RE: XPS 15 Laptop - Killer Networking NIC Experience

[Johnson, Christopher]

Joel - You are correct. Intel bought/acquired them in May this year from an 
article I saw.

Brad - Thank you! That was very helpful - I'm skeptic when I see NICs 
'demolished' on a forum - while at same time - I my self have come across 
terrible NICs (Broadcom Adapter that sees the worst 5GHz signal as 100% Quality 
- Face Palm). I would be interested in discussing further and can e-mail you 
directly.

Thank you all for your input and hope you have a good weekend!
Christopher Johnson
Wireless Network Engineer
Office of Technology Solutions | Illinois State University
(309) 438-8444

Stay connected with ISU IT news and tips with @ISU IT Help on 
Facebook and 
Twitter
From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 On Behalf Of Floyd, Brad
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 1:59 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] XPS 15 Laptop - Killer Networking NIC Experience

[This message came from an external source. If suspicious, report to 
ab...@ilstu.edu]
Christopher,
We have had a group of users for years that have Alienware laptops with the 
Killer Wireless chips in them. The only wireless connection / reliability issue 
we have seen were due to a couple of settings in the "Killer Control Center" 
(KCC) that manages wireless chip settings / features. The settings we have 
found in KCC are extremely wirelessly disruptive to a percentage of users. We 
change those settings, but find that some driver version upgrades reset them. 
These settings affect users on both our 802.1X and open guest wireless 
networks. I hope this helps. If you want to discuss further, let me know.
Thanks,
Brad

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Johnson, Christopher
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 12:50 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] XPS 15 Laptop - Killer Networking NIC Experience

[EXTERNAL SENDER]
Good Afternoon everyone,

Curious what everyone's experience has been with the "Killer Networking  - 
https://support.killernetworking.com/"; NICs - probably not the best name for a 
product? Which seemed to have been included with the Dell XPS 15 laptop? If 
they're as "stay far away from" as a couple forum posts I've seen - where Dell 
was just flat out been replacing them under warranty with Intel 8265 NICs - 
https://www.dell.com/community/Laptops-General-Read-Only/XPS-15-9560-Killer-Wireless-killing-my-network/td-p/5095933
I'm not looking at replacing them. One of the staff members on campus mentioned 
this issue to me (issues at home and on-campus) - latest drivers, etc. Trying 
to determine if recommending an alternate card preferable - or tweaking some of 
the driver sets might be best.
Christopher Johnson
Wireless Network Engineer
Office of Technology Solutions | Illinois State University
(309) 438-8444

Stay connected with ISU IT news and tips with @ISU IT Help on 
Facebook and 
Twitter

**
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RE: XPS 15 Laptop - Killer Networking NIC Experience

[Floyd, Brad]

Christopher,
We have had a group of users for years that have Alienware laptops with the 
Killer Wireless chips in them. The only wireless connection / reliability issue 
we have seen were due to a couple of settings in the "Killer Control Center" 
(KCC) that manages wireless chip settings / features. The settings we have 
found in KCC are extremely wirelessly disruptive to a percentage of users. We 
change those settings, but find that some driver version upgrades reset them. 
These settings affect users on both our 802.1X and open guest wireless 
networks. I hope this helps. If you want to discuss further, let me know.
Thanks,
Brad

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Johnson, Christopher
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 12:50 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] XPS 15 Laptop - Killer Networking NIC Experience

[EXTERNAL SENDER]
Good Afternoon everyone,

Curious what everyone's experience has been with the "Killer Networking  - 
https://support.killernetworking.com/"; NICs - probably not the best name for a 
product? Which seemed to have been included with the Dell XPS 15 laptop? If 
they're as "stay far away from" as a couple forum posts I've seen - where Dell 
was just flat out been replacing them under warranty with Intel 8265 NICs - 
https://www.dell.com/community/Laptops-General-Read-Only/XPS-15-9560-Killer-Wireless-killing-my-network/td-p/5095933
I'm not looking at replacing them. One of the staff members on campus mentioned 
this issue to me (issues at home and on-campus) - latest drivers, etc. Trying 
to determine if recommending an alternate card preferable - or tweaking some of 
the driver sets might be best.
Christopher Johnson
Wireless Network Engineer
Office of Technology Solutions | Illinois State University
(309) 438-8444

Stay connected with ISU IT news and tips with @ISU IT Help on 
Facebook and 
Twitter

**
Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire community 
list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the message, copy and 
paste their email address and forward the email reply. Additional participation 
and subscription information can be found at https://www.educause.edu/community

**
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and subscription information can be found at https://www.educause.edu/community

Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] XPS 15 Laptop - Killer Networking NIC Experience

[Coehoorn, Joel]

IIRC, Killer is owned by Intel now, and it's supposed to be a high-end
consumer line. The issue is, because it's more of a boutique product, the
drivers aren't just there already in Windows.

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 12:49 PM Johnson, Christopher 
wrote:

> Good Afternoon everyone,
>
>
>
> Curious what everyone’s experience has been with the “Killer Networking  -
> https://support.killernetworking.com/” NICs – probably not the best name
> for a product? Which seemed to have been included with the Dell XPS 15
> laptop? If they’re as “stay far away from” as a couple forum posts I’ve
> seen – where Dell was just flat out been replacing them under warranty with
> Intel 8265 NICs -
> https://www.dell.com/community/Laptops-General-Read-Only/XPS-15-9560-Killer-Wireless-killing-my-network/td-p/5095933
>
> I’m not looking at replacing them. One of the staff members on campus
> mentioned this issue to me (issues at home and on-campus) – latest drivers,
> etc. Trying to determine if recommending an alternate card preferable – or
> tweaking some of the driver sets might be best.
>
> *Christopher Johnson*
> Wireless Network Engineer
> Office of Technology Solutions | Illinois State University
> (309) 438-8444
>
> Stay connected with ISU IT news and tips with @ISU IT Help on Facebook
>  and Twitter
> 
>
> **
> Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire
> community list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the
> message, copy and paste their email address and forward the email reply.
> Additional participation and subscription information can be found at
> https://www.educause.edu/community
>

**
Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire community 
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paste their email address and forward the email reply. Additional participation 
and subscription information can be found at https://www.educause.edu/community

XPS 15 Laptop - Killer Networking NIC Experience

[Johnson, Christopher]

Good Afternoon everyone,

Curious what everyone's experience has been with the "Killer Networking  - 
https://support.killernetworking.com/"; NICs - probably not the best name for a 
product? Which seemed to have been included with the Dell XPS 15 laptop? If 
they're as "stay far away from" as a couple forum posts I've seen - where Dell 
was just flat out been replacing them under warranty with Intel 8265 NICs - 
https://www.dell.com/community/Laptops-General-Read-Only/XPS-15-9560-Killer-Wireless-killing-my-network/td-p/5095933

I'm not looking at replacing them. One of the staff members on campus mentioned 
this issue to me (issues at home and on-campus) - latest drivers, etc. Trying 
to determine if recommending an alternate card preferable - or tweaking some of 
the driver sets might be best.
Christopher Johnson
Wireless Network Engineer
Office of Technology Solutions | Illinois State University
(309) 438-8444

Stay connected with ISU IT news and tips with @ISU IT Help on 
Facebook and 
Twitter

**
Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire community 
list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the message, copy and 
paste their email address and forward the email reply. Additional participation 
and subscription information can be found at https://www.educause.edu/community

RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Icing ISE 2.1 but where to jump

[Lee H Badman]

Glad it's working out for you, Jeff. I didn't mention a bad relationship with 
the vendor, BTW.

Lee Badman | Network Architect (CWNE#200)
Information Technology Services
(NDD Group)
206 Machinery Hall
120 Smith Drive
Syracuse, New York 13244
t 315.443.3003   e lhbad...@syr.edu w its.syr.edu
SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY
syr.edu

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 On Behalf Of Jeffrey D. Sessler
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 11:49 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Icing ISE 2.1 but where to jump

I don't know Lee, within our consortium of 5 undergrad and 2 grad universities, 
all running AireOS-based WLCs, the reliability has been exceptional.  My last 
show-stopper (WLC crash) was way back in 5.x days.  Sure, there have been AP 
radio code challenges, but most of those were wayward client devices that had 
to have their behavior dealt with at the AP radio code level.

This is purely my experience, but when I ran into those AP<->client radio 
issues with my first customer ship 3800's, the Cisco wireless BU worked 
directly with us on resolution, with rapid radio code updates to work around 
the client challenges.  I couldn't ask for a better relationship with a vendor.

It surprises me that any vendor's WiFi in EDU's work reliably given the myriad 
of client devices, OS versions, and chipsets we deal with. It was certainly the 
case when my consortium had Aruba too, that the grass wasn't greener... they 
had their gopher problems, and Cisco had prairie dogs.

I do think the future is in SaaS/IaaS, where the vendor has much better 
visibility on its installed base, and can capture assurance data to help with 
rapid code improvement. The reality is, must customers aren't sophisticated 
enough, or have the teams in-place, to diagnose WiFi issues, but a vendor with 
insight into their installed-base deployment would.

All my best,
Jeff

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
On Behalf Of Lee H Badman
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 8:15 AM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Icing ISE 2.1 but where to jump

Agreed. I'd go so far as to say that I have never seen or heard of a buggier 
product set than the AireOS WLCs. I can't imagine Airespace would have survived 
over time had Cisco not bought them to get into the thin AP paradigm given the 
chronic code issues.

Lee Badman | Network Architect (CWNE#200)
Information Technology Services
(NDD Group)
206 Machinery Hall
120 Smith Drive
Syracuse, New York 13244
t 315.443.3003   e lhbad...@syr.edu w its.syr.edu
SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY
syr.edu

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
On Behalf Of Gray, Sean
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 10:57 AM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Icing ISE 2.1 but where to jump

Hopefully that means we are moving back to functionality over features for a 
few patches. That's certainly not been the case for newer WLC code trains

Sean Gray | B.Sc (Hons)
Voice, Collaboration & Wireless Network Analyst
ITS, University of Lethbridge

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
On Behalf Of Jake Snyder
Sent: July 16, 2020 3:12 PM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Icing ISE 2.1 but where to jump

Caution: This email was sent from someone outside of the University of 
Lethbridge. Do not click on links or open attachments unless you know they are 
safe. Please forward suspicious emails to 
phish...@uleth.ca.

Typically I've monitored the release cycle on patches to determine how "bad" 
things were.

In the olden days, Cisco would release a patch when a fixed number of serious 
issues were resolved.  You could then track how many serious bugs were being 
fixed by the interval between patches.  Quicker patches means more issues with 
a higher severity.  If the intervals between patches went down, things were 
starting to stabilize.  So if you saw a patch two months in a row, it might be 
a "let's wait for the next one."

Not sure that will hold true, now that Cisco is saying that "all" releases will 
be stable-train moving forward for ISE.  I see it's been a while from 2.7 to 
2.7p1.  That could be a good sign.  Typically I would wait 2 months before 
upgrading to make sure there weren't repeated patches.  You see this even with 
some long-lived trains that have patches 8,9,10,11 all very close together.


On Jul 16, 2020, at 2:02 PM, Ciesinski, Nick 
mailto:ciesi...@uww.edu>> wrote:

ISE 2.7 is a stable release. Cisco released very few new features and instead 
focused a lot of bug fixes in 2.6 and 2.7.


***

RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Icing ISE 2.1 but where to jump

[Jeffrey D. Sessler]

I don't know Lee, within our consortium of 5 undergrad and 2 grad universities, 
all running AireOS-based WLCs, the reliability has been exceptional.  My last 
show-stopper (WLC crash) was way back in 5.x days.  Sure, there have been AP 
radio code challenges, but most of those were wayward client devices that had 
to have their behavior dealt with at the AP radio code level.

This is purely my experience, but when I ran into those AP<->client radio 
issues with my first customer ship 3800's, the Cisco wireless BU worked 
directly with us on resolution, with rapid radio code updates to work around 
the client challenges.  I couldn't ask for a better relationship with a vendor.

It surprises me that any vendor's WiFi in EDU's work reliably given the myriad 
of client devices, OS versions, and chipsets we deal with. It was certainly the 
case when my consortium had Aruba too, that the grass wasn't greener... they 
had their gopher problems, and Cisco had prairie dogs.

I do think the future is in SaaS/IaaS, where the vendor has much better 
visibility on its installed base, and can capture assurance data to help with 
rapid code improvement. The reality is, must customers aren't sophisticated 
enough, or have the teams in-place, to diagnose WiFi issues, but a vendor with 
insight into their installed-base deployment would.

All my best,
Jeff

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 On Behalf Of Lee H Badman
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 8:15 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Icing ISE 2.1 but where to jump

Agreed. I'd go so far as to say that I have never seen or heard of a buggier 
product set than the AireOS WLCs. I can't imagine Airespace would have survived 
over time had Cisco not bought them to get into the thin AP paradigm given the 
chronic code issues.

Lee Badman | Network Architect (CWNE#200)
Information Technology Services
(NDD Group)
206 Machinery Hall
120 Smith Drive
Syracuse, New York 13244
t 315.443.3003   e lhbad...@syr.edu w its.syr.edu
SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY
syr.edu

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
On Behalf Of Gray, Sean
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 10:57 AM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Icing ISE 2.1 but where to jump

Hopefully that means we are moving back to functionality over features for a 
few patches. That's certainly not been the case for newer WLC code trains

Sean Gray | B.Sc (Hons)
Voice, Collaboration & Wireless Network Analyst
ITS, University of Lethbridge

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
On Behalf Of Jake Snyder
Sent: July 16, 2020 3:12 PM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Icing ISE 2.1 but where to jump

Caution: This email was sent from someone outside of the University of 
Lethbridge. Do not click on links or open attachments unless you know they are 
safe. Please forward suspicious emails to 
phish...@uleth.ca.

Typically I've monitored the release cycle on patches to determine how "bad" 
things were.

In the olden days, Cisco would release a patch when a fixed number of serious 
issues were resolved.  You could then track how many serious bugs were being 
fixed by the interval between patches.  Quicker patches means more issues with 
a higher severity.  If the intervals between patches went down, things were 
starting to stabilize.  So if you saw a patch two months in a row, it might be 
a "let's wait for the next one."

Not sure that will hold true, now that Cisco is saying that "all" releases will 
be stable-train moving forward for ISE.  I see it's been a while from 2.7 to 
2.7p1.  That could be a good sign.  Typically I would wait 2 months before 
upgrading to make sure there weren't repeated patches.  You see this even with 
some long-lived trains that have patches 8,9,10,11 all very close together.


On Jul 16, 2020, at 2:02 PM, Ciesinski, Nick 
mailto:ciesi...@uww.edu>> wrote:

ISE 2.7 is a stable release. Cisco released very few new features and instead 
focused a lot of bug fixes in 2.6 and 2.7.


**
Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire community 
list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the message, copy and 
paste their email address and forward the email reply. Additional participation 
and subscription information can be found at https://www.educause.edu/community

**
Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire community 
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Replie

RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Icing ISE 2.1 but where to jump

[Lee H Badman]

Agreed. I'd go so far as to say that I have never seen or heard of a buggier 
product set than the AireOS WLCs. I can't imagine Airespace would have survived 
over time had Cisco not bought them to get into the thin AP paradigm given the 
chronic code issues.

Lee Badman | Network Architect (CWNE#200)
Information Technology Services
(NDD Group)
206 Machinery Hall
120 Smith Drive
Syracuse, New York 13244
t 315.443.3003   e lhbad...@syr.edu w its.syr.edu
SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY
syr.edu

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 On Behalf Of Gray, Sean
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 10:57 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Icing ISE 2.1 but where to jump

Hopefully that means we are moving back to functionality over features for a 
few patches. That's certainly not been the case for newer WLC code trains

Sean Gray | B.Sc (Hons)
Voice, Collaboration & Wireless Network Analyst
ITS, University of Lethbridge

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
On Behalf Of Jake Snyder
Sent: July 16, 2020 3:12 PM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Icing ISE 2.1 but where to jump

Caution: This email was sent from someone outside of the University of 
Lethbridge. Do not click on links or open attachments unless you know they are 
safe. Please forward suspicious emails to 
phish...@uleth.ca.

Typically I've monitored the release cycle on patches to determine how "bad" 
things were.

In the olden days, Cisco would release a patch when a fixed number of serious 
issues were resolved.  You could then track how many serious bugs were being 
fixed by the interval between patches.  Quicker patches means more issues with 
a higher severity.  If the intervals between patches went down, things were 
starting to stabilize.  So if you saw a patch two months in a row, it might be 
a "let's wait for the next one."

Not sure that will hold true, now that Cisco is saying that "all" releases will 
be stable-train moving forward for ISE.  I see it's been a while from 2.7 to 
2.7p1.  That could be a good sign.  Typically I would wait 2 months before 
upgrading to make sure there weren't repeated patches.  You see this even with 
some long-lived trains that have patches 8,9,10,11 all very close together.


On Jul 16, 2020, at 2:02 PM, Ciesinski, Nick 
mailto:ciesi...@uww.edu>> wrote:

ISE 2.7 is a stable release. Cisco released very few new features and instead 
focused a lot of bug fixes in 2.6 and 2.7.


**
Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire community 
list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the message, copy and 
paste their email address and forward the email reply. Additional participation 
and subscription information can be found at https://www.educause.edu/community

**
Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire community 
list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the message, copy and 
paste their email address and forward the email reply. Additional participation 
and subscription information can be found at https://www.educause.edu/community

**
Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire community 
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and subscription information can be found at https://www.educause.edu/community

RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Icing ISE 2.1 but where to jump

[Gray, Sean]

Hopefully that means we are moving back to functionality over features for a 
few patches. That's certainly not been the case for newer WLC code trains

Sean Gray | B.Sc (Hons)
Voice, Collaboration & Wireless Network Analyst
ITS, University of Lethbridge

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 On Behalf Of Jake Snyder
Sent: July 16, 2020 3:12 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Icing ISE 2.1 but where to jump

Caution: This email was sent from someone outside of the University of 
Lethbridge. Do not click on links or open attachments unless you know they are 
safe. Please forward suspicious emails to 
phish...@uleth.ca.

Typically I've monitored the release cycle on patches to determine how "bad" 
things were.

In the olden days, Cisco would release a patch when a fixed number of serious 
issues were resolved.  You could then track how many serious bugs were being 
fixed by the interval between patches.  Quicker patches means more issues with 
a higher severity.  If the intervals between patches went down, things were 
starting to stabilize.  So if you saw a patch two months in a row, it might be 
a "let's wait for the next one."

Not sure that will hold true, now that Cisco is saying that "all" releases will 
be stable-train moving forward for ISE.  I see it's been a while from 2.7 to 
2.7p1.  That could be a good sign.  Typically I would wait 2 months before 
upgrading to make sure there weren't repeated patches.  You see this even with 
some long-lived trains that have patches 8,9,10,11 all very close together.



On Jul 16, 2020, at 2:02 PM, Ciesinski, Nick 
mailto:ciesi...@uww.edu>> wrote:

ISE 2.7 is a stable release. Cisco released very few new features and instead 
focused a lot of bug fixes in 2.6 and 2.7.


**
Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire community 
list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the message, copy and 
paste their email address and forward the email reply. Additional participation 
and subscription information can be found at https://www.educause.edu/community

**
Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire community 
list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the message, copy and 
paste their email address and forward the email reply. Additional participation 
and subscription information can be found at https://www.educause.edu/community