subject:"\[WISPA\] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks"


At 06:35 PM 9/12/2007, Gino Villarini wrote:

Using dif radios for wifi and backhaul isn't mesh any more? How so?

I was under the impression that mesh was the ability of the equipment
to form a interconnection between the nodes with alternative paths to
the Internet feed 



I hate to be a pain.Marlon got me started in this industry.  He 
is a true wireless pioneer, not I.   But we have our differences...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesh_network

I'm sure our definitions and connotations of wireless mesh differ, 
and rightfully so.


Allen



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


At 10:44 AM 9/12/2007, D. Ryan Spott wrote:

and like a typical dot-com
they spent and expanded far faster than they should have 'cause hey, there's
a second round coming and when they went looking for that second round,
the large investor played their strategy and said no second round for you!


Ryan for some reason this post resonates within me like a church 
bell.  like a typical dot-com Happy Customers don't mean 
much.  Never have.  It's Happy Shareholders (investors) is where the 
money is.  Sorry if I'm a bit cynical or jaded


Allen



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
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** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


At 06:11 PM 9/12/2007, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

From the conversations I've had with people trying to use, or just 
around, mesh gear, it doesn't usually work very well once the 
network starts to come alive.  The old hub and spoke method works best.


But the entire Internet is a Mesh of sorts.  Remember back in the 
90's how the internet was designed to withstand a nuclear attack? 
(using lots of hub and spoke and routing for redundancy)  My old 
friend, lets cut  through the image of mesh.  What mesh is in my 
opinion is the elimination of tall vertical realestate (expensive) 
and the adoption of low vertical realestate (free) such as lightpoles 
and rooftops.  Mesh means routing rather than bridging. Instead of 
shooting high for big supercells, mesh is a series of microcells or 
picocells down low (cheap).  Instead of dumping money into towers and 
tower climbers (sorry Bob my friend) mesh is made of equipment in a 
non-special environment.


Now you might think that mesh means use of omni antennas... Not 
so.  maybe, maybe not.  To me mesh means communication between 
multiple nodes (places) that are connected to each other in a web 
(like the Internet)  Strix is on th right track.  But like so many 
manufacturers, they are better at shipping gear than designing 
business plans for others to invest in (like MobilePro).


But I do not believe in throwing out the baby with the 
bathwater.  Strix had something (before they laid off half their 
staff this month).  They chose folks like MOBL to cater to rather 
than you or me.  I believe there is a market for 900 rural mesh 
sub-muni networks.  Am I wrong?


Allen




Allen



Some of the new mesh gear uses different channels for broadcast 
vs. backhaul.  But that's not really mesh anymore, it's hub and 
spoke stuffed into a single box.


I'm told that if you insist on running mesh, at least make sure that 
it never goes more than 2 or 3 layers deep.


Personally, in your area, I'd run 900 to mini pops.  In the 
population centers I'd run small micro cells of wifi.  Good speeds, 
cheap installs, lots of flexibility etc.


It's good to see ya back.  This biz is like a good drug isn't 
it.  Once you are hooked, you can never get very far away.


grin

Marlon
(509) 982-2181
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - From: Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 9:16 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


I was a WISP in the late 90s and early 00s. Some of you may know 
me.  It's good to see many familiar faces still here.  In recent 
years, I have pursued new interests but I keep thinking back on my 
experiences as a WISP. I had a lot of good times back then.  I'm 
thinking about creeping back into the WISP business.


After I sold in 2004, I followed a new trend in wireless in the 
press called muni wireless promoted by manufacturers such as 
Strix and Tropos. This concept has taken some major blows in the 
press this month:


http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.htmlhttp://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20521155/
http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10view=newshttp://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?ne...2a10view=news
http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp...ng_sitedefault
http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/as-earthlink-el.htmlhttp://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/...thlink-el.html
http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6120

This hits close to home because the company who bought my WISP 
(ShreveNet) boasted being the largest WISP with the largest muni 
WIFI network in the nation in Tempe AZ (NeoReach aka Kite aka 
MobilePro) which sold these properties recently to Gobility.  (Big Yawn)..


http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/

I'm certainly am not posting this thread to defend or even discuss 
the somewhat failed muni wireless concept.  Some say it was a 
failure because of the model rather than technology, caused by 
giving away free service to the anchor tenant (the city) and so 
forth.  Whatever... I couldn't care less about the past or 
Earthlink or Google, or MobilePro or huge muni wifi networks.


However I am fascinated by the mesh technology in general, 
especially after witnessing the old Nokia collapsible bridged 
mesh networks of the 90s.  LOL, a lot has changed since then.  I 
often wonder how Dave Peterson and Ultramesh/locustworld turned 
out.  Once upon a time, he sold product to a WISP near me in Vivian 
LA to build the first mesh network in the US. He ended up with some 
heavy debt.  Also I knew of a WISP in Leesville LA using Wave 
Wireless (Speedcom) mesh gear with pretty good technical results, 
that is, for a single radio system

Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-12 Thread Travis Johnson


Hi,

The biggest problem I see when looking at mesh is having access to all 
those locations... people's homes, light poles, telephone poles, 
whatever. You now have to install UPS systems, rebooters, have the 
equipment some-what secure, etc.


Just the few repeaters we have at people's homes (with UPS, rebooter, 
etc.) are a real PITA compared to our tower locations. We don't have to 
wait for someone to be home and we don't have to worry about power issues.


Just my thoughts.

Travis
Microserv

Allen Marsalis wrote:

At 06:11 PM 9/12/2007, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

From the conversations I've had with people trying to use, or just 
around, mesh gear, it doesn't usually work very well once the network 
starts to come alive.  The old hub and spoke method works best.


But the entire Internet is a Mesh of sorts.  Remember back in the 90's 
how the internet was designed to withstand a nuclear attack? (using 
lots of hub and spoke and routing for redundancy)  My old friend, lets 
cut  through the image of mesh.  What mesh is in my opinion is the 
elimination of tall vertical realestate (expensive) and the adoption 
of low vertical realestate (free) such as lightpoles and rooftops.  
Mesh means routing rather than bridging. Instead of shooting high for 
big supercells, mesh is a series of microcells or picocells down low 
(cheap).  Instead of dumping money into towers and tower climbers 
(sorry Bob my friend) mesh is made of equipment in a non-special 
environment.


Now you might think that mesh means use of omni antennas... Not so.  
maybe, maybe not.  To me mesh means communication between multiple 
nodes (places) that are connected to each other in a web (like the 
Internet)  Strix is on th right track.  But like so many 
manufacturers, they are better at shipping gear than designing 
business plans for others to invest in (like MobilePro).


But I do not believe in throwing out the baby with the bathwater.  
Strix had something (before they laid off half their staff this 
month).  They chose folks like MOBL to cater to rather than you or 
me.  I believe there is a market for 900 rural mesh sub-muni 
networks.  Am I wrong?


Allen




Allen



Some of the new mesh gear uses different channels for broadcast vs. 
backhaul.  But that's not really mesh anymore, it's hub and spoke 
stuffed into a single box.


I'm told that if you insist on running mesh, at least make sure that 
it never goes more than 2 or 3 layers deep.


Personally, in your area, I'd run 900 to mini pops.  In the 
population centers I'd run small micro cells of wifi.  Good speeds, 
cheap installs, lots of flexibility etc.


It's good to see ya back.  This biz is like a good drug isn't it.  
Once you are hooked, you can never get very far away.


grin

Marlon
(509) 982-2181
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 
1999!

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - From: Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 9:16 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


I was a WISP in the late 90s and early 00s. Some of you may know 
me.  It's good to see many familiar faces still here.  In recent 
years, I have pursued new interests but I keep thinking back on my 
experiences as a WISP. I had a lot of good times back then.  I'm 
thinking about creeping back into the WISP business.


After I sold in 2004, I followed a new trend in wireless in the 
press called muni wireless promoted by manufacturers such as Strix 
and Tropos. This concept has taken some major blows in the press 
this month:


http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.htmlhttp://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.html 


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20521155/
http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10view=newshttp://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?ne...2a10view=news 


http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp...ng_sitedefault
http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/as-earthlink-el.htmlhttp://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/...thlink-el.html 


http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6120

This hits close to home because the company who bought my WISP 
(ShreveNet) boasted being the largest WISP with the largest muni 
WIFI network in the nation in Tempe AZ (NeoReach aka Kite aka 
MobilePro) which sold these properties recently to Gobility.  (Big 
Yawn)..


http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/ 



I'm certainly am not posting this thread to defend or even discuss 
the somewhat failed muni wireless concept.  Some say it was a 
failure because of the model rather than technology, caused by 
giving away free service to the anchor tenant (the city) and so 
forth.  Whatever... I couldn't care less about the past or Earthlink 
or Google, or MobilePro or huge muni wifi networks.


However I am

Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


At 12:13 AM 9/13/2007, Travis Johnson wrote:

Hi,

The biggest problem I see when looking at mesh is having access to 
all those locations... people's homes, light poles, telephone poles, 
whatever. You now have to install UPS systems, rebooters, have the 
equipment some-what secure, etc.


Bingo, I didn't say anything early on, but you hit the nail 
Travis.  The biggest problem I see is the un-even-ness of property 
ownership in my plan (rural tier 4 areas).  Fortunately as you move 
into a town, pieces of land keep getting smaller and smaller.  My 
only solution is to deviate from the use of omni antennas towards 
directional antennas to increase the distance between nodes from 1 
mile to maybe 2 to 4 miles between nodes.


But here are some very loose number regarding muni wifi.  By 
comparison to my plan, imagine 15 to 20 nodes per square mile at 
$2500 to $3500 per node.  Usinging standards based (generic) hardware 
I think I can reduce that cost to under $900 per node.  Now imagine 
if a 900MHz AP with omni works to 1 mile radius, or 2 miles 
circumference.  This is nearly 4 square miles of coverage for under 
$1k.  (less than $250 per square mile).


This is almost like averaging between the economics of fixed 
wireless and muni wifi networks.  But in my areas, that might lead 
to 4X success rates in site surveys..\


Allen



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-11 Thread lakeland

XXL  What are you going to do with it??  Make a tent  :-)

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 21:30:01 
To:WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

I was only about a half year off.  Not bad for an old man.  :)   I'm 
not sure I remember your youngest though.  A belated congratulations 
to you!  I know you are proud of them both.  My son is now a freshman 
in high school and has outgrown me already.  Homecoming is this 
Saturday.  Wow how time flies. My daughter is 9 and in a few more 
years, she might be taller than me as well..

Yeah got one of those old BreezeCom shirts in XXL?  That is, if they 
aren't collectors items by now... ;)

Allen

At 08:32 PM 9/10/2007, Patrick Leary wrote:
LOL. My girls are 6.5 and 4 now. They don't care much what the shirt
says so long as it has something sparkly on it. :)  And I have plenty of
old BreezeCOM shirts still.

Patrick

** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-11 Thread Jeff Broadwick

Nah, he uses it to hide the Romulan Ale when he goes to movies and ball
games.  :-) 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 8:12 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

XXL  What are you going to do with it??  Make a tent  :-)

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 21:30:01
To:WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

I was only about a half year off.  Not bad for an old man.  :)   I'm 
not sure I remember your youngest though.  A belated congratulations 
to you!  I know you are proud of them both.  My son is now a freshman 
in high school and has outgrown me already.  Homecoming is this 
Saturday.  Wow how time flies. My daughter is 9 and in a few more 
years, she might be taller than me as well..

Yeah got one of those old BreezeCom shirts in XXL?  That is, if they 
aren't collectors items by now... ;)

Allen

At 08:32 PM 9/10/2007, Patrick Leary wrote:
LOL. My girls are 6.5 and 4 now. They don't care much what the shirt
says so long as it has something sparkly on it. :)  And I have plenty of
old BreezeCOM shirts still.

Patrick

** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **

WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **

WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-11 Thread Allen Marsalis


At 08:21 AM 9/11/2007, Jeff Broadwick wrote:

Nah, he uses it to hide the Romulan Ale when he goes to movies and ball
games.  :-)


LOL, I haven't had any Romulan Ale in a while.   I needed a laugh.

Remember this one?  I used to have a life, now I have customers

I might add, Now I have no customers, so when do I get my life back?  :)

Allen




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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[WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

I was a WISP in the late 90s and early 00s. Some of you may know
me. It's good to see many familiar faces still here. In recent
years, I have pursued new interests but I keep thinking back on my
experiences as a WISP. I had a lot of good times back then. I'm
thinking about creeping back into the WISP business.

After I sold in 2004, I followed a new trend in wireless in the press
called muni wireless promoted by manufacturers such as Strix and
Tropos. This concept has taken some major blows in the press this month:

http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.htmlhttp://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20521155/
http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10view=newshttp://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?ne...2a10view=news

http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp...ng_sitedefault
http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/as-earthlink-el.htmlhttp://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/...thlink-el.html

http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6120

This hits close to home because the company who bought my WISP
(ShreveNet) boasted being the largest WISP with the largest muni WIFI
network in the nation in Tempe AZ (NeoReach aka Kite aka MobilePro)
which sold these properties recently to Gobility. (Big Yawn)..

http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/

I'm certainly am not posting this thread to defend or even discuss
the somewhat failed muni wireless concept. Some say it was a failure
because of the model rather than technology, caused by giving away
free service to the anchor tenant (the city) and so
forth. Whatever... I couldn't care less about the past or Earthlink
or Google, or MobilePro or huge muni wifi networks.

However I am fascinated by the mesh technology in general, especially
after witnessing the old Nokia collapsible bridged mesh networks of
the 90s. LOL, a lot has changed since then. I often wonder how Dave
Peterson and Ultramesh/locustworld turned out. Once upon a time, he
sold product to a WISP near me in Vivian LA to build the first mesh
network in the US. He ended up with some heavy debt. Also I knew of
a WISP in Leesville LA using Wave Wireless (Speedcom) mesh gear with
pretty good technical results, that is, for a single radio
system. I'm thinking more along the lines of multiple radio systems.

I am brainstorming a new WISP model and I am seeking feedback and
advice. The concept goes something like this. The muni network
model touted in the press had many flaws as I see it. Coming into an
urban market after DSL and Cable has to be a steep uphill climb. Yet
in 2007 there are still rural areas with no high speed solution in
sight, particularly in the wooded Southeast where the old wireless
models don't always work. I posted the following statistics to the
wireless boards nearly a decade ago as the results of my first 2.4GHz network.

In my area (Shreveport LA) 65 out of 100 business surveys came back
positive (35 negative) for LOS. This was made possible by multistory
buildings and large parking lots (lack of trees) Yet for residential
service, only 5 came back positive while 95 came back
negative. Clearly there is a tree issue in many residential parts of
the country. This is the market that has few if any options as many
keep hoping for DSL and cablemodem. Chainsaw jokes grow old fast around here.

Traditionally the tools for Foliar NLOS have been (a) the use of low
frequency spectrum to penetrate through the offending object, and (b)
route around the offending object by hopping around it, (c) increase
the power to try and punch through the offending objects. Add to
these maybe OFDM to use multipath interference to our advantage but I
see that as an Urban solution (reflections off buildings) more than a
foliar solution (reflections off trees) The 700mw SR9 combined with
a cheap SBCs and appropriate TCP routing protocols appears to go a
long way to make new things possible.

Please imagine a muni wireless mesh network that utilizes 900MHz
cards instead of 5.8 and 2.4 cards. Instead of nodes being 1000 feet
apart atop light poles, they are now spread 1 or 2 miles
apart. Instead of it taking 15 or 20 nodes to cover one square mile,
perhaps one node could cover 1 to 4 square miles. Could this be a
solution for wooded areas with low to moderate population
densities? In other words, do you know anyone who has ever built a
mesh network using SR9s and SBCs with multiple radios to achieve
redundancy and ubiquitous coverage for small towns in the
Southeast? And using no towers by the way, LOL? As I see it, the
SR9 has 4 non-overlapping channels at 5MHz each. Thats all I need. (I think)

No hub and spoke POPs off towers, please. Been there done that. I
don't think I could take that anymore. I'm not a climber and don't
wish to hire any climbers unless it is for aggregate backhaul PtP
which is fine. This post has nothing

Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-10 Thread Mike Hammett

Wow, I think the last time I saw this guy was WISPCON-Dallas...  the first 
one if there was more than one.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 11:16 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


I was a WISP in the late 90s and early 00s. Some of you may know me.  It's 
good to see many familiar faces still here.  In recent years, I have 
pursued new interests but I keep thinking back on my experiences as a WISP. 
I had a lot of good times back then.  I'm thinking about creeping back into 
the WISP business.


After I sold in 2004, I followed a new trend in wireless in the press 
called muni wireless promoted by manufacturers such as Strix and Tropos. 
This concept has taken some major blows in the press this month:


http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.htmlhttp://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20521155/
http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10view=newshttp://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?ne...2a10view=news
http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp...ng_sitedefault
http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/as-earthlink-el.htmlhttp://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/...thlink-el.html
http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6120

This hits close to home because the company who bought my WISP (ShreveNet) 
boasted being the largest WISP with the largest muni WIFI network in the 
nation in Tempe AZ (NeoReach aka Kite aka MobilePro) which sold these 
properties recently to Gobility.  (Big Yawn)..


http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/

I'm certainly am not posting this thread to defend or even discuss the 
somewhat failed muni wireless concept.  Some say it was a failure because 
of the model rather than technology, caused by giving away free service to 
the anchor tenant (the city) and so forth.  Whatever... I couldn't care 
less about the past or Earthlink or Google, or MobilePro or huge muni wifi 
networks.


However I am fascinated by the mesh technology in general, especially 
after witnessing the old Nokia collapsible bridged mesh networks of the 
90s.  LOL, a lot has changed since then.  I often wonder how Dave Peterson 
and Ultramesh/locustworld turned out.  Once upon a time, he sold product 
to a WISP near me in Vivian LA to build the first mesh network in the US. 
He ended up with some heavy debt.  Also I knew of a WISP in Leesville LA 
using Wave Wireless (Speedcom) mesh gear with pretty good technical 
results, that is, for a single radio system.  I'm thinking more along the 
lines of multiple radio systems.


I am brainstorming a new WISP model and I am seeking feedback and advice. 
The concept goes something like this.  The muni network model touted in 
the press had many flaws as I see it.  Coming into an urban market after 
DSL and Cable has to be a steep uphill climb. Yet in 2007 there are still 
rural areas with no high speed solution in sight, particularly in the 
wooded Southeast where the old wireless models don't always work.  I 
posted the following statistics to the wireless boards nearly a decade ago 
as the results of my first 2.4GHz network.


In my area (Shreveport LA) 65 out of 100 business surveys came back 
positive (35 negative) for LOS. This was made possible by multistory 
buildings and large parking lots (lack of trees) Yet for residential 
service, only 5 came back positive while 95 came back negative.  Clearly 
there is a tree issue in many residential parts of the country.  This is 
the market that has few if any options as many keep hoping for DSL and 
cablemodem. Chainsaw jokes grow old fast around here.


Traditionally the tools for Foliar NLOS have been (a) the use of low 
frequency spectrum to penetrate through the offending object, and (b) 
route around the offending object by hopping around it, (c) increase the 
power to try and punch through the offending objects.  Add to these maybe 
OFDM to use multipath interference to our advantage but I see that as an 
Urban solution (reflections off buildings) more than a foliar solution 
(reflections off trees)  The 700mw SR9 combined with a cheap SBCs and 
appropriate TCP routing protocols appears to go a long way to make new 
things possible.


Please imagine a muni wireless mesh network that utilizes 900MHz cards 
instead of 5.8 and 2.4 cards.  Instead of nodes being 1000 feet apart atop 
light poles, they are now spread 1 or 2 miles apart.  Instead of it taking 
15 or 20 nodes to cover one square mile, perhaps one node could cover 1 to 
4 square miles.  Could this be a solution for wooded areas with low to 
moderate population densities?  In other words, do you know anyone who has 
ever built a mesh network using SR9s and SBCs with multiple radios to 
achieve redundancy and ubiquitous coverage for small towns in the 
Southeast?  And using

Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-10 Thread lakeland

OMG!

I guess you dont love me anymore because you dont return my emails

:-(


Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:16:57 
To:wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


I was a WISP in the late 90s and early 00s. Some of you may know 
me.  It's good to see many familiar faces still here.  In recent 
years, I have pursued new interests but I keep thinking back on my 
experiences as a WISP.  I had a lot of good times back then.  I'm 
thinking about creeping back into the WISP business.

After I sold in 2004, I followed a new trend in wireless in the press 
called muni wireless promoted by manufacturers such as Strix and 
Tropos.  This concept has taken some major blows in the press this month:

http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.htmlhttp://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20521155/
http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10view=newshttp://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?ne...2a10view=news
 

http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp...ng_sitedefault
http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/as-earthlink-el.htmlhttp://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/...thlink-el.html
 

http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6120

This hits close to home because the company who bought my WISP 
(ShreveNet) boasted being the largest WISP with the largest muni WIFI 
network in the nation in Tempe AZ (NeoReach aka Kite aka MobilePro) 
which sold these properties recently to Gobility.  (Big Yawn)..

http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/

I'm certainly am not posting this thread to defend or even discuss 
the somewhat failed muni wireless concept.  Some say it was a failure 
because of the model rather than technology, caused by giving away 
free service to the anchor tenant (the city) and so 
forth.  Whatever... I couldn't care less about the past or Earthlink 
or Google, or MobilePro or huge muni wifi networks.

However I am fascinated by the mesh technology in general, especially 
after witnessing the old Nokia collapsible bridged mesh networks of 
the 90s.  LOL, a lot has changed since then.  I often wonder how Dave 
Peterson and Ultramesh/locustworld turned out.  Once upon a time, he 
sold product to a WISP near me in Vivian LA to build the first mesh 
network in the US. He ended up with some heavy debt.  Also I knew of 
a WISP in Leesville LA using Wave Wireless (Speedcom) mesh gear with 
pretty good technical results, that is, for a single radio 
system.  I'm thinking more along the lines of multiple radio systems.

I am brainstorming a new WISP model and I am seeking feedback and 
advice.  The concept goes something like this.  The muni network 
model touted in the press had many flaws as I see it.  Coming into an 
urban market after DSL and Cable has to be a steep uphill climb. Yet 
in 2007 there are still rural areas with no high speed solution in 
sight, particularly in the wooded Southeast where the old wireless 
models don't always work.  I posted the following statistics to the 
wireless boards nearly a decade ago as the results of my first 2.4GHz network.

In my area (Shreveport LA) 65 out of 100 business surveys came back 
positive (35 negative) for LOS. This was made possible by multistory 
buildings and large parking lots (lack of trees) Yet for residential 
service, only 5 came back positive while 95 came back 
negative.  Clearly there is a tree issue in many residential parts of 
the country.  This is the market that has few if any options as many 
keep hoping for DSL and cablemodem. Chainsaw jokes grow old fast around here.

Traditionally the tools for Foliar NLOS have been (a) the use of low 
frequency spectrum to penetrate through the offending object, and (b) 
route around the offending object by hopping around it, (c) increase 
the power to try and punch through the offending objects.  Add to 
these maybe OFDM to use multipath interference to our advantage but I 
see that as an Urban solution (reflections off buildings) more than a 
foliar solution (reflections off trees)  The 700mw SR9 combined with 
a cheap SBCs and appropriate TCP routing protocols appears to go a 
long way to make new things possible.

Please imagine a muni wireless mesh network that utilizes 900MHz 
cards instead of 5.8 and 2.4 cards.  Instead of nodes being 1000 feet 
apart atop light poles, they are now spread 1 or 2 miles 
apart.  Instead of it taking 15 or 20 nodes to cover one square mile, 
perhaps one node could cover 1 to 4 square miles.  Could this be a 
solution for wooded areas with low to moderate population 
densities?  In other words, do you know anyone who has ever built a 
mesh network using SR9s and SBCs with multiple radios to achieve 
redundancy and ubiquitous coverage for small towns in the 
Southeast?  And using no towers by the way, LOL?  As I see it, the 
SR9 has 4 non

Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-10 Thread Bob Moldashel

YeahThat was him  And yes..it was the first one. Because I was 
at the second one ( I think) and he banged in sick for the show  (or 
something...)


:-)

-B-




Mike Hammett wrote:
Wow, I think the last time I saw this guy was WISPCON-Dallas...  the 
first one if there was more than one.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - From: Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 11:16 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


I was a WISP in the late 90s and early 00s. Some of you may know me.  
It's good to see many familiar faces still here.  In recent years, I 
have pursued new interests but I keep thinking back on my experiences 
as a WISP. I had a lot of good times back then.  I'm thinking about 
creeping back into the WISP business.


After I sold in 2004, I followed a new trend in wireless in the press 
called muni wireless promoted by manufacturers such as Strix and 
Tropos. This concept has taken some major blows in the press this month:


http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.htmlhttp://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.html 


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20521155/
http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10view=newshttp://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?ne...2a10view=news 


http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp...ng_sitedefault
http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/as-earthlink-el.htmlhttp://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/...thlink-el.html 


http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6120

This hits close to home because the company who bought my WISP 
(ShreveNet) boasted being the largest WISP with the largest muni WIFI 
network in the nation in Tempe AZ (NeoReach aka Kite aka MobilePro) 
which sold these properties recently to Gobility.  (Big Yawn)..


http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/ 



I'm certainly am not posting this thread to defend or even discuss 
the somewhat failed muni wireless concept.  Some say it was a failure 
because of the model rather than technology, caused by giving away 
free service to the anchor tenant (the city) and so forth.  
Whatever... I couldn't care less about the past or Earthlink or 
Google, or MobilePro or huge muni wifi networks.


However I am fascinated by the mesh technology in general, especially 
after witnessing the old Nokia collapsible bridged mesh networks of 
the 90s.  LOL, a lot has changed since then.  I often wonder how Dave 
Peterson and Ultramesh/locustworld turned out.  Once upon a time, he 
sold product to a WISP near me in Vivian LA to build the first mesh 
network in the US. He ended up with some heavy debt.  Also I knew of 
a WISP in Leesville LA using Wave Wireless (Speedcom) mesh gear with 
pretty good technical results, that is, for a single radio system.  
I'm thinking more along the lines of multiple radio systems.


I am brainstorming a new WISP model and I am seeking feedback and 
advice. The concept goes something like this.  The muni network model 
touted in the press had many flaws as I see it.  Coming into an urban 
market after DSL and Cable has to be a steep uphill climb. Yet in 
2007 there are still rural areas with no high speed solution in 
sight, particularly in the wooded Southeast where the old wireless 
models don't always work.  I posted the following statistics to the 
wireless boards nearly a decade ago as the results of my first 2.4GHz 
network.


In my area (Shreveport LA) 65 out of 100 business surveys came back 
positive (35 negative) for LOS. This was made possible by multistory 
buildings and large parking lots (lack of trees) Yet for residential 
service, only 5 came back positive while 95 came back negative.  
Clearly there is a tree issue in many residential parts of the 
country.  This is the market that has few if any options as many keep 
hoping for DSL and cablemodem. Chainsaw jokes grow old fast around here.


Traditionally the tools for Foliar NLOS have been (a) the use of low 
frequency spectrum to penetrate through the offending object, and (b) 
route around the offending object by hopping around it, (c) increase 
the power to try and punch through the offending objects.  Add to 
these maybe OFDM to use multipath interference to our advantage but I 
see that as an Urban solution (reflections off buildings) more than a 
foliar solution (reflections off trees)  The 700mw SR9 combined with 
a cheap SBCs and appropriate TCP routing protocols appears to go a 
long way to make new things possible.


Please imagine a muni wireless mesh network that utilizes 900MHz 
cards instead of 5.8 and 2.4 cards.  Instead of nodes being 1000 feet 
apart atop light poles, they are now spread 1 or 2 miles apart.  
Instead of it taking 15 or 20 nodes to cover one square mile, perhaps 
one node could cover 1 to 4 square miles.  Could this be a solution 
for wooded areas with low to moderate population densities

RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-10 Thread Gino Villarini

Wow! Im witnessing the return of a pioneer!

Welcome back

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Allen Marsalis
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 12:17 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

I was a WISP in the late 90s and early 00s. Some of you may know 
me.  It's good to see many familiar faces still here.  In recent 
years, I have pursued new interests but I keep thinking back on my 
experiences as a WISP.  I had a lot of good times back then.  I'm 
thinking about creeping back into the WISP business.

After I sold in 2004, I followed a new trend in wireless in the press 
called muni wireless promoted by manufacturers such as Strix and 
Tropos.  This concept has taken some major blows in the press this
month:

http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.htmlhttp://wifinetnews.com/arch
ives/007869.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20521155/
http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788id=e9381817-0593-417a-86
39-c4c53e2a2a10view=newshttp://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?ne...2a10vi
ew=news 

http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp...ng_sitedefault
http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/as-earthlink-el.htmlhttp://www.all
eyinsider.com/2007/08/...thlink-el.html 

http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6120

This hits close to home because the company who bought my WISP 
(ShreveNet) boasted being the largest WISP with the largest muni WIFI 
network in the nation in Tempe AZ (NeoReach aka Kite aka MobilePro) 
which sold these properties recently to Gobility.  (Big Yawn)..

http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/http://www.bbwexchange.com/wir
eless_isp/

I'm certainly am not posting this thread to defend or even discuss 
the somewhat failed muni wireless concept.  Some say it was a failure 
because of the model rather than technology, caused by giving away 
free service to the anchor tenant (the city) and so 
forth.  Whatever... I couldn't care less about the past or Earthlink 
or Google, or MobilePro or huge muni wifi networks.

However I am fascinated by the mesh technology in general, especially 
after witnessing the old Nokia collapsible bridged mesh networks of 
the 90s.  LOL, a lot has changed since then.  I often wonder how Dave 
Peterson and Ultramesh/locustworld turned out.  Once upon a time, he 
sold product to a WISP near me in Vivian LA to build the first mesh 
network in the US. He ended up with some heavy debt.  Also I knew of 
a WISP in Leesville LA using Wave Wireless (Speedcom) mesh gear with 
pretty good technical results, that is, for a single radio 
system.  I'm thinking more along the lines of multiple radio systems.

I am brainstorming a new WISP model and I am seeking feedback and 
advice.  The concept goes something like this.  The muni network 
model touted in the press had many flaws as I see it.  Coming into an 
urban market after DSL and Cable has to be a steep uphill climb. Yet 
in 2007 there are still rural areas with no high speed solution in 
sight, particularly in the wooded Southeast where the old wireless 
models don't always work.  I posted the following statistics to the 
wireless boards nearly a decade ago as the results of my first 2.4GHz
network.

In my area (Shreveport LA) 65 out of 100 business surveys came back 
positive (35 negative) for LOS. This was made possible by multistory 
buildings and large parking lots (lack of trees) Yet for residential 
service, only 5 came back positive while 95 came back 
negative.  Clearly there is a tree issue in many residential parts of 
the country.  This is the market that has few if any options as many 
keep hoping for DSL and cablemodem. Chainsaw jokes grow old fast around
here.

Traditionally the tools for Foliar NLOS have been (a) the use of low 
frequency spectrum to penetrate through the offending object, and (b) 
route around the offending object by hopping around it, (c) increase 
the power to try and punch through the offending objects.  Add to 
these maybe OFDM to use multipath interference to our advantage but I 
see that as an Urban solution (reflections off buildings) more than a 
foliar solution (reflections off trees)  The 700mw SR9 combined with 
a cheap SBCs and appropriate TCP routing protocols appears to go a 
long way to make new things possible.

Please imagine a muni wireless mesh network that utilizes 900MHz 
cards instead of 5.8 and 2.4 cards.  Instead of nodes being 1000 feet 
apart atop light poles, they are now spread 1 or 2 miles 
apart.  Instead of it taking 15 or 20 nodes to cover one square mile, 
perhaps one node could cover 1 to 4 square miles.  Could this be a 
solution for wooded areas with low to moderate population 
densities?  In other words, do you know anyone who has ever built a 
mesh network using SR9s and SBCs with multiple radios to achieve 
redundancy and ubiquitous coverage for small towns

RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-10 Thread Gino Villarini

You 900 idea souns interesting, but youll need a 900 muni client and/or
900 pcmcia card for customers

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Allen Marsalis
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 12:17 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

I was a WISP in the late 90s and early 00s. Some of you may know 
me.  It's good to see many familiar faces still here.  In recent 
years, I have pursued new interests but I keep thinking back on my 
experiences as a WISP.  I had a lot of good times back then.  I'm 
thinking about creeping back into the WISP business.

After I sold in 2004, I followed a new trend in wireless in the press 
called muni wireless promoted by manufacturers such as Strix and 
Tropos.  This concept has taken some major blows in the press this
month:

http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.htmlhttp://wifinetnews.com/arch
ives/007869.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20521155/
http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788id=e9381817-0593-417a-86
39-c4c53e2a2a10view=newshttp://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?ne...2a10vi
ew=news 

http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp...ng_sitedefault
http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/as-earthlink-el.htmlhttp://www.all
eyinsider.com/2007/08/...thlink-el.html 

http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6120

This hits close to home because the company who bought my WISP 
(ShreveNet) boasted being the largest WISP with the largest muni WIFI 
network in the nation in Tempe AZ (NeoReach aka Kite aka MobilePro) 
which sold these properties recently to Gobility.  (Big Yawn)..

http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/http://www.bbwexchange.com/wir
eless_isp/

I'm certainly am not posting this thread to defend or even discuss 
the somewhat failed muni wireless concept.  Some say it was a failure 
because of the model rather than technology, caused by giving away 
free service to the anchor tenant (the city) and so 
forth.  Whatever... I couldn't care less about the past or Earthlink 
or Google, or MobilePro or huge muni wifi networks.

However I am fascinated by the mesh technology in general, especially 
after witnessing the old Nokia collapsible bridged mesh networks of 
the 90s.  LOL, a lot has changed since then.  I often wonder how Dave 
Peterson and Ultramesh/locustworld turned out.  Once upon a time, he 
sold product to a WISP near me in Vivian LA to build the first mesh 
network in the US. He ended up with some heavy debt.  Also I knew of 
a WISP in Leesville LA using Wave Wireless (Speedcom) mesh gear with 
pretty good technical results, that is, for a single radio 
system.  I'm thinking more along the lines of multiple radio systems.

I am brainstorming a new WISP model and I am seeking feedback and 
advice.  The concept goes something like this.  The muni network 
model touted in the press had many flaws as I see it.  Coming into an 
urban market after DSL and Cable has to be a steep uphill climb. Yet 
in 2007 there are still rural areas with no high speed solution in 
sight, particularly in the wooded Southeast where the old wireless 
models don't always work.  I posted the following statistics to the 
wireless boards nearly a decade ago as the results of my first 2.4GHz
network.

In my area (Shreveport LA) 65 out of 100 business surveys came back 
positive (35 negative) for LOS. This was made possible by multistory 
buildings and large parking lots (lack of trees) Yet for residential 
service, only 5 came back positive while 95 came back 
negative.  Clearly there is a tree issue in many residential parts of 
the country.  This is the market that has few if any options as many 
keep hoping for DSL and cablemodem. Chainsaw jokes grow old fast around
here.

Traditionally the tools for Foliar NLOS have been (a) the use of low 
frequency spectrum to penetrate through the offending object, and (b) 
route around the offending object by hopping around it, (c) increase 
the power to try and punch through the offending objects.  Add to 
these maybe OFDM to use multipath interference to our advantage but I 
see that as an Urban solution (reflections off buildings) more than a 
foliar solution (reflections off trees)  The 700mw SR9 combined with 
a cheap SBCs and appropriate TCP routing protocols appears to go a 
long way to make new things possible.

Please imagine a muni wireless mesh network that utilizes 900MHz 
cards instead of 5.8 and 2.4 cards.  Instead of nodes being 1000 feet 
apart atop light poles, they are now spread 1 or 2 miles 
apart.  Instead of it taking 15 or 20 nodes to cover one square mile, 
perhaps one node could cover 1 to 4 square miles.  Could this be a 
solution for wooded areas with low to moderate population 
densities?  In other words, do you know anyone who has ever built a 
mesh network using SR9s and SBCs with multiple radios to achieve 
redundancy

Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


At 11:29 AM 9/10/2007, you wrote:
Wow, I think the last time I saw this guy was WISPCON-Dallas...  the 
first one if there was more than one.


That was me.  There is only one me, that's for sure.  :)Dallas 
WISPCON was my last convention.


Allen



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


At 11:42 AM 9/10/2007, Bob Moldashel wrote:
YeahThat was him  And yes..it was the first one. Because I 
was at the second one ( I think) and he banged in sick for the 
show  (or something...)


Bob I remember missing you in Chicago but not Dallas.  If I ever knew 
you were in Dallas, I'd be there just to meet you face to face for 
the first time.


Allen



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


At 11:42 AM 9/10/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

OMG!

I guess you dont love me anymore because you dont return my emails

:-(



I do love you Bob and I'm truly sorry about that.   Around '04 I used 
to spend about 4 to 6 hours a day on email and my new boss put an end 
to all that.  After I quit, I bounced around between many email 
addresses and fell into an email funk.  My old shreve.net address 
seems to be working now so I dusted it off to give it a try.  Last 
month I accidently wiped out my bandwise account..  Not making 
excuses, its my fault.  I tried to call you a few weeks ago to chat 
but dropped the ball again.  I've made many mistakes lately.


But I just can't stop thinking about wireless!  ;)

Allen



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


At 11:49 AM 9/10/2007, you wrote:

You 900 idea souns interesting, but youll need a 900 muni client and/or
900 pcmcia card for customers



Thanks much for the reply Gino.  My idea is like muni wireless in 
that there really is no CPE per se.  With muni wifi, each node is on 
top of a light pole or building.  With my idea, I would place a pole 
in the yard (or rooftop) of select customers to form the NLOS 
mesh.  Each box would have at least two 900MHz cards plus one wifi 
card for the customer to access using a laptop (or desktop with cheap 
wifi adapter).  Like with muni wifi, I would own all the rooftop and 
poletop outdoor gear.


But in a sense you are correct.  In fact it would be more like two 
900 cards per customer if you are not at the edge of the mesh.  I'm 
able to get 0.1 miles of NLOS using wifi so in theory, next door 
neighbors may not need any 900 (not be a node in the mesh)


One goal is to reduce the need for towers.  A climber fell to his 
death here only a few months ago, and I can't afford expensive tower 
space and climbers anyway.  I'd rather put that capital in to more 
gear to grow the mesh organically.


I take it that nobody has ever built a 900MHz NLOS mesh network 
before.  Which is not a good sign to me.  That's a sign that my idea 
probably won't work.


Allen





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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

Allen:

Metricom did.

Thanks,

Steve

On 9/10/07, Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

snip

 I take it that nobody has ever built a 900MHz NLOS mesh network
 before.  Which is not a good sign to me.  That's a sign that my idea
 probably won't work.

 Allen



-- 

Steve Stroh
425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com


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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-10 Thread George Rogato

So does this mean that you now agree with me that little wireless cards 
can be used for wireless broadband?


George

:)


Allen Marsalis wrote:

At 11:49 AM 9/10/2007, you wrote:

You 900 idea souns interesting, but youll need a 900 muni client and/or
900 pcmcia card for customers






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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


At 12:56 PM 9/10/2007, Steve Stroh wrote:

Allen:

Metricom did.

Thanks,

Steve


Thanks for the reply Steve.  Can you share if they were able to make 
it work or not?  Any info would be greatly appreciated.


Allen



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RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-10 Thread Joel White

Alan,

There is a second manufacture of 900 Mini-Pci cards which is Zcomax. The two
(ubnt and Zcomax don't talk because of different center frequencies. Zcomax is
what Tranzeo is using in there 900 products, so this may be a good way to go,
with the ability to have pre-manufactured client radios. What I have found
with any Atheros card running 5Mhz channels, is that if you scan from another,
you will see the first card transmitting on a channel about 20mhz away. This
transmit is about 20dB less than the primary, but still prevalently there. I
think you could see some issues because of this, and I wonder what frequency
that ends up being when the 900 card is a re-badge of 2.4. To explain this
better, channel 6 on 2.4 is 906 on the ubiquity cards I believe. If I then
scan and see a signature at 2457, what frequency is that on the 900
conversion? It is probably in the high 800 range by my estimate. There are
definitely some issues there.

Also, I have seen better connections with Motorola 900 than with the put
togethers. I do think your idea is something worth while, and I've thought
about something similar myself. I am also familiar with the Muni-market, and
the downfalls, and the good ideas of it. If you remember me, you know I worked
for one of them. In fact, I worked under you I believe!!

Good to see you back.

Joel White
NexGenAccess Inc.
www.nexgenaccess.com
740-513-4122

NexGenAccess Inc. http://www.nexgenaccess.com


-- Original Message ---
From: Gino Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:49:35 -0400
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

 You 900 idea souns interesting, but youll need a 900 muni client and/or
 900 pcmcia card for customers
 
 Gino A. Villarini
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 On Behalf Of Allen Marsalis Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 12:17 
 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
 
 I was a WISP in the late 90s and early 00s. Some of you may know 
 me.  It's good to see many familiar faces still here.  In recent 
 years, I have pursued new interests but I keep thinking back on my 
 experiences as a WISP.  I had a lot of good times back then.  I'm 
 thinking about creeping back into the WISP business.
 
 After I sold in 2004, I followed a new trend in wireless in the 
 press called muni wireless promoted by manufacturers such as Strix 
 and Tropos.  This concept has taken some major blows in the press 
 this month:
 
 http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.htmlhttp://wifinetnews.com/arch
 ives/007869.html
 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20521155/
 http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788id=e9381817-0593-
 417a-86 
 39-c4c53e2a2a10view=newshttp://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?ne...2a10vi
 ew=news
 
 http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp...ng_sitedefault
 http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/as-earthlink-el.htmlhttp://www.all
 eyinsider.com/2007/08/...thlink-el.html
 
 http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6120
 
 This hits close to home because the company who bought my WISP
 
 (ShreveNet) boasted being the largest WISP with the largest muni 
 WIFI network in the nation in Tempe AZ (NeoReach aka Kite aka 
 MobilePro) which sold these properties recently to Gobility.  (Big 
 Yawn)..
 
 http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/http://www.bbwexchange.com/wir
 eless_isp/
 
 I'm certainly am not posting this thread to defend or even discuss 
 the somewhat failed muni wireless concept.  Some say it was a 
 failure because of the model rather than technology, caused by 
 giving away free service to the anchor tenant (the city) and so 
 forth.  Whatever... I couldn't care less about the past or Earthlink 
 or Google, or MobilePro or huge muni wifi networks.
 
 However I am fascinated by the mesh technology in general, 
 especially after witnessing the old Nokia collapsible bridged mesh 
 networks of the 90s.  LOL, a lot has changed since then.  I often 
 wonder how Dave Peterson and Ultramesh/locustworld turned out.  Once 
 upon a time, he sold product to a WISP near me in Vivian LA to build 
 the first mesh network in the US. He ended up with some heavy debt.  
 Also I knew of a WISP in Leesville LA using Wave Wireless (Speedcom) 
 mesh gear with pretty good technical results, that is, for a single 
 radio system.  I'm thinking more along the lines of multiple radio systems.
 
 I am brainstorming a new WISP model and I am seeking feedback and 
 advice.  The concept goes something like this.  The muni network 
 model touted in the press had many flaws as I see it.  Coming into 
 an urban market after DSL and Cable has to be a steep uphill climb. 
 Yet in 2007 there are still rural areas with no high speed solution 
 in sight, particularly in the wooded Southeast where the old 
 wireless models don't always work.  I posted

Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-10 Thread David E. Smith


Allen Marsalis wrote:

I take it that nobody has ever built a 900MHz NLOS mesh network before.  
Which is not a good sign to me.  That's a sign that my idea probably 
won't work.


I'd be very skeptical just because of what I lovingly call the Tropos 
Effect.


Obviously, all these nodes eventually have to come back to... somewhere 
that has a big bad Internet connection. Your office, a central tower, 
whatever. If you're near that tower, you don't have much of a problem, 
as your laptop is talking to a node that's talking directly to that 
point of origin. If you're a few blocks away, where your laptop talks to 
a node that's two or three hops away, there's cumulative bandwidth loss 
and added latency, and just more things that can go wrong generally.


Your proposal gets rid of the worst part of how Tropos does things. They 
use the same radio both for inter-node communication and for customers, 
same SSID, same everything; by using separate radios for backhaul and 
customer access, you're already coming out ahead.


There will still be added overhead and latency, the more nodes you have 
to go through, and the folks at the farthest reaches of the network 
won't have as good an experience as the folks close to your point of origin.


I'm a bit skeptical. The expense of 900MHz gear, and the sheer number of 
units you'd need to for a wide coverage area, makes this seem like a 
really difficult idea to pull off. Nevertheless, I wish you luck, if you 
do choose to deploy something like that.


David Smith
MVN.net


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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


At 01:02 PM 9/10/2007, George Rogato wrote:
So does this mean that you now agree with me that little wireless 
cards can be used for wireless broadband?


George

:)



Yes George I do.  In fact I used pcmcia cards back in '03 and '04 at 
ShreveNet for residential pops with good results after we got the 
bugs out.  I'm sure there was a time I felt differently about 
cards.  Sorry if I ever gave you a hard time about it.


Allen



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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-10 Thread Joel White

Metricom was one of the ones that we were uninstalling in Tempe. i.e. out of
business.

I don't know if that was technical issues or management or a combo of both.

Joel White
NexGenAccess Inc.
www.nexgenaccess.com
740-513-4122

NexGenAccess Inc. http://www.nexgenaccess.com


-- Original Message ---
From: Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:05:20 -0500
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

 At 12:56 PM 9/10/2007, Steve Stroh wrote:
 Allen:
 
 Metricom did.
 
 Thanks,
 
 Steve
 
 Thanks for the reply Steve.  Can you share if they were able to make 
 it work or not?  Any info would be greatly appreciated.
 
 Allen
 
 
 
 ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 
 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA 
   www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE 
 Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use 
 Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
 http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
--- End of Original Message ---



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RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

Wow thanks for the info Joel.  I bought a couple of SR9's last week 
and I'm experimenting now.  I might need a 900MHz range spectrum 
analyzer for this one.  :)


Re: In fact, I worked under you I believe!!

LOL, well sort of.  There was no budget, so my job was pretty weird 
while it lasted.  Bruce S. sniped my position which I always thought 
was a good thing given the circumstances surrounding the death spiral 
toxic financing deals.  Doesn't look like he was able to save the day 
with his muni wifi program.


Did you move to Tempe?  Are you back in Ohio?  I should probably call 
Paul this week and see what's happening.  I hope he isn't too 
depressed over the deal like I am (or was)  :)


Allen



At 01:05 PM 9/10/2007, Joel White wrote:

Alan,

There is a second manufacture of 900 Mini-Pci cards which is Zcomax. The two
(ubnt and Zcomax don't talk because of different center frequencies. Zcomax is
what Tranzeo is using in there 900 products, so this may be a good way to go,
with the ability to have pre-manufactured client radios. What I have found
with any Atheros card running 5Mhz channels, is that if you scan from another,
you will see the first card transmitting on a channel about 20mhz away. This
transmit is about 20dB less than the primary, but still prevalently there. I
think you could see some issues because of this, and I wonder what frequency
that ends up being when the 900 card is a re-badge of 2.4. To explain this
better, channel 6 on 2.4 is 906 on the ubiquity cards I believe. If I then
scan and see a signature at 2457, what frequency is that on the 900
conversion? It is probably in the high 800 range by my estimate. There are
definitely some issues there.

Also, I have seen better connections with Motorola 900 than with the put
togethers. I do think your idea is something worth while, and I've thought
about something similar myself. I am also familiar with the Muni-market, and
the downfalls, and the good ideas of it. If you remember me, you know I worked
for one of them. In fact, I worked under you I believe!!

Good to see you back.

Joel White
NexGenAccess Inc.
www.nexgenaccess.com
740-513-4122

NexGenAccess Inc. http://www.nexgenaccess.com


-- Original Message ---
From: Gino Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:49:35 -0400
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

 You 900 idea souns interesting, but youll need a 900 muni client and/or
 900 pcmcia card for customers

 Gino A. Villarini
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of Allen Marsalis Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 12:17
 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

 I was a WISP in the late 90s and early 00s. Some of you may know
 me.  It's good to see many familiar faces still here.  In recent
 years, I have pursued new interests but I keep thinking back on my
 experiences as a WISP.  I had a lot of good times back then.  I'm
 thinking about creeping back into the WISP business.

 After I sold in 2004, I followed a new trend in wireless in the
 press called muni wireless promoted by manufacturers such as Strix
 and Tropos.  This concept has taken some major blows in the press
 this month:

 http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.htmlhttp://wifinetnews.com/arch
 ives/007869.html
 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20521155/
 
http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788id=e9381817-0593-http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788id=e9381817-0593- 
417a-86 
39-c4c53e2a2a10view=newshttp://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?ne...2a10vi

 ew=news

 http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp...ng_sitedefault
 http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/as-earthlink-el.htmlhttp://www.all
 eyinsider.com/2007/08/...thlink-el.html

 http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6120

 This hits close to home because the company who bought my WISP

 (ShreveNet) boasted being the largest WISP with the largest muni
 WIFI network in the nation in Tempe AZ (NeoReach aka Kite aka
 MobilePro) which sold these properties recently to Gobility.  (Big
 Yawn)..

 http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/http://www.bbwexchange.com/wir
 eless_isp/

 I'm certainly am not posting this thread to defend or even discuss
 the somewhat failed muni wireless concept.  Some say it was a
 failure because of the model rather than technology, caused by
 giving away free service to the anchor tenant (the city) and so
 forth.  Whatever... I couldn't care less about the past or Earthlink
 or Google, or MobilePro or huge muni wifi networks.

 However I am fascinated by the mesh technology in general,
 especially after witnessing the old Nokia collapsible bridged mesh
 networks of the 90s.  LOL, a lot has changed since then.  I often
 wonder how Dave Peterson and Ultramesh/locustworld turned out.  Once
 upon a time, he sold product

Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-10 Thread George Rogato

I'm glad your still around the industry Allen, every one in a while 
someone says, Where's Allen M? Makes us wonder.
Myself, I would only look at 900 as a temporary frequency to use. Maybe 
a couple years, more in the very rural areas and less urban wise.


Too many others are using 900 or starting to use it. Electric and water 
companies for meter reading, walmart and other bigbox for id and our 
portable phones still use 900 even when their 2.4 or 5.8.


So if building something out and realizing it has a short time span 
works. Then 900 is workable.



George


Allen Marsalis wrote:

At 01:02 PM 9/10/2007, George Rogato wrote:
So does this mean that you now agree with me that little wireless 
cards can be used for wireless broadband?


George

:)



Yes George I do.  In fact I used pcmcia cards back in '03 and '04 at 
ShreveNet for residential pops with good results after we got the bugs 
out.  I'm sure there was a time I felt differently about cards.  Sorry 
if I ever gave you a hard time about it.


Allen

 



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **

** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


 


WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-10 Thread John Valenti


Allen,

It sounds as if you might be proposing this for a suburban or even  
tree filled urban environment. One problem you might run into is  
clear spectrum in 900MHz.  I've use Trango gear out in rural areas,  
where it works OK. I've only done a few scans in the city (East  
Lansing and Lansing, specifically). Both of those scans were so  
depressing I never tried making any links with 900 in town. All the  
channels were what the Trango manual calls unsuitable.


I have a few of the SR9 cards and am just starting to work with them.  
I read somewhere that Trango (for example) rejects interference  
better than the SR9. No personal experience one way or another yet.


My new rule of thumb with Trango is that I can go 2 miles.  This is  
with AP's at 80 - 130' AGL, pretty flat ground, but quite a few  
trees. However, I have been struggling to make a link that is only  
one mile, unfortunately the path follows a heavily wooded riverbed.  
So you just never know. I think I've solved this connection by  
relaying off the house next door (tenth of a mile closer, but with an  
open field for 1/4 mile toward the AP). But I did notice that there  
is heavy noise at the relay house in what Trango calls channel 2.   
Noise level about -67. No idea what is doing that.


You might consider a modified mesh structure that uses 2.4 or 5GHz  
(or even 900 after testing) to those few LOS houses, then something  
like Meraki mesh to connect close neighbors.


Otherwise, I think your idea is great, if you could get clear  
spectrum.   :-)



On September 10, at 12:16 PM September 10, Allen Marsalis wrote:

Please imagine a muni wireless mesh network that utilizes 900MHz  
cards instead of 5.8 and 2.4 cards.  Instead of nodes being 1000  
feet apart atop light poles, they are now spread 1 or 2 miles  
apart.  Instead of it taking 15 or 20 nodes to cover one square  
mile, perhaps one node could cover 1 to 4 square miles.  Could this  
be a solution for wooded areas with low to moderate population  
densities?  In other words, do you know anyone who has ever built a  
mesh network using SR9s and SBCs with multiple radios to achieve  
redundancy and ubiquitous coverage for small towns in the  
Southeast?  And using no towers by the way, LOL?  As I see it, the  
SR9 has 4 non-overlapping channels at 5MHz each.  Thats all I need.  
(I think)




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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

Allen:

Metricom's long out of business, but technologically, they made it
work (albeit at ~28 Kbps, and later ~128 Kbps). One of the key things
they did to make it work at 902-928 MHz is to use FHSS and small
channel sizes rather than fixed, wide channels as all the current
902-928 MHz BWIA gear (except Alvarion's BreezeNet [?].

The earlier version did both mesh and access using 902-928 MHz. The
newer version used 2.3 and 2.4 GHz for the mesh (backhaul) and 902-928
MHz for access only.


Thanks,

Steve


On 9/10/07, Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Thanks for the reply Steve.  Can you share if they were able to make
 it work or not?  Any info would be greatly appreciated.

 Allen


-- 

Steve Stroh
425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

Thank you David for your thoughts on this.  I too am a bit 
skeptical.  :)  Which is why I decided to ask for comments from you 
guys.  There is the additional issue of mesh routing protocols but 
I think (and I mean think) I may have that covered if the physical 
stuff worked out ok.  It's just the whole concept might fall flat for 
a dozen reasons.  I'm trying to figure out how many nodes I would 
need to deploy in a real world test, but I also want to think this 
out before getting that far and spend a bunch of money.  The idea may 
be so bad that testing is unwarranted.


But hey, there must be at least 8 people left in the country without 
broadband, and I want to give it to them! ;)


Allen


At 01:05 PM 9/10/2007, David E. Smith wrote:

Allen Marsalis wrote:


I take it that nobody has ever built a 900MHz NLOS mesh network before.
Which is not a good sign to me.  That's a sign that my idea 
probably won't work.


I'd be very skeptical just because of what I lovingly call the 
Tropos Effect.


Obviously, all these nodes eventually have to come back to... 
somewhere that has a big bad Internet connection. Your office, a 
central tower, whatever. If you're near that tower, you don't have 
much of a problem, as your laptop is talking to a node that's 
talking directly to that point of origin. If you're a few blocks 
away, where your laptop talks to a node that's two or three hops 
away, there's cumulative bandwidth loss and added latency, and just 
more things that can go wrong generally.


Your proposal gets rid of the worst part of how Tropos does things. 
They use the same radio both for inter-node communication and for 
customers, same SSID, same everything; by using separate radios for 
backhaul and customer access, you're already coming out ahead.


There will still be added overhead and latency, the more nodes you 
have to go through, and the folks at the farthest reaches of the 
network won't have as good an experience as the folks close to your 
point of origin.


I'm a bit skeptical. The expense of 900MHz gear, and the sheer 
number of units you'd need to for a wide coverage area, makes this 
seem like a really difficult idea to pull off. Nevertheless, I wish 
you luck, if you do choose to deploy something like that.


David Smith
MVN.net




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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

Thanks George.  Sounds like wise advice to me considering all the 
things happening within the industry in recent years.  Google is 
petitioning the FCC for nationwide prime spectrum?  I'm short a few 
billion it seems..  Even if my idea is technically doable, then I 
must go find the right markets which is a challenge all in itself.  I 
sometimes see data centers and there aren't many dialup customers 
left and lots of empty modems.  How Netzero can still afford to run 
ads I do not know.


Allen


At 03:23 PM 9/10/2007, George Rogato wrote:
I'm glad your still around the industry Allen, every one in a while 
someone says, Where's Allen M? Makes us wonder.
Myself, I would only look at 900 as a temporary frequency to use. 
Maybe a couple years, more in the very rural areas and less urban wise.


Too many others are using 900 or starting to use it. Electric and 
water companies for meter reading, walmart and other bigbox for id 
and our portable phones still use 900 even when their 2.4 or 5.8.


So if building something out and realizing it has a short time span 
works. Then 900 is workable.



George





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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


At 04:00 PM 9/10/2007, John Valenti wrote:

Allen,

It sounds as if you might be proposing this for a suburban or even
tree filled urban environment. One problem you might run into is
clear spectrum in 900MHz.  I've use Trango gear out in rural areas,
where it works OK. I've only done a few scans in the city (East
Lansing and Lansing, specifically). Both of those scans were so
depressing I never tried making any links with 900 in town. All the
channels were what the Trango manual calls unsuitable.


Point noted.  My testing thus far has been at my house which is in an 
remote community a couple miles outside of town.  Results may and 
probably will vary and I get closer to town, but I'm not wanting to 
compete with cable or DSL.  I was hoping to find some still under 
served small towns that would appreciate my services..





I have a few of the SR9 cards and am just starting to work with them.
I read somewhere that Trango (for example) rejects interference
better than the SR9. No personal experience one way or another yet.


I saw were Ubiquiti has cavity filters but I have no idea what they 
cost or how well they work.  I had one Trango 900 POP years ago and 
it worked well.  But 6 sectors ain't happening. (I had only a few 
customers off one sector)  But I'm really thinking in terms of 
multiple radio systems (SBC's) for a number of reasons.





My new rule of thumb with Trango is that I can go 2 miles.



I recall a little bit better for me.  But the spectrum may have been 
really clear.  I didn't have a 900MHz option for my cheap spectrum 
analyzer.  I sold my company not long after hanging that gear.





You might consider a modified mesh structure that uses 2.4 or 5GHz
(or even 900 after testing) to those few LOS houses, then something
like Meraki mesh to connect close neighbors.


Nodding, I have thought in terms of large outter mesh with an inner 
micro mesh structure that isn't intended to go very deep (lots of 
hops)  But out in the boonies, I'm not sure 2.4/5.8 is going to get 
me very far  when houses might be a quarter or half mile apart. (or 
more)  If I did have a tower in the area, perhaps breaks in the 
mesh could be patched with a new homerun shot if you follow me.


Thanks for the feedback

Allen



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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


At 05:12 PM 9/10/2007, you wrote:

Allen:

Metricom's long out of business, but technologically, they made it
work (albeit at ~28 Kbps, and later ~128 Kbps). One of the key things
they did to make it work at 902-928 MHz is to use FHSS and small
channel sizes rather than fixed, wide channels as all the current
902-928 MHz BWIA gear (except Alvarion's BreezeNet [?].


I clearly see your point as an old FHSS guy.  hehehe

LOL, between you and me, I would never have waxed so philosophically 
over this idea had it not been for the muni-wifi movement with its 
limited non-overlapping channels. Multiple radio systems got me 
interested in meshing a while back.  I guess I'm not the only one, 
but my market is definitely not city wifi like Strix.





The earlier version did both mesh and access using 902-928 MHz. The
newer version used 2.3 and 2.4 GHz for the mesh (backhaul) and 902-928
MHz for access only.


Gotcha, many thanks for responding to me Steve.  I think there is 
something to be learned under every new stone, and even some old 
stones long forgotten my most...  I barely remember Metricom and 
packet radio.


Hmmm I just saw a HughesNet commercial.  The one with the pretty lady 
in a green dress.  I assume GEO satellite service still stinks to 
high heaven??  I nearly forgot about those guys...  I once knew Avi 
Freedman when he was into some satellite stuff and learned enough not 
to be too scared of the sat guys who have their own unique set of 
expensive problems.


Allen



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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

Allen:

While progress in satellite communications can be measured in 5 year
increments - to design, fund, and launch them... technological
progress DOES come, and has. Spot beams are now a standard feature on
all new satellites, and it's beginning to make a big difference. Watch
to see what happens with WildBlue over the next year as they bring
their built-for-purpose satellite online, as opposed to using one
big, continent-spanning transponder technology.

Thanks,

Steve

On 9/10/07, Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I clearly see your point as an old FHSS guy.  hehehe

 LOL, between you and me, I would never have waxed so philosophically
 over this idea had it not been for the muni-wifi movement with its
 limited non-overlapping channels. Multiple radio systems got me
 interested in meshing a while back.  I guess I'm not the only one,
 but my market is definitely not city wifi like Strix.

 Gotcha, many thanks for responding to me Steve.  I think there is
 something to be learned under every new stone, and even some old
 stones long forgotten my most...  I barely remember Metricom and
 packet radio.

 Hmmm I just saw a HughesNet commercial.  The one with the pretty lady
 in a green dress.  I assume GEO satellite service still stinks to
 high heaven??  I nearly forgot about those guys...  I once knew Avi
 Freedman when he was into some satellite stuff and learned enough not
 to be too scared of the sat guys who have their own unique set of
 expensive problems.

 Allen


-- 

Steve Stroh
425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com


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RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-10 Thread Patrick Leary

Allen, great to see you pop up on the list again. You've been missed.

Patrick Leary
AVP, Market Development
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Visit Alvarion at WiMAX World
Chicago, September 25-27
Booth #409

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Allen Marsalis
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 3:28 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

Thank you David for your thoughts on this.  I too am a bit 
skeptical.  :)  Which is why I decided to ask for comments from you 
guys.  There is the additional issue of mesh routing protocols but 
I think (and I mean think) I may have that covered if the physical 
stuff worked out ok.  It's just the whole concept might fall flat for 
a dozen reasons.  I'm trying to figure out how many nodes I would 
need to deploy in a real world test, but I also want to think this 
out before getting that far and spend a bunch of money.  The idea may 
be so bad that testing is unwarranted.

But hey, there must be at least 8 people left in the country without 
broadband, and I want to give it to them! ;)

Allen


At 01:05 PM 9/10/2007, David E. Smith wrote:
Allen Marsalis wrote:

I take it that nobody has ever built a 900MHz NLOS mesh network
before.
Which is not a good sign to me.  That's a sign that my idea 
probably won't work.

I'd be very skeptical just because of what I lovingly call the 
Tropos Effect.

Obviously, all these nodes eventually have to come back to... 
somewhere that has a big bad Internet connection. Your office, a 
central tower, whatever. If you're near that tower, you don't have 
much of a problem, as your laptop is talking to a node that's 
talking directly to that point of origin. If you're a few blocks 
away, where your laptop talks to a node that's two or three hops 
away, there's cumulative bandwidth loss and added latency, and just 
more things that can go wrong generally.

Your proposal gets rid of the worst part of how Tropos does things. 
They use the same radio both for inter-node communication and for 
customers, same SSID, same everything; by using separate radios for 
backhaul and customer access, you're already coming out ahead.

There will still be added overhead and latency, the more nodes you 
have to go through, and the folks at the farthest reaches of the 
network won't have as good an experience as the folks close to your 
point of origin.

I'm a bit skeptical. The expense of 900MHz gear, and the sheer 
number of units you'd need to for a wide coverage area, makes this 
seem like a really difficult idea to pull off. Nevertheless, I wish 
you luck, if you do choose to deploy something like that.

David Smith
MVN.net




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RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


At 06:37 PM 9/10/2007, Patrick Leary wrote:

Allen, great to see you pop up on the list again. You've been missed.



Thanks Patrick.  I trust all is going well with you.  I hear you are 
now vice president.  Great job!  (I mean that both ways. You do a 
great job and have a great job)  :)   Our kids are all growing 
up!   Your daughter must be what about 7 now.  Am I close?  Mine is 9 
and still wears her oversized Mikrotik and Trango 
T-shirts!  :ducking:   LOL, She's still waiting for her Breezecom t-shirt.. ;)


Allen






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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-10 Thread Dylan Oliver

Isn't WildBlue actually leasing a HughesNet/DirecWay satellite? Thus sprach
a HughesNet installer, anyway.

On 9/10/07, Steve Stroh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Allen:

 While progress in satellite communications can be measured in 5 year
 increments - to design, fund, and launch them... technological
 progress DOES come, and has. Spot beams are now a standard feature on
 all new satellites, and it's beginning to make a big difference. Watch
 to see what happens with WildBlue over the next year as they bring
 their built-for-purpose satellite online, as opposed to using one
 big, continent-spanning transponder technology.


Best,
-- 
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-10 Thread Dylan Oliver

Not so. Just look up the opening bid for your CMA..

On 9/10/07, Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Thanks George.  Sounds like wise advice to me considering all the
 things happening within the industry in recent years.  Google is
 petitioning the FCC for nationwide prime spectrum?  I'm short a few
 billion it seems..  Even if my idea is technically doable, then I
 must go find the right markets which is a challenge all in itself.  I
 sometimes see data centers and there aren't many dialup customers
 left and lots of empty modems.  How Netzero can still afford to run
 ads I do not know.

 Allen


 At 03:23 PM 9/10/2007, George Rogato wrote:
 I'm glad your still around the industry Allen, every one in a while
 someone says, Where's Allen M? Makes us wonder.
 Myself, I would only look at 900 as a temporary frequency to use.
 Maybe a couple years, more in the very rural areas and less urban wise.
 
 Too many others are using 900 or starting to use it. Electric and
 water companies for meter reading, walmart and other bigbox for id
 and our portable phones still use 900 even when their 2.4 or 5.8.
 
 So if building something out and realizing it has a short time span
 works. Then 900 is workable.
 
 
 George



 

 ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
 ISPCON **
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-- 
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC


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RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-10 Thread Patrick Leary

LOL. My girls are 6.5 and 4 now. They don't care much what the shirt
says so long as it has something sparkly on it. :)  And I have plenty of
old BreezeCOM shirts still. 


Patrick
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Allen Marsalis
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 5:26 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

At 06:37 PM 9/10/2007, Patrick Leary wrote:
Allen, great to see you pop up on the list again. You've been missed.


Thanks Patrick.  I trust all is going well with you.  I hear you are 
now vice president.  Great job!  (I mean that both ways. You do a 
great job and have a great job)  :)   Our kids are all growing 
up!   Your daughter must be what about 7 now.  Am I close?  Mine is 9 
and still wears her oversized Mikrotik and Trango 
T-shirts!  :ducking:   LOL, She's still waiting for her Breezecom
t-shirt.. ;)

Allen







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RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-10 Thread Gino Villarini

I'll bet they prefer the Motorola Canopy T-shirts!

;-) ... ducking!

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 9:33 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

LOL. My girls are 6.5 and 4 now. They don't care much what the shirt
says so long as it has something sparkly on it. :)  And I have plenty of
old BreezeCOM shirts still. 


Patrick
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Allen Marsalis
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 5:26 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

At 06:37 PM 9/10/2007, Patrick Leary wrote:
Allen, great to see you pop up on the list again. You've been missed.


Thanks Patrick.  I trust all is going well with you.  I hear you are 
now vice president.  Great job!  (I mean that both ways. You do a 
great job and have a great job)  :)   Our kids are all growing 
up!   Your daughter must be what about 7 now.  Am I close?  Mine is 9 
and still wears her oversized Mikrotik and Trango 
T-shirts!  :ducking:   LOL, She's still waiting for her Breezecom
t-shirt.. ;)

Allen







** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-10 Thread Mike Hammett


Does anyone have some to send down?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Gino Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 8:35 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


I'll bet they prefer the Motorola Canopy T-shirts!

;-) ... ducking!

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 9:33 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

LOL. My girls are 6.5 and 4 now. They don't care much what the shirt
says so long as it has something sparkly on it. :)  And I have plenty of
old BreezeCOM shirts still.


Patrick
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Allen Marsalis
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 5:26 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

At 06:37 PM 9/10/2007, Patrick Leary wrote:

Allen, great to see you pop up on the list again. You've been missed.



Thanks Patrick.  I trust all is going well with you.  I hear you are
now vice president.  Great job!  (I mean that both ways. You do a
great job and have a great job)  :)   Our kids are all growing
up!   Your daughter must be what about 7 now.  Am I close?  Mine is 9
and still wears her oversized Mikrotik and Trango
T-shirts!  :ducking:   LOL, She's still waiting for her Breezecom
t-shirt.. ;)

Allen







** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
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** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
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** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register

RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

2007-09-10 Thread Mike Bushard, Jr

Talk to your local sales rep...

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC
320-256-WISP (9477)
320-256-9478 Fax
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 8:40 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

Does anyone have some to send down?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Gino Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 8:35 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


I'll bet they prefer the Motorola Canopy T-shirts!

;-) ... ducking!

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 9:33 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

LOL. My girls are 6.5 and 4 now. They don't care much what the shirt
says so long as it has something sparkly on it. :)  And I have plenty of
old BreezeCOM shirts still.


Patrick
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Allen Marsalis
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 5:26 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

At 06:37 PM 9/10/2007, Patrick Leary wrote:
Allen, great to see you pop up on the list again. You've been missed.


Thanks Patrick.  I trust all is going well with you.  I hear you are
now vice president.  Great job!  (I mean that both ways. You do a
great job and have a great job)  :)   Our kids are all growing
up!   Your daughter must be what about 7 now.  Am I close?  Mine is 9
and still wears her oversized Mikrotik and Trango
T-shirts!  :ducking:   LOL, She's still waiting for her Breezecom
t-shirt.. ;)

Allen







** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



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** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

Dylan:

WildBlue is leasing satellite transponders for their current service,
but I don't think they have anything to do with Hughes.

Thanks,

Steve


On 9/10/07, Dylan Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Isn't WildBlue actually leasing a HughesNet/DirecWay satellite? Thus sprach
 a HughesNet installer, anyway.
 Best,
 --
 Dylan Oliver
 Primaverity, LLC


-- 

Steve Stroh
425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
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** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

I'm proud to say no Canopy shirts in this house Gino!   I can't 
afford them.  (major ducking)  :)


Allen


At 08:35 PM 9/10/2007, Gino Villarini wrote:

I'll bet they prefer the Motorola Canopy T-shirts!

;-) ... ducking!




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


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RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks