Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not?
Thought I'd jump in this one, sorry if I'm late to the game, I'm a Meru customer and you do not have to have all the aps on the controller broadcasting the same speeds. Broadcast speeds are set in the ESSID section (virtual Cell). I have virtual Cells on campus that have B disabled and the slow speeds of G disabled, while I have other Cells that have all speeds enabled for all 802.11 protocols. All our access points terminate at a single controller. Best, Ryan T. Young Network / Systems Administrator The Masters School Dobbs Ferry, NY 10522 On 6/2/11 7:41 AM, Osborne, Bruce W bosbo...@liberty.edu wrote: Lee, My main point is that since you have written many times about Aruba's wireless offerings, I thought you would be more familiar with their features. The know that a few years ago, at least, I talked with a Meru customer who said the system preferred that all APs on a controller be configured the same, so Cisco is not alone in this regard. I just took exception to the broad brush of painting *all* controller based systems with this deficiency. Bruce Osborne Wireless Network Engineer IT Network Services (434) 592-4229 LIBERTY UNIVERSITY 40 Years of Training Champions for Christ: 1971-2011 -Original Message- From: Lee H Badman [mailto:lhbad...@syr.edu] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 8:06 AM Subject: Re: Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? Hi Bruce- Your confusion is justified. Though I was at the Aruba conference, I am a Cisco customer. I should have put a finer point on my lament- I wish ALL controller-based wireless systems allowed for per AP settings like data rate variances. :) Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Adjunct Instructor, iSchool Syracuse University 315 443-3003 -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Osborne, Bruce W Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 7:30 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? OK, Lee now you have me confused. I have seen you at Aruba user conferences, so I thought you knew their product. I have heard Meru prefers a common setup for all APs on a controller (or at least they did), but I did not think you were using them. Our Aruba system lets us set data rates on an AP or AP group per SSID and the whole multi-controller system is managed from a central interface. Aruba has had these features since before we started evaluating them in late 2006. Even if you set the rated per AP group, you can customize individual APs apart from the group, This is useful if there they have only a couple of settings different from the group. I do not know how long running your beef has been, but that was solved years ago. Aruba also lets you steer clients to the 5GHz band to you can reserve the 2.4GHz band for b/g/n users. Of course, they also handle multicast video over Wi-Fi well too. Note: I am not an Aruba salesman. Just a happy customer. Bruce Osborne Wireless Network Engineer IT Network Services (434) 592-4229 LIBERTY UNIVERSITY 40 Years of Training Champions for Christ: 1971-2011 -Original Message- From: Lee H Badman [mailto:lhbad...@syr.edu] Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 7:20 PM Subject: Re: Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? One of my long running beefs with controller based systems is that data rates settings are per controller. Would be nice to be able to set the two APs I might need for scanners to 11b rates, while letting the other 498 do no less than 5.5. Perhaps I want too much... Sigh. This technology stuff... -Lee Badman From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Osborne, Bruce W [bosbo...@liberty.edu] Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 7:37 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? In our 2.4 network here at Liberty, this is what we setup that works, at least for Aruba APs. Transmit Rates: Only 5.5 higher Basic Rates: 2 5.5 I believe some gaming systems needed to see 2 Mbps as a basic rate, but it did not need to be transmitted. Bruce Osborne Wireless Network Engineer IT Network Services (434) 592-4229 LIBERTY UNIVERSITY 40 Years of Training Champions for Christ: 1971-2011 From: Voll, Toivo [mailto:to...@usf.edu] Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 5:05 PM Subject: Re: Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? We're also running into similar issues with purpose-built PDAs, of the type used to scan tickets and inventory etc. Also, I seem to recall that Nintendo DS will not associate if it doesn't see the 1 Mbps rates. How other universities are dealing with discontinuing support to existing devices would be interesting to hear - or if there's a technical solution someone has devised for this. Toivo
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not?
We have yet to deploy 802.11n, but are starting to investigate, so please excuse the newbie question. Could someone quickly explain the need/logic to set minimum rates on the 2.4ghz radios to run 802.11n at that frequency level? I'm assuming it's to limit the downgrading of the 802.11n performance when the same AP is handling 802.11b/g conversations at low rates? Thanks! Matt ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not?
Lee (and others), correct me if I'm wrong here: Assuming a wireless deployment engineered for density over coverage (lots of APs for clients to connect to), there should be few and far between cases where having all rates enabled would have an impact on your system. That is, very small chance of distant clients, and enough AP's to ensure that the 1/10 of 1% B clients have little to no impact. Jeff Lee H Badman lhbad...@syr.edu 5/31/2011 4:20 PM One of my long running beefs with controller based systems is that data rates settings are per controller. Would be nice to be able to set the two APs I might need for scanners to 11b rates, while letting the other 498 do no less than 5.5. Perhaps I want too much... Sigh. This technology stuff... -Lee Badman From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Osborne, Bruce W [bosbo...@liberty.edu] Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 7:37 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? In our 2.4 network here at Liberty, this is what we setup that works, at least for Aruba APs. Transmit Rates: Only 5.5 higher Basic Rates: 2 5.5 I believe some gaming systems needed to see 2 Mbps as a basic rate, but it did not need to be transmitted. Bruce Osborne Wireless Network Engineer IT Network Services (434) 592-4229 LIBERTY UNIVERSITY 40 Years of Training Champions for Christ: 1971-2011 From: Voll, Toivo [mailto:to...@usf.edu] Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 5:05 PM Subject: Re: Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? We’re also running into similar issues with purpose-built PDAs, of the type used to scan tickets and inventory etc. Also, I seem to recall that Nintendo DS will not associate if it doesn’t see the 1 Mbps rates. How other universities are dealing with discontinuing support to existing devices would be interesting to hear – or if there’s a technical solution someone has devised for this. Toivo Voll Network Administrator Information Technology Communications University of South Florida From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeremy Brake Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 16:29 To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? Rick, What are you doing for Wii users? The last time I checked they required the lowest G speeds in order to associate. Please tell me they fixed it with a new code release for the Wii’s…. http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/dropping-legacy-80211-support-your-infrastruc Jeremy From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Rick Brown Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 2:07 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? Craig, Enabling N on the 2.4 is not a lost cause and will help improve performance if the coverage has been designed properly. As of June 1st we are disabling 11B and all 11G rates below 12Mbps. In order to help steer people to the 5Ghz band we have created an SSID that is only broadcast in that band and publicized it as higher performance. Rick ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not?
Yeah- what he said. -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Hanset, Philippe C Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 2:05 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? One of the reason why we try to limit lower rates is because all BroadCast traffic is sent at the slowest rate (to make sure to reach all clients!) So, even in a dense environment with clients only connected at high rates, slow BC traffic will slow you down Philippe Hanset Univ. of TN On Jun 1, 2011, at 1:35 PM, Jeffrey Sessler wrote: Lee (and others), correct me if I'm wrong here: Assuming a wireless deployment engineered for density over coverage (lots of APs for clients to connect to), there should be few and far between cases where having all rates enabled would have an impact on your system. That is, very small chance of distant clients, and enough AP's to ensure that the 1/10 of 1% B clients have little to no impact. Jeff Lee H Badman lhbad...@syr.edu 5/31/2011 4:20 PM One of my long running beefs with controller based systems is that data rates settings are per controller. Would be nice to be able to set the two APs I might need for scanners to 11b rates, while letting the other 498 do no less than 5.5. Perhaps I want too much... Sigh. This technology stuff... -Lee Badman From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Osborne, Bruce W [bosbo...@liberty.edu] Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 7:37 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? In our 2.4 network here at Liberty, this is what we setup that works, at least for Aruba APs. Transmit Rates: Only 5.5 higher Basic Rates: 2 5.5 I believe some gaming systems needed to see 2 Mbps as a basic rate, but it did not need to be transmitted. Bruce Osborne Wireless Network Engineer IT Network Services (434) 592-4229 LIBERTY UNIVERSITY 40 Years of Training Champions for Christ: 1971-2011 From: Voll, Toivo [mailto:to...@usf.edu] Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 5:05 PM Subject: Re: Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? We're also running into similar issues with purpose-built PDAs, of the type used to scan tickets and inventory etc. Also, I seem to recall that Nintendo DS will not associate if it doesn't see the 1 Mbps rates. How other universities are dealing with discontinuing support to existing devices would be interesting to hear - or if there's a technical solution someone has devised for this. Toivo Voll Network Administrator Information Technology Communications University of South Florida From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeremy Brake Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 16:29 To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? Rick, What are you doing for Wii users? The last time I checked they required the lowest G speeds in order to associate. Please tell me they fixed it with a new code release for the Wii's http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/dropping-legacy-80211-support-your-infrastruc Jeremy From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Rick Brown Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 2:07 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? Craig, Enabling N on the 2.4 is not a lost cause and will help improve performance if the coverage has been designed properly. As of June 1st we are disabling 11B and all 11G rates below 12Mbps. In order to help steer people to the 5Ghz band we have created an SSID that is only broadcast in that band and publicized it as higher performance. Rick ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1375 / Virus Database: 1511/3673 - Release Date: 06/01/11 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not?
Rick, What are you doing for Wii users? The last time I checked they required the lowest G speeds in order to associate. Please tell me they fixed it with a new code release for the Wii’s…. http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/dropping-legacy-80211-support-your-infrastruc Jeremy From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Rick Brown Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 2:07 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? Craig, Enabling N on the 2.4 is not a lost cause and will help improve performance if the coverage has been designed properly. As of June 1st we are disabling 11B and all 11G rates below 12Mbps. In order to help steer people to the 5Ghz band we have created an SSID that is only broadcast in that band and publicized it as higher performance. Rick On 5/26/2011 2:22 PM, Craig Simons wrote: Design question for you all: Currently we have b/g enabled on our 2.4ghz radios and a/n on our 5ghz radios as carrot to entice users to buy/use a 5ghz capable wireless adapter. However, even with band preferencing enabled (or steering depending on the vendor), we still have a 75/25% split of 2.4 to 5 users. So my question is this, is there any point of enabling .11n on the 2.4 radio given that it will be in protection mode most of the time? As I can't really enable channel bonding on the 2.4 band to get the real speed increases of .11n, will users still get better performance overall. More importantly, would I get better performance in a user dense environment (more packets transmitted by .11n clients in the same time-slice thereby freeing up the channel for other clients, etc)? I'm of the opinion that guaranteeing great wireless performance is a lost cause on the 2.4 band, but I'd like to tweak as many things as possible to get the best performance in dense areas. Regards, Craig -- Craig Simons Network Operations Simon Fraser University Burnaby BC, Canada em. craigsim...@sfu.camailto:craigsim...@sfu.ca ph. 778-782-8036 ce. 604-649-7977 tw. twitter.com/simonscraig -- ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. -- [cid:image001.gif@01CC1C81.CE705910] ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. inline: image001.gif
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not?
We’re also running into similar issues with purpose-built PDAs, of the type used to scan tickets and inventory etc. Also, I seem to recall that Nintendo DS will not associate if it doesn’t see the 1 Mbps rates. How other universities are dealing with discontinuing support to existing devices would be interesting to hear – or if there’s a technical solution someone has devised for this. Toivo Voll Network Administrator Information Technology Communications University of South Florida From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeremy Brake Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 16:29 To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? Rick, What are you doing for Wii users? The last time I checked they required the lowest G speeds in order to associate. Please tell me they fixed it with a new code release for the Wii’s…. http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/dropping-legacy-80211-support-your-infrastruc Jeremy From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Rick Brown Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 2:07 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? Craig, Enabling N on the 2.4 is not a lost cause and will help improve performance if the coverage has been designed properly. As of June 1st we are disabling 11B and all 11G rates below 12Mbps. In order to help steer people to the 5Ghz band we have created an SSID that is only broadcast in that band and publicized it as higher performance. Rick
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not?
Well, you learn something new everyday. Gaming consoles are already a sore point being as they don't support WPA2-Enterprise, just PSK. In our case, thankfully, the connectivity for our residences is provided by a 3rd party, so it's someone else's problem... However, it's good to know there are more repercussions to disabling higher data rates other than smaller cells sizes. Taking steps to properly provide guaranteed bandwidth (I use the term guaranteed loosely of course) to a large lecture theatre full of dignitaries will ultimately trump the need to allow gaming devices in my opinion. But that's me talking, not my CIO ;) -- Craig Simons Network Operations Simon Fraser University Burnaby BC, Canada em. craigsim...@sfu.ca ph. 778-782-8036 ce. 604-649-7977 tw. twitter.com/simonscraig -- - Original Message - From: Toivo Voll to...@usf.edu To: WIRELESS-LAN@listserv.educause.edu Sent: Friday, 27 May, 2011 14:05:16 Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? We’re also running into similar issues with purpose-built PDAs, of the type used to scan tickets and inventory etc. Also, I seem to recall that Nintendo DS will not associate if it doesn’t see the 1 Mbps rates. How other universities are dealing with discontinuing support to existing devices would be interesting to hear – or if there’s a technical solution someone has devised for this. Toivo Voll Network Administrator Information Technology Communications University of South Florida From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeremy Brake Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 16:29 To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? Rick, What are you doing for Wii users? The last time I checked they required the lowest G speeds in order to associate. Please tell me they fixed it with a new code release for the Wii’s…. http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/dropping-legacy-80211-support-your-infrastruc Jeremy From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Rick Brown Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 2:07 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not? Craig, Enabling N on the 2.4 is not a lost cause and will help improve performance if the coverage has been designed properly. As of June 1st we are disabling 11B and all 11G rates below 12Mbps. In order to help steer people to the 5Ghz band we have created an SSID that is only broadcast in that band and publicized it as higher performance. Rick ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Dual radio APs, .11n on 2.4ghz radios or not?
Craig, Enabling N on the 2.4 is not a lost cause and will help improve performance if the coverage has been designed properly. As of June 1st we are disabling 11B and all 11G rates below 12Mbps. In order to help steer people to the 5Ghz band we have created an SSID that is only broadcast in that band and publicized it as higher performance. Rick On 5/26/2011 2:22 PM, Craig Simons wrote: Design question for you all: Currently we have b/g enabled on our 2.4ghz radios and a/n on our 5ghz radios as carrot to entice users to buy/use a 5ghz capable wireless adapter. However, even with band preferencing enabled (or steering depending on the vendor), we still have a 75/25% split of 2.4 to 5 users. So my question is this, is there any point of enabling .11n on the 2.4 radio given that it will be in protection mode most of the time? As I can't really enable channel bonding on the 2.4 band to get the real speed increases of .11n, will users still get better performance overall. More importantly, would I get better performance in a user dense environment (more packets transmitted by .11n clients in the same time-slice thereby freeing up the channel for other clients, etc)? I'm of the opinion that guaranteeing great wireless performance is a lost cause on the 2.4 band, but I'd like to tweak as many things as possible to get the best performance in dense areas. Regards, Craig -- Craig Simons Network Operations Simon Fraser University Burnaby BC, Canada em. craigsim...@sfu.ca ph. 778-782-8036 ce. 604-649-7977 tw. twitter.com/simonscraig -- ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. -- ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
