RE: [WSG] [CSS] IE6 header issue.

[Jeff - Accessibility 1st]

Hi Nick

Try: 

H1 {position: relative;}

This might help; I came up against the same problem in IE6 and found
that this fixed the problem.

Jeff

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nick Lo
Sent: Sunday, 21 March 2004 4:53 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] [CSS] IE6 header issue.

Dear me, little obvious that I've been slogging through this to the 
point of eye twitching...the URL is:

http://www.amcs.org.au

...and thanks again Russ,

Nick

> No objections to any of my templates being used partially or fully. 
> They
> were put online to be used and/or abused as needed  :)
>
> Russ

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RE: [WSG] [CSS] IE6 header issue.

[Jason Turnbull]

> Nick Lo wrote:
> http://www.amcs.org.au
> the header text in IE6 which should appear 
> as white as it does in IE 5.5 down. I

Hi Nick

Try this 'Holly' hack, named after Holly Bergevin

/* Hide from IE5-mac \*/
* html div#header {
height:1%
}
/* End hide from IE5-mac */

All IE versions (PC and Mac) see the style after the * html
As this problem doesn't affect IE mac the comment hack is used.

For some reason applying a height to your header div fixes this problem
in IE, and IE will ignore height declared.

Hi list am a newbie here, invited from the CSS Foundations, I though I
was on too many lists until I came across this one, great too been
invited and am enjoying the friendly and informative discussions.

Regards
Jason Turnbull


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Re: [WSG] [CSS] IE6 header issue.

[Nick Lo]

Dear me, little obvious that I've been slogging through this to the 
point of eye twitching...the URL is:

http://www.amcs.org.au

...and thanks again Russ,

Nick

No objections to any of my templates being used partially or fully. 
They
were put online to be used and/or abused as needed  :)

Russ
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Re: [WSG] [CSS] IE6 header issue.

[russ weakley]

> So a BIG thanks to Russ and I know it's kind of late but if you have
> any objections to the similarities please let me know so we can "rejig".
> 

No objections to any of my templates being used partially or fully. They
were put online to be used and/or abused as needed  :)

Russ

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RE: [WSG] [CSS] IE6 header issue.

[Peter Firminger]

The address is?

P

> Hello all,
>
> Ok this is my first fully CSS based site (still work in
> progress by the
> way) and I first of all want to give credit to Russ's great


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Re: [WSG] [CSS] IE6 header issue.

[James Ellis]

Nick

Do you have a URL?

Cheers
James
Nick Lo wrote:

Hello all,

Ok this is my first fully CSS based site
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Re: [WSG] [CSS] IE6 header issue.

[Neerav]

You forgot the URL

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Nick Lo wrote:

Hello all,

Ok this is my first fully CSS based site (still work in progress by the 
way) and I first of all want to give credit to Russ's great tutorial at:

http://css.maxdesign.com.au/selectutorial/

I'm a little concerned at how closely I ended up to his original however 
the client had actually doodled something almost exactly the same and I 
couldn't really see the point in rejigging for the sake of it. 
Especially as this is a non-profit organisation and one of the 
requirements is that the site should be easily maintainable by 
volunteers. The presence of Russ's tutorials actually stands as a good 
reason to go with something similar. Also, I have to admit that I needed 
to start with something reassuring...ok, I was scared!

So a BIG thanks to Russ and I know it's kind of late but if you have any 
objections to the similarities please let me know so we can "rejig".

I decided this would be a good opportunity to go fully CSS mainly 
because aside from the well discussed benefits it also allows volunteers 
to work on content separately from the presentation elements.

Anyway, I am of course having issues here and there...but my current 
main one is the header text in IE6 which should appear as white as it 
does in IE 5.5 down. I'm on Mac OS X with little access right now to a 
PC (I'm weighing up the best solution there, probably Virtual PC) so I'm 
relying on online captures ( http://www.danvine.com/iecapture/ ) or 
colleagues help.

Anyone with any ideas/comments (I know Opera is having issues with the 
site!)

Thanks,

Nick

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[WSG] [CSS] IE6 header issue.

[Nick Lo]

Hello all,

Ok this is my first fully CSS based site (still work in progress by the 
way) and I first of all want to give credit to Russ's great tutorial at:

http://css.maxdesign.com.au/selectutorial/

I'm a little concerned at how closely I ended up to his original 
however the client had actually doodled something almost exactly the 
same and I couldn't really see the point in rejigging for the sake of 
it. Especially as this is a non-profit organisation and one of the 
requirements is that the site should be easily maintainable by 
volunteers. The presence of Russ's tutorials actually stands as a good 
reason to go with something similar. Also, I have to admit that I 
needed to start with something reassuring...ok, I was scared!

So a BIG thanks to Russ and I know it's kind of late but if you have 
any objections to the similarities please let me know so we can "rejig".

I decided this would be a good opportunity to go fully CSS mainly 
because aside from the well discussed benefits it also allows 
volunteers to work on content separately from the presentation elements.

Anyway, I am of course having issues here and there...but my current 
main one is the header text in IE6 which should appear as white as it 
does in IE 5.5 down. I'm on Mac OS X with little access right now to a 
PC (I'm weighing up the best solution there, probably Virtual PC) so 
I'm relying on online captures ( http://www.danvine.com/iecapture/ ) or 
colleagues help.

Anyone with any ideas/comments (I know Opera is having issues with the 
site!)

Thanks,

Nick

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Re: [WSG] Opera market share

[Hugh Todd]

Justin,

Russ posted a link to a page a while back with links to all the preview 
versions:

http://web-graphics.com/mtarchive/001178.php

-Hugh

Where can I get the Opera 7.5 Beta?  Couldn't see an obvious link on 
the site...
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Re: [WSG] Opera market share

[russ weakley]

Try here:
http://snapshot.opera.com/mac/m750p3.html
Russ

> Where can I get the Opera 7.5 Beta?  Couldn't see an obvious link on
> the site...
> 
> ---
> Justin French
> http://indent.com.au
> 
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Re: [WSG] Opera market share

[Justin French]

Where can I get the Opera 7.5 Beta?  Couldn't see an obvious link on 
the site...

---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
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Re: [WSG] A rave about 's

[Leo J. O'Campo]

Tonico

A website is not book. It is different, it is not something you hold 
in your hands,
This very true and sometimes people with print experience still need to 
grasp it (sorry guys... you know who you are).  However the reverse is 
also true.  Programmers think in terms of modules (sections) and 
algorithms, but these become esoteric to the rest of us.  I think that 
standards based development is the best chance we have to bridge these 
two worlds.  The semantic standards are closer to how we think and read 
books, newspapers, and websites. In other word, gather information.  
This information standard needs to be maintained across all media so as 
not to leave anyone behind.

Just my thoughts

Leo

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Re: [WSG] Opera market share

[Leo J. O'Campo]

Matthias...  lol   I lvoe it!

On Saturday, March 20, 2004, at 07:01  AM, Matthias wrote:

 Besides, as IE keeps me away from the more sophisticated things, 
Opera is no problem at all.
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Re: [WSG] Opera market share

[Leo J. O'Campo]

James

This , though will never give you an accurate picture as the UA can easily be faked (I can change Firefox to Safari).

I agree with everything you said, except the above.  How many people have the know how or intent to actually change the UA?  IMHO, not enough to throw off the bell curve. I don't even think in those terms unless it's for a special reason, such as a site discriminating against Mac. 

The only major issue I've come across with Opera is that clearing boxes (clear : both) clear floats way back in the document, rather than floats immediately 'above' the clear -

I have found that Opera adds top margin height or padding to my designs that don't show up in Safari, mozilla, NN, or even IE on the mac.  People always say Opera is the most compliant so maybe it's my code.

Leo

Re: [WSG] A rave about 's

[Tonico Strasser]

Thanks Russ,

that was a very lucid explanation.

The only question that is still open to me (and I think that is what 
Gyrus is pointing out), how should we mark up sections in a semantically 
rich and accesible way?

Example:


  HeaderStuff (not directly related to the actual document)


  The actual document


  Shopping card, news box, etc.


  Login form, preferences, links, etc.


  Meta navigation, copyright information, etc.

Thanks again.

Tonico

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Re: [WSG] Help us redesign the WSG site

[Tim Lucas]

russ weakley spoke the following wise words on 21/03/2004 1:58AM EST:
The WSG site was built very quickly when we first put the group together
(just over a year ago). It is very much overdue for a redesign. In the
spirit of group ownership, we thought it would be a good idea to open the
process up to all members.
Great! I only wish I had more time to encourage my creative side. So 
much of my time is spent doing technical stuff.

Can't wait to see the entries, and who knows... maybe some celebrity 
appearances?

-- tim

www.toolmantim.com

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Re: [WSG] A rave about 's

[Gyrus]

At 23:54 20/03/2004 +1100, you wrote:

Company founders
   Joe Blog
   Blurb about Joe...
   Joe's career highs
   Career blurb...
   Jane doe
   Blurb about Jane...
   Jane's career highs
   Career blurb...


   site sections
   
  section 1
To jump back to another related issue I raised, wouldn't this code - seen 
structurally - erroneously relate the "site sections" nav list to the main 
content title ("Company founders")? As s have no real semantic aspect, 
"site sections" here is, structurally speaking, another 2nd-level heading 
in the series: "Joe Blog", "Jane Doe", "site sections", etc. Which is 
plainly wrong.

I imagine that in XHTML 2 (and again, I'm no expert on upcoming specs) that 
 would be used instead of . But presumably then site 
sections would be site sections, and would implicitly - being 
the first heading in the  - be equivalent to site 
sections? Shouldn't we be using  now for the first title in each 
page "section"?

Gyrus
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://norlonto.net/gyrus/dev/
PGP key available 

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[WSG] Help us redesign the WSG site

[russ weakley]

Hi all,

The WSG site was built very quickly when we first put the group together
(just over a year ago). It is very much overdue for a redesign. In the
spirit of group ownership, we thought it would be a good idea to open the
process up to all members. Here is our idea:

1. Any member can submit a flat graphic mockup design (based on a soon to be
published design brief). Members can submit as many entires as they want,
and can also do so anonymously if they prefer. We will set aside a four week
period for the design phase.

2. All submitted designs will be checked to make sure they meet the brief
(sounds more scary than it is). Designs that meet the brief will be placed
online within the members section of the WSG site for inspection.

3. Members will be asked to vote on their preferred choice of design.

4. The winning entry will become the new design for the WSG website.

5. I will then cut and build templates from the winning design. This part
will be transparent. I'll do this as a step by step process from the flat
graphic mockup to the final html/css template. I'll stop for 24 hours after
each step and members can comment on and debate about the methods used.
Within a short period of time we will have a finished template - designed
and built by the group - so to speak.

6. Peter (listdad) will then apply the new templates across the site, and we
will go live.

Does this sound good? Would there be any members interested in taking up the
design challenge?

What is that? You want incentive? How about the winner gets a free copy of
Web Standards Solutions by Dan Cederholm:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1590593812/hivelogicwebl-20/103-61289
68-2011831

Rather flood the list with responses (for or against), please email us
directly at this stage. If there are enough positive responses we will
announce the commencement of the process to the list.

Get back to us with your opinion ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Russ

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Re: [WSG] A rave about 's

[russ weakley]

Tonico,

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, I realised that I gave you only an
opinion instead of a reason why there should be only one  on a page.

I think it is critical that even if there are two distinct topics on a page,
there must be some overall summary of them, and this should be used on the
pages  and in the pages . Why? If not for sighted
people, then at least for blind users.

Let's use a ridiculous example - a page with two topics - "frogs" and
"bats".


1. titles - what to use
---
First of all, on a page with two distinct topics, what you would use for
your page ?
A. "Frogs"?
B. "Bats"?
C. "Frogs and Bats"? - this third option is the only one that describes the
pages contents. It is also looking like a good example of an overall .


2. Confusion over page content
---
What about blind users accessing the page's contents. There are many ways
they could access the content, but they may let the screen reader go
straight into reading the contents on the page (rather than skimming via
links or headings). Assuming you have wrapped both headings (frogs and bats)
in  elements the first thing a blind user will hears is Frogs.

I have watched blind users in action. They do not have the luxury of
glancing over the page to check out its contents. They often have to make
quick decisions on what is on a page. They may assume (based on the pages
main heading) that this page is about "Frogs". After all, it is the first
title on the page and there is no mention of bats. And what if the blind
user was looking for bats? They may quickly leave the page assuming it was
only on frogs. The blind users I have watched have to make many more span
decisions than blind users. "Do I want to sit here and listen to this entire
page or is this quick section I have read enough to tell me the content is
probably not here?".


3. Logical content breakup
---
>From a purely logical point of view there should never be totally unrelated
sections of content on one page - this would confuse sighted and blind
users. There must be a reason you decided to put frogs and bats on the same
page - some thematic between the two topics. For example:

"Frogs and Bats of Eastern Australia"
"My special interests - frogs and bats"
"Tasty meals - frogs and bats"

If any of these were used as a title and the  on the page, the content
would have much more meaning for a blind user (as well as a sighted user).
Blind users coming to this page are given a clear indication that on this
page as both frogs and bats are mentioned. Even better, these two topics are
described along with their thematic relationship. Anyone reading these
headings would instantly understand and accept the two topics on the page
now.

With a descriptive heading like one of the examples above, content becomes
more accessible to a blind user. If they were interested in bats, they can
skip over the frogs section, knowing that there is info on bats below.


4. Accessible markup
---
For blind users especially, but also for sighted users, the markup would be
much more understandable (and therefore accessible) as:

Frogs and Bats of Eastern Australia
Frogs and Bats of Eastern Australia
Frogs
Blurb about frogs...
Bats
Blurb about Bats...


Does this make sense? I know... I really have to get a life :(
Russ



> We could probably argue this back and forward, but I feel very strongly that
> there should be only one  on a page and it should be the page title. I
> used to think it should be the site name but am moving away from that stance
> now.

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Re: [WSG] A rave about 's

[russ weakley]

We could probably argue this back and forward, but I feel very strongly that
there should be only one  on a page and it should be the page title. I
used to think it should be the site name but am moving away from that stance
now.

To use your example of 2 company founders - there would always need to be a
title above both founders:


Company founders
   Joe Blog
   Blurb about Joe...
   Joe's career highs
   Career blurb...
   Jane doe
   Blurb about Jane...
   Jane's career highs
   Career blurb...


   site sections
   
  section 1

Etc...

This has more meaning as the page TOPIC is introduced, then the sections are
introduced. I would find it a little odd to jump straight into a series of
founders without knowing that the page was ABOUT founders.

As said on the list before, semantically correct markup can be argued about
from many angles.

:)
Russ


> Hm, but in the real world there are often more then one highest
> elements. Like let's say two or more founders of the same company. Or
> two or more teams in a game?

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Re: [WSG] A rave about 's

[Tonico Strasser]

James Ellis schrieb:
Hi

My thinking is that hN delineates headings of the same semantic weight 
(or groups content), be they styled by CSS like  or  or not*:
I agree.

The difference being that h1 is the highest level of the headings in a 
document - there is nothing really that comes to mind that is higher up 
the tree in HTML.
Hm, but in the real world there are often more then one highest 
elements. Like let's say two or more founders of the same company. Or 
two or more teams in a game?

If there was one higher up the tree then using 
multiple h1s would be ok, something like the "" element 
comes to mind -- leaving headings to be headings. My rambling has been 
discussed earlier within an XHTML 2.0 thread I think
On this list?

Tonico

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Re: [WSG] A rave about 's

[Tonico Strasser]

Peter Firminger schrieb:
Yes it's quite legal but it's semantically poor. This is what information
architecture is all about.

h1  (logo, slogan, navigation, search etc.)
h1 
h1 
h1 
That is the structure I would like to use. Any thoughts?


Does the title of a book have the same semantic meaning as a chapter title
within it? No. One is a higher level of information. Just look at the table
of contents in any book. All chapters are within the book and the book, in
this case is the .
A website is not book. It is different, it is not something you hold in 
your hands, it is more abstract. For me a headline introduces a section. 
Nothing else. It doesn't give sections meanings or relations to other 
elements, except other .

Now  could either be the site logo/name etc or it could be
the title of the section of the site or even just the page title. Don't
think of it as how you want them to display on the page. Use CSS to make
them all look the same if that's your issue. This is about structure, not
presentation.
I'll admit that my example is not optimal. I'm talking about structure 
not presentation. The word global implies something like root, that's 
not what I wanted.

Think of it the same way as a document tree, an XML structure or a nested
list.
K.

[...]

Let's put that into a real scenario.

- Web Standards Group
  - Resources
- CSS Resources
  - CSS Selectors
  - CSS Specificity
- HTML Resources
  - HTML Metadata
My example:


  Web Standards Group
  Navigation
  
...
Resources
...
  


  Resources
  CSS Resources
  ...

Is this semantically false? The sections have no semantically relation 
te each other, they are separated, that's what I want. Of course you can 
see a relation between the selected item and the actual content, but 
that's you not the markup. For a machine they would be different 
equivalent sections. What do you think?

If you don't use the H1 for the global section then they all move up one in
the hierarchy and then H1 is correct for the section titles, but not the sub
sections. Otherwise they wouldn't be sub sections at all.
Ok, so it comes down to personal opinion what a section is?

BTW: Can someone point me to a good book or resource about semantics?

Thanks.

Tonico

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Re: [WSG] Opera market share

[Matthias]

Hi Hugh!

Now that it seems Opera is back in town for the Mac, with its 7.5 beta, has anyone come across any more current info on stats for this browser?
I looked at several stats and Opera has something between 1% and 8% marketshare. The 8%-Value is from a german newsite where IE has only 55% and Mozilla gets 35%, not the standard share I'd say.

Personally, I use Opera 7.23 for browsing, mail and - most importantly - website development. To be honest, it wouldn't be a big difference to me if I checked my pages in the latest Firefox or Mozilla as those interpret CSS the standard way. I have to say: If your site looks good in Firefox AND validates, Opera won't choke at all. Thinking of it, I don't know any major flaw in Operas way of interptreting CSS 2.0. Besides, as IE keeps me away from the more sophisticated things, Opera is no problem at all.

Regards
--
Matthias 
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[WSG] XHTML WSYWYG Editor

[Peter Firminger]

Hi lists,

We were sent an email about an ActiveX control that may be of interest to CMS
developers.

Here is the message:


I am one of the developers of XStandard - a standards-compliant XHTML 1.1
WYSIWYG editor. It helps non-technical business users generate clean and
accessible code. We have a free version because we want to promote standards
and make clean code in reach of every developer. I hope you'll check it out
at: http://xstandard.com/


The sender (Vlad from Toronto) has now joined the list as well! Welcome Vlad.

It's Windows only (as are most of these things and as they are nearly always
used in site admin areas, not really an issue) so if you build these kind of
systems, it's well worth downloading the 30 day trial and then having a look
through the online demo.

I suggest that rather than discuss this any further on the WSG list, anyone
wanting to discuss this (and other user data input issues) join the WSG
Content Management list by sending an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with "subscribe cms" (no quotes) as the BODY of the message.

There are some XHTML and CSS resources on the site as well that may be of
interest to everyone, even if the editor is of no interest to you
particularly. http://www.4guysfromrolla.com/webtech/120303-1.shtml is worth a
read too.

Regards,

Peter


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[WSG CMS] XHTML WSYWYG Editor

[Peter Firminger]

Hi lists,

We were sent an email about an ActiveX control that may be of interest to CMS
developers.

Here is the message:


I am one of the developers of XStandard - a standards-compliant XHTML 1.1
WYSIWYG editor. It helps non-technical business users generate clean and
accessible code. We have a free version because we want to promote standards
and make clean code in reach of every developer. I hope you'll check it out
at: http://xstandard.com/


The sender (Vlad from Toronto) has now joined the list as well! Welcome Vlad.

It's Windows only (as are most of these things and as they are nearly always
used in site admin areas, not really an issue) so if you build these kind of
systems, it's well worth downloading the 30 day trial and then having a look
through the online demo.

I suggest that rather than discuss this any further on the WSG list, anyone
wanting to discuss this (and other user data input issues) join the WSG
Content Management list by sending an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with "subscribe cms" (no quotes) as the BODY of the message.

There are some XHTML and CSS resources on the site as well that may be of
interest to everyone, even if the editor is of no interest to you
particularly. http://www.4guysfromrolla.com/webtech/120303-1.shtml is worth a
read too.

Regards,

Peter


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Re: [WSG] Opera market share

[James Ellis]

Hi

Firefox is still in beta as well (I believe it is branched off the 
Mozilla 1.6 alpha build). The current Mozilla is 1.6 and Firefox 1.0 
will most likely branch off 1.7 [1]. Developing to a beta's 
idiosyncrasies is fraught with danger, the best place to get them ironed 
out for Firefox is via Bugzilla rather than Rogaine.

Getting back to the thread, when Opera shows itself as IE, it leaves the 
substring "Opera" in the User Agent string. If you are into stats then 
you can gain a good understanding of Opera %ages by greping (parsing) 
your log files for the substring Opera. This , though will never give 
you an accurate picture as the UA can easily be faked (I can change 
Firefox to Safari).
This is why building to the relevant recommendation is the best path, 
independent of browser stats, then do the necessary tweaking.

The only major issue I've come across with Opera is that clearing boxes 
(clear : both) clear floats way back in the document, rather than floats 
immediately 'above' the clear - I think I posted a question about this a 
while back, still haven't solved it.

Aside from this, I was talking to a (OSX user) colleague the other day 
about Opera 7.5 on the Mac and how it seemed that the latest release of 
every browser bar one for OSX were for all intents and purposes 
compliant.  How good is that!

Cheers
James
[1]http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?p=398475



Leo J. O'Campo wrote:

Hugh

Russ is right. Standards based design done visually or not will save 
you time and headaches.   Besides, Opera 7.5 is still beta so why 
should you even care about it yet.  The current Opera doesn't rendered 
well on the Mac and I suspect the new Opera won't be any better.  IMHO 
you should stick with FireFox, Mozilla, and Safari for visual 
designing on the Mac.

Leo

On Saturday, March 20, 2004, at 12:50  AM, Hugh Todd wrote:

whether it was worth putting in the work to fix any Opera idiosyncracies


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