RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
For wireless we currently have an Aruba 2400, and a HP WESM xl module. About a year ago I did a comparison (mostly on paper) of a campus wide deployment of Aruba, Trapeze, Procurve, Xirrus, Cisco, and Siemens. It came down to Procurve for several reasons. 1. It is very simple to setup and maintain. 2. It has supported 802.1x a lot easier than our Aruba deployment 3. It is the least expensive to maintain year over year (Lifetime warranty). The only reason why he is pushing Cisco is they are shipping N now, and he is concerned there will be a politically backlash from the students with the technology fee increase. My opinion is the students won't care if it is a/b/g or n. They just want wireless. From: Lee H Badman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:36 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 Hi Lee- I would encourage an eyes-open, non-biased bake-off if you have no wireless now. Regardless of what APs you settle on, scrutinize the management component closely. You may end up with a whiz-bang WLAN, but if you become a slave to the management tool, you'll likely be looking for alternatives not too far down the road. The management component (and the hidden costs that you'd do well to ferret out before purchasing by grilling others who have gone before you), add a significant amount to your TCO. For us, we're seeing what early adopters have to say on 802.11n. Especially large schools with thousands of APs that also do 802.1x. You probably realize that 802.11n can impact your PoE and data wiring strategy, along with the number of APs, etc... Keep us posted as you proceed. Out of curiosity- did the push for Cisco by your supervisor come after a comparison with other vendors? Regards- Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:25 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability. We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment. Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched. I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n. Thank you, Lee Weers Assistant Director for Network Services Central College IT Services (641) 628-7675 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
weird DHCP behaviour with wireless
Hi all, We're seeing this behaviour in our wireless network but it really relates more to DHCP than to wireless itself. Is anyone aware of DCHP client issues with any of the 'popular' latop operating systems. What I'm seeing is a wireless client asking for, and receiving, an IP address along with the usual DNS info and lease time etc. The client will renew the lease at the half-life time for a few cycles and then suddenly renew it's lease after a minute or, sometimes, after a number of seconds.ieseemingly ignoring the lease time it was given. I haven't looked to deep yet on the hope that someone is already aware of a DHCP client issue of some sort. thanks in advance..Jamie James Savage York University Senior Communications Tech. 108 Steacie Building [EMAIL PROTECTED]4700 Keele Street ph: 416-736-2100 ext. 22605Toronto, Ontario fax: 416-736-5701M3J 1P3, CANADA ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
Had they received Wi-Fi certification? I think that could be a differentiating factor. I remeber that there was talk of 802.11g being certified *after* the final release, but not during draft. Some 802.11g draft hardware was specified as compliant after the final spec was approved, though. Ah, just found the old press release that seems to confirm: URL:http://www.wi-fi.org/news/pressrelease-022503-80211gcertification/en So in that regard, we may do better with 802.11n draft 2 hardware. But it doesn't address what happens when draft 3 hardware arrives, or a vendor drops support for a product/goes out of business between the release of 802.11n draft xx and 802.11n's finalization. No thanks. It's called Draft for a reason. -- Jorj -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Jorj Bauer | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Director of Networking | 3330 Walnut St. School of Engineering and Applied Science |Levine Building, Room 160 University of Pennsylvania | Philadelphia, PA 19104 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. pgpNkEST8AtK7.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
You are correct that Cisco is shipping N now, but the 1250 AP's are modular to accommodate any changes to the 802.11n draft that would require a radio modification. There are 6 external antennas on the box and they weigh about as much as a cinder block. They are not really good for ceiling mounting. I personally would wait until this technology is a bit more mature and they have sleeker AP's more along the lines of say the 1130 series. This should occur after the draft is ratified. Mike From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:42 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 For wireless we currently have an Aruba 2400, and a HP WESM xl module. About a year ago I did a comparison (mostly on paper) of a campus wide deployment of Aruba, Trapeze, Procurve, Xirrus, Cisco, and Siemens. It came down to Procurve for several reasons. 1. It is very simple to setup and maintain. 2. It has supported 802.1x a lot easier than our Aruba deployment 3. It is the least expensive to maintain year over year (Lifetime warranty). The only reason why he is pushing Cisco is they are shipping N now, and he is concerned there will be a politically backlash from the students with the technology fee increase. My opinion is the students won't care if it is a/b/g or n. They just want wireless. From: Lee H Badman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:36 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 Hi Lee- I would encourage an eyes-open, non-biased bake-off if you have no wireless now. Regardless of what APs you settle on, scrutinize the management component closely. You may end up with a whiz-bang WLAN, but if you become a slave to the management tool, you'll likely be looking for alternatives not too far down the road. The management component (and the hidden costs that you'd do well to ferret out before purchasing by grilling others who have gone before you), add a significant amount to your TCO. For us, we're seeing what early adopters have to say on 802.11n. Especially large schools with thousands of APs that also do 802.1x. You probably realize that 802.11n can impact your PoE and data wiring strategy, along with the number of APs, etc... Keep us posted as you proceed. Out of curiosity- did the push for Cisco by your supervisor come after a comparison with other vendors? Regards- Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:25 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability. We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment. Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched. I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n. Thank you, Lee Weers Assistant Director for Network Services Central College IT Services (641) 628-7675 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
Carnegie Mellon just went through an extensive N evalthey chose Aruba. http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/071112/0324644.html From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:25 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability. We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment. Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched. I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n. Thank you, Lee Weers Assistant Director for Network Services Central College IT Services (641) 628-7675 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
I'm pretty sure Powerdsine/Microsemi has certified its midspan products to work with a number of vendors' gigabit switches. Pete M. _ From: Frank Bulk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:25 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 Michael: I would argue that 802.11n APs don't require gigabit Ethernet ports, though it would help with the occasional burst of traffic. Schools who can't afford an edge switch and wireless upgrade in one year could easily get away with doing 802.11n draft gear this year, and edge switching the next. In regards to power, almost all the vendors have some kind of solution or workaround. Some use a second Ethernet port others power down a radio chain. Cisco is using CDP to negotiate more power out of select models of their switch - see this article for more details: http://www.networkcomputing.com/immersion/802.11n/showArticle.jhtml?articleI D=201804302 Good point about the certification for GigE mid-span PoE. I'm not sure if the IEEE 802.3af standard ever addressed mid-span for GigE, but it is addressed in 802.3at. Regards, Frank From: King, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:29 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 Great question.. Two points you need to know... 1252's require gigabit Ethernet ports. (Any 802.11n is going to need gigabit Ethernet ports. The actual throughput is over 100Mbs) You'll need extra power. Not many (if any) 802.11n AP's with dual radios can run on standard POE. Cisco is supposed to be releasing a firmware for their 3750's that will allow it to power the 1252's, but otherwise you'll be regulated to power injectors, or third party mid-span devices. (That are gig certified) Mike From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:25 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability. We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment. Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched. I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n. Thank you, Lee Weers Assistant Director for Network Services Central College IT Services (641) 628-7675 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
We are currently rolling out Cisco a/b/g wireless and asked the vendor about designing with 802.11n in mind. The overall response was that the technology is too immature and any predictions would be highly speculative. They also said that the consumer base would not be populated with N - capable devices within the next 5-8 years in sufficient numbers to realize an advantage. So what does the population think about the lifespan of the current 802.11a/b/g technology? On Tue, 2007-11-13 at 16:09 -0500, Jorj Bauer wrote: We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability. We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment. Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched. I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n. I think you are right on. I think as long as your a/b/g network is working well, the students aren't going to care about 11n. In my mind this is still a very immature technology. Personally, I'd hate to put any draft technology on my production network. We went through the same thing with 802.11g. Network researchers (here) that started using 802.11g draft hardware suffered innumerable interoperability headaches. -- Jorj -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Jorj Bauer | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Director of Networking | 3330 Walnut St. School of Engineering and Applied Science |Levine Building, Room 160 University of Pennsylvania | Philadelphia, PA 19104 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
It probably is no surprise but we have a 1252-based pilot in operation now, with ongoing conversations about when/how to expand. All of the concerns raised so far are valid, and under discussion. Currently we're using individual power injectors to Gig switches, but we all know how well individual injectors scale. :) It's a small pilot.. only 8 APs, but interesting nonetheless. Apple laptops manufactured since ~January and other vendors since ~June often have 802.11a/b/g/(pre)-n, and they are definitely connecting using 'n' in the pilot area. Of course they are connecting fine using a/b/g elsewhere. -Kevin Lee Weers wrote: We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability. We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment. Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched. I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n. Thank you, Lee Weers Assistant Director for Network Services Central College IT Services (641) 628-7675 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
I don't see a finalization of 802.11n anytime soon. If I remember right the original draft was supposed to be finalized by now, but then pushed it back to Spring 08 then Oct 08 and now Mar 09. I wouldn't be suprised to see it pushed back yet again. I was also concerned about not seeing a release on 3 patents to the IEEE standards body yet, but then just found this article. http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/10/02/WLAN-patent-threat-may-be-reso lved_1.html I think a/b/g will be here for quite some time. -Original Message- From: Kevin Pait [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:38 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 We are currently rolling out Cisco a/b/g wireless and asked the vendor about designing with 802.11n in mind. The overall response was that the technology is too immature and any predictions would be highly speculative. They also said that the consumer base would not be populated with N - capable devices within the next 5-8 years in sufficient numbers to realize an advantage. So what does the population think about the lifespan of the current 802.11a/b/g technology? On Tue, 2007-11-13 at 16:09 -0500, Jorj Bauer wrote: We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability. We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment. Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched. I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n. I think you are right on. I think as long as your a/b/g network is working well, the students aren't going to care about 11n. In my mind this is still a very immature technology. Personally, I'd hate to put any draft technology on my production network. We went through the same thing with 802.11g. Network researchers (here) that started using 802.11g draft hardware suffered innumerable interoperability headaches. -- Jorj -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=- Jorj Bauer | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Director of Networking | 3330 Walnut St. School of Engineering and Applied Science |Levine Building, Room 160 University of Pennsylvania | Philadelphia, PA 19104 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=- ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
Good point, though those legacy client devices seem to stick around longer than you think. In any case, shipping chipsets will be predominately 802.11n by 2009 and my guess is that the installed base of clients will reach 50% that year. I think Kevin's 5 to 8 years is much too conservative. Frank From: Toby Krohn (tkrohn) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:00 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 Actually, all but the lowest end of client devices are already shipping with n. With that said, assuming a conservative 4 year refresh cycle, in just 2 years the simple majority of the clients will be n and in 4 years the overwhelming majority will be n. Besides, with MIMO you will see better performance from your legacy abg clients so the move to n aps has mutiple drivers/benefits. Toby Krohn 4049060909 from my Treo -Original Message- From: Kevin Pait [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 04:49 PM Eastern Standard Time To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject:Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 We are currently rolling out Cisco a/b/g wireless and asked the vendor about designing with 802.11n in mind. The overall response was that the technology is too immature and any predictions would be highly speculative. They also said that the consumer base would not be populated with N - capable devices within the next 5-8 years in sufficient numbers to realize an advantage. So what does the population think about the lifespan of the current 802.11a/b/g technology? On Tue, 2007-11-13 at 16:09 -0500, Jorj Bauer wrote: We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability. We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment. Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched. I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n. I think you are right on. I think as long as your a/b/g network is working well, the students aren't going to care about 11n. In my mind this is still a very immature technology. Personally, I'd hate to put any draft technology on my production network. We went through the same thing with 802.11g. Network researchers (here) that started using 802.11g draft hardware suffered innumerable interoperability headaches. -- Jorj -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - Jorj Bauer | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Director of Networking | 3330 Walnut St. School of Engineering and Applied Science |Levine Building, Room 160 University of Pennsylvania | Philadelphia, PA 19104 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
Lee, It's all about be willing to pay the price of being an early adopter! Is it better to deploy an early 802.11n today and deal with the consequences (two cat5, two 802.3af ports, I wonder if you can etherchannel two 100 Mbps ports for each AP since you bring two cat5 anyway!) or wait for a later 802.11n with 802.3at for power (one cable) and by that time change your HP procurve 10/100 to Gig Switches anyway! Meanwhile deploy a cheap 802.11g infrastructure. In our case we still deploy 802.11g networks, while waiting for n and at to settle down (we will have n in a few advanced building as pilots) In a world where people downgrade OSes to the previous one, I wouldn't worry too much about being bleeding edge ;-) Philippe Hanset University of Tennessee -- On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, Lee Weers wrote: We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability. We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment. Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched. I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n. Thank you, Lee Weers Assistant Director for Network Services Central College IT Services (641) 628-7675 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
agreed - you will always have those legacy issues, good thing for backwards compatibility. But its not like we are just get accustomed to WLAN now. The expectations are higher. g rolled out much quicker than b and n will roll out much quicker than g. From: Frank Bulk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 5:54 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 Good point, though those legacy client devices seem to stick around longer than you think. In any case, shipping chipsets will be predominately 802.11n by 2009 and my guess is that the installed base of clients will reach 50% that year. I think Kevin's 5 to 8 years is much too conservative. Frank From: Toby Krohn (tkrohn) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:00 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 Actually, all but the lowest end of client devices are already shipping with n. With that said, assuming a conservative 4 year refresh cycle, in just 2 years the simple majority of the clients will be n and in 4 years the overwhelming majority will be n. Besides, with MIMO you will see better performance from your legacy abg clients so the move to n aps has mutiple drivers/benefits. Toby Krohn 4049060909 from my Treo -Original Message- From: Kevin Pait [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 04:49 PM Eastern Standard Time To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject:Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 We are currently rolling out Cisco a/b/g wireless and asked the vendor about designing with 802.11n in mind. The overall response was that the technology is too immature and any predictions would be highly speculative. They also said that the consumer base would not be populated with N - capable devices within the next 5-8 years in sufficient numbers to realize an advantage. So what does the population think about the lifespan of the current 802.11a/b/g technology? On Tue, 2007-11-13 at 16:09 -0500, Jorj Bauer wrote: We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability. We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment. Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched. I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n. I think you are right on. I think as long as your a/b/g network is working well, the students aren't going to care about 11n. In my mind this is still a very immature technology. Personally, I'd hate to put any draft technology on my production network. We went through the same thing with 802.11g. Network researchers (here) that started using 802.11g draft hardware suffered innumerable interoperability headaches. -- Jorj -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=- Jorj Bauer | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Director of Networking | 3330 Walnut St. School of Engineering and Applied Science |Levine Building, Room 160 University of Pennsylvania | Philadelphia, PA 19104 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=- ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
Lee, As was noted by others earlier today, we recently announced our new Wireless Andrew 2.0 project, which will bring 802.11n to the campus wireless network using equipment from Aruba and Xirrus. I'm happy to answer any questions you might have. -Dan Dan McCarriar Assistant Director, Network Services Computing Services Carnegie Mellon University [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Nov 13, 2007, at 3:25 PM, Lee Weers wrote: We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability. We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment. Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched. I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n. Thank you, Lee Weers Assistant Director for Network Services Central College IT Services (641) 628-7675 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/ . ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiSMs to 4.2
We are considering doing the upgrade over the holidays, but have no pressing need to upgrade. We may just hold off until the summer, although the holiday closure would have the least impact on our users. Tom Magrini Assistant Director, Network Services The University of Arizona [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Greene, Chip [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 5:25 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiSMs to 4.2 We are an 802.1x environment with around 1600 users and have just decided to hold off on our upgrade until the students are off campus over the holiday break. This should give me plenty of time to recover ..er upgrade. In reviewing the release notes and seeing the open caveats vs. closed caveats, we do not feel pressed to upgrade immediately. I would also be very interested in responses to changes in the 1x environment after the upgrade. Chip Greene Senior Network Specialist University of Richmond _ From: Lee H Badman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 3:51 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] WiSMs to 4.2 Now that a bit of the dust has settled on 4.2- wondering if any large 802.1x wireless environments have upgraded their WiSMs to 4.2, and if so, any changes for better or worse noted either from client perspective or on the system admin side? Regards- Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
Pete Lee, Same opinion here. I'm focusing on increased coverage. I plan on piloting 11n over the summer, but I have no plans for deployment at this time. Of the 18,000 or so users that utilize the UA's wireless network, I have not heard any complaints about bandwidth. I wouldn't expect it either given that most students are used to the performance they get on their home DSL or cable connections. Tom Magrini Assistant Director, Network Services University Information Technology Services The University of Arizona [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Peter Morrissey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:02 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 Lee, I think you are right on. I think as long as your a/b/g network is working well, the students aren't going to care about 11n. In my mind this is still a very immature technology. I think it would be very hard to demonstrate any noticeable benefit to a typical student using wireless. Sure, you are going to see them coming in with 11n on laptops next fall, but my understanding is that it will be backwards compatible with abg. I wouldn't consider it at this point unless I was starting from scratch, and even then I think it would be a tough call. BTW, Meru claims to have 11n and I think I heard Aruba has it or is about to release an 11n solution as well. We are concentrating more on increasing our coverage for now, and watching and waiting on 11n. We may do a small pilot this summer. Pete Morrissey _ From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:42 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 For wireless we currently have an Aruba 2400, and a HP WESM xl module. About a year ago I did a comparison (mostly on paper) of a campus wide deployment of Aruba, Trapeze, Procurve, Xirrus, Cisco, and Siemens. It came down to Procurve for several reasons. 1. It is very simple to setup and maintain. 2. It has supported 802.1x a lot easier than our Aruba deployment 3. It is the least expensive to maintain year over year (Lifetime warranty). The only reason why he is pushing Cisco is they are shipping N now, and he is concerned there will be a politically backlash from the students with the technology fee increase. My opinion is the students won't care if it is a/b/g or n. They just want wireless. _ From: Lee H Badman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:36 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 Hi Lee- I would encourage an eyes-open, non-biased bake-off if you have no wireless now. Regardless of what APs you settle on, scrutinize the management component closely. You may end up with a whiz-bang WLAN, but if you become a slave to the management tool, you'll likely be looking for alternatives not too far down the road. The management component (and the hidden costs that you'd do well to ferret out before purchasing by grilling others who have gone before you), add a significant amount to your TCO. For us, we're seeing what early adopters have to say on 802.11n. Especially large schools with thousands of APs that also do 802.1x. You probably realize that 802.11n can impact your PoE and data wiring strategy, along with the number of APs, etc. Keep us posted as you proceed. Out of curiosity- did the push for Cisco by your supervisor come after a comparison with other vendors? Regards- Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 _ From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:25 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability. We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment. Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched. I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n. Thank you, Lee Weers Assistant Director for Network Services Central College IT Services (641) 628-7675 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. **
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
For those organizations that are risk-averse and/or price conscious, the best choice may be deploying 802.11b/g everywhere now (in positions where an 802.11n AP could be dropped in later) and then upgrading to 802.11n in 2-3 years. This best applies to those who have no wireless today. If you're wondering why I skipped dual-radio/dual-mode APs that support 802.11a, it's because it's going to add $100+ per AP. Yes, 802.11a is growing, but it's predominately an 802.11b/g client world today upgrading to dual-band 802.11n. Frank -Original Message- From: Philippe Hanset [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:58 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 Lee, It's all about be willing to pay the price of being an early adopter! Is it better to deploy an early 802.11n today and deal with the consequences (two cat5, two 802.3af ports, I wonder if you can etherchannel two 100 Mbps ports for each AP since you bring two cat5 anyway!) or wait for a later 802.11n with 802.3at for power (one cable) and by that time change your HP procurve 10/100 to Gig Switches anyway! Meanwhile deploy a cheap 802.11g infrastructure. In our case we still deploy 802.11g networks, while waiting for n and at to settle down (we will have n in a few advanced building as pilots) In a world where people downgrade OSes to the previous one, I wouldn't worry too much about being bleeding edge ;-) Philippe Hanset University of Tennessee -- On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, Lee Weers wrote: We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability. We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment. Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched. I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n. Thank you, Lee Weers Assistant Director for Network Services Central College IT Services (641) 628-7675 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
Dan: All the best. I would be most interested in hearing about your PoE and your approach with existing APs. Kind regards, Frank -Original Message- From: Dan McCarriar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 5:14 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 Lee, As was noted by others earlier today, we recently announced our new Wireless Andrew 2.0 project, which will bring 802.11n to the campus wireless network using equipment from Aruba and Xirrus. I'm happy to answer any questions you might have. -Dan Dan McCarriar Assistant Director, Network Services Computing Services Carnegie Mellon University [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Nov 13, 2007, at 3:25 PM, Lee Weers wrote: We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability. We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment. Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched. I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n. Thank you, Lee Weers Assistant Director for Network Services Central College IT Services (641) 628-7675 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/ . ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
We supplied wi-fi to Interop this year where 60% of all clients connecting were 11a. We're seeing the same stats at the ITU in Geneva during the world radio congress last month. Del'Oro indicated the majority shipping of tri-mode or 11a stations occured in June of 06. Regards, Jon 303-808-2666 -Original Message- From: Frank Bulk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 06:05 PM Pacific Standard Time To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject:Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 For those organizations that are risk-averse and/or price conscious, the best choice may be deploying 802.11b/g everywhere now (in positions where an 802.11n AP could be dropped in later) and then upgrading to 802.11n in 2-3 years. This best applies to those who have no wireless today. If you're wondering why I skipped dual-radio/dual-mode APs that support 802.11a, it's because it's going to add $100+ per AP. Yes, 802.11a is growing, but it's predominately an 802.11b/g client world today upgrading to dual-band 802.11n. Frank -Original Message- From: Philippe Hanset [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:58 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 Lee, It's all about be willing to pay the price of being an early adopter! Is it better to deploy an early 802.11n today and deal with the consequences (two cat5, two 802.3af ports, I wonder if you can etherchannel two 100 Mbps ports for each AP since you bring two cat5 anyway!) or wait for a later 802.11n with 802.3at for power (one cable) and by that time change your HP procurve 10/100 to Gig Switches anyway! Meanwhile deploy a cheap 802.11g infrastructure. In our case we still deploy 802.11g networks, while waiting for n and at to settle down (we will have n in a few advanced building as pilots) In a world where people downgrade OSes to the previous one, I wouldn't worry too much about being bleeding edge ;-) Philippe Hanset University of Tennessee -- On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, Lee Weers wrote: We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability. We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment. Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched. I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n. Thank you, Lee Weers Assistant Director for Network Services Central College IT Services (641) 628-7675 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
Those are two events with rather technically savvy people who will set their radios to prefer 802.11a. =) So I would call 60% the high watermark. Most organizations will see less than this. Regards, Frank _ From: Jon Freeman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 8:16 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 We supplied wi-fi to Interop this year where 60% of all clients connecting were 11a. We're seeing the same stats at the ITU in Geneva during the world radio congress last month. Del'Oro indicated the majority shipping of tri-mode or 11a stations occured in June of 06. Regards, Jon 303-808-2666 -Original Message- From: Frank Bulk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 06:05 PM Pacific Standard Time To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject:Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 For those organizations that are risk-averse and/or price conscious, the best choice may be deploying 802.11b/g everywhere now (in positions where an 802.11n AP could be dropped in later) and then upgrading to 802.11n in 2-3 years. This best applies to those who have no wireless today. If you're wondering why I skipped dual-radio/dual-mode APs that support 802.11a, it's because it's going to add $100+ per AP. Yes, 802.11a is growing, but it's predominately an 802.11b/g client world today upgrading to dual-band 802.11n. Frank -Original Message- From: Philippe Hanset [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:58 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 Lee, It's all about be willing to pay the price of being an early adopter! Is it better to deploy an early 802.11n today and deal with the consequences (two cat5, two 802.3af ports, I wonder if you can etherchannel two 100 Mbps ports for each AP since you bring two cat5 anyway!) or wait for a later 802.11n with 802.3at for power (one cable) and by that time change your HP procurve 10/100 to Gig Switches anyway! Meanwhile deploy a cheap 802.11g infrastructure. In our case we still deploy 802.11g networks, while waiting for n and at to settle down (we will have n in a few advanced building as pilots) In a world where people downgrade OSes to the previous one, I wouldn't worry too much about being bleeding edge ;-) Philippe Hanset University of Tennessee -- On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, Lee Weers wrote: We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability. We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment. Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched. I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n. Thank you, Lee Weers Assistant Director for Network Services Central College IT Services (641) 628-7675 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
Hmmm... at SU, in certain areas, we see well over 50% for 802.11a at any given time. Overall, we see around 35-40% 802.11a. One thing that's interesting (not yet proven, but some good circumstantial evidence) is we see our newer Macintoshes clinging like grim death to weak 802.11a cells where g would be a far better bet. We have about a 30% Mac penetration on wireless- our lows are about 2,500 simultaneous clients and highs are around 5,500 at peak on any given day. I agree that 802.11a is not as prevalent as 802.11g, but it has gained tremendously for us over the last two years with newer laptops. We deploy a/g APs as they cost no more than just g. We design largely for 'a', especially where we know we'll be dense for users. Is interesting discussion. Lee -Original Message- From: Frank Bulk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 11/13/2007 9:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 Those are two events with rather technically savvy people who will set their radios to prefer 802.11a. =) So I would call 60% the high watermark. Most organizations will see less than this. Regards, Frank _ From: Jon Freeman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 8:16 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 We supplied wi-fi to Interop this year where 60% of all clients connecting were 11a. We're seeing the same stats at the ITU in Geneva during the world radio congress last month. Del'Oro indicated the majority shipping of tri-mode or 11a stations occured in June of 06. Regards, Jon 303-808-2666 -Original Message- From: Frank Bulk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 06:05 PM Pacific Standard Time To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject:Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 For those organizations that are risk-averse and/or price conscious, the best choice may be deploying 802.11b/g everywhere now (in positions where an 802.11n AP could be dropped in later) and then upgrading to 802.11n in 2-3 years. This best applies to those who have no wireless today. If you're wondering why I skipped dual-radio/dual-mode APs that support 802.11a, it's because it's going to add $100+ per AP. Yes, 802.11a is growing, but it's predominately an 802.11b/g client world today upgrading to dual-band 802.11n. Frank -Original Message- From: Philippe Hanset [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:58 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0 Lee, It's all about be willing to pay the price of being an early adopter! Is it better to deploy an early 802.11n today and deal with the consequences (two cat5, two 802.3af ports, I wonder if you can etherchannel two 100 Mbps ports for each AP since you bring two cat5 anyway!) or wait for a later 802.11n with 802.3at for power (one cable) and by that time change your HP procurve 10/100 to Gig Switches anyway! Meanwhile deploy a cheap 802.11g infrastructure. In our case we still deploy 802.11g networks, while waiting for n and at to settle down (we will have n in a few advanced building as pilots) In a world where people downgrade OSes to the previous one, I wouldn't worry too much about being bleeding edge ;-) Philippe Hanset University of Tennessee -- On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, Lee Weers wrote: We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability. We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment. Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched. I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n. Thank you, Lee Weers Assistant Director for Network Services Central College IT Services (641) 628-7675 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
