Re: [WSG] Rave or Valid point

[Justin French]

On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 04:03  PM, Taco Fleur wrote:

Agreed, a lot of users are not dumb, so they also understand that its 
a button even when on mouseover the cursor turns into a hand|pointer, 
so it would be more wise (IMHO) to think about that % that is not so 
familiar with the web.
They will be familiar with the OS before they are familiar with the 
web.  Browser and OS default buttons LOOK like buttons, and behave 
(more or less) the same across all applications.  This is called 
familiarity.  Familiarity is a very strong part of user experience.

In your own oppinion, do you think a new internet user or 
inexperienced user would understand that he can click the button when 
it turns into a hand|pointer or when the cursor does nothing when 
moving over the button?
I believe if the W3 had set this as a recommendation, then it would be 
a good thing, but since they haven't, they have left it up to the 
browser and Operating System manufacturers to decide what happens.

The user becomes familiar with those defaults.  Whether they're better 
or worse defaults in nearly irrelevant, because of basic numbers 
involved.

There are millions or even billions of web pages out there.  Even if 
you, and all your friends, and all their friends all decided to 
implement this cursor, you'd still be in the minority (not even .001% 
of all pages), hence you would be going against:

- what the W3 recommends (or has not recommended)
- what most (if not all) UA's and OS's do by default
- what the user is familiar with
Do you really want to do that???


I have seen people style buttons so that they blend in with the whole 
desing, see http://www.zeldman.com scroll to the bottom, see that 
button, if the cursor changed on mouse-over it would have been much 
clearer that its a clickable object.
To me anyway.
That's all fine, but the point is that this behaviour you want to 
implement (which nobody is stopping from doing) is not the default 
behaviour for most UA's... implementing it means changing the way a 
user's OWN ENVIRONMENT behaves and responds.

Again, do you really want to do that?


Exactamento! A user always has to learn the interface, buttons can 
always be different, so what IF the cursor ALWAYS turned into a 
hand|pointer how much quicker will they understand your interface?
Not as quick as leaving the button alone and living with the default 
styling and behaviour that they KNOW and LOVE and TRUST.

Let's look at it from the other angle.  A hand|pointer is what people 
rely on for links -- it says so in the W3 specs as well.  Since 
designers though it'd be cool to remove underlines from links, and 
change the colour of them (both of which I'm guilty of too) THIS IS THE 
ONLY VISUAL CUE that this is a link to another page/resource.

Buttons are not links.  In fact, clicking on quite a lot of buttons 
will/may produce no new page at all (think about any client-side JS 
action, including form validation).

Your argument may be to only change the button to a pointer on all 
buttons which WILL result in a new page, but then that's adding more 
and more confusion.

No matter what your argument, I'll more than likely come back with this:

The user should have to learn as little as possible, and should have as 
much consistency and familiarity as possible.  If the W3, Microsoft, 
Apple or even Mozilla decide that all buttons should have pointer 
icons, I'll be fine with it -- because the user of that browser/OS will 
become familiar with it very quick, and it will become their standard 
too.

If one designer (or even a bunch of them) choose to implement it on 
their own, I think it's stupid, because it changes the behaviour of the 
interface.

Justin French

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RE: [WSG] OT: damn I feel old

[Miles Tillinger]

Hi Gary,

Actually that would've been a much better way to ask the question without actually 
asking an OT subject...

e.g. "Please check out this CSS layout at http://blah.com, and while ur there why not 
submit your age..."

So much for my creative thinking!

MT.

-Original Message-
From: Gary Menzel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 3:53 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] OT: damn I feel old



> p.s. if you don't want to post your age on the list, feel free to email 
me direct if you really want to be part of my little survey...

Write a website app for it ;)

Gary Menzel
Web Development Manager
IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited
Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000
PH: 07 333 44 828  FX:  07 3834 0828



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RE: [WSG] CSS Filter (Alpha Opacity) on MZ/NS

[James Silva]

Hi Andrew,

Those CSS "filters" are proprietary Internet Explorer. They are not part of
any W3C CSS specification. Therefore it's highly unlikely you will EVER see
support for them in any other browser.

Read more about them here:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/workshop/author/filter/fi
lters.asp

As a general rule, you should avoid them where possible (my opinion). You
can usually achieve the same effect by re-working your html/css layout.

cheers,

James Silva
Web Production
Gruden Pty Ltd

Tel:   +61 02 9956 6388
Fax:   +61 02 9956 8433
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web:   http://www.gruden.com


-Original Message-
From: Andrew Cheong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 3:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] CSS Filter (Alpha Opacity) on MZ/NS


Why does the CSS filter for alpha opacity not work in Mozilla (1.4, 1.5,
1.6)?  Look at http://www.xdemi.com/music/main.php?s=fun&p=links on I.E. -
notice the background of the "front window" is transparent.  In Mozilla and
Netscape, it does not do this...

I am an amateur designer  - guess I never introduced myself here, but I'm
glad to be here.  I've only recently turned 16 years old, but I'm very
interested in web design and even more in learning.  I am very meticulous
and support web standards all the way (although I have given up trying to
conform with WAI standards haha)

Anyway, I hope someone will be able to inform me of what stupid mistake I am
making that does not allow this filter to work.

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Re: [WSG] OT: damn I feel old

[Gary Menzel]

> p.s. if you don't want to post your age on the list, feel free to email
me direct if you really want to be part of my little survey...

Write a website app for it ;)

Gary Menzel
Web Development Manager
IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited
Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000
PH: 07 333 44 828  FX:  07 3834 0828



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PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated 
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client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy 
and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but 
accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted 
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employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the 
basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates 
hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein.  Any 
recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit 
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Re: [WSG] CSS Filter (Alpha Opacity) on MZ/NS [Virus checkedAU]

[Mark . Lynch]

This email is to be read subject to the disclaimer below.

Hi Andrew,

The alpha filter is part of a whole horrible proprietary extension to CSS
given to us by microsoft - and even the way they implemented it was not in
keeping with CSS standards.

CSS3 has (or will have) support for the opacity attribute which does the
same thing - and is currently implemented in mozilla (in the correct way
for prorietary extentions) i.e. -moz-opacity: 50%;

When CSS3 becomes a standard you will then mozilla will change this
attribute to opacity and you'll be able to search your code for
-moz-opacity and all will be hunky dory.  However, the IE method will
effectively exlude the use of an filter attribute in the CSS standards as
if it (or something like it) is ever implemented then it may not work the
same way as IE has implemented it.


Regards,
Mark Lynch
Development Manager - Business Innovation Online
Ernst & Young - Australia
http://www.eyware.com/
http://www.eyonline.com/
Direct: +612 9248 4038
Fax: +612 9248 4073
Mobile: +61 421 050 695


   

   "Andrew Cheong" 

   <[EMAIL PROTECTED] To:  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
   
   i.com>  cc: 

   Subject: [WSG] CSS Filter (Alpha 
Opacity) on MZ/NS  [Virus checkedAU]   
   19/01/2004  

   03:59 PM

   Please respond  

   to wsg  

   

   




Why does the CSS filter for alpha opacity not work in Mozilla (1.4, 1.5,
1.6)?  Look at http://www.xdemi.com/music/main.php?s=fun&p=links on I.E. -
notice the background of the "front window" is transparent.  In Mozilla and
Netscape, it does not do this...

I am an amateur designer  - guess I never introduced myself here, but I'm
glad to be here.  I've only recently turned 16 years old, but I'm very
interested in web design and even more in learning.  I am very meticulous
and support web standards all the way (although I have given up trying to
conform with WAI standards haha)

Anyway, I hope someone will be able to inform me of what stupid mistake I
am making that does not allow this filter to work.




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RE: [WSG] Rave or Valid point

[Gary Menzel]

> Not proposing anything, just want to hear the opinion of other people on
this matter, see if there is a valid point that will
> make me think otherwise about my opinion ;-)) Just because I have an
opinion doesn't mean its the right one - therefore I like
> to debate it...

If looks like a button in the UI then it should behave like a button in
the UI.

If you have completely restyled it beyond "button recoginition", then do
whatever your interface needs/wants to do.

I think the point that the majority are making is that "don't play with
the widgets the come from the operating system".

My "caveat" on that would be "unless you are just using the underlying
functionality and completely changing it".


Gary Menzel
Web Development Manager
IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited
Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000
PH: 07 333 44 828  FX:  07 3834 0828



If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient 
of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or 
any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, 
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contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated 
with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged 
client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy 
and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but 
accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted 
without the knowledge of ABN AMRO Morgans.  ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and 
employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the 
basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates 
hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein.  Any 
recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit 
the specific requirements of clients.  Assessments of suitability to an individual?s 
portfolio can only be made after an examination of the particular client?s 
investments, financial circumstances and requirements.

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[WSG] OT: damn I feel old

[Miles Tillinger]

There is really no other way of finding this out other than posting to the list, so 
here goes some OT goodness:

A couple of 'youngsters' posted today, one 17 (from Plone.org) and one 16, both must 
be pretty competent web designers from the links they've posted, especially Plone, i 
love what they do!   Made me feel a bit long in the tooth at 27, so I started 
wondering how old you gurus are?  Would be good to get an idea of where we sit 
demographically...

p.s. if you don't want to post your age on the list, feel free to email me direct if 
you really want to be part of my little survey...

Regards,

Miles.

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Re: [WSG] Rave or Valid point

[Justin French]

On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 02:50  PM, Taco Fleur wrote:

Ok, I know what it says, but to me it represents a hand holding a 
mouse and the index finger in the click position.
NO!  That may be what the icon looks like for YOU in YOUR ENVIRONMENT 
but it may look completely different on another OS, or even on a system 
which has a theme installed.

You'll note that the W3 doesn't say:

pointer
The cursor is a pointer that indicates a link, and
should look like a finger holding a mouse.
What happens in 5 years time when the concept of a mouse is forgotten 
in favour of speech, touch screens with pens, or some technology that 
hasn't even been invented yet???


I reckon this icon is chosen so that it creates clarity for a user in 
regards to the object being a clickable object.

I button in that matter to me is also a clickable object.
It's also part of the standard OS interface (in general), so each 
instance of a button should behave like the others again, only my 
opinion.

We don't have to agree :)

Justin

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RE: [WSG] Rave or Valid point

[Taco Fleur]

We don't have to agree at all, but here's my point.  A lot of users are 
*not* dumb.  They realise that links aren't always underlined with blue 
text.  They realise that buttons may not always look like what they're 
used to -- this is good for you.

---

Agreed, a lot of users are not dumb, so they also understand that its a button even 
when on mouseover the cursor turns into a hand|pointer, so it would be more wise 
(IMHO) to think about that % that is not so familiar with the web.

In your own oppinion, do you think a new internet user or inexperienced user would 
understand that he can click the button when it turns into a hand|pointer or when the 
cursor does nothing when moving over the button?

I have seen people style buttons so that they blend in with the whole desing, see 
http://www.zeldman.com scroll to the bottom, see that button, if the cursor changed on 
mouse-over it would have been much clearer that its a clickable object. 
To me anyway.

---

However, the majority (guess only) of webpages the user visits are 
styled with default buttons.  Even if only 25% of sites are using 
default buttons, it's still a SIGNIFICANT NUMBER more sites that your 
ONE INTERFACE which is different.

---

Not sure what your saying here?

---

So they visit your site, with buttons that are styled differently -- no 
matter how insignificant the task appears, the user still has to 
*learn* your interface (and *remember* it) -- which is a task my 
websites will not (generally) ask them to do too much of.

---

Exactamento! A user always has to learn the interface, buttons can always be 
different, so what IF the cursor ALWAYS turned into a hand|pointer how much quicker 
will they understand your interface?

---

You seem to be proposing a 'developer recommendation' (to be taken up 
by some developers), whereas I'd much rather follow a 'w3 
recommendation' (which all standards compliant browsers and developers 
will follow).

---

Not proposing anything, just want to hear the opinion of other people on this matter, 
see if there is a valid point that will make me think otherwise about my opinion ;-)) 
Just because I have an opinion doesn't mean its the right one - therefore I like to 
debate it...

---


Sorry for the long post!


Justin French

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[WSG] CSS Filter (Alpha Opacity) on MZ/NS

[Andrew Cheong]

Why does the CSS filter for alpha opacity not work 
in Mozilla (1.4, 1.5, 1.6)?  Look at http://www.xdemi.com/music/main.php?s=fun&p=links on 
I.E. - notice the background of the "front window" is transparent.  In 
Mozilla and Netscape, it does not do this...
 
I am an amateur designer  - guess I never 
introduced myself here, but I'm glad to be here.  I've only recently turned 
16 years old, but I'm very interested in web design and even more in 
learning.  I am very meticulous and support web standards all the way 
(although I have given up trying to conform with WAI standards 
haha)
 
Anyway, I hope someone will be able to inform me of 
what stupid mistake I am making that does not allow this filter to 
work.

Re: [WSG] Rave or Valid point

[Justin French]

On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 02:21  PM, Taco Fleur wrote:

Any more ideas on this matter from other people?

What your saying makes sense in a way - but I reckon it is not a valid 
argument not to classify the button as a clickable object and make 
this visible.
I didn't say it wasn't clickable.  I just said it should behave like 
other buttons that the user is used to interacting with.  As has been 
pointed out by other posters, main application menus in your OS are 
probably not marked with a pointer -- in fact, none of the icons on my 
OS X or XP Pro desktops have a 'finger' style pointer at all -- they 
all use an arrow.


If I understand you correctly you are saying we should not touch the 
design of a button because it could confuse the user, that would mean 
every website would have GREY buttons.
No, you'd end up with lots of DEFAULT buttons, not specifically GREY 
ones.  Safari and Camino's buttons are always styled by Aqua (OS X 
plastic buttons), ignoring whatever author styles you provide.

Windows XP's default styling of form buttons isn't quite as drastic, 
but on mouseover, they do get shaded with a yellow glow on the edges 
(at least on my set-up).


I personally think you can style the buttons as much as you like, as 
long as they are CONSISTENT throughout your site.
We don't have to agree at all, but here's my point.  A lot of users are 
*not* dumb.  They realise that links aren't always underlined with blue 
text.  They realise that buttons may not always look like what they're 
used to -- this is good for you.

However, the majority (guess only) of webpages the user visits are 
styled with default buttons.  Even if only 25% of sites are using 
default buttons, it's still a SIGNIFICANT NUMBER more sites that your 
ONE INTERFACE which is different.

So they visit your site, with buttons that are styled differently -- no 
matter how insignificant the task appears, the user still has to 
*learn* your interface (and *remember* it) -- which is a task my 
websites will not (generally) ask them to do too much of.

I *do* have exceptions to the rule though.  For example, it might make 
sense for a "delete" button to be red in a CMS -- but I'd always opt 
for the most minimalist styling possible (eg JUST the background or 
text color) so that the user has as much familiarity as possible.  I 
still wouldn't style the pointer.


I personally hate the fact these widgets are styled by the OS, it's 
the Internet not the OS we are working with! - there should be a 
standard style defined not by the OS but by all the browsers IMHO.. 
;-))
I semi-agree here.  Safari is breaking away from standards by not 
providing ways to style their buttons.  However, your original post was 
about changing the pointer on a button away from the original action as 
specified by the browsers defaults, or even the OS's defaults.

By doing so, you are decreasing the familiarity of the button to the 
user in THIER environment.

You seem to be proposing a 'developer recommendation' (to be taken up 
by some developers), whereas I'd much rather follow a 'w3 
recommendation' (which all standards compliant browsers and developers 
will follow).

Sorry for the long post!

Justin French

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Re: [WSG] Rave or Valid point

[Nick Lo]

If I understand you correctly you are saying we should not touch the 
design of a button because it could confuse the user, that would mean 
every website would have GREY buttons.
I personally think you can style the buttons as much as you like, as 
long as they are CONSISTENT throughout your site.
I think the point being indicated to the user in using the default 
button is that this is a button that operates like any other button on 
their OS. On Mac OS X for example default buttons are a recognisable 
blue as are other form elements therefore a user (and we mustn't forget 
that many users do not distinguish the actions of a web page in a 
browser from those in any other application on their OS) has an 
expectation of it's functionality. Note that functionality includes all 
the states of that element as well, such as on focus, on click, etc.

One of the problems I find with "designed" buttons is they tend to be 
biased towards the OS the developer knows. For example seeing XP like 
buttons on a page viewed in OS X is not intuitive or particularly 
attractive. The main problem is that to change a button and maintain 
consistency you need to change the styling of other elements, such as a 
drop-down, as well.

There are of course good reasons for either solution and it's true that 
the main importance is consistency. The question is what is 
"consistent" for an average user: the look of the buttons on a single 
site v's other sites v's the ones on their OS? Also, not to be 
disregarded; who is the end user of your site, savvy or non-savvy, and 
how much does this allow you to play around with their computer using 
comfort zone.

Nick

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RE: [WSG] Rave or Valid point

[Mark Stanton]

> Ok, I know what it says, but to me it represents a hand holding a
> mouse and the index finger in the click position.
> I reckon this icon is chosen so that it creates clarity for a
> user in regards to the object being a clickable object.
>
> I button in that matter to me is also a clickable object.

That's what I meant before - the concept of "clickable" is represented by an
arrow in windows NOT a hand. Mouse over anything on your screen (outside the
browser) that is clickable & you will get an arrow cursor - not a hand.

I'm not saying I disagree with you - if I ran the world every clickable item
would have a hand cursor, parking attendants would have to walk around in
clown suits, ciggie butts would evaporate when you finish your smoke and
well we probably should not go too far down this path. But you get what
I mean. In the real world arrow (windows) hand does not mean
clickable.


Cheers

Mark


--
Mark Stanton
Technical Director
Gruden Pty Ltd
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201
Fax: 9956 8433
http://www.gruden.com

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RE: [WSG] Rave or Valid point

[Taco Fleur]

Title: Rave or Valid point



If I 
look at it from a usability perspective then we should not assume that people 
know that - that is really the whole point i'm trying to 
make.
 
PS: I 
hope this topic is not considered OFF-TOPIC?
 
 

  -Original Message-From: Andrew Cheong 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 19 January 2004 1:55 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] Rave 
  or Valid point
  Well, what you're saying is true, but the buttons 
  are obviously clickable.  People know that.  As opposed to text 
  links, where people might not know they are clickable until the cursor 
  changes.  I guess you do have a point.
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Taco 
Fleur 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 8:20 
PM
Subject: [WSG] Rave or Valid 
point

What do you reckon, a Rave or Valid point? 

http://www.tacofleur.com/index/blog/archive/2004/01/?141800 

Tell me and I will forgetShow me and I will 
rememberTeach me and I will learn 

Re: [WSG] Rave or Valid point

[Andrew Cheong]

Title: Rave or Valid point



Well, what you're saying is true, but the buttons 
are obviously clickable.  People know that.  As opposed to text links, 
where people might not know they are clickable until the cursor changes.  I 
guess you do have a point.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Taco 
  Fleur 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 8:20 
  PM
  Subject: [WSG] Rave or Valid point
  
  What do you reckon, a Rave or Valid point? 
  
  http://www.tacofleur.com/index/blog/archive/2004/01/?141800 
  
  Tell me and I will forgetShow me and I will 
  rememberTeach me and I will learn 

Re: [WSG] bug check - does it break?

[Andrew Cheong]

Works fine in Mozilla 1.5 and IE6 on Windows 
XP.
Nice layout.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Ben Webster 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 7:14 
  PM
  Subject: [WSG] bug check - does it 
  break?
  
  Hey there crew,
   
  just finished marking up the templates for a new site we're 
  building here at werk. At the moment it validates a-ok - but I was wondering 
  if you guys could run your keen eyes over it to see if there are any 
  bugs.
   
  I've tested the markup in a few browsers - but haven't been 
  able to test yet on Win95, 98, 2000, IE5 or Mac OS 8+9.
   
  http://conversantstudios.com.au/apa/
  http://www.conversantstudios.com.au/apa/index_02.html
  http://www.conversantstudios.com.au/apa/index_05.html
   
  Let me know what you think,
  Benvolio

RE: [WSG] Rave or Valid point

[Taco Fleur]

Ok, I know what it says, but to me it represents a hand holding a mouse and the index 
finger in the click position.
I reckon this icon is chosen so that it creates clarity for a user in regards to the 
object being a clickable object.

I button in that matter to me is also a clickable object.

But as I said, I could completely mis the point as I often do ;-)

-Original Message-
From: Mark Stanton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 19 January 2004 1:35 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Rave or Valid point



> What do reckon it does represent then? The pointer that is.

>From the spec (http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/ui.html#cursor-props):

pointer
The cursor is a pointer that indicates a link.


Cheers

Mark


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Technical Director 
Gruden Pty Ltd 
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Mob: 0410 458 201 
Fax: 9956 8433 
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RE: [WSG] Rave or Valid point

[Mark Stanton]

> What do reckon it does represent then? The pointer that is.

>From the spec (http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/ui.html#cursor-props):

pointer
The cursor is a pointer that indicates a link.


Cheers

Mark


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Technical Director 
Gruden Pty Ltd 
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201 
Fax: 9956 8433 
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Re: [WSG] Rave or Valid point

[Justin French]

On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 02:08  PM, Chris Blown wrote:

Yes, I get the same with Firebird under Linux, though gtk1/2 support is
much better than it once was.
Is Camino still in development? Its uses native widgets, doesn't it?
Yes it does, but I've heard there's a hurdle with Panther (wouldn't 
know for sure, because I'm still on Jaguar).

It's been at 0.7 for a while now (March 6th 2003), but there's a news 
post dated Nov 4th which hints that there's still progress.

Justin French

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RE: [WSG] Rave or Valid point

[Taco Fleur]

I think you are looking for cursor:pointer (hand does not exist) -
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/ui.html#cursor-props



You are correct, hand is a windows thingy.
I will adjust my text accordingly.



Also I disagree with the idea that hand == clickable. Mouse over your file
menu (in windows) or any other button menu item for that matter & you get
the arrow not the hand.



What do reckon it does represent then? The pointer that is.



I think defaults are generally the better option in this case, however I
will use pointer when I have a onclick event on something.

Cheers

Mark


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Technical Director
Gruden Pty Ltd
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201
Fax: 9956 8433
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RE: [WSG] Rave or Valid point

[Taco Fleur]

Form widgets come from the user's OS (Operating System) or UA (User 
Agent/Browser), and (IMHO) should behave in a manner to which the user 
is accustomed.  Adding a cursor hand to the button may seem like you're 
helping the user by adding a visual cue, but you may in fact be 
confusing the user, and degrading the user experience.

--

Any more ideas on this matter from other people?

What your saying makes sense in a way - but I reckon it is not a valid argument not to 
classify the button as a clickable object and make this visible.

If I understand you correctly you are saying we should not touch the design of a 
button because it could confuse the user, that would mean every website would have 
GREY buttons. 
I personally think you can style the buttons as much as you like, as long as they are 
CONSISTENT throughout your site.

--

It's for this very same reason that I try not to style form elements 
much beyond their default stylings as supplied by the OS/UA.

It's also for this very same reason that I dislike what Mozilla does 
with form widgets, which (at least on Mac OS 9 & OS X) differ 
dramatically from the rest of the OS.

--

I personally hate the fact these widgets are styled by the OS, it's the Internet not 
the OS we are working with! - there should be a standard style defined not by the OS 
but by all the browsers IMHO.. ;-))

More feedback welcome..

--

The only time I'd use "cursor: hand;" is if the object's action was 
implemented with a JS onlick='' event, rather than a ... 
tag.  But I can't see this happening too often, given that non-JS users 
would be disadvantaged.

Extensive user testing would reveal the true answers though.


Justin French

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RE: [WSG] Rave or Valid point

[Mark Stanton]

I think you are looking for cursor:pointer (hand does not exist) -
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/ui.html#cursor-props

Also I disagree with the idea that hand == clickable. Mouse over your file
menu (in windows) or any other button menu item for that matter & you get
the arrow not the hand.

I think defaults are generally the better option in this case, however I
will use pointer when I have a onclick event on something.

Cheers

Mark


--
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Technical Director
Gruden Pty Ltd
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201
Fax: 9956 8433
http://www.gruden.com

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Re: [WSG] Rave or Valid point

[Chris Blown]

Yes, I get the same with Firebird under Linux, though gtk1/2 support is
much better than it once was. 
Is Camino still in development? Its uses native widgets, doesn't it?

ChrisB

> It's also for this very same reason that I dislike what Mozilla does 
> with form widgets, which (at least on Mac OS 9 & OS X) differ 
> dramatically from the rest of the OS.


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Re: [WSG] Rave or Valid point

[Justin French]

On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 12:20  PM, Taco Fleur wrote:

What do you reckon, a Rave or Valid point?

http://www.tacofleur.com/index/blog/archive/2004/01/?141800
My answer (also posted as a blog comment):

Form widgets come from the user's OS (Operating System) or UA (User 
Agent/Browser), and (IMHO) should behave in a manner to which the user 
is accustomed.  Adding a cursor hand to the button may seem like you're 
helping the user by adding a visual cue, but you may in fact be 
confusing the user, and degrading the user experience.

It's for this very same reason that I try not to style form elements 
much beyond their default stylings as supplied by the OS/UA.

It's also for this very same reason that I dislike what Mozilla does 
with form widgets, which (at least on Mac OS 9 & OS X) differ 
dramatically from the rest of the OS.

The only time I'd use "cursor: hand;" is if the object's action was 
implemented with a JS onlick='' event, rather than a ... 
tag.  But I can't see this happening too often, given that non-JS users 
would be disadvantaged.

Extensive user testing would reveal the true answers though.

Justin French

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[WSG] Rave or Valid point

[Taco Fleur]

Title: Rave or Valid point






What do you reckon, a Rave or Valid point?


http://www.tacofleur.com/index/blog/archive/2004/01/?141800



Tell me and I will forget
Show me and I will remember
Teach me and I will learn

Re: [WSG] bug check - does it break?

[Justin French]

On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 11:14  AM, Ben Webster wrote:

I've tested the markup in a few browsers - but haven't been able to 
test yet on Win95, 98, 2000, IE5 or Mac OS 8+9.
 
http://conversantstudios.com.au/apa/
http://www.conversantstudios.com.au/apa/index_02.html
http://www.conversantstudios.com.au/apa/index_05.html
I have only viewed on Safari (which is no help to you), but I just 
wanted to say these look great -- classy stuff :)

Let us know when the whole site launches!

Justin French

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Re: [WSG] bug check - does it break?

[Bradley Wright]

Ben,
 
After a preliminary run-through on IE 5.0 and IE 
5.5, there are a few issues:
 
Issues on both browsers:
*    The page is not fixed-width 
in either of them. It's left-aligned and seems to continue across the page 
(example: the background green-colour behind the photo on the login page goes 
the width of the page)
*    The box-model is slightly 
askew, as it seems like the lines/borders don't match up on all the pages (could 
be related to the elastic rendering)
 
On IE 5.0 only:
*    The navigation doesn't appear 
at all.
 
Didn't really get time to get stuck in and delve 
through your code, sorry!
 
Brad
 
PS: If you want screenshots contact me directly 
at [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Ben Webster 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 11:14 
  AM
  Subject: [WSG] bug check - does it 
  break?
  
  Hey there crew,
   
  just finished marking up the templates for a new site we're 
  building here at werk. At the moment it validates a-ok - but I was wondering 
  if you guys could run your keen eyes over it to see if there are any 
  bugs.
   
  I've tested the markup in a few browsers - but haven't been 
  able to test yet on Win95, 98, 2000, IE5 or Mac OS 8+9.
   
  http://conversantstudios.com.au/apa/
  http://www.conversantstudios.com.au/apa/index_02.html
  http://www.conversantstudios.com.au/apa/index_05.html
   
  Let me know what you think,
  Benvolio

RE: [WSG] bug check - does it break?

[Mark Stanton]

Looks good Ben. One thing you might want to add as icing on the cake is a
table sorter for tha table in on the last page.

Check out - http://www.brainjar.com/dhtml/tablesort/ - I came across this a
while ago, its all client side js stuff, but it works pretty well works in
IE & Moz and requires conly a failry small amount of client inline
javascript.

There's an example of the finished product at
http://www.brainjar.com/dhtml/tablesort/demo.html


Cheers

Mark


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Mark Stanton
Technical Director
Gruden Pty Ltd
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201
Fax: 9956 8433
http://www.gruden.com

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RE: [WSG] bug check - does it break?

[info]

Ben,

Seem to be working fine on win2000 IE 5.5 - nice work.


 Original Message 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] bug check - does it break?
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 11:14:11 +1100

>Hey there crew,
>
>just finished marking up the templates for a new site we're building
>here at werk. At the moment it validates a-ok - but I was wondering
>if you guys could run your keen eyes over it to see if there are any
>bugs.
>
>I've tested the markup in a few browsers - but haven't been able to
>test yet on Win95, 98, 2000, IE5 or Mac OS 8+9.
>
>http://conversantstudios.com.au/apa/
>http://www.conversantstudios.com.au/apa/index_02.html
>http://www.conversantstudios.com.au/apa/index_05.html
>
>Let me know what you think,
>Benvolio


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Re: [WSG] bug check - does it break?

[Universal Head]

Title: Re: [WSG] bug check - does it
break?


Yep - spelling mistake in the 
Peter

just finished marking up
the templates for a new site we're building here at werk. At the
moment it validates a-ok - but I was wondering if you guys could run
your keen eyes over it to see if there are any
bugs.

-- 



peter gifford

universal head 
design that works

visit  7/43 bridge road
    stanmore nsw
2048
   australia
call   (+612) 9517 1466
fax (+612) 9565 4747
email   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
site 
www.universalhead.com

[WSG] bug check - does it break?

[Ben Webster]

Hey there crew,
 
just finished marking up the templates for a new site we're 
building here at werk. At the moment it validates a-ok - but I was wondering if 
you guys could run your keen eyes over it to see if there are any 
bugs.
 
I've tested the markup in a few browsers - but haven't been 
able to test yet on Win95, 98, 2000, IE5 or Mac OS 8+9.
 
http://conversantstudios.com.au/apa/
http://www.conversantstudios.com.au/apa/index_02.html
http://www.conversantstudios.com.au/apa/index_05.html
 
Let me know what you think,
Benvolio

[WSG] XML 1.1 critique

[James Gollan]

Here a fairly scathing article on the
drawbacks of XML1.1, starting out with some rules:

1. 
Don't use it.

2. 
(For experts only) If you speak
Mongolian, Yi, Cambodian, Amharic, Dhivehi, Burmese, or a very few other
languages and you want to write your markup (not your text but your markup) in
these languages, you can set the version attribute of the XML declaration to 1.1. Otherwise, refer
to rule 1. 

http://www.informit.com/content/index.asp?product_id=%7BDA0BF1A4-D90E-4C74-AFDC-9DEBE1C8B517%7D&011804

 

 

Re: [WSG] Russ' point from last night's meeting

[James Ellis]

Bet you they are still running Mosaic... :D

It's available at browsers.evolt.org

Cheers
James
Chris Blown wrote:

Until late last year, the government department we had dealings with
used everything from NS4 and IE5 to some guy in the corner cubicle using
Mosaic on 95. Thankfully they upgrade the entire department to WinXP
pro.
Chris

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Re: [WSG] Russ' point from last night's meeting

[Chris Blown]

Until late last year, the government department we had dealings with
used everything from NS4 and IE5 to some guy in the corner cubicle using
Mosaic on 95. Thankfully they upgrade the entire department to WinXP
pro.

ChrisB
 
On Sat, 2004-01-17 at 01:51, Vaska.WSG wrote:
> That's very interesting - I wasn't aware of that.  I've worked with a 
> few large governmental organizations in the past and the default was 
> always Explorer.  Of course, that was Seattle and Redmond was only 20 
> minutes away...
> 
> And CSS wasn't generally used for as much back then either...the need 
> for as many hacks didn't exist.
> 
> v
> 
> 
> On 16 Jan 2004, at 15:14, Peter Firminger wrote:
> 
> In some Government organisations, Netscape 4 is still used as the 
> default
> browser generally to the use of the Netscape email client and because 
> they
> paid a site licence for corporate use (which is why Netscape had to 
> bring
> out an update to 4.7? last year). If one of these organisations is your
> client, then there is a very good reason to tweak for it.
> 
> Of course you urge them to change the policy, but sysadmins (especially
> government ones) are not always fast on technology change.
> 
> P
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Vaska.WSG [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 1:05 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: [WSG] Russ' point from last night's meeting
> >
> >
> > Do people really code/tweak for NS4?  My netscape traffic generally
> > ranges less than 3% and I can only imagine that a very small chunk of
> > that is actually NS4.  Am I missing something?
> >
> > v
> >
> >
> > On 16 Jan 2004, at 11:10, James Ellis wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi all
> >
> > For those who didn't make it, Russ in his presentation made a really
> > good point about cross browser implementation
> >
> > Basically we can tweak to 6.7 different browsers but are the
> > people who
> > view our sites going to do the same? Provided the content is
> > structured
> > to be readable for our IE5 and NS4 viewers (for instance) out there,
> > they might just say "hey that looks all right...". They may
> > even label
> > something "normal" that we call broken.
> >
> > It certainly is a good point to remember when we get stuck in the CSS
> > tweak-to-death mindset.
> >
> > Cheers
> > James
> >
> > *
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Re: [WSG] Maestro site : nearly xhtml

[Michael Zeltner]

James Ellis wrote:
I know this may have been said before, but this list is too cool.
how do you mean?

Michael, wikis are always going to be trouble - just because it is a 
wiki, if you know what I mean.
yes i do, i don't like wikis but *sometimes* they can be useful.

I think it'd be great if one of the plone group could present something 
to WSG about how they put plone together with the focus you mention below.
you mean make a presentation on one of the meetings? we're already 
working on documentation and presentations aswell as on examples (like 
maestro). we hope to finish all that soon. like the 2.0 release ;)

Cheers
James
regards, michael
--
niij 
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