Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Options

[Fishel Erps]

We have used Adtran/BlueSocket for many years.  They have both an
on-premises VM-based controller, and a cloud offering.

Our deployment consists of 500+ APs and a VM-based controller.  Like any
vendor’s product line, it has its own idiosyncrasies.  Overall, we’ve been
happy with the product, and their tech support and commitment to the
product has been excellent.


__
__

Fishel Erps,
Sr. Network & Infrastructure Engineer
School of Visual Arts
136 W 21st St., 8th Floor

New York, NY, 10011

E:  fe...@sva.edu
___

Please excuse any typographical
errors as this e-mail has been sent
from my mobile device
___


On May 22, 2018, at 08:22, Lee H Badman  wrote:

You don’t with any lightweight, controller-managed AP. That was my point.
Are you talking Aruba cloud-managed?



*From:* The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv <
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> *On Behalf Of *Osborne, Bruce W
(Network Operations)
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 22, 2018 7:31 AM
*To:* WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
*Subject:* Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Options



With Aruba APs you do not trunk VLANs to the APs.



Just sayin’ 😉





*Bruce Osborne*

*Senior Network Engineer*

*Network Operations - Wireless*

 *(434) 592-4229*

*LIBERTY UNIVERSITY*

*Training Champions for Christ since 1971*



*From:* Lee H Badman [mailto:lhbad...@syr.edu ]
*Sent:* Monday, May 21, 2018 9:43 AM
*Subject:* Re: Wireless Options



I struggle with this question, too (cloud versus not) as a long-time user
of both. The need to trunk VLANs to cloud-based APs in a big environment is
more of an issue to me than code paradigms. Absolutely nothing could be
worse than a certain vendor’s appliance-based controller code quality track
record over the last 12 years. A culture of “accepted suck” seems to
pervade over that business unit and their most loyal customers, while I
scratch my head over why there hasn’t been a class-action lawsuit over the
entire mess. Now add automation to the mix and hang on for THAT thrill ride.



I’d love to have no more controllers, but the VLAN thing is tough to
swallow.



-Lee Badman



*From:* The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv <
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> *On Behalf Of *Osborne, Bruce W
(Network Operations)
*Sent:* Monday, May 21, 2018 8:33 AM
*To:* WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
*Subject:* Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Options



With a cloud solution, if they mess up feature addition you are stuck with
that latest version, correct? With controller-based ot Aruba Instant type
scenarios you are in charge of when to upgrade, waiting for stable builds.





*Bruce Osborne*

*Senior Network Engineer*

*Network Operations - Wireless*

 *(434) 592-4229*

*LIBERTY UNIVERSITY*

*Training Champions for Christ since 1971*



*From:* Enfield III, Charles Albert [mailto:cae...@psu.edu ]

*Sent:* Friday, May 18, 2018 2:54 PM
*Subject:* Re: Wireless Options



The other thing that’s going to change is the functionality.  Jeff was on
the right track when he talked about vendors with a global presence being
better able to identify bugs, security flaws etc. and promptly diagnose and
patch them.  They’re also better positioned to apply machine learning and
AI to the problems of network security and Wi-Fi optimization.  *If they’re
doing things right*, the cloud product won’t be a hamstrung version of the
controller product.  It will be a better version of the controller product.



*From:* The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv <
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> *On Behalf Of *Jeffrey D. Sessler
*Sent:* Friday, May 18, 2018 1:30 PM
*To:* WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
*Subject:* Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Options



One of the difficulties in comparing TCO is around staffing. Both
estimating how much time staff really spend on the current solution, but
also taking into account base salary with benefits. At many colleges,
benefits can add another 30%+ to the cost of a person. As such, the
elimination (or reallocation) of one FTE has a huge impact on on-premise vs
cloud comparisons. That single FTE could be $100K (salary + benefits) per
year, saving (or reallocating) $700K over those 7 years.



In a lot of our cloud shift, those FTE’s have been re-allocated into more
important roles such as security.



Jeff



*From: *"wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu" <
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> on behalf of Thomas Carter <
tcar...@austincollege.edu>
*Reply-To: *"wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu" <
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
*Date: *Friday, May 18, 2018 at 8:43 AM
*To: *"wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu" <
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
*Subject: *Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Options



For cloud to really take over, the costs need to drop. We just went through
a similar thing and are of a similar size (~300 APs), and the cloud
on-going OpEx costs d

RE: Wireless Options

[Norton, Thomas (Network Operations)]

I believe Bruce was referring to controller based. In regards to Cloud-based, 
Aruba central, IAP, etc, it depends on your environment and design methodology. 
It would still most likely require you to deploy trunks to every ap if 
segmenting with vlans.   I personally, see the industry going to a more hybrid 
approach on the cloud side of things.

T.J. Norton
Wireless Network Architect
Network Operations

Office: (434) 592-6552

[http://www.liberty.edu/media/1616/40themail/wordmark-for-email.jpg]

Liberty University  |  Training Champions for Christ since 1971

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Lee H Badman
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 8:22 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Options

You don’t with any lightweight, controller-managed AP. That was my point. Are 
you talking Aruba cloud-managed?

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
On Behalf Of Osborne, Bruce W (Network Operations)
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 7:31 AM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Options

With Aruba APs you do not trunk VLANs to the APs.

Just sayin’ 😉


Bruce Osborne
Senior Network Engineer
Network Operations - Wireless
 (434) 592-4229
LIBERTY UNIVERSITY
Training Champions for Christ since 1971

From: Lee H Badman [mailto:lhbad...@syr.edu]
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: Wireless Options

I struggle with this question, too (cloud versus not) as a long-time user of 
both. The need to trunk VLANs to cloud-based APs in a big environment is more 
of an issue to me than code paradigms. Absolutely nothing could be worse than a 
certain vendor’s appliance-based controller code quality track record over the 
last 12 years. A culture of “accepted suck” seems to pervade over that business 
unit and their most loyal customers, while I scratch my head over why there 
hasn’t been a class-action lawsuit over the entire mess. Now add automation to 
the mix and hang on for THAT thrill ride.

I’d love to have no more controllers, but the VLAN thing is tough to swallow.

-Lee Badman

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
On Behalf Of Osborne, Bruce W (Network Operations)
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 8:33 AM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Options

With a cloud solution, if they mess up feature addition you are stuck with that 
latest version, correct? With controller-based ot Aruba Instant type scenarios 
you are in charge of when to upgrade, waiting for stable builds.


Bruce Osborne
Senior Network Engineer
Network Operations - Wireless
 (434) 592-4229
LIBERTY UNIVERSITY
Training Champions for Christ since 1971

From: Enfield III, Charles Albert [mailto:cae...@psu.edu]
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: Wireless Options

The other thing that’s going to change is the functionality.  Jeff was on the 
right track when he talked about vendors with a global presence being better 
able to identify bugs, security flaws etc. and promptly diagnose and patch 
them.  They’re also better positioned to apply machine learning and AI to the 
problems of network security and Wi-Fi optimization.  If they’re doing things 
right, the cloud product won’t be a hamstrung version of the controller 
product.  It will be a better version of the controller product.

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
On Behalf Of Jeffrey D. Sessler
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 1:30 PM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Options

One of the difficulties in comparing TCO is around staffing. Both estimating 
how much time staff really spend on the current solution, but also taking into 
account base salary with benefits. At many colleges, benefits can add another 
30%+ to the cost of a person. As such, the elimination (or reallocation) of one 
FTE has a huge impact on on-premise vs cloud comparisons. That single FTE could 
be $100K (salary + benefits) per year, saving (or reallocating) $700K over 
those 7 years.

In a lot of our cloud shift, those FTE’s have been re-allocated into more 
important roles such as security.

Jeff

From: 
"wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu" 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
on behalf of Thomas Carter 
mailto:tcar...@austincollege.edu>>
Reply-To: 
"wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu" 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>>
Date: Friday, May 18, 2018 at 8:43 AM
To: 
"wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu" 
mailto:W

RE: Wireless Options

[Lee H Badman]

You don’t with any lightweight, controller-managed AP. That was my point. Are 
you talking Aruba cloud-managed?

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
 On Behalf Of Osborne, Bruce W (Network 
Operations)
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 7:31 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Options

With Aruba APs you do not trunk VLANs to the APs.

Just sayin’ 😉


Bruce Osborne
Senior Network Engineer
Network Operations - Wireless
 (434) 592-4229
LIBERTY UNIVERSITY
Training Champions for Christ since 1971

From: Lee H Badman [mailto:lhbad...@syr.edu]
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: Wireless Options

I struggle with this question, too (cloud versus not) as a long-time user of 
both. The need to trunk VLANs to cloud-based APs in a big environment is more 
of an issue to me than code paradigms. Absolutely nothing could be worse than a 
certain vendor’s appliance-based controller code quality track record over the 
last 12 years. A culture of “accepted suck” seems to pervade over that business 
unit and their most loyal customers, while I scratch my head over why there 
hasn’t been a class-action lawsuit over the entire mess. Now add automation to 
the mix and hang on for THAT thrill ride.

I’d love to have no more controllers, but the VLAN thing is tough to swallow.

-Lee Badman

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
On Behalf Of Osborne, Bruce W (Network Operations)
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 8:33 AM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Options

With a cloud solution, if they mess up feature addition you are stuck with that 
latest version, correct? With controller-based ot Aruba Instant type scenarios 
you are in charge of when to upgrade, waiting for stable builds.


Bruce Osborne
Senior Network Engineer
Network Operations - Wireless
 (434) 592-4229
LIBERTY UNIVERSITY
Training Champions for Christ since 1971

From: Enfield III, Charles Albert [mailto:cae...@psu.edu]
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: Wireless Options

The other thing that’s going to change is the functionality.  Jeff was on the 
right track when he talked about vendors with a global presence being better 
able to identify bugs, security flaws etc. and promptly diagnose and patch 
them.  They’re also better positioned to apply machine learning and AI to the 
problems of network security and Wi-Fi optimization.  If they’re doing things 
right, the cloud product won’t be a hamstrung version of the controller 
product.  It will be a better version of the controller product.

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
On Behalf Of Jeffrey D. Sessler
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 1:30 PM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Options

One of the difficulties in comparing TCO is around staffing. Both estimating 
how much time staff really spend on the current solution, but also taking into 
account base salary with benefits. At many colleges, benefits can add another 
30%+ to the cost of a person. As such, the elimination (or reallocation) of one 
FTE has a huge impact on on-premise vs cloud comparisons. That single FTE could 
be $100K (salary + benefits) per year, saving (or reallocating) $700K over 
those 7 years.

In a lot of our cloud shift, those FTE’s have been re-allocated into more 
important roles such as security.

Jeff

From: 
"wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu" 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
on behalf of Thomas Carter 
mailto:tcar...@austincollege.edu>>
Reply-To: 
"wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu" 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>>
Date: Friday, May 18, 2018 at 8:43 AM
To: 
"wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu" 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>>
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Options

For cloud to really take over, the costs need to drop. We just went through a 
similar thing and are of a similar size (~300 APs), and the cloud on-going OpEx 
costs dropped them out of the race. The simplicity of costs budgeting is nice, 
but 7 year TCO is no contest.

Where they currently seem to be the best option is in the >25 to <100 AP market 
(<25 easily fits into Aruba Instant, Ruckus Unleashed, etc) or the small 
business vendor-managed market.

Thomas Carter
Network & Operations Manager / IT
Austin College
900 North Grand Avenue
Sherman, TX 75090
Phone: 903-813-2564
www.austincollege.edu

RE: Wireless Options

[Osborne, Bruce W (Network Operations)]

With Aruba APs you do not trunk VLANs to the APs.

Just sayin’ 😉


Bruce Osborne
Senior Network Engineer
Network Operations - Wireless
 (434) 592-4229
LIBERTY UNIVERSITY
Training Champions for Christ since 1971

From: Lee H Badman [mailto:lhbad...@syr.edu]
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: Wireless Options

I struggle with this question, too (cloud versus not) as a long-time user of 
both. The need to trunk VLANs to cloud-based APs in a big environment is more 
of an issue to me than code paradigms. Absolutely nothing could be worse than a 
certain vendor’s appliance-based controller code quality track record over the 
last 12 years. A culture of “accepted suck” seems to pervade over that business 
unit and their most loyal customers, while I scratch my head over why there 
hasn’t been a class-action lawsuit over the entire mess. Now add automation to 
the mix and hang on for THAT thrill ride.

I’d love to have no more controllers, but the VLAN thing is tough to swallow.

-Lee Badman

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
On Behalf Of Osborne, Bruce W (Network Operations)
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 8:33 AM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Options

With a cloud solution, if they mess up feature addition you are stuck with that 
latest version, correct? With controller-based ot Aruba Instant type scenarios 
you are in charge of when to upgrade, waiting for stable builds.


Bruce Osborne
Senior Network Engineer
Network Operations - Wireless
 (434) 592-4229
LIBERTY UNIVERSITY
Training Champions for Christ since 1971

From: Enfield III, Charles Albert [mailto:cae...@psu.edu]
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: Wireless Options

The other thing that’s going to change is the functionality.  Jeff was on the 
right track when he talked about vendors with a global presence being better 
able to identify bugs, security flaws etc. and promptly diagnose and patch 
them.  They’re also better positioned to apply machine learning and AI to the 
problems of network security and Wi-Fi optimization.  If they’re doing things 
right, the cloud product won’t be a hamstrung version of the controller 
product.  It will be a better version of the controller product.

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
On Behalf Of Jeffrey D. Sessler
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 1:30 PM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Options

One of the difficulties in comparing TCO is around staffing. Both estimating 
how much time staff really spend on the current solution, but also taking into 
account base salary with benefits. At many colleges, benefits can add another 
30%+ to the cost of a person. As such, the elimination (or reallocation) of one 
FTE has a huge impact on on-premise vs cloud comparisons. That single FTE could 
be $100K (salary + benefits) per year, saving (or reallocating) $700K over 
those 7 years.

In a lot of our cloud shift, those FTE’s have been re-allocated into more 
important roles such as security.

Jeff

From: 
"wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu" 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
on behalf of Thomas Carter 
mailto:tcar...@austincollege.edu>>
Reply-To: 
"wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu" 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>>
Date: Friday, May 18, 2018 at 8:43 AM
To: 
"wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu" 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>>
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Options

For cloud to really take over, the costs need to drop. We just went through a 
similar thing and are of a similar size (~300 APs), and the cloud on-going OpEx 
costs dropped them out of the race. The simplicity of costs budgeting is nice, 
but 7 year TCO is no contest.

Where they currently seem to be the best option is in the >25 to <100 AP market 
(<25 easily fits into Aruba Instant, Ruckus Unleashed, etc) or the small 
business vendor-managed market.

Thomas Carter
Network & Operations Manager / IT
Austin College
900 North Grand Avenue
Sherman, TX 75090
Phone: 903-813-2564
www.austincollege.edu

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
On Behalf Of Jeffrey D. Sessler
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 10:07 AM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-L