[WSG] list-style-types

[Universal Head]

Quick question: I have a square as a list-style-type, but it's 
sitting on the baseline of the text. Is there a way to get it to sit 
in the middle of the x-height of the text?

Thanks,
Peter
--
peter gifford

universal head
design that works
visit   7/43 bridge road
stanmore nsw 2048
australia
call(+612) 9517 1466
fax (+612) 9565 4747
email   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sitewww.universalhead.com
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Re: [WSG] list-style-types

[Hugh Todd]

Pete,

I have a square as a list-style-type, but it's sitting on the baseline 
of the text. Is there a way to get it to sit in the middle of the 
x-height of the text?
Not as far as I'm aware, but if you make a graphic bullet you can 
position it as follows:

#topbanner ul
{
list-style-type: none;
}
#topbanner li {
font-size: 1em;
background: url(images/top_back_arrow.gif) no-repeat 0 0.3em;
padding-left: 1.2em;
 }
If you were using a link, you could put the image into the "a" code, 
but include the background image with it. This would allow you to 
change the colour of both the square and the background, both for their 
initial and :hover states.

-Hugh Todd

(Basis for this code found on stopdesign.com)

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Re: [WSG] list-style-types

[russ weakley]

Peter,

The problem is that you are dealing with browsers individual interpretation
of how to render lists - in particular list bullets. Each browser decides
how they will render lists via their default style sheet (based on something
like this - http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/sample.html). Unfortunately, they
all interpret lists and list bullets in slightly different ways.

If you try to fix the square, it may look good in one browser but then play
up in another browser. As I see it, you have two options:

1. Hippy option
Embrace the web and accept that it isn't print. Then you can live with
slight differences. After all, you may have users who come to your site
using hand held devices, screen reads, text-only browsers, fridges, and a
huge variety of operating systems and browsers. It is impossible to make all
of them conform to your exact layout - as some of them do not even see the
layout at all.

OR

2. Control freak option
Get rid of the default bullets and apply your own bullets using image
backgrounds. The advantage is that you make the bullet of your own choice,
and you can position it EXACTLY where you want it.

A full step by step tutorial is here:
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listutorial/introduction.htm

:)
Russ


> 
> Quick question: I have a square as a list-style-type, but it's
> sitting on the baseline of the text. Is there a way to get it to sit
> in the middle of the x-height of the text?
> 
> Thanks,
> Peter

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Re: [WSG] list-style-types

[James Ellis]

russ weakley wrote:

1. Hippy option
Embrace the web and accept that it isn't print. Then you can live with
slight differences. After all, you may have users who come to your site
using hand held devices, screen reads, text-only browsers, fridges, and a
huge variety of operating systems and browsers. 

ahh yes I can see the support ticket of the future.
"Hi I'm using Fridge Explorer 9 - your site doesn't work when I store my 
leftover Thai Chicken in the crisper. Please fix."

Seriously, though,  Rusty Nails (hehehe) is right - the UA will 
interpret the list widgets differently - most browser users probably 
won't notice anything amiss unless they view your site in 8 browsers - 
it's all pretty relative. If you are building to a grid then you may 
want to user the images option. Of course, turning off images will mean 
the bullets are lost.

Just as an idea - would applying some position : relative tweaking to 
the text in the list do any good?

Cheers
James
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Re: [WSG] list-style-types

[russ weakley]

James,
Short answer - no. 

I did a quick test of this before my original reply. You can apply padding
or relative positioning to the  state but different browsers do
different things. Some move the text and not the bullet, while others move
the bullet and text. So, it would be hard to tweak the contents up or down
to suit an html based bullet. Again, the issue is browser differences here.

Another option would be to warp the content within the list items in spans
and style these, but to me that is as bad as using font tags! Heaps of
manual coding for a tiny variation on square position - yucko!

A background image fixes the issue on the spot with no additional markup and
no polluting of code.

Russ


> Just as an idea - would applying some position : relative tweaking to
> the text in the list do any good?

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Re: [WSG] list-style-types

[Cameron Adams]

I just tried setting "vertical-align: middle" on an
li.

In IE6 it moves it moves the bullet more centrally, in
Mozilla and Opera it does nothing, but they're pretty
central anyway.

You can try all sorts of different values: baseline,
text-top, etc.

--
Cameron

W: www.themaninblue.com

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
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Re: [WSG] Floats of the Fluid and Fixed kind

[Tonico Strasser]

Chris Blown wrote:

Hey,

After reading Dave Shea's "Friday Challenge" and all the various
solutions posted in response, I decided to have a play with this idea
too. Ryan Brill's negative margin method works well across browsers, and
I used this method while experimenting.
/* Triple checked link ;) */
http://www.hinterlands.com.au/testing/floats.html
I had an attempt at getting 100% height working on this one, but gave
up, since using a fixed, fluid div combination, horizontally and
vertically seems to be more trouble than its worth. Especially using
negative margins ( seems slightly hack worthy ) Not to mention the
problem of content overflowing the content div when its larger than the
page. 

Not sure how you get around this without using min-height set to 100%
but only Opera and Mozilla seem to care here. Anyway my obsession with
100% height still remains ;)
Hello Chris,

which element should get 100% height? A column relative to another 
column or the whole layout relative to the viewport?

Tonico

--
Tonico Strasser ?:-)
http://Tonico.FreeZope.org
Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de
Check out http://www.WebProducer.at
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[WSG] Definition lists - misused or misunderstood

[russ weakley]

Apologies to those who are over the definition list debate...

Definition lists - misused or misunderstood?
"What are definition lists? When are they appropriate? And how to style them
to look like tables, image galleries, calendar of events and more"
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/index.cfm

Samples include:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/dl-border-around.htm
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/dl-table-display.htm
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/dl-float-right.htm
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/dl-image-gallery.htm
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/dl-event.htm

Thanks
Russ

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[WSG] Image Gallery alternative

[Robert Moser II]

I was searching the web for a good way to do a thumbnail gallery and 
came across the discussion on this list between Russ Weakley and Justin 
French.  I came up with this alternative to the ways that they wrote 
about (Russ - each image in its own DL, Justing - each image in its own 
DIV).

What I did was to make it a plain UL with the gallery class applied to 
the UL, and the image and description being in a LI, which is floated.

It looks to me like less markup in the HTML portion, but a little more 
in the CSS.

Here's the code (using the same content as used by them):


body
{
margin: 20px;
padding: 0;
font: 90% arial, sans-serif;
background-color: #fff;
}

[WSG] CSS file size question

[Martin Chapman]

Hi All

Been enjoying the conversations since joining a week ago, thanks!

I am currently converting a clients' site (from tables) into a 
validated site (well, testing and putting it to them... they asked, but 
they don't know the price yet! :oO )

The main sections (design) of the site will be served as ASP.NET 
includes (similar to PHP includes etc. to act as a template system). 
However, most of the sites' content resides in nice rounded panels 
(like navigation panel menu thing). I've managed to develop these as so 
it's a case of copying the code of an empty one to put one on the page, 
then fill it up with the intended content. However, the content within 
these panels is so varied. This is the sticking point for me (it'll 
take the most time to convert all the content since it's different on 
each page, and was originally done with nested-tables).

Therefore, it's looking like the each page could potentially have its 
own css file. And now to my questions!:

1. Bandwidth/caching etc.-wise, will this be okay to have a separate 
CSS file for each page (highly likely that it'd have a  to the 
main CSS file, then a second  to its individual CSS file)?
2. Would inserting the CSS into the pages  be as effective (we 
are probably talking about 10-15 css declarations per page for the 
individual content)?
3. Or, should I just whack every single bit into one CSS file and link 
every page to it (even though it could become rather big... i.e. 50 
pages x 15 declarations per page, plus all the template declarations 
etc.)?

Thnx in adv. (sorry for the long-winded post... but not much 
opportunity elsewhere to theorise about CSS... except in the pub, but 
the ladies don't like it :o\ )

Kind regards
Martin Chapman
--

Web development, identity and design.

co-ord.com Limited
9 Tynwald Road
West Kirby
Merseyside
CH48 4DA
Tel: +44 (0)151 625 1443
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.co-ord.com

--

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[WSG] Some links for whenever...

[russ weakley]

Andy Budd - some CSS sites:
http://www.andybudd.com/blog/archives/000146.html

Doug Bowman  - the IE factor:
http://www.stopdesign.com/log/2004/01/26/ie_factor.html

Dave Shea - developing in standards browsers before IE:
http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2004/01/27/notes_from_a/#testing

Jeff Croft - Luxury type:
http://jeffcroft.com/blog/archives/000133.php


Thanks
Russ

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Re: [WSG] list-style-types

[Universal Head]

Thankyou for the informative answers to my question on list style 
types! Great stuff. I think I'll try and get my perfectionist 
control-freak side to back off and live and let live when it comes to 
the bullets (otherwise I'll never finish this &^%&^ site!)
Cheers
Peter
--

peter gifford

universal head
design that works
visit   7/43 bridge road
stanmore nsw 2048
australia
call(+612) 9517 1466
fax (+612) 9565 4747
email   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sitewww.universalhead.com
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Re: [WSG] CSS file size question

[Justin French]

On Wednesday, January 28, 2004, at 07:25  AM, Martin Chapman wrote:

Therefore, it's looking like the each page could potentially have its 
own css file. And now to my questions!:

1. Bandwidth/caching etc.-wise, will this be okay to have a separate 
CSS file for each page (highly likely that it'd have a  to the 
main CSS file, then a second  to its individual CSS file)?
2. Would inserting the CSS into the pages  be as effective (we 
are probably talking about 10-15 css declarations per page for the 
individual content)?
3. Or, should I just whack every single bit into one CSS file and link 
every page to it (even though it could become rather big... i.e. 50 
pages x 15 declarations per page, plus all the template declarations 
etc.)?
I think you should have your base CSS file (things common to all 
pages), and then link a separate file for any page-specific 
requirements.  I has this same discussion in a comment on mezzoblue a 
few months back.  CSS files are getting bigger and bigger.  It will get 
to the point where asking the user to download a CSS file for the WHOLE 
SITE when they only want to see one page won't be an option -- things 
will just get too big.

Think about it -- the one page that you'd want to load super-fast is 
the home page (the entry point).  If you have to download every CSS 
declaration for the whole site, then there will be an obvious 
performance hit on the first page, which is the worst scenario.

I'd consider this fine:




The sheets will still get cached, but they won't be asked for until 
such time as they're needed... why download 200 lines of CSS for a 
message board if you're never going to look at it???

Now, I bet you're thinking the screws up your templates, but it doesn't 
have to, since you've got a server-side language like ASP or PHP on 
hand.  For me, I'd have a unique CSS file for each section, and a 
section would be in it's own dir.  So I could determine what dir we're 
in, and programatically search for and include a CSS file of the same 
name.

My example would be in PHP (untested, but you get the idea)


$pathItems = explode('/', $_SERVER['REQUEST_URI']);
$section = $pathItems[1];
$file = 'css/{$section}.css';
if(file_exists($file)) {
  echo "";
}
?>

If you're at /products/foo/bah.html it will look for products.css
If you're at /home/ it will look for home.css
If you're at /about/staff/justin/ it will look for about.css
Hope this inspires you to do something similar to suit your needs.

Justin French

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Re: [WSG] list-style-types

[James Ellis]

Hey...

This is most likely a bug in IE as according to the CSS2 specs 
vertical-align should only apply to inline and table cell elements. If 
IE changes that default then your lists will go back to how they appear 
in the other browsers, most likely.

'vertical-align'
Value: baseline | sub | super | top | text-top | middle | bottom |
text-bottom |  |  | inherit
Initial: baseline
Applies to: inline-level and ’table-cell’ elements
Inherited: no
Percentages: refer to the ’line-height’ of the element itself
Media: visual
’display’
Value: inline | block | list-item | run-in | compact | marker | table |
inline-table | table-row-group | table-header-group |
table-footer-group | table-row | table-column-group |
table-column | table-cell | table-caption | none | inherit
Initial: inline
Applies to: all elements
Inherited: no
Percentages: N/A
Media: all
The values of this property
Cheers
James


Cameron Adams wrote:

I just tried setting "vertical-align: middle" on an
li.
In IE6 it moves it moves the bullet more centrally, in
Mozilla and Opera it does nothing, but they're pretty
central anyway.
You can try all sorts of different values: baseline,
text-top, etc.
--
Cameron
W: www.themaninblue.com

 

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Re: [WSG] Floats of the Fluid and Fixed kind

[Chris Blown]

"whole layout relative to the viewport?"

I guess what I was aiming for was; 

When the content area contains less content than the current users
viewport, the content area will stretch to the fill out the vacant area,
pushing the footer to the base of the browser window. I got this working
no worries. 

When the content area contains more content than the current users
viewport, the content overflows the div and footer, hanging off the
bottom of the page in no mans land, be nice to have the div expand with
the content. I tried various methods with little success. 

I'm missing something simple, just need some time to experiment further.

Regards
Chris Blown

On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 00:00, Tonico Strasser wrote:
> Chris Blown wrote:
> 
> > Hey,
> > 
> > After reading Dave Shea's "Friday Challenge" and all the various
> > solutions posted in response, I decided to have a play with this idea
> > too. Ryan Brill's negative margin method works well across browsers, and
> > I used this method while experimenting.
> > 
> > /* Triple checked link ;) */
> > http://www.hinterlands.com.au/testing/floats.html
> > 
> > I had an attempt at getting 100% height working on this one, but gave
> > up, since using a fixed, fluid div combination, horizontally and
> > vertically seems to be more trouble than its worth. Especially using
> > negative margins ( seems slightly hack worthy ) Not to mention the
> > problem of content overflowing the content div when its larger than the
> > page. 
> > 
> > Not sure how you get around this without using min-height set to 100%
> > but only Opera and Mozilla seem to care here. Anyway my obsession with
> > 100% height still remains ;)
> 
> Hello Chris,
> 
> which element should get 100% height? A column relative to another 
> column or the whole layout relative to the viewport?
> 
> Tonico
> 

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[WSG] Flash Problem & Mac check?

[Veine K Vikberg]

Hello;

Can anyone tell me why this page (below) in Mozilla/PC is displaying as 
intended (lest the border to the left of the drop down menu), with the 
Flash on the right hand side. It is *not* displaying the Flash at all in 
IE6/PC, just tries to load it forever. I have the exact same code in my own 
home page and it displays perfectly.

I have tried a lot of things to make this one work but I am at the end of 
my rope here. I can get it to show up, with all the embed statements that 
Flash would like and with the download link to Flash/Shockwave, but can 
then not validate the code.

As it stands now, the page is valid XHTML Transitional / CSS (and I can't 
make it Strict as it has to have border attribute on the link pictures to 
be looking as intended in NN4.x)

Any thought on or off list would be greatly appreciated.

http://www.mainemaritime.edu/redesign/

  Regards
   ~Veine
Veine K Vikberg
http://www.vikberg.net
Professional Web Guru

Re: [WSG] Flash Problem & Mac check?

[Bradley Wright]

Your Code:

 



Solution:

Note that the OBJECT>DATA attribute: "flash/mma.swf" and the PARAM>VALUE
attribute "mma.swf" are different.
Make them the same (which ever one happens to be the correct path) and it
should work.

Also note that this version of embedding Flash won't stream in IE, which is
bad if the movie is large (not in your case though).


- Original Message - 
From: "Veine K Vikberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 11:14 AM
Subject: [WSG] Flash Problem & Mac check?


> Hello;
>
> Can anyone tell me why this page (below) in Mozilla/PC is displaying as
> intended (lest the border to the left of the drop down menu), with the
> Flash on the right hand side. It is *not* displaying the Flash at all in
> IE6/PC, just tries to load it forever. I have the exact same code in my
own
> home page and it displays perfectly.
>
> I have tried a lot of things to make this one work but I am at the end of
> my rope here. I can get it to show up, with all the embed statements that
> Flash would like and with the download link to Flash/Shockwave, but can
> then not validate the code.
>
> As it stands now, the page is valid XHTML Transitional / CSS (and I can't
> make it Strict as it has to have border attribute on the link pictures to
> be looking as intended in NN4.x)
>
> Any thought on or off list would be greatly appreciated.
>
> http://www.mainemaritime.edu/redesign/
>
>Regards
> ~Veine
>
>
> Veine K Vikberg
> http://www.vikberg.net
> Professional Web Guru
>



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Re: [WSG] Floats of the Fluid and Fixed kind

[Tonico Strasser]

Chris Blown schrieb:
"whole layout relative to the viewport?"

I guess what I was aiming for was; 
Sorry, I don't understand this :/ (still learning english)

When the content area contains less content than the current users
viewport, the content area will stretch to the fill out the vacant area,
pushing the footer to the base of the browser window. I got this working
no worries. 

When the content area contains more content than the current users
viewport, the content overflows the div and footer, hanging off the
bottom of the page in no mans land, be nice to have the div expand with
the content. I tried various methods with little success. 
A few months ago I need to do this for a project. It was one of my first 
pure CSS layouts. It's done with positioning not floats.

The abstract HTML:

 
Content
Footer
CSS:

#min-height {
  width: 3px;
  height: 100%;
  float: right;
  margin-bottom: -112px;
  overflow: hidden;
}
#footer {
  /* ... */
  clear: both;
  height: 112px;
}
You can see it live at
  
  
I works in IE5+ (Win and Mac) Mozilla1+ and Opera7 (in quirksmode).

PPK has written an interesting article about 100% height:
  
Footer Demo:
  
HTH
Tonico
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Re: [WSG] Flash Problem & Mac check?

[James Ellis]

Hi 

I did some work on this a while back:

http://www.webqs.com/experiment.php?id=15
and sort-of-related to
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/1116/
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/1209/

The Flash Satay article by Drew Mclellan (allinthehead.com) at A List
Apart should help as well.

Cheers
James

Bradley Wright wrote:

  Your Code:

 



Solution:

Note that the OBJECT>DATA attribute: "flash/mma.swf" and the PARAM>VALUE
attribute "mma.swf" are different.
Make them the same (which ever one happens to be the correct path) and it
should work.

Also note that this version of embedding Flash won't stream in IE, which is
bad if the movie is large (not in your case though).


- Original Message - 
From: "Veine K Vikberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 11:14 AM
Subject: [WSG] Flash Problem & Mac check?


  
  
Hello;

Can anyone tell me why this page (below) in Mozilla/PC is displaying as
intended (lest the border to the left of the drop down menu), with the
Flash on the right hand side. It is *not* displaying the Flash at all in
IE6/PC, just tries to load it forever. I have the exact same code in my

  
  own
  
  
home page and it displays perfectly.

I have tried a lot of things to make this one work but I am at the end of
my rope here. I can get it to show up, with all the embed statements that
Flash would like and with the download link to Flash/Shockwave, but can
then not validate the code.

As it stands now, the page is valid XHTML Transitional / CSS (and I can't
make it Strict as it has to have border attribute on the link pictures to
be looking as intended in NN4.x)

Any thought on or off list would be greatly appreciated.

http://www.mainemaritime.edu/redesign/

   Regards
~Veine


Veine K Vikberg
http://www.vikberg.net
Professional Web Guru


  
  


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Re: [WSG] Flash Problem & Mac check?

[Veine K Vikberg]

At 11:38 AM 1/28/2004 +1100, you wrote:
Your Code:



DOH! Thanks

Solution:

Note that the OBJECT>DATA attribute: "flash/mma.swf" and the PARAM>VALUE
attribute "mma.swf" are different.
Make them the same (which ever one happens to be the correct path) and it
should work.
Also note that this version of embedding Flash won't stream in IE, which is
bad if the movie is large (not in your case though).
Thanks for that too, I had problems with that once before, I am a newbie at 
flash and most clients wants very little of it, and I will probably have 
more questions about how to make it compliant in the future.

  Anyone with a recent Mac out there that can take a look at it, I have 
the verdict from a iMac OS8.6 IE 5.1, am wondering how badly OSX/Safari is 
mangling it ;o)

Again the url is: http://www.mainemaritime.edu/redesign/index.html

Thanks again Bradley :o)

 Regards
  ~Veine
Veine K Vikberg
http://www.vikberg.net
Professional Web Guru

Re: [WSG] validation... and invalid markup

[scott parsons]

Standards... yay
sure if you belong to this list you gotta support standards or else why 
bother?
But lately I have seen lots of people trying to find ways to validate 
their code when it isn't valid.
For example Veine K Vikberg just posted to this list about a flash 
problem he was having...
The best code for embedding a flash movie ISN'T valid markup, so why do 
people try to hack the mark-up to pieces to validate?
Maybe I am missing something here but I just validate without the flash, 
then insert it.
Likewise recently on a forum I visit someone was asking how to spoof the 
css validator to let through some invalid IE-prop css. I simply asked 
why! I mean if you want to use invalid mark-up then use it but don't 
spend time either spoofing the validators or hacking your mark-up to 
make it pretend to be valid.

Personally I don't understand this desire to validate when using invalid 
code. It is strange, I simply ask why, if they want valid code do they 
use invalid code?

so that is my grump of the day... any comments?

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Re: [WSG] validation... and invalid markup

[James Ellis]

Scott:


scott parsons wrote:

Standards... yay
sure if you belong to this list you gotta support standards or else why
bother?
  

Well, not really. Belonging to a list doesn't mean you agree with
everything on it.
But
lately I have seen lots of people trying to find ways to validate their
code when it isn't valid.
  
For example Veine K Vikberg just posted to this list about a flash
problem he was having...
  
The best code for embedding a flash movie ISN'T valid markup, so why do
people try to hack the mark-up to pieces to validate?
  


The valid code used in the Flash Satay examples is completely ok and
the w3c recommended way to insert an object in a page, it's not a hack
- it's good, valid code - read the HTML4 rec available at w3c. The hack
is the embed tag - Gecko, Opera and KHTML all support 
perfectly well.  The hack is the way ActiveX browsers (i.e IE) use the
object tag. Apparently the object tag used by all other browsers is the
one in the HTML4 rec, the object tag used by IE is a Microsoft tag
implemented prior to the HTML rec.

http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/07/02/dive.html
"Why won't it work? Well, it will work in some browsers. But not in
Internet Explorer. The  element is a good
idea; unfortunately, it came a bit too late in the game. Before
 was officially added to the HTML
specification
in 1997, Microsoft had already introduced its own vendor-specific
element
in Internet Explorer 3.0 as a way of embedding ActiveX controls in web
pages: an element named... .
When  was later standardized,
Microsoft
retrofitted support for it, sort of. Except that, to this day, even the
latest version of Internet Explorer treats all 
elements as ActiveX controls. Which means that if you have your
security
settings on "high" (disabling all ActiveX controls), you won't see any
 elements, even ones that have nothing to do
with ActiveX."
Cheers
James

Personally
I don't understand this desire to validate when using invalid code. It
is strange, I simply ask why, if they want valid code do they use
invalid code?
  
  
so that is my grump of the day... any comments?
  



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Re: [WSG] Floats of the Fluid and Fixed kind

[Chris Blown]

Thanks Tonico

Looks great.

Cheers
Chris Blown

> A few months ago I need to do this for a project. It was one of my first 
> pure CSS layouts. It's done with positioning not floats.
> 
> The abstract HTML:
> 
>  
> Content
> Footer
> 
> CSS:
> 
> #min-height {
>width: 3px;
>height: 100%;
>float: right;
>margin-bottom: -112px;
>overflow: hidden;
> }
> #footer {
>/* ... */
>clear: both;
>height: 112px;
> }
> 
> You can see it live at
>
>
> 
> I works in IE5+ (Win and Mac) Mozilla1+ and Opera7 (in quirksmode).
> 
> PPK has written an interesting article about 100% height:
>
> 
> Footer Demo:
>
> 
> HTH
> Tonico
> 
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> * 
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [WSG] validation... and invalid markup

[Justin French]

On Wednesday, January 28, 2004, at 12:09  PM, scott parsons wrote:

Personally I don't understand this desire to validate when using 
invalid code. It is strange, I simply ask why, if they want valid code 
do they use invalid code?

so that is my grump of the day... any comments?
I agree 100%.  Tricking a CSS validator into validating invalid code is 
just a waste of time, especially since you can't be assured that the 
validator will feel the same in a day/week/year's time.  Either write 
to standards, or don't, eh?

Personally, I use zero hacks, and validate all the way, but then again, 
I'm happy for a few pixels difference between IE and Moz and Safari, 
and I'm prepared to make sacrifices.  If there was a job that had to 
have non-standard mark-up or CSS, I certainly wouldn't bother with 
validation, or attempt to spoof validation just for the sake of a 
(essentially fake) 'valid' button.  I'd get it as good as possible, and 
leave it at that.

Justin French

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Re: [WSG] validation... and invalid markup

[scott parsons]

The valid code used in the Flash Satay examples is completely ok and 
the w3c recommended way to insert an object in a page, it's not a hack 
- it's good, valid code - read the HTML4 rec available at w3c. The 
hack is the embed tag - Gecko, Opera and KHTML all support  
perfectly well.  The hack is the way ActiveX browsers (i.e IE) use the 
object tag. Apparently the object tag used by all other browsers is 
the one in the HTML4 rec, the object tag used by IE is a Microsoft tag 
implemented prior to the HTML rec.
yeah ok, you are probably right... except that flash satay doesn't work 
in IE/win(no streaming), and how about the tasman engine? I thought that 
still required the embed tag, but I could be wrong I don't use the flash 
satay code for flash.
The fact is that the IE implementation of the object tag isn't standard, 
and therefore to use properly for those browsers a non-standard approach 
may be best.

But this isn't really the point I was mostly trying to make, which was 
my lack of understanding of the "must validate even if I still want to 
use invalid code crowd". I consider that the flash satay method falls 
into this arena but totally recognise that you disagree (and may well be 
right).

s
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RE: [WSG] Definition lists - misused or misunderstood

[Mark Stanton]

Nice work again Russ...

http://www.webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2004_01.html#a000285


Cheers

Mark


--
Mark Stanton 
Technical Director 
Gruden Pty Ltd 
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201 
Fax: 9956 8433 
http://www.gruden.com

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RE: [WSG] Definition lists - misused or misunderstood

[Michael Kear]

It's just not fair.  Just when I think I'm getting a grip on this web
development business, along comes Russ with a whole area of markup that I've
never looked at.  Where have I been?  I had no idea there was even such a
thing as definition lists!   There's an admission for you!

I can see dozens of applications for this set of tags in what I do.  -
glossary items,  breakout boxes, sidebars, lots of things.

Thanks Russ!  Now back to studying the W3C.  Sheesh!

Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com


-Original Message-
From: russ weakley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, 28 January 2004 12:19 AM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: [WSG] Definition lists - misused or misunderstood

Apologies to those who are over the definition list debate...

Definition lists - misused or misunderstood?
"What are definition lists? When are they appropriate? And how to style them
to look like tables, image galleries, calendar of events and more"
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/index.cfm

Samples include:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/dl-border-around.htm
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/dl-table-display.htm
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/dl-float-right.htm
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/dl-image-gallery.htm
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/dl-event.htm

Thanks
Russ


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Re: [WSG] Definition lists - misused or misunderstood

[Chris Blown]

Russ.

Nice work.

Last time I saw  was from some old markup output by Adobe Go Live...
/* shudders */

I especially like the image gallery example.

Cheers
Chris

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[WSG] Definition lists -- mid-weekly challenge

[Hugh Todd]

Russ, anyone,

Any thoughts on using dl for the following? I can't seem to make it  
work. (Could this be a mid-weekly challenge?)

Rather than having all of your dl elements stacked above each other,  
(as in your example:  
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/dl-image- 
gallery.htm ) I'd like to sit the img left, with the second dt to its  
right and the dd below that.

I've applied a float: left; to the img and another to the other dt, but  
I want to bring the dd below the dt, and can't find a way to do it.  
I've looked at using position: relative to move the img, but that gets  
a bit dodgy.

Here's what I'd like to achieve, in ASCII art. Hope you get the idea.

SECOND DT HERE
**IMG **DD starts here


I've tried floats, but the dd persists in sitting to the right of the  
second dt.

Perhaps the only solution will be to turn the second (non-img) dt into  
a dd and modify it with a , but then I lose the semantic  
significance of the dt.

-Hugh Todd

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[WSG] New CMS / Framework

[Justin French]

Hi all,

Inspired by the needs, comments and wishes of Dave Shae's "Wanted: CMS" 
post on Mezzoblue 
, I'm taking 
up the challenge, and building the CMS I've always wanted (which it 
looks like Dave and others wanted too).  Off the top of my head, with 
no warranty whatsoever, I'd like it to be distributed under a license 
similar to MT's multi-license for personal/commercial/pro use, or even 
GPL.

More (and less) than a CMS, what I'm aiming at is a framework which 
provides a simple CMS, but more importantly offers a killer API for 
plug-ins and extensions.  I'm 100% convinced that the perfect CMS 
doesn't exist, but I hope that I can build one that meets basic needs, 
with unlimited scope for extensions.

I'm NOT building another blog tool (although there will be a blog 
plug-in), and I'm not building a bloated portal system that can do 
everything and anything (although the plug-in API would allow for it 
all)... what I'm building is a system that answers *my* common 
requirements, and hopefully those of a large number of developers out 
there in the process.

My assumption (and my need) is a system where the developer (me for 
example) sets up the site, creates the content models and templates, 
creates the CSS, hooks in new plug-ins (or even builds a new one), then 
hands it over to content writers and editors to run on a day-by-day 
basis.  As such, my target market isn't really website owners, but 
website developers acting on behalf of website owners.

Naturally the content-adding back-end will need to be usable by regular 
office staff, but the areas that the developers deal with (creating new 
content models and templates) will be quite raw (no need to write a 
template engine when PHP already is one, etc).

It's quite possible I've got this all wrong, and this isn't what other 
people want at all, but that's OK, because I still want it for me and 
my clients.  Even so, I'm keen to get the ball rolling on a wish-list 
of features (keeping in mind that this is supposed to be lightweight, 
allowing as much freedom as possible to develop add-ons) from everyone 
out there.

To start the ball rolling, here are a *few* of mine:

- LAMP based (possibly with a DB abstraction layer)
- page (rather than post) oriented, with regular dir & file hierarchy, 
simple SE friendly URLs, etc
- extensibility through a simple but open plug-in API
- works on a basic install of PHP (no recompiles and external libs)
- different content models (a news post is different to a recipe, blog 
post, tech article, etc etc)

Feel free to keep emails private or public, and if you want to be 
involved in Beta testing etc (and get a freebie in the process), just 
let me know.

Thanks,
Justin French
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Re: [WSG] Definition lists -- mid-weekly challenge

[Cameron Adams]

Can't be bothered trying it, but you could float the
image left, leave the other elements non-floated,
block, with left margins equal to the image width.

--
Cameron

W: www.themaninblue.com

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
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RE: [WSG] New CMS / Framework

[Mark Stanton]

Hey Justin

That's a very big call - best of luck to you. But before you jump in can I
suggest you look at http://farcry.daemon.com.au. Ok its Coldfusion based &
not PHP, but CF will cost you a few thousand dollars & that is a tiny
amount to pay for a product (farcry) of this quality.

This is seriously a mature, powerful product & there is an extremely
active development community behind it. Please do yourself a favour & a
have a long hard look at this even if its just to review what a good CMS
should do.


Cheers

Mark


--
Mark Stanton
Technical Director
Gruden Pty Ltd
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201
Fax: 9956 8433
http://www.gruden.com


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