RE: eInstruction Insight 360 application- Anyone supporting it on their campus
Liberty University has been doing multicast over WLAN for years for IPTV with our Aruba infrastructure. I am not sure what you mean by VLAN groups, but we make extensive use of user roles in Aruba's built-in stateful firewall. If you are using VLANs for security, you are doing it wrong! Firewalls are meant for security. Bruce Osborne Wireless Engineer IT Infrastructure Media Solutions (434) 592-4229 LIBERTY UNIVERSITY Training Champions for Christ since 1971 From: Lee H Badman [mailto:lhbad...@syr.edu] Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2015 3:16 PM Subject: eInstruction Insight 360 application- Anyone supporting it on their campus Have a pilot of this coming fast http://www.einstruction.com/insight-360-tech-specs and this would take us into large-scale multicast over the WLAN. Second question- anyone doing multicast over the WLAN and also using VLAN groups at the same time? Thanks- Lee Lee Badman Wireless/Network Architect ITS, Syracuse University 315.443.3003 (Blog: http://wirednot.wordpress.com) ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] eInstruction Insight 360 application- Anyone supporting it on their campus
Nothing to do with security... instead of an SSID mapping to a single VLAN (and we don't do role-based VLANs) we map to an interface group of 4 VLANs. That's where that question came from. Thanks- Lee Lee Badman Wireless/Network Architect ITS, Syracuse University 315.443.3003 (Blog: http://wirednot.wordpress.com) From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Osborne, Bruce W (Network Services) Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 7:42 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] eInstruction Insight 360 application- Anyone supporting it on their campus Liberty University has been doing multicast over WLAN for years for IPTV with our Aruba infrastructure. I am not sure what you mean by VLAN groups, but we make extensive use of user roles in Aruba's built-in stateful firewall. If you are using VLANs for security, you are doing it wrong! Firewalls are meant for security. Bruce Osborne Wireless Engineer IT Infrastructure Media Solutions (434) 592-4229 LIBERTY UNIVERSITY Training Champions for Christ since 1971 From: Lee H Badman [mailto:lhbad...@syr.edu] Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2015 3:16 PM Subject: eInstruction Insight 360 application- Anyone supporting it on their campus Have a pilot of this coming fast http://www.einstruction.com/insight-360-tech-specs and this would take us into large-scale multicast over the WLAN. Second question- anyone doing multicast over the WLAN and also using VLAN groups at the same time? Thanks- Lee Lee Badman Wireless/Network Architect ITS, Syracuse University 315.443.3003 (Blog: http://wirednot.wordpress.com) ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment
As long as you don't put the AP right over a ceiling frame joint, we seem to do OK, again dependent on what else is up there. Best regards Sent from my phone, please excuse brevity and/or misspelling. From: Harry Rauchmailto:rauc...@eckerd.edu Sent: 29/04/2015 13:31 To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment We have done both above ceiling and below ceiling and found that it depends what's above the ceiling. Ductwork, pipes, etc. affect about 10% of our coverage. We have also tested the newer in-the wall devices that could be applicable to your design. We chose Ruckus since a number of their devices, including in-the-wall are immediately meshable if necessary without any work on the controller's part. Meshing has proven handy for us when we have had network feed issues at our dorms. As long as the antenna gets power it will automatically link to an active downlink antenna. Harry Rauch Sr. Network Analyst Eckerd College 4200 - 54th Ave S St. Petersburg, FL 33711 On 4/29/15 8:15 AM, Cosgrove, John wrote: Looking to hear about anyone doing above ceiling AP installations and see how the coverage compares to below the ceiling. I also don’t have much time or resources to “play” around with the design since it will be in a hospital environment. I am pushing to keep the AP’s below the ceiling but the renovation area is looking to have a “Luxury” feel. Facilities tells me to think “Luxury Hotel”. Hotel wireless is not the same goal as Hospital wireless. I suggested the paintable covers or the 2x2 drop ceiling enclosures. I think they want a “No See AP” look. Thank you for any comments on this issue. John Cosgrove Wireless Staff Specialist Penn State Hershey Medical Center Penn State College of Medicine jcosgr...@hmc.psu.edumailto:jcosgr...@hmc.psu.edu ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment
Looking to hear about anyone doing above ceiling AP installations and see how the coverage compares to below the ceiling. I also don't have much time or resources to play around with the design since it will be in a hospital environment. I am pushing to keep the AP's below the ceiling but the renovation area is looking to have a Luxury feel. Facilities tells me to think Luxury Hotel. Hotel wireless is not the same goal as Hospital wireless. I suggested the paintable covers or the 2x2 drop ceiling enclosures. I think they want a No See AP look. Thank you for any comments on this issue. John Cosgrove Wireless Staff Specialist Penn State Hershey Medical Center Penn State College of Medicine jcosgr...@hmc.psu.edu ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment
We have done both above ceiling and below ceiling and found that it depends what's above the ceiling. Ductwork, pipes, etc. affect about 10% of our coverage. We have also tested the newer in-the wall devices that could be applicable to your design. We chose Ruckus since a number of their devices, including in-the-wall are immediately meshable if necessary without any work on the controller's part. Meshing has proven handy for us when we have had network feed issues at our dorms. As long as the antenna gets power it will automatically link to an active downlink antenna. Harry Rauch Sr. Network Analyst Eckerd College 4200 - 54th Ave S St. Petersburg, FL 33711 On 4/29/15 8:15 AM, Cosgrove, John wrote: Looking to hear about anyone doing above ceiling AP installations and see how the coverage compares to below the ceiling. I also don’t have much time or resources to “play” around with the design since it will be in a hospital environment. I am pushing to keep the AP’s below the ceiling but the renovation area is looking to have a “Luxury” feel. Facilities tells me to think “Luxury Hotel”. Hotel wireless is not the same goal as Hospital wireless. I suggested the paintable covers or the 2x2 drop ceiling enclosures. I think they want a “No See AP” look. Thank you for any comments on this issue. John Cosgrove Wireless Staff Specialist Penn State Hershey Medical Center Penn State College of Medicine jcosgr...@hmc.psu.edu ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment
Thank you Chuck. This is how I see it as well. As the deployment gets more dense with AP’s walls become less of a factor. My other big resistance to this is serviceability. In a Hospital we have Infection Control issues. You can’t just get a step ladder and start poking around trying to find where and/or what happened to your “hidden” AP. Also over time other installers come thru the ceiling and do work so you never know what they may have done to your AP to get it out of their way. Wi-Fi already has too many variables in involved and this would add yet another layer. Thanks. JC From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Chuck Enfield Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 9:36 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment The question for me isn’t really whether to or not above the ceiling work or not, it’s how predictable is it. Coverage from AP’s, be they above or below the ceiling, is highly influenced by obstacle near the AP. For the most part, there are more potential obstacle above the ceiling than below. If you survey with the AP above the ceiling, and install the AP exactly where it was during the survey it should work fine. If, on the other hand, the AP gets installed 1 foot away from where it was during the survey, you could get weak or no signal somewhere you didn’t expect. AP’s installed below the ceiling are less likely to have this problem. In most cases, as long as they’re installed within a few feet of the surveyed location they’ll have the same coverage. Exception occur if the AP get installed next to a large column, or bookcase, but these obstacle tend to be much more obvious to the installed, than light fixtures, air handlers, and ductwork. That said, the more we design for density and the smaller our cells the less important this becomes. If we assume the extreme case of one or more APs located in every room (and also assume we’re not doing something as dumb as setting the AP on top of florescent light fixtures or an HVAC duct), small differences in position above the ceiling are unlikely to have any appreciable effect on network performance. FWIW, except for a tiny number of special cases we keep our APs (or at least the antennas) below the ceiling. It provides more consistent results and reduces the coordination required between the designer and installers. Chuck Enfield Manager, Wireless Systems Engineering Telecommunications Networking Services The Pennsylvania State University 110H, USB2, UP, PA 16802 ph: 814.863.8715 fx: 814.865.3988 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Ian McDonald Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 8:34 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment As long as you don't put the AP right over a ceiling frame joint, we seem to do OK, again dependent on what else is up there. Best regards Sent from my phone, please excuse brevity and/or misspelling. From: Harry Rauchmailto:rauc...@eckerd.edu Sent: 29/04/2015 13:31 To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment We have done both above ceiling and below ceiling and found that it depends what's above the ceiling. Ductwork, pipes, etc. affect about 10% of our coverage. We have also tested the newer in-the wall devices that could be applicable to your design. We chose Ruckus since a number of their devices, including in-the-wall are immediately meshable if necessary without any work on the controller's part. Meshing has proven handy for us when we have had network feed issues at our dorms. As long as the antenna gets power it will automatically link to an active downlink antenna. Harry Rauch Sr. Network Analyst Eckerd College 4200 - 54th Ave S St. Petersburg, FL 33711 On 4/29/15 8:15 AM, Cosgrove, John wrote: Looking to hear about anyone doing above ceiling AP installations and see how the coverage compares to below the ceiling. I also don’t have much time or resources to “play” around with the design since it will be in a hospital environment. I am pushing to keep the AP’s below the ceiling but the renovation area is looking to have a “Luxury” feel. Facilities tells me to think “Luxury Hotel”. Hotel wireless is not the same goal as Hospital wireless. I suggested the paintable covers or the 2x2 drop ceiling enclosures. I think they want a “No See AP” look. Thank you for any comments on this issue. John Cosgrove Wireless Staff Specialist Penn State Hershey Medical Center Penn State College of Medicine
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment
Agreed. I was thinking along these lines as well. If your walls are not “floor to floor” above the ceiling Auto RF will have a clear shot to all the other AP’s. JC From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of McClintic, Thomas Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:46 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment Above ceiling installation with auto RF mechanisms like TPC can cause lower power settings when the walls do not go above the ceiling. We have many additions throughout our campus where the walls do not extend above the grid. An AP placed above that will behave much differently than expected. From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Chuck Enfield Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 8:36 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment The question for me isn’t really whether to or not above the ceiling work or not, it’s how predictable is it. Coverage from AP’s, be they above or below the ceiling, is highly influenced by obstacle near the AP. For the most part, there are more potential obstacle above the ceiling than below. If you survey with the AP above the ceiling, and install the AP exactly where it was during the survey it should work fine. If, on the other hand, the AP gets installed 1 foot away from where it was during the survey, you could get weak or no signal somewhere you didn’t expect. AP’s installed below the ceiling are less likely to have this problem. In most cases, as long as they’re installed within a few feet of the surveyed location they’ll have the same coverage. Exception occur if the AP get installed next to a large column, or bookcase, but these obstacle tend to be much more obvious to the installed, than light fixtures, air handlers, and ductwork. That said, the more we design for density and the smaller our cells the less important this becomes. If we assume the extreme case of one or more APs located in every room (and also assume we’re not doing something as dumb as setting the AP on top of florescent light fixtures or an HVAC duct), small differences in position above the ceiling are unlikely to have any appreciable effect on network performance. FWIW, except for a tiny number of special cases we keep our APs (or at least the antennas) below the ceiling. It provides more consistent results and reduces the coordination required between the designer and installers. Chuck Enfield Manager, Wireless Systems Engineering Telecommunications Networking Services The Pennsylvania State University 110H, USB2, UP, PA 16802 ph: 814.863.8715 fx: 814.865.3988 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Ian McDonald Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 8:34 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment As long as you don't put the AP right over a ceiling frame joint, we seem to do OK, again dependent on what else is up there. Best regards Sent from my phone, please excuse brevity and/or misspelling. From: Harry Rauchmailto:rauc...@eckerd.edu Sent: 29/04/2015 13:31 To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment We have done both above ceiling and below ceiling and found that it depends what's above the ceiling. Ductwork, pipes, etc. affect about 10% of our coverage. We have also tested the newer in-the wall devices that could be applicable to your design. We chose Ruckus since a number of their devices, including in-the-wall are immediately meshable if necessary without any work on the controller's part. Meshing has proven handy for us when we have had network feed issues at our dorms. As long as the antenna gets power it will automatically link to an active downlink antenna. Harry Rauch Sr. Network Analyst Eckerd College 4200 - 54th Ave S St. Petersburg, FL 33711 On 4/29/15 8:15 AM, Cosgrove, John wrote: Looking to hear about anyone doing above ceiling AP installations and see how the coverage compares to below the ceiling. I also don’t have much time or resources to “play” around with the design since it will be in a hospital environment. I am pushing to keep the AP’s below the ceiling but the renovation area is looking to have a “Luxury” feel. Facilities tells me to think “Luxury Hotel”. Hotel wireless is not the same goal as Hospital wireless. I suggested the paintable covers or
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment
Can you tell us the brand/model for their patient/equipment location tracking system? Thanks. -jcw [UA Logo] John Watters The University of Alabama Office of Information Technology 205-348-3992 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeffrey D. Sessler Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 3:14 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment Near my home, Kaiser just completed a new state-of-the-art hospital and for the patients, it’s has a very luxury feel to it. They’ve deployed Cisco for wireless (for public and private), and the AP’s are all below the ceiling, along with what appear to be cellular repeaters. Having the AP’s exposed doesn’t appear to diminish the look at all - after all, there are lots of other distractions on the ceilings such as fire sensors, call lights, etc. What was really interesting is that they didn’t use the system for location tracking of patients/equipment. They had a separate system that used these tiny/flat/thin/flush “night light” looking devices that were plugged into power outlets everywhere, and they formed a huge mesh location network. Amazing. Jeff From: Cosgrove, John Reply-To: wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edumailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 9:09 AM To: wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edumailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment Thank you Chuck. This is how I see it as well. As the deployment gets more dense with AP’s walls become less of a factor. My other big resistance to this is serviceability. In a Hospital we have Infection Control issues. You can’t just get a step ladder and start poking around trying to find where and/or what happened to your “hidden” AP. Also over time other installers come thru the ceiling and do work so you never know what they may have done to your AP to get it out of their way. Wi-Fi already has too many variables in involved and this would add yet another layer. Thanks. JC From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Chuck Enfield Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 9:36 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment The question for me isn’t really whether to or not above the ceiling work or not, it’s how predictable is it. Coverage from AP’s, be they above or below the ceiling, is highly influenced by obstacle near the AP. For the most part, there are more potential obstacle above the ceiling than below. If you survey with the AP above the ceiling, and install the AP exactly where it was during the survey it should work fine. If, on the other hand, the AP gets installed 1 foot away from where it was during the survey, you could get weak or no signal somewhere you didn’t expect. AP’s installed below the ceiling are less likely to have this problem. In most cases, as long as they’re installed within a few feet of the surveyed location they’ll have the same coverage. Exception occur if the AP get installed next to a large column, or bookcase, but these obstacle tend to be much more obvious to the installed, than light fixtures, air handlers, and ductwork. That said, the more we design for density and the smaller our cells the less important this becomes. If we assume the extreme case of one or more APs located in every room (and also assume we’re not doing something as dumb as setting the AP on top of florescent light fixtures or an HVAC duct), small differences in position above the ceiling are unlikely to have any appreciable effect on network performance. FWIW, except for a tiny number of special cases we keep our APs (or at least the antennas) below the ceiling. It provides more consistent results and reduces the coordination required between the designer and installers. Chuck Enfield Manager, Wireless Systems Engineering Telecommunications Networking Services The Pennsylvania State University 110H, USB2, UP, PA 16802 ph: 814.863.8715 fx: 814.865.3988 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Ian McDonald Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 8:34 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment As long as you don't put the AP right over a
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment
Near my home, Kaiser just completed a new state-of-the-art hospital and for the patients, it’s has a very luxury feel to it. They’ve deployed Cisco for wireless (for public and private), and the AP’s are all below the ceiling, along with what appear to be cellular repeaters. Having the AP’s exposed doesn’t appear to diminish the look at all - after all, there are lots of other distractions on the ceilings such as fire sensors, call lights, etc. What was really interesting is that they didn’t use the system for location tracking of patients/equipment. They had a separate system that used these tiny/flat/thin/flush “night light” looking devices that were plugged into power outlets everywhere, and they formed a huge mesh location network. Amazing. Jeff From: Cosgrove, John Reply-To: wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edumailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 9:09 AM To: wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edumailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment Thank you Chuck. This is how I see it as well. As the deployment gets more dense with AP’s walls become less of a factor. My other big resistance to this is serviceability. In a Hospital we have Infection Control issues. You can’t just get a step ladder and start poking around trying to find where and/or what happened to your “hidden” AP. Also over time other installers come thru the ceiling and do work so you never know what they may have done to your AP to get it out of their way. Wi-Fi already has too many variables in involved and this would add yet another layer. Thanks. JC From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Chuck Enfield Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 9:36 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment The question for me isn’t really whether to or not above the ceiling work or not, it’s how predictable is it. Coverage from AP’s, be they above or below the ceiling, is highly influenced by obstacle near the AP. For the most part, there are more potential obstacle above the ceiling than below. If you survey with the AP above the ceiling, and install the AP exactly where it was during the survey it should work fine. If, on the other hand, the AP gets installed 1 foot away from where it was during the survey, you could get weak or no signal somewhere you didn’t expect. AP’s installed below the ceiling are less likely to have this problem. In most cases, as long as they’re installed within a few feet of the surveyed location they’ll have the same coverage. Exception occur if the AP get installed next to a large column, or bookcase, but these obstacle tend to be much more obvious to the installed, than light fixtures, air handlers, and ductwork. That said, the more we design for density and the smaller our cells the less important this becomes. If we assume the extreme case of one or more APs located in every room (and also assume we’re not doing something as dumb as setting the AP on top of florescent light fixtures or an HVAC duct), small differences in position above the ceiling are unlikely to have any appreciable effect on network performance. FWIW, except for a tiny number of special cases we keep our APs (or at least the antennas) below the ceiling. It provides more consistent results and reduces the coordination required between the designer and installers. Chuck Enfield Manager, Wireless Systems Engineering Telecommunications Networking Services The Pennsylvania State University 110H, USB2, UP, PA 16802 ph: 814.863.8715 fx: 814.865.3988 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Ian McDonald Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 8:34 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment As long as you don't put the AP right over a ceiling frame joint, we seem to do OK, again dependent on what else is up there. Best regards Sent from my phone, please excuse brevity and/or misspelling. From: Harry Rauchmailto:rauc...@eckerd.edu Sent: 29/04/2015 13:31 To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment We have done both above ceiling and below ceiling and found that it depends what's above the ceiling. Ductwork, pipes, etc. affect about 10% of our coverage. We have also tested the newer in-the wall devices that could be applicable to your design. We chose Ruckus since a number of their
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment
Awarepoint – zigbee-based, mesh, RTLS. If you google at bit, Kaiser has shared a lot of the information about it. Jeff From: Watters, John Reply-To: wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edumailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 1:16 PM To: wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edumailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment Can you tell us the brand/model for their patient/equipment location tracking system? Thanks. -jcw [UA Logo] John Watters The University of Alabama Office of Information Technology 205-348-3992 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeffrey D. Sessler Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 3:14 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment Near my home, Kaiser just completed a new state-of-the-art hospital and for the patients, it’s has a very luxury feel to it. They’ve deployed Cisco for wireless (for public and private), and the AP’s are all below the ceiling, along with what appear to be cellular repeaters. Having the AP’s exposed doesn’t appear to diminish the look at all - after all, there are lots of other distractions on the ceilings such as fire sensors, call lights, etc. What was really interesting is that they didn’t use the system for location tracking of patients/equipment. They had a separate system that used these tiny/flat/thin/flush “night light” looking devices that were plugged into power outlets everywhere, and they formed a huge mesh location network. Amazing. Jeff From: Cosgrove, John Reply-To: wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edumailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 9:09 AM To: wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edumailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment Thank you Chuck. This is how I see it as well. As the deployment gets more dense with AP’s walls become less of a factor. My other big resistance to this is serviceability. In a Hospital we have Infection Control issues. You can’t just get a step ladder and start poking around trying to find where and/or what happened to your “hidden” AP. Also over time other installers come thru the ceiling and do work so you never know what they may have done to your AP to get it out of their way. Wi-Fi already has too many variables in involved and this would add yet another layer. Thanks. JC From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Chuck Enfield Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 9:36 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment The question for me isn’t really whether to or not above the ceiling work or not, it’s how predictable is it. Coverage from AP’s, be they above or below the ceiling, is highly influenced by obstacle near the AP. For the most part, there are more potential obstacle above the ceiling than below. If you survey with the AP above the ceiling, and install the AP exactly where it was during the survey it should work fine. If, on the other hand, the AP gets installed 1 foot away from where it was during the survey, you could get weak or no signal somewhere you didn’t expect. AP’s installed below the ceiling are less likely to have this problem. In most cases, as long as they’re installed within a few feet of the surveyed location they’ll have the same coverage. Exception occur if the AP get installed next to a large column, or bookcase, but these obstacle tend to be much more obvious to the installed, than light fixtures, air handlers, and ductwork. That said, the more we design for density and the smaller our cells the less important this becomes. If we assume the extreme case of one or more APs located in every room (and also assume we’re not doing something as dumb as setting the AP on top of florescent light fixtures or an HVAC duct), small differences in position above the ceiling are unlikely to have any appreciable effect on network performance. FWIW, except for a tiny number of special cases we keep our APs (or at least the antennas) below the ceiling. It provides more consistent results and reduces the coordination required between the designer and installers. Chuck Enfield Manager, Wireless Systems Engineering Telecommunications Networking Services
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment
The question for me isn’t really whether to or not above the ceiling work or not, it’s how predictable is it. Coverage from AP’s, be they above or below the ceiling, is highly influenced by obstacle near the AP. For the most part, there are more potential obstacle above the ceiling than below. If you survey with the AP above the ceiling, and install the AP exactly where it was during the survey it should work fine. If, on the other hand, the AP gets installed 1 foot away from where it was during the survey, you could get weak or no signal somewhere you didn’t expect. AP’s installed below the ceiling are less likely to have this problem. In most cases, as long as they’re installed within a few feet of the surveyed location they’ll have the same coverage. Exception occur if the AP get installed next to a large column, or bookcase, but these obstacle tend to be much more obvious to the installed, than light fixtures, air handlers, and ductwork. That said, the more we design for density and the smaller our cells the less important this becomes. If we assume the extreme case of one or more APs located in every room (and also assume we’re not doing something as dumb as setting the AP on top of florescent light fixtures or an HVAC duct), small differences in position above the ceiling are unlikely to have any appreciable effect on network performance. FWIW, except for a tiny number of special cases we keep our APs (or at least the antennas) below the ceiling. It provides more consistent results and reduces the coordination required between the designer and installers. Chuck Enfield Manager, Wireless Systems Engineering Telecommunications Networking Services The Pennsylvania State University 110H, USB2, UP, PA 16802 ph: 814.863.8715 fx: 814.865.3988 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Ian McDonald Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 8:34 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment As long as you don't put the AP right over a ceiling frame joint, we seem to do OK, again dependent on what else is up there. Best regards Sent from my phone, please excuse brevity and/or misspelling. _ From: Harry Rauch mailto:rauc...@eckerd.edu Sent: 29/04/2015 13:31 To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment We have done both above ceiling and below ceiling and found that it depends what's above the ceiling. Ductwork, pipes, etc. affect about 10% of our coverage. We have also tested the newer in-the wall devices that could be applicable to your design. We chose Ruckus since a number of their devices, including in-the-wall are immediately meshable if necessary without any work on the controller's part. Meshing has proven handy for us when we have had network feed issues at our dorms. As long as the antenna gets power it will automatically link to an active downlink antenna. Harry Rauch Sr. Network Analyst Eckerd College 4200 - 54th Ave S St. Petersburg, FL 33711 On 4/29/15 8:15 AM, Cosgrove, John wrote: Looking to hear about anyone doing above ceiling AP installations and see how the coverage compares to below the ceiling. I also don’t have much time or resources to “play” around with the design since it will be in a hospital environment. I am pushing to keep the AP’s below the ceiling but the renovation area is looking to have a “Luxury” feel. Facilities tells me to think “Luxury Hotel”. Hotel wireless is not the same goal as Hospital wireless. I suggested the paintable covers or the 2x2 drop ceiling enclosures. I think they want a “No See AP” look. Thank you for any comments on this issue. John Cosgrove Wireless Staff Specialist Penn State Hershey Medical Center Penn State College of Medicine jcosgr...@hmc.psu.edu ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment
Above ceiling installation with auto RF mechanisms like TPC can cause lower power settings when the walls do not go above the ceiling. We have many additions throughout our campus where the walls do not extend above the grid. An AP placed above that will behave much differently than expected. From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Chuck Enfield Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 8:36 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment The question for me isn’t really whether to or not above the ceiling work or not, it’s how predictable is it. Coverage from AP’s, be they above or below the ceiling, is highly influenced by obstacle near the AP. For the most part, there are more potential obstacle above the ceiling than below. If you survey with the AP above the ceiling, and install the AP exactly where it was during the survey it should work fine. If, on the other hand, the AP gets installed 1 foot away from where it was during the survey, you could get weak or no signal somewhere you didn’t expect. AP’s installed below the ceiling are less likely to have this problem. In most cases, as long as they’re installed within a few feet of the surveyed location they’ll have the same coverage. Exception occur if the AP get installed next to a large column, or bookcase, but these obstacle tend to be much more obvious to the installed, than light fixtures, air handlers, and ductwork. That said, the more we design for density and the smaller our cells the less important this becomes. If we assume the extreme case of one or more APs located in every room (and also assume we’re not doing something as dumb as setting the AP on top of florescent light fixtures or an HVAC duct), small differences in position above the ceiling are unlikely to have any appreciable effect on network performance. FWIW, except for a tiny number of special cases we keep our APs (or at least the antennas) below the ceiling. It provides more consistent results and reduces the coordination required between the designer and installers. Chuck Enfield Manager, Wireless Systems Engineering Telecommunications Networking Services The Pennsylvania State University 110H, USB2, UP, PA 16802 ph: 814.863.8715 fx: 814.865.3988 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Ian McDonald Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 8:34 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment As long as you don't put the AP right over a ceiling frame joint, we seem to do OK, again dependent on what else is up there. Best regards Sent from my phone, please excuse brevity and/or misspelling. From: Harry Rauchmailto:rauc...@eckerd.edu Sent: 29/04/2015 13:31 To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment We have done both above ceiling and below ceiling and found that it depends what's above the ceiling. Ductwork, pipes, etc. affect about 10% of our coverage. We have also tested the newer in-the wall devices that could be applicable to your design. We chose Ruckus since a number of their devices, including in-the-wall are immediately meshable if necessary without any work on the controller's part. Meshing has proven handy for us when we have had network feed issues at our dorms. As long as the antenna gets power it will automatically link to an active downlink antenna. Harry Rauch Sr. Network Analyst Eckerd College 4200 - 54th Ave S St. Petersburg, FL 33711 On 4/29/15 8:15 AM, Cosgrove, John wrote: Looking to hear about anyone doing above ceiling AP installations and see how the coverage compares to below the ceiling. I also don’t have much time or resources to “play” around with the design since it will be in a hospital environment. I am pushing to keep the AP’s below the ceiling but the renovation area is looking to have a “Luxury” feel. Facilities tells me to think “Luxury Hotel”. Hotel wireless is not the same goal as Hospital wireless. I suggested the paintable covers or the 2x2 drop ceiling enclosures. I think they want a “No See AP” look. Thank you for any comments on this issue. John Cosgrove Wireless Staff Specialist Penn State Hershey Medical Center Penn State College of Medicine jcosgr...@hmc.psu.edumailto:jcosgr...@hmc.psu.edu ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment
We did a survey about 5 years ago using AirMagnet and found that we lost 10-15% by going above the ceiling. The only difference between the two tests was the ½ to 3/4” of the thickness of the ceiling tile. I was much happier with the Aps mounted on the wall were we could see them and view their status. The lights would tell us how they were connecting and if they were not connecting what was wrong. For example, if the Aps were connected at 1 Gb they would have 1 green light and 3 blue. If they connected at 100 Mb they would have 2 green and 2 blue. So just walking by we might notice that an AP was connecting at 100 Mb when all of our switches were Gb telling us there was a problem that we might not otherwise notice. If an AP was not coming up correctly the pattern of the flashing lights would tell us what was wrong etc. Got an IP address but cannot find controller, or cannot get an IP. In addition, it is often just dusty and hot up above the ceilings and it can be hard to locate the Aps when you need to. John From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeffrey D. Sessler Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 5:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment Awarepoint – zigbee-based, mesh, RTLS. If you google at bit, Kaiser has shared a lot of the information about it. Jeff From: Watters, John Reply-To: wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edumailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 1:16 PM To: wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edumailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment Can you tell us the brand/model for their patient/equipment location tracking system? Thanks. -jcw [UA Logo] John Watters The University of Alabama Office of Information Technology 205-348-3992 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeffrey D. Sessler Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 3:14 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment Near my home, Kaiser just completed a new state-of-the-art hospital and for the patients, it’s has a very luxury feel to it. They’ve deployed Cisco for wireless (for public and private), and the AP’s are all below the ceiling, along with what appear to be cellular repeaters. Having the AP’s exposed doesn’t appear to diminish the look at all - after all, there are lots of other distractions on the ceilings such as fire sensors, call lights, etc. What was really interesting is that they didn’t use the system for location tracking of patients/equipment. They had a separate system that used these tiny/flat/thin/flush “night light” looking devices that were plugged into power outlets everywhere, and they formed a huge mesh location network. Amazing. Jeff From: Cosgrove, John Reply-To: wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edumailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 9:09 AM To: wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edumailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment Thank you Chuck. This is how I see it as well. As the deployment gets more dense with AP’s walls become less of a factor. My other big resistance to this is serviceability. In a Hospital we have Infection Control issues. You can’t just get a step ladder and start poking around trying to find where and/or what happened to your “hidden” AP. Also over time other installers come thru the ceiling and do work so you never know what they may have done to your AP to get it out of their way. Wi-Fi already has too many variables in involved and this would add yet another layer. Thanks. JC From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Chuck Enfield Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 9:36 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Above Ceiling AP installations vs. Prediction - Hospital Environment The question for me isn’t really whether to or not above the ceiling work or not, it’s how predictable is it. Coverage from AP’s, be they above or below the ceiling, is highly influenced by obstacle near the AP. For the most part, there are more potential obstacle above the ceiling than below. If you survey with the AP above the ceiling,
