RE: [WSG] ordered list for events

2004-01-14 Thread Chris Stratford









That
is border collapse.

The
borders appear the way they are because they are not table borders, but BLOCKS
of text with borders.

That’s
how the  tag changes on mouse over without _javascript_.
And it appears to be the whole table cell…

 



-

Chris
Stratford

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.neester.com

-



 

-Original Message-
From: James Ellis
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004
5:43 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] ordered list
for events

 

Have you tried it with the border-collapse model? I
like border collapse :D, Safari doesn't support it though (soon it will
apparently).
Also, for table cells the vertical-align rule comes into its own.

Cheers
James

Chris Stratford wrote:



Check this TABLE work I did here, it may not fit with validators (havntchecked, and I don't care to really)... But I think its an awesome CSS Table display for a Forum Search engine: http://www.neester.com/hosted/search.php?search=email&type=title took me about 1 hour to get that all up and running!What you think?? -Chris Stratford[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.neester.com-  -Original Message-From: James Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 4:57 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] ordered list for events  Gary Menzel wrote:   



I've got a simple list of events with dates and am trying to keep it  



as a simple ordered list.   



Well - at the risk of getting flamed (fire retardant underwear turned  



up   



to full strength) - this looks to me like it should be a .      



 There's nothing wrong with tables, provided they are used for tabular data like rather than layout. webmail entries,invoices and payments etcmedal tallies (in case you do Smiggins Holes 2010 Winter Olympics site) etc etc  CheersJames*The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/*   *The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/*    




*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*

Re: [WSG] ordered list for events

2004-01-14 Thread Gary Menzel

> There's nothing wrong with tables, provided they are used for tabular
> data like rather than layout.
>
> webmail entries,
> invoices and payments etc
> medal tallies (in case you do Smiggins Holes 2010 Winter Olympics site)
> etc etc

And why not a table of events ? (as in this instance)

First column is "event date", second column is "event title".  The rows
are the events.

It if looks like a table and smells like a table..

I have seen a lot of wonderful stuff in the last 6 months done with HTML
and CSS.

I have also seen a lot of horrid efforts to change things into things that
they dont need to be.

[No offence Peter] But I just cannot see myself marking up that event data
in anything but a table - unless I wanted to display it in some other way
(that would be a different story all together - but my first instinct
would be to call that data tabular unless there were some requirement that
indicated it wasn't).



Gary Menzel
Web Development Manager
IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited
Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000
PH: 07 333 44 828  FX:  07 3834 0828



If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient 
of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or 
any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, 
re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any other way dealing or acting in 
reliance on the information.  If you have received this email in error, we request you 
contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated 
with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged 
client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy 
and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but 
accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted 
without the knowledge of ABN AMRO Morgans.  ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and 
employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the 
basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates 
hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein.  Any 
recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit 
the specific requirements of clients.  Assessments of suitability to an individual?s 
portfolio can only be made after an examination of the particular client?s 
investments, financial circumstances and requirements.

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*



[WSG] the IE whitespace bug and insanity

2004-01-14 Thread Universal Head
Can I just express, perhaps for the several thousandth time here, how 
INCREDIBLY ANNOYING the Win IE whitespace bug is, and how it has been 
responsible for more frustration and wasted time than I can possibly 
express.

If there are any newbies out there - remember, unwanted spaces 
appearing when you view in Win IE, probably means lose those 
formatting spaces in your code - you know, the ones that make it easy 
to read and stay organised.

Thankyou for listening. 

Peter
--
peter gifford

universal head
design that works
visit   7/43 bridge road
stanmore nsw 2048
australia
call(+612) 9517 1466
fax (+612) 9565 4747
email   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sitewww.universalhead.com
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



Re: [WSG] ordered list - accessibility

2004-01-14 Thread russ weakley
Again, completely agree, Gary.

There is another reason why tabular data is more beneficial if marked up
using tables - accessibility!

When a blind user comes to a table, they cannot *see* it as one unit, so
they need ways of tying columns and rows together. You can do this with
tables, you cannot with lists. Admittedly, we have been talking about two
columns, so there is not a great deal of need, but worth keeping in mind
when pushing envelopes  :)

When you use a table correctly (not for page layouts but for true tabular
data) you should also use most/all the accessibility features that go with
it including:

- summary
- caption
- thead and tbody
- th
- id
- headers

You can even use the more obscure ones like:
- scope="col"
- scope="row"

Russ


> 
> And why not a table of events ? (as in this instance)
> 
> First column is "event date", second column is "event title".  The rows
> are the events.
> 
> It if looks like a table and smells like a table..
> 
> I have seen a lot of wonderful stuff in the last 6 months done with HTML
> and CSS.
> 
> I have also seen a lot of horrid efforts to change things into things that
> they dont need to be.
> 
> [No offence Peter] But I just cannot see myself marking up that event data
> in anything but a table - unless I wanted to display it in some other way
> (that would be a different story all together - but my first instinct
> would be to call that data tabular unless there were some requirement that
> indicated it wasn't).
> 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



[WSG] stumped by these ones

2004-01-14 Thread Universal Head
Hope someone can help me with these last problems - I'm stumped.

See

http://www.universalhead.com/clients/jands/

Everything's fine in Safari, Mac Mozilla Firebird, Win Netscape7.1 and Win IE5.

In Win IE 6 the bottom right-hand image goes down underneath the 
others. I've tried everything and can't find a solution.
In Mac IE5.2 the whole layout breaks, and I have no idea why.

Please help! I'm at the home stretch and this is the last hurdle!

CSS is at
http://universalhead.com/clients/jands/css/jands.css
It's a picky business this CSS ain't it?
Many, many thanks,
--
peter gifford

universal head
design that works
visit   7/43 bridge road
stanmore nsw 2048
australia
call(+612) 9517 1466
fax (+612) 9565 4747
email   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sitewww.universalhead.com
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



Re: [WSG] stumped by these ones

2004-01-14 Thread James Ellis
Hey

Thats a very nice site layout.

I hope this helps... it's off the top of my head and untested.

From what I can see you have two main content boxes, the top one 
contains features and latest news. The bottom one contains audio, 
lighting, staging.

So, for the top one you could have a div called "actions" that contains 
a box called "features" and another box called "latestnews".  Both these 
boxes could have a width and margin set and both could be floated left.
Underneath these two boxes you could have  something that clears these 
two (clear  : both);

The box below could be called "servicesoverview" and contain three 
simple divs called "service" that contain your audio lighting and 
staging, rather than use different classes for these. You may need 
another clear : both under these three.

something like :

.services
{
 width :  NNNpx
/* other rules like a margin and padding of 0 */
}
#servicesoverview .service
{
float : left;
width : NNNpx;
margin : 5px; /* this should give you a consistent margin around all 
boxes - put this on the boxes in actions as well */
padding : 0px;
border : 1px #blah solid
}
then...

#servicesoverview .service p
{
rules
}
#servicesoverview .service img.serviceheading
{
rules for the heading image
}
#servicesoverview .service img.servicegraphic
{
rules for your 220x125 pixel images
}
I do a similar thing like this on a few sites, I don't use any hacks for 
getting floats working and layout right...

The above is a bit simpler than the .subfeaturebox 2 & 1 classes you 
have. try it out and see what happens. If you try and keep the CSS 
simple it will look less picky. Descendant selectors help a lot in 
clearing things up.

I'm surprised that mac IE5 craps out where winternet explorer 5 does it 
right.

HTH
James
Universal Head wrote:

Hope someone can help me with these last problems - I'm stumped.

See

http://www.universalhead.com/clients/jands/

Everything's fine in Safari, Mac Mozilla Firebird, Win Netscape7.1 and 
Win IE5.

In Win IE 6 the bottom right-hand image goes down underneath the 
others. I've tried everything and can't find a solution.
In Mac IE5.2 the whole layout breaks, and I have no idea why.

Please help! I'm at the home stretch and this is the last hurdle!

CSS is at
http://universalhead.com/clients/jands/css/jands.css
It's a picky business this CSS ain't it?
Many, many thanks,


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



Re: [WSG] stumped by these ones

2004-01-14 Thread Anders Ebdrup

Hi!

Try adding  before closing the subfeaturebox2 div:



Hope this can help You!


- Original Message - 
From: "Universal Head" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 11:20 AM
Subject: [WSG] stumped by these ones


>
> Hope someone can help me with these last problems - I'm stumped.
>
> See
>
> http://www.universalhead.com/clients/jands/
>
> Everything's fine in Safari, Mac Mozilla Firebird, Win Netscape7.1 and Win
IE5.
>
> In Win IE 6 the bottom right-hand image goes down underneath the
> others. I've tried everything and can't find a solution.
> In Mac IE5.2 the whole layout breaks, and I have no idea why.
>
> Please help! I'm at the home stretch and this is the last hurdle!
>
> CSS is at
> http://universalhead.com/clients/jands/css/jands.css
>
> It's a picky business this CSS ain't it?
> Many, many thanks,
> -- 
>
>
> peter gifford
>
> universal head
> design that works
>
> visit 7/43 bridge road
> stanmore nsw 2048
> australia
> call (+612) 9517 1466
> fax (+612) 9565 4747
> email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> site www.universalhead.com
>
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> *
>

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



Re: [WSG] ordered list - accessibility

2004-01-14 Thread James Ellis
Hey

Roger Hudson did a talk on accessible tables at Sydney moot last 
year and the resource is available here:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/documents/doc_6_accesstable.html

and source here for Firebird users (I think Safari may handle this as 
well?):
view-source:http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/documents/doc_6_accesstable.html

Notice that he doesn't use theads around the  bits.?? but he 
does use ids and headers to full effect.

I've used a number of items Roger talked about in getting some of my 
tables to be as light as possible, accessible and nicely presented with CSS.
e.g

#listing
{
}
#listing table
{
}
#listing thead. etc etc

Now  i can remove all those damn inline html "styles"

HTH
James
russ weakley wrote:

Again, completely agree, Gary.

There is another reason why tabular data is more beneficial if marked up
using tables - accessibility!
When a blind user comes to a table, they cannot *see* it as one unit, so
they need ways of tying columns and rows together. You can do this with
tables, you cannot with lists. Admittedly, we have been talking about two
columns, so there is not a great deal of need, but worth keeping in mind
when pushing envelopes  :)
When you use a table correctly (not for page layouts but for true tabular
data) you should also use most/all the accessibility features that go with
it including:
- summary
- caption
- thead and tbody
- th
- id
- headers
You can even use the more obscure ones like:
- scope="col"
- scope="row"
Russ

 

And why not a table of events ? (as in this instance)

First column is "event date", second column is "event title".  The rows
are the events.
It if looks like a table and smells like a table..

I have seen a lot of wonderful stuff in the last 6 months done with HTML
and CSS.
I have also seen a lot of horrid efforts to change things into things that
they dont need to be.
[No offence Peter] But I just cannot see myself marking up that event data
in anything but a table - unless I wanted to display it in some other way
(that would be a different story all together - but my first instinct
would be to call that data tabular unless there were some requirement that
indicated it wasn't).
   

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

 



*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



RE: [WSG] stumped by these ones

2004-01-14 Thread David McDonald

Peter,

Nice design!

I've noticed in previous layouts that I have done, that Mac IE 5 needs every
float to have an accompanying width or it does crap out. 

I've also noticed that if the width is within the "voice family" hack, as it
is in some of your CSS, then Mac IE 5 tends to ignore it.

The solution I have used is either to send another stylesheet to Mac IE 5,
by doing something like:

@import 'stylesheet.css';   /* for everyone but mac ie 5 */
@im\port "macstylesheet.css";   /* for mac ie5 */

...which is another hack and probably not the best solution.

Or you could try to get rid of the "voice family" hacks. This would probably
involve using a strict doctype though, and may be a bit more work.

A great resource on Mac IE 5 CSS bugs can be found at:

http://www.macedition.com/cb/ie5macbugs/

Once again - great looking site! Well done!

Regards,

David McDonald
Web Designer

http://www.davidmcdonald.org

Southbank, Melbourne
Australia

Mobile: 0403 332 140
ICQ: 11814164

-Original Message-
From: Universal Head [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, 14 January 2004 9:20 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] stumped by these ones



Hope someone can help me with these last problems - I'm stumped.

See

http://www.universalhead.com/clients/jands/

Everything's fine in Safari, Mac Mozilla Firebird, Win Netscape7.1 and Win
IE5.

In Win IE 6 the bottom right-hand image goes down underneath the 
others. I've tried everything and can't find a solution.
In Mac IE5.2 the whole layout breaks, and I have no idea why.

Please help! I'm at the home stretch and this is the last hurdle!

CSS is at
http://universalhead.com/clients/jands/css/jands.css

It's a picky business this CSS ain't it?
Many, many thanks,
-- 


peter gifford

universal head
design that works

visit   7/43 bridge road
stanmore nsw 2048
australia
call(+612) 9517 1466
fax (+612) 9565 4747
email   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sitewww.universalhead.com

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*



[WSG] :hover hides text

2004-01-14 Thread Flemming Hoffmeyer








Hi all

 

I’m having two problems
I was hoping you could give me a hint…



Problem 1: 

The text in the top div with
the heading “HF-Vestsjælland” keeps disappearing
when I hover the menu, or otherwise refreshes the page
(i.e. changing windows) 

It only happens in IE as far
as I know. It displays fine in mozilla.

 

Problem 2:

The top div on the page
starts about 5 pixels too far left. The css is
identical for all of the boxes. Again this only happens in IE 

 

Hopefully somebody can help
as I am tearing my hair out over this. 



The page is www.smartpage.dk/ny/referencer/



Flemming Hoffmeyer

SmartPage Webdesign
Lavlandsvej 35
4400 Kalundborg
Denmark
Tlf.: (+45) 51 96 62 62

 

 








[WSG] re: Sarari CSS

2004-01-14 Thread Vaska . WSG
Hi all,

I actually hate to ask this, but awhile back I found a resource that 
had all the possible (both currently supported and not) CSS attributes 
for the Safari browser.  Additionally, it also had Mozilla I believe.

Does anybody know where I might find this (these)?

Actually, I guess this is off the path from web standards, but I'm 
still trying to track it down.

Thanks much...v

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



[WSG] QA practices

2004-01-14 Thread Gavin Thomas

HI,

Just wanted to say hi  - i have just joined this group and noticed that 
a lot of you are from Australia!.. are there ppl from elsewhere?

I have been involved with web standards for about 6 months now and am a 
major advocate -

I would like to know what Quality Assurance procedures/practices people 
have in place to make sure ur sites adhere to web standards. I am in the 
process of drawing up some documents so I can assess sites on compliance 
of web standards (i.e validation, accessibility,compatibility) Does 
anyone else have the same? or any good examples of this?

thought i'd share some of the sites i view daily

Oh and the best css app is topstyle 
(http://www.bradsoft.com/topstyle/index.asp)



web standards resources I use are:

www.accessify.com
www.sitepoint.com
www.alistapart.com
http://digital-web.com/new/


standards/css (blog) sites I like:

www.alistapart.com
www.andybudd.com/blog
www.simplebits.com
www.stopdesign.com
www.hicksdesign.co.uk
www.mezzoblue.com
www.csszengarden.com


Gavin Thomas
Web Developer
University of the West of England
I.T. Services (Academic Technologies Group)
Frenchay Campus
Bristol BS16 1QY

e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
---
SECURITY POLICY
Please note that ATG only accept e-mail
attachments in the following formats:
.doc, .gif, .htm, .jpg, .mdb,
.png, .xls, .zip.
---
This communication is intended solely for
the use of the individual(s) to whom it is
addressed. Any opinions presented are those
of the author and do not necessarily
represent the University of the West of
England, Bristol.
---




This email has been independently scanned for viruses and any virus detected has been 
removed using McAfee anti-virus software

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



Re: [WSG] re: Sarari CSS

2004-01-14 Thread russ weakley
Hi Vaska,
Are you talking about a Safari browser support chart? Like this:
http://www.macedition.com/cb/resources/macbrowsercsssupport.html

Russ


> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I actually hate to ask this, but awhile back I found a resource that
> had all the possible (both currently supported and not) CSS attributes
> for the Safari browser.  Additionally, it also had Mozilla I believe.
> 
> Does anybody know where I might find this (these)?
> 
> Actually, I guess this is off the path from web standards, but I'm
> still trying to track it down.
> 
> Thanks much...v

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



Re: [WSG] QA practices

2004-01-14 Thread russ weakley
Hi Gavin,
Welcome to the WSG list!

The WSG has members in many cities/countries. At present we have about 200
members (growing daily) including members from:

Australia (NSW, Vic, WA), Austria, Belgium (4), Brazil (4), Canada (4),
Denmark, France, Germany (2), Iceland, India (2), Italy (4), Netherlands
(3), New Zealand (2), Phillipines, Russia, Spain (3), Sweden (3), United
Kingdom (8), USA (30) across a wide range of states.

We are keen to have meetings start up in any city that is interested. The
mailing list is great, but meeting other developers face to face is a real
buzz - especially when established so that each meeting can have set topics
and presentations.

If you are keen to start something, let us know and we will do what we can
to help. Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Melbourne, Australia is now set up and we have a first meeting date set for
Monday March 15! Special guest for the first meeting, flying in just for the
meeting) will be John Allsopp.

Of course if you are free tonight, you can always come to the Sydney
(Australia) meeting  :)


> 
> HI,
> 
> Just wanted to say hi  - i have just joined this group and noticed that
> a lot of you are from Australia!.. are there ppl from elsewhere?
> 
> I have been involved with web standards for about 6 months now and am a
> major advocate -
> 
> I would like to know what Quality Assurance procedures/practices people
> have in place to make sure ur sites adhere to web standards. I am in the
> process of drawing up some documents so I can assess sites on compliance
> of web standards (i.e validation, accessibility,compatibility) Does
> anyone else have the same? or any good examples of this?
> 
> thought i'd share some of the sites i view daily
> 
> Oh and the best css app is topstyle
> (http://www.bradsoft.com/topstyle/index.asp)
> 
> 
> 
> web standards resources I use are:
> 
> www.accessify.com
> www.sitepoint.com
> www.alistapart.com
> http://digital-web.com/new/
> 
> 
> standards/css (blog) sites I like:
> 
> www.alistapart.com
> www.andybudd.com/blog
> www.simplebits.com
> www.stopdesign.com
> www.hicksdesign.co.uk
> www.mezzoblue.com
> www.csszengarden.com
> 
> 
> Gavin Thomas
> Web Developer
> University of the West of England
> I.T. Services (Academic Technologies Group)
> Frenchay Campus
> Bristol BS16 1QY
> 
> e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ---
> SECURITY POLICY
> Please note that ATG only accept e-mail
> attachments in the following formats:
> .doc, .gif, .htm, .jpg, .mdb,
> .png, .xls, .zip.
> ---
> This communication is intended solely for
> the use of the individual(s) to whom it is
> addressed. Any opinions presented are those
> of the author and do not necessarily
> represent the University of the West of
> England, Bristol.
> ---
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This email has been independently scanned for viruses and any virus detected
> has been removed using McAfee anti-virus software
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> *

Thanks
Russ

---
Russ Weakley
Max Design
Phone: (02) 9410 2521
Mobile: 0403 433 980
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.maxdesign.com.au
---


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



Re: [WSG] ordered list for events

2004-01-14 Thread Kristof Neirynck
russ weakley wrote:
Many ways to skin a cat. A standard table is acceptable but so is a
definition list:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/peterottery.htm
You could use negative margins to avoid the 3px bug that occurs when 
floating the dt's in msiewin.



The big disadvantage is the left-over space at the bottom.
Everything that directly follows the dl will overlap it.
--
Kristof
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



[WSG] Semi-direct contact with the IE development team?

2004-01-14 Thread russ weakley
You may have already seen this blog entry about the Internet Explorer
development team.

"It's not every day that you get invited out to lunch by the guy who runs
the team that makes software that hundreds of millions of people use. ...
So, the door is open. What do you want from the Internet Explorer team?"
http://radio.weblogs.com/0001011/

A lot of good comments. Could this mean that that they might listen to
developers?  :)
 
Russ

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



Re: [WSG] QA practices

2004-01-14 Thread Universal Head
Enjoy tonight everyone - I have a previous engagement but I'm very 
much looking forward to meeting some of you next time. 
Peter

Of course if you are free tonight, you can always come to the Sydney
(Australia) meeting  :)
--

peter gifford

universal head
design that works
visit   7/43 bridge road
stanmore nsw 2048
australia
call(+612) 9517 1466
fax (+612) 9565 4747
email   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sitewww.universalhead.com
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



[WSG] Table or CSS?

2004-01-14 Thread Taco Fleur
Title: Message



I read the thread 
about using tables for tabular data, I don't think the following is tabular 
data, or is it?
I'm having a hard 
time trying to achieve the layout with CSS.
 
I have a form in 
which I'd like the following layout
 
   
[form field aligned right]  [text aligned left]
   
[form field aligned right]  [text aligned left]
   
[form field aligned right]  [text aligned 
left]
 
where right equals 45% from the 
left and left equals 55% from the left, leaving 10% space in between, if that 
makes any sense.
Its easy to achieve with a 
table, i.e.
  text
 
Just thinking stupidly, and the 
first thing that comes to my mind is

.test1 {
    
text-align: right;
    
display: inline;
    
position: relative;
    
left: 45%;
}
.test2 {
    
text-align: left;
    
display: inline;
    
position: relative;
    
left: 55%;
}
 
inputtext
Which ofcourse does not 
work
 
Or am I asking a question that 
has already been answered a million times?
 
Taco 
Fleur
Blog 
http://www.tacofleur.com/index/blog/Methodology 
http://www.tacofleur.com/index/methodology/
0421 851 
786Tell me and I will 
forgetShow me and I will rememberTeach me and I will learn 
 


RE: [WSG] Table or CSS?

2004-01-14 Thread Taco Fleur
Title: Message



Crikey!
 
This 
did the trick, but is it save to use and valid?
 

.test1 {
    
text-align: right;
    
border: 1px solid red;
    
display: block;
    
position: absolute;
    
width: 45%;
}
.test2 {
    
text-align: left;
    
border: 1px solid red;
    
display: block;
    
position: absolute;
    
left: 55%;
}
 
test1test2
test1test2
test1test2
 
 
Taco 
Fleur
Blog 
http://www.tacofleur.com/index/blog/Methodology 
http://www.tacofleur.com/index/methodology/
0421 851 
786Tell me and I will 
forgetShow me and I will rememberTeach me and I will learn 

  
  -Original Message-From: Taco Fleur 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 15 January 2004 
  8:20 AMTo: 'Web Standards Group'Subject: [WSG] Table or 
  CSS?
  I read the thread 
  about using tables for tabular data, I don't think the following is tabular 
  data, or is it?
  I'm having a hard 
  time trying to achieve the layout with CSS.
   
  I have a form in 
  which I'd like the following layout
   
     
  [form field aligned right]  [text aligned left]
     
  [form field aligned right]  [text aligned 
left]
     
  [form field aligned right]  [text aligned 
  left]
   
  where right equals 45% from 
  the left and left equals 55% from the left, leaving 10% space in between, if 
  that makes any sense.
  Its easy to achieve with a 
  table, i.e.
    text
   
  Just thinking stupidly, and 
  the first thing that comes to my mind is
  
  .test1 {
      
  text-align: right;
      
  display: inline;
      
  position: relative;
      
  left: 45%;
  }
  .test2 {
      
  text-align: left;
      
  display: inline;
      
  position: relative;
      
  left: 55%;
  }
   
  inputtext
  Which ofcourse does not 
  work
   
  Or am I asking a question 
  that has already been answered a million 
  times?
   
  Taco 
  Fleur
  Blog http://www.tacofleur.com/index/blog/Methodology 
  http://www.tacofleur.com/index/methodology/
  0421 851 
  786Tell me and I will 
  forgetShow me and I will rememberTeach me and I will learn 
  
   


Re: [WSG] Semi-direct contact with the IE development team?

2004-01-14 Thread James Ellis
quote:
Another thing that the commenters generally aren't thinking of is "how 
to get adoption." I keep pointing out that if we fixed the CSS and PNG 
issues, you still wouldn't be able to use those for years. Why? Cause 
consumers (and companies) really don't care about those issues and won't 
download a new version just cause you fixed one or two issues.

---
So they released IE6 in 2000 - if they'd included proper support then 
what would be the footprint of a compliant IE now? This kind of comment 
just doesn't stack up.
Sure CSS and transparent PNG are great for developers but they don't 
have to use those as a major selling point for the browser.

Cheers
James
 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



Re: [WSG] stumped by these ones

2004-01-14 Thread Universal Head

Try adding  before closing the subfeaturebox2 div:

This worked, but I can you explain why? If I add the 'clear:both' 
rule to the .subfeaturebox2 selector it doesn't work - only if I put 
it in the html as described above.

Thanks for the solution but I'd love to understand why it has to be 
done this way.

Cheers
Peter
--
peter gifford

universal head
design that works
visit   7/43 bridge road
stanmore nsw 2048
australia
call(+612) 9517 1466
fax (+612) 9565 4747
email   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sitewww.universalhead.com
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



Re: [WSG] stumped by these ones

2004-01-14 Thread Universal Head
Hi James
Thanks for the kind words and your advice.
The first thing that springs to mind with your solution is that I 
can't use the same selector for the three bottom boxes because the 
margins vary - that's why I used on selector for the left two with a 
right-margin of 10px and another selector for the third with a 
margin-right of 0.

margin : 5px; /* this should give you a consistent margin around all 
boxes - put this on the boxes in actions as well */
for example, this would bring the far left and far right boxes in 
from the left and right sides, when at the moment they're flush.

Let me know if I've misunderstood your email, and thanks again.
Peter
--
peter gifford

universal head
design that works
visit   7/43 bridge road
stanmore nsw 2048
australia
call(+612) 9517 1466
fax (+612) 9565 4747
email   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sitewww.universalhead.com
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



Re: [WSG] stumped by these ones

2004-01-14 Thread James Ellis
With the two containing boxes you could set these margins and paddings 
to 0px and give them a fixed width that is equal.

The two boxes at top and the three in the bottom one could have a margin 
of 5px giving a clearance of 10px around everything except the left and 
right extreme edges. All you would have to do then is make sure the 3 
boxes have a width that matches whats left after the margins are taken 
away from the containing box width.

e.g 5px N 10px N 10px N 5px

So if your main box was 740px N, the width of your three boxes would be 
710px/3... possibly better to work from the inside out so you get 
integer values.

HTH
James
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



[WSG] Recommended CSS navigation code?

2004-01-14 Thread Brendan Smith
Hi all,

After two days of stalling, I'm now in the proverbial. I need to find a CSS based drop 
down menu somewhat like the suckerfish menus for an intranet project "that grew too 
big". I've checked out a few, none really grab me. I had built a menu out of Aaron 
Broodman's ypSlideOutMenus, but it all got too confusing for the users (God knows how, 
it was simple! Too much motion maybe.).

I need it to handle just two levels of navigation, with maybe the possiblity of 
handling a third. It's no biggie if it only handles two however.

Suckerfish doesn't make the grade visually, mainly because the menu is generated from 
a DB and different users get different options. Suckerfish's set menu item width makes 
for an ugly misalignment for items like: "IT" and "Lodgements".

Any options will be considered. The winning menu gets to be in the most convoluted 
project in modern times.

Brendan

<>

Re: [WSG] Recommended CSS navigation code?

2004-01-14 Thread David McDonald


Brendan,

The most flexible, easy to implement and standard comliant menus I have found so far 
come from a member of this list!

http://inspire.server101.com/js/mb/

I have used Ben Boyle's menus, or a variation of, in many sites, including 
http://www.bhpbilliton.com

Regards,

David McDonald
Web Designer
Melbourne, Australia
http://www.davidmcdonald.org

ICQ:11814164

- Original Message -
From: Brendan Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, January 15, 2004 11:05 am
Subject: [WSG] Recommended CSS navigation code?

> Hi all,
> 
> After two days of stalling, I'm now in the proverbial. I need to 
> find a CSS based drop down menu somewhat like the suckerfish menus 
> for an intranet project "that grew too big". I've checked out a 
> few, none really grab me. I had built a menu out of Aaron 
> Broodman's ypSlideOutMenus, but it all got too confusing for the 
> users (God knows how, it was simple! Too much motion maybe.).
> 
> I need it to handle just two levels of navigation, with maybe the 
> possiblity of handling a third. It's no biggie if it only handles 
> two however.
> 
> Suckerfish doesn't make the grade visually, mainly because the 
> menu is generated from a DB and different users get different 
> options. Suckerfish's set menu item width makes for an ugly 
> misalignment for items like: "IT" and "Lodgements".
> 
> Any options will be considered. The winning menu gets to be in the 
> most convoluted project in modern times.
> 
> Brendan
> 
> 
  

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



Re: [WSG] stumped by these ones

2004-01-14 Thread Universal Head
I'm beginning to flirt with the concept of despair - it seems 
everytime I fix something in one browser it causes a problem in 
another browser! I know there's a learning curve with this stuff but 
this is getting ridiculous.

So far this site has taken me double the time it would take to do a 
normal site, all for the pleasure of simplifying the code and giving 
advantages to the client that, to be totally honest, they couldn't 
care a tinker's cuss about.

If someone has the time and the inclination please check this out for 
me and let me know what's going on. After redoing the divs for the 
index page, it's now working for Mac IE5.2 and broken in Win IE6. 
ARGH!

http://www.universalhead.com/clients/jands/
http://universalhead.com/clients/jands/css/jands.css
Much appreciated - save from writing off this whole bloody css 
business as unprofitable!
Peter
--

peter gifford

universal head
design that works
visit   7/43 bridge road
stanmore nsw 2048
australia
call(+612) 9517 1466
fax (+612) 9565 4747
email   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sitewww.universalhead.com
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



RE: [WSG] Recommended CSS navigation code?

2004-01-14 Thread Mark Stanton
The CUE templates have an interesting one - not perfect but has some strong
points.

http://www.qld.gov.au/web/cue/template/

Cheers

Mark


--
Mark Stanton
Technical Director
Gruden Pty Ltd
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201
Fax: 9956 8433
http://www.gruden.com
<>

Re: [WSG] stumped by these ones

2004-01-14 Thread David McDonald


Peter,

You've done great work so far - stick with it!

I know the feeling of frustration with this sort of stuff, but believe me it does get 
a bit easier with each site you build. What also happens is that maintenance on these 
sites becomes very easy as well.

Did my previous post regarding Mac IE 5 needing widths for floats and the issue that 
the "voice-family" hack may be hiding the widths for some floats from Mac IE 5 help at 
all?

Also, try sending a different stylesheet to Mac IE 5:

@import 'nonmac.css';   /* for everyone but mac ie 5 */
@im\port "mac.css"; /* for mac ie5 */

In the short term, if you need to get the project finished quickly, this may now be a 
viable option (i know it's a hack...). This way you can keep your voice family hacks 
within the non-mac CSS, and remove it from the Mac CSS. If you have time at a later 
stage, you can go back and try to minimise the amount of hacks in the non-mac CSS, so 
that it the CSS works cross platform.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

David McDonald
Web Designer
Melbourne, Australia
http://www.davidmcdonald.org

ICQ:11814164

- Original Message -
From: Universal Head <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, January 15, 2004 11:29 am
Subject: Re: [WSG] stumped by these ones

> 
> I'm beginning to flirt with the concept of despair - it seems 
> everytime I fix something in one browser it causes a problem in 
> another browser! I know there's a learning curve with this stuff 
> but 
> this is getting ridiculous.
> 
> So far this site has taken me double the time it would take to do 
> a 
> normal site, all for the pleasure of simplifying the code and 
> giving 
> advantages to the client that, to be totally honest, they couldn't 
> care a tinker's cuss about.
> 
> If someone has the time and the inclination please check this out 
> for 
> me and let me know what's going on. After redoing the divs for the 
> index page, it's now working for Mac IE5.2 and broken in Win IE6. 
> ARGH!
> 
> http://www.universalhead.com/clients/jands/
> http://universalhead.com/clients/jands/css/jands.css
> 
> Much appreciated - save from writing off this whole bloody css 
> business as unprofitable!
> Peter
> -- 
> 
> 
> peter gifford
> 
> universal head
> design that works
> 
> visit 7/43 bridge road
>   stanmore nsw 2048
>   australia
> call  (+612) 9517 1466
> fax   (+612) 9565 4747
> email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> site  www.universalhead.com
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> * 
> 
> 
  

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



RE: [WSG] good coding app

2004-01-14 Thread Stephen Dixon




It's not really any help for you Mac 
bods :) , but HTML-Kit ( http://www.chami.com/html-kit/ ) is 
by far the best coding app that I've found, free or otherwise.  

The base version IS free, which does 
everything I need it to do.  Similar feature set to the aforementioned 
editor, highly customisable and lots of plugins that you can find to do lots of 
handy things (eg. page TOC) or you can make them yourself.
The paid version adds some nifty extra 
add-ons, etc.  
Stephen Dixon Web Content Developer / 
PC Support EngineerWesley Mission IT Phone: (02) 9263-5544 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


**
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
www.mimesweeper.com
**




Re: [WSG] stumped by these ones

2004-01-14 Thread Universal Head

You've done great work so far - stick with it!
But-slowly-going-insane-

I know the feeling of frustration with this sort of stuff, but 
believe me it does get a bit easier with each site you build. What 
also happens is that maintenance on these sites becomes very easy as 
well.
God I hope so because this is fast becoming the least profitable job 
I've done in ten years in the biz!

Did my previous post regarding Mac IE 5 needing widths for floats 
and the issue that the "voice-family" hack may be hiding the widths 
for some floats from Mac IE 5 help at all?
I didn't quite understand this, as how can avoid using the box model 
hack in this case?

Also, try sending a different stylesheet to Mac IE 5:

@import 'nonmac.css';   /* for everyone but mac ie 5 */
@im\port "mac.css";   /* for mac ie5 */
I was sort of hoping that would be a last resort! ;)

In the short term, if you need to get the project finished quickly, 
this may now be a viable option (i know it's a hack...). This way 
you can keep your voice family hacks within the non-mac CSS, and 
remove it from the Mac CSS. If you have time at a later stage, you 
can go back and try to minimise the amount of hacks in the non-mac 
CSS, so that it the CSS works cross platform.
Thanks David, if no one comes up with an elegant (!) solution I'll do 
this. Appreciate the help.

Anyone else gonna take on this sucker??

Peter
--
peter gifford

universal head
design that works
visit   7/43 bridge road
stanmore nsw 2048
australia
call(+612) 9517 1466
fax (+612) 9565 4747
email   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sitewww.universalhead.com
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



[WSG] big trouble...still!

2004-01-14 Thread stuart
Received and e-mail today regarding the unexpected crashing of this 
page *still*
http://www.weddingphotography.com.au/prices/index.htm

After Alastair's suggestion I simply removed the  first letter 
statement from the stylesheet this fixed the problem here on Safari 
and as several people checked the site I assumed all was well?

Can someone please check again for me?
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



RE: [WSG] big trouble...still!

2004-01-14 Thread Peter Ottery
Title: RE: [WSG] big trouble...still!





>> Can someone please check again for me?


yep, its good to go,
it did crash my IE6 on Win2k before, but all is fine now.
pete





Re: [WSG] big trouble...still!

2004-01-14 Thread Gary Menzel

> Can someone please check again for me?

Checked it then in my IE6 (which crashed before).

Works fine now.


Gary Menzel
Web Development Manager
IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited
Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000
PH: 07 333 44 828  FX:  07 3834 0828



If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient 
of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or 
any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, 
re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any other way dealing or acting in 
reliance on the information.  If you have received this email in error, we request you 
contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated 
with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged 
client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy 
and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but 
accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted 
without the knowledge of ABN AMRO Morgans.  ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and 
employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the 
basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates 
hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein.  Any 
recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit 
the specific requirements of clients.  Assessments of suitability to an individual?s 
portfolio can only be made after an examination of the particular client?s 
investments, financial circumstances and requirements.

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*



Re: [WSG] big trouble...still!

2004-01-14 Thread Chris Blown

This may be a caching issue. I tried it here and its OK on IE v6

ChrisB

On Thu, 2004-01-15 at 13:38, stuart wrote:
> Received and e-mail today regarding the unexpected crashing of this 
> page *still*
> http://www.weddingphotography.com.au/prices/index.htm
> 


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 



RE: [WSG] big trouble...still!

2004-01-14 Thread Miles Tillinger

If the css is in a linked file, change the filename to prevent users getting the 
cached version.

-Original Message-
From: Chris Blown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 1:34 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] big trouble...still!



This may be a caching issue. I tried it here and its OK on IE v6

ChrisB

On Thu, 2004-01-15 at 13:38, stuart wrote:
> Received and e-mail today regarding the unexpected crashing of this 
> page *still*
> http://www.weddingphotography.com.au/prices/index.htm
> 


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*



Re: [WSG] big trouble...still!

2004-01-14 Thread stuart
At 14:58 +1100 15/1/04, Peter Ottery wrote:
 >> Can someone please check again for me?

yep, its good to go,
it did crash my IE6 on Win2k before, but all is fine now.
pete
Pete, Chris, Gary, thanks so much, it is probably as I originally 
suspected a cache issue, thanks again for taking the time to look.
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*