, Darwin (MacOS X), and Solaris. Will On 6/26/06, James Hawkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You could just ask, Hey, what's the status of Wine on Intel Max OS X?. No one has really stepped up to work on that aspect of Wine, outside of Codeweavers, so there's not a whole lot of incentive to put this information up. So if you're wanting to work on this, step up to the plate, and I'm sure we'll be more than willing to help. -- James Hawkins
Re: Wine, Darwine, CodeWeavers-- Intel MacOS X
On 6/26/06, William Knop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Er... I did ask that, and I have stepped up to the plate. :) Well, I said I'd update the wine wiki with the status, anyway. I also think it'd be a good idea to add to the winehq main page, but I wasn't sure who to talk to: Good to hear, we can always use more active help. If you want to change the winehq main page, just make a patch and send it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think the best that you can do about a status update is wait to see if anyone responds to this thread. Unfortunately, most of the work that is needed to get Wine running on Intel Macs can only be done by Alexandre Julliard, unless I'm mistaken. You can send him a line at [EMAIL PROTECTED], or see if he replies to this thread. -- James Hawkins
Re: Wine, Darwine, CodeWeavers-- Intel MacOS X
William Knop [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Just from keeping up with the mailing list, I've gleaned that Quartz and Core Audio are being worked on, in addition to a stack alignment patch. They seem to be pretty far along, but I don't really know. Are there any other intel/darwin areas that require attention or are being worked on? At this point, many simple apps should probably work OK. The main problems areas that need work are exception handling (mainly because of kernel bugs) and the debugger support that essentially doesn't work at all. You'll also need to disable optimizations when building because of the gcc stack-realign bug (we need to come up with a configure check for it), and you most likely have to use an x.org X server because the Apple one has some serious bugs in rootless mode. So it's not quite ready for prime time yet. We are hoping to have binary packages on WineHQ in the near future, that should make it somewhat easier to get things going. -- Alexandre Julliard [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wine, Darwine, CodeWeavers-- Intel MacOS X
On 6/26/06, Alexandre Julliard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At this point, many simple apps should probably work OK. The main problems areas that need work are exception handling (mainly because of kernel bugs) and the debugger support that essentially doesn't work at all. You'll also need to disable optimizations when building because of the gcc stack-realign bug (we need to come up with a configure check for it), and you most likely have to use an x.org X server because the Apple one has some serious bugs in rootless mode. Alright, so this is what I've got so far: Overall Status: Simple applications should work. Notes: Make sure to disable gcc optimizations when building since gcc has a stack realignment bug. Also, Apple's X11 has serious bugs in rootless mode, so x.org's X11 may be necessary. Tasks: Quartz Driver: works Core Audio Driver: works 16 Byte Stack Alignment: work in progress Mach Kernel Workarounds and Exception Handling: needs a lot of work Debugger: does not work Anything to add or correct? Thanks, Will
Re: Wine, Darwine, CodeWeavers-- Intel MacOS X
On 6/26/06, Alexandre Julliard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There's no quartz driver in WineHQ. There are some patches floating around but it's very far from working. Oops, I realized that just after I hit send. I'll make sure to state that it has rudimentary support.
Re: Wine, Darwine, CodeWeavers-- Intel MacOS X
I'm personally a relative Noop to Wine on Mac intel development. My goal has been to conquer the threading issues that keep it from running most modern-day apps, but I haven't really found the support (at least from the darwine email lists) necessary to write this component. About the only place there I've contributed was on the have a separate vs don't have a separate email list, which IMHO if they have one PPC should be mentioned as when I see the Darwine project I see it as one aimed at Intel macs, not PPC. That may be the reason that my responses have gone quiet over there -- intel isn't a goal. Dave --- James Hawkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/26/06, William Knop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think you missed my point. I know people are working on it. The problem is a few people, including Codeweavers, are working on it, which is just about the sum-total of the information out there, is not enough. There is very little information out there for potential developers to know what's going on with wine and intel macos x. For instance, a status page describing to-do items would be a start (I'm going to add it to the wine wiki when I figure out what the status is). It should be mentioned on winehq, so macos x developers know to investigate further when they check wine out. Expecting people to dig through the code or the mailing list is unreasonable. Is this really only obvious to me? You could just ask, Hey, what's the status of Wine on Intel Max OS X?. No one has really stepped up to work on that aspect of Wine, outside of Codeweavers, so there's not a whole lot of incentive to put this information up. So if you're wanting to work on this, step up to the plate, and I'm sure we'll be more than willing to help. -- James Hawkins -- David Bialac [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wine, Darwine, CodeWeavers-- Intel MacOS X
Hi William, On 6/26/06, William Knop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quartz Driver: works Starting a wiki page just about this would be nice if one does not already exist. I am really interested in the Quartz driver but have not had the time to focus on it. It would be cool if someone could cleanup the diff and or poke at Julliard for his comments on it before too much time is invested in developing it futher. As far as I have seen simple win32 apps work with it which is a good start but it would be nice to have a patch that he could review and advise what more is needed before it can go in winehq. Being able to run Wine without needing the damn X server would be wonderful but its never going to get past the solitare stage unless we can get it in winehq. The last time I spoke with him about it, he said the Quartz driver did not have to be 100% just enough to prove a valid framework which I think the current one does. Namely running solitare without the X. The major infrastructure issue with it the last time I looked was the problem of conflicting functions in the C namespace. The quartzdrv imported and used Mac functions that had the same name as win32 functions and led to all sorts of problems requiring a hack to winebuild. Julliard suggested some linker magic could be done to not require needing to hack winebuild and or making some sort of wrapper library. I am sure there are other issues with design he will want resolved also -- Steven Edwards There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and that is an idea whose time has come. - Victor Hugo
Re: Wine, Darwine, CodeWeavers-- Intel MacOS X
Yeah, a wiki page for the Quartz driver would be nice. There are a couple implementations floating around, some using QuickDraw and some using CoreGraphics. Most have endian bugs, since they were written with Darwine/PPC in mind. As far as which is best, it seems to be that QD is easiest, but it's a deprecated API. I think I'd use CG if I decided to sit down and write it, which I might do. I've got some free time, and in a week or so I'll have access to an intel mac for development. Thoughts on CG? Alexandre? Will On 6/26/06, Steven Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi William, On 6/26/06, William Knop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quartz Driver: works Starting a wiki page just about this would be nice if one does not already exist. I am really interested in the Quartz driver but have not had the time to focus on it. It would be cool if someone could cleanup the diff and or poke at Julliard for his comments on it before too much time is invested in developing it futher. As far as I have seen simple win32 apps work with it which is a good start but it would be nice to have a patch that he could review and advise what more is needed before it can go in winehq. Being able to run Wine without needing the damn X server would be wonderful but its never going to get past the solitare stage unless we can get it in winehq. The last time I spoke with him about it, he said the Quartz driver did not have to be 100% just enough to prove a valid framework which I think the current one does. Namely running solitare without the X. The major infrastructure issue with it the last time I looked was the problem of conflicting functions in the C namespace. The quartzdrv imported and used Mac functions that had the same name as win32 functions and led to all sorts of problems requiring a hack to winebuild. Julliard suggested some linker magic could be done to not require needing to hack winebuild and or making some sort of wrapper library. I am sure there are other issues with design he will want resolved also -- Steven Edwards There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and that is an idea whose time has come. - Victor Hugo
Re: Wine, Darwine, CodeWeavers-- Intel MacOS X
After looking at Darwine's quartzdrv, it looks like it uses CoreGraphics. On 6/26/06, William Knop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, a wiki page for the Quartz driver would be nice. There are a couple implementations floating around, some using QuickDraw and some using CoreGraphics. Most have endian bugs, since they were written with Darwine/PPC in mind. As far as which is best, it seems to be that QD is easiest, but it's a deprecated API. I think I'd use CG if I decided to sit down and write it, which I might do. I've got some free time, and in a week or so I'll have access to an intel mac for development. Thoughts on CG? Alexandre? Will On 6/26/06, Steven Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi William, On 6/26/06, William Knop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quartz Driver: works Starting a wiki page just about this would be nice if one does not already exist. I am really interested in the Quartz driver but have not had the time to focus on it. It would be cool if someone could cleanup the diff and or poke at Julliard for his comments on it before too much time is invested in developing it futher. As far as I have seen simple win32 apps work with it which is a good start but it would be nice to have a patch that he could review and advise what more is needed before it can go in winehq. Being able to run Wine without needing the damn X server would be wonderful but its never going to get past the solitare stage unless we can get it in winehq. The last time I spoke with him about it, he said the Quartz driver did not have to be 100% just enough to prove a valid framework which I think the current one does. Namely running solitare without the X. The major infrastructure issue with it the last time I looked was the problem of conflicting functions in the C namespace. The quartzdrv imported and used Mac functions that had the same name as win32 functions and led to all sorts of problems requiring a hack to winebuild. Julliard suggested some linker magic could be done to not require needing to hack winebuild and or making some sort of wrapper library. I am sure there are other issues with design he will want resolved also -- Steven Edwards There is one thing stronger than all the armies in the world, and that is an idea whose time has come. - Victor Hugo
Wine, Darwine, CodeWeavers-- Intel MacOS X
Hello all, What's the story with wine on intel os x? It's barely mentioned in the wine wiki and on the darwine website (not at all on winehq). I'm under the impression darwine is concentrating on running wine on ppc/ darwin. I know codeweavers is working specifically on making wine on intel/darwin happen, however there is no status page anywhere. Just from keeping up with the mailing list, I've gleaned that Quartz and Core Audio are being worked on, in addition to a stack alignment patch. They seem to be pretty far along, but I don't really know. Are there any other intel/darwin areas that require attention or are being worked on? I'd like to add this info to the wine wiki. It seems odd that intel os x is sort of not officially recognized by wine, what with there being no mention of it on the download page, to do lists, or bugzilla... I know there're some politics involved, but it really should have more attention. Its existence is practically not even recognized by wine. At the least, that's turning away potential wine developers, and the thing is, the mac community could be all about wine with a little effort. Thanks, Will
re: Wine, Darwine, CodeWeavers-- Intel MacOS X
William Knopp writes: What's the story with wine on intel os x? A few people, including Codeweavers, are working on it. More would be welcome. There is no politics keeping people away, as far as I know. If you run into any developer who says that politics is keeping him or her from submitting patches to wine-patches, please let me know. - Dan
