Re: [WSG] When the mix of visual appearance and meaning goes really bad
Andy Budd wrote: Seems like using i or span class=italic are pretty much the same. No, here the span is worse. But it isn't a fair comparison since on one hand you're using the wrong tool the right way, but on the other hand you're using the right tool the wrong way. The class and id attribute, especially in a div or span, is a tool for conveying semantic content. Even something like div id=col1, while better, is far from ideal. At least col1 says it's a division of the content, while class=italics only says something about presentation. Mordechai * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Forms, labels headers
El dom, 09-05-2004 a las 05:56, Bert Doorn escribió: Really, what is the practical (as opposed to philosophical) difference between the two methods? Hi Bert, are you asking why using tables for layout is stupid? :-) http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/ -- Manuel González Noriega Simplelógica, construcción web URL: http://simplelogica.net EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TELEFONO: (+34) 985 22 12 65 Logicola es el weblog de Simplelógica http://simplelogica.net/logicola/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Textarea problem
I'm having a problem with a textarea. It will display properly on the
page (which has three div columns) but when a person begins to input
data it automatically expands (to the right) so it occupies two columns
instead of just the middle column. I've never seen anything like this
before...
textarea name='msg' class='t1'/textarea
.t1 {
display:inline; - this is a tip I got from the mail list
width:98%;
height:125px;
}
I've validated the code and this problem seems consistent in IE6 in
windows 2000.
Has anybody experience this same problem? I could post more code for
this but I'll wait and see if there might be an easy solution to this
first.
Thanks, v
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RE: [WSG] Forms, labels headers
Hi, are you asking why using tables for layout is stupid? :-) http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/ I know using multiple tables, nested n levels deep is stupid and results in lots of excess code. So is using font tags etc. That's why I don't design that way. But sometimes it is (to me) unavoidable to use a table, because the alternatives just don't work consistently enough across browsers. Thanks for the link. http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/14transitional.html sums it up for me, while the pages following it don't apply to sites I design. I've seen plenty like that, including a site that has a home page with 40k of HTML that includes 40 tables, some of which only hold ONE word (4 characters of content hidden in a total of 262 bytes of tag soup) Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design www.betterwebdesign.com.au Fast-loading, user-friendly websites * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Helen Rysavy is out of the office until 24 May 2004
I will be out of the office starting 10/05/2004 and will not return until 24/05/2004. Hi, thanks for your email. I am away until 24 May. Please contact Dahlia Docherty on x 6569 in my absence. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Font Sizes
YoYoEtc wrote: Just wanted to make a comment - criticism perhaps - of the size of the print/text I see on some web sites I have visited. Honestly, I am not old and I almost need a magnifying glass to see some of it. Sometimes it seems that the designer has tried to cram as much as is humanly possible on to one screen - and these appear to be experienced designers. Initially, I thought perhaps it was because I was using a four-year old monitor. Well, I bought a new computer just four months ago, along with a new 19-inch monitor - and nothing has changed! Is it a new trend to try to make fonts as microscopic as possible? To me, that would be against any feasible standard of good usability. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * There's a good lesson there: use relative font sizes, so people's user defined style sheets don't break your page. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Helen Rysavy is out of the office until 24 May 2004
I will be out of the office starting 10/05/2004 and will not return until 24/05/2004. Hi, thanks for your email. I am away until 24 May. Please contact Dahlia Docherty on x 6569 in my absence. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Font Sizes
My monitor is set for 1042x768. I understand what you are saying about fonts taken from an elementary schoolbook. Those can be even more annoying. I am referring to fonts that appear to be perhaps a 6 or 7 point size on screen. Honestly, you can hardly read some of them. What is ctrl+scrollwheel? I have a Logitech mouse with a scrollwheel in the middle (which I rarely use - was raised in DOS times with old fashined mouse grin) At 03:45 PM 5/9/2004, Rimantas Liubertas wrote: Y Initially, I thought perhaps it was because I was using a four-year old Y monitor. Well, I bought a new computer just four months ago, along with a Y new 19-inch monitor - and nothing has changed! The size of the font on the screen depends more on resolution you've set for your monitor, than on its size. Y Is it a new trend to try to make fonts as microscopic as possible? To me, Y that would be against any feasible standard of good usability. Frankly, I've tired of all this endless dancing around font sizes long ago. I'm am using Firefox and ctrl+scrollwheel takes all the fuss away. Usability depends on many things too. Talk about line length, line height, font outline, colors etc. Still I like smaller fonts more than those making text to look like it's been taken from the elementary schoolbook. All said represents my position as the web user, not developer. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Font Sizes
Is Firefox yet another browser? In designing sites, are there other browsers I need to take into consideration other than Internet Explorer, Netscape, Mozilla, Opera and WebTV? At 03:45 PM 5/9/2004, Rimantas Liubertas wrote: Frankly, I've tired of all this endless dancing around font sizes long ago. I'm am using Firefox and ctrl+scrollwheel takes all the fuss away. Usability depends on many things too. Talk about line length, line height, font outline, colors etc. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re[2]: [WSG] Font Sizes
Hello YoYoEtc, Sunday, May 9, 2004, 11:00:49 PM, you wrote: ... Y What is ctrl+scrollwheel? I have a Logitech mouse with a scrollwheel in the Y middle (which I rarely use - was raised in DOS times with old fashined Y mouse grin) Well this is just an very effective way to increase-decrease font size if I don't like the default one. Press CTRL and turn the wheel. I am a big fun of keyboard, but scrollwheel (for scrolling) is so convenient :) I am aware most users are not aware they can change font size. Well, that's sad. Regards, Rimantas * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Textarea problem
Can you post a demo link?
On 10/05/2004, at 12:14 AM, Vaska.WSG wrote:
I'm having a problem with a textarea. It will display properly on the
page (which has three div columns) but when a person begins to input
data it automatically expands (to the right) so it occupies two
columns instead of just the middle column. I've never seen anything
like this before...
textarea name='msg' class='t1'/textarea
.t1 {
display:inline; - this is a tip I got from the mail list
width:98%;
height:125px;
}
I've validated the code and this problem seems consistent in IE6 in
windows 2000.
Has anybody experience this same problem? I could post more code for
this but I'll wait and see if there might be an easy solution to this
first.
---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
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for some hints on posting to the list getting help
*
Re: [WSG] Font Sizes
So this means I only need to proof it in one of Firefox, Mozilla or Netscape, not all three. Is that correct? At 04:19 PM 5/9/2004, Felix Miata wrote: Firefox, Mozilla and Netscape are all the same Gecko rendering engine. Netscape 6/7 are simply older versions. -- ** Tina * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] WSG Design competition is closed
Thanks to everyone who submitted designs for the new WSG site revamp. We will be post them online late this coming weekend for voting. The winning entry will get instant glory, fame and a free book (Web Standards Solutions: The Markup and Style Handbook). Well... maybe just the book... Get your voting hats ready! Russ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Forms, labels headers
I know using multiple tables, nested n levels deep is stupid and results in lots of excess code. So is using font tags etc. That's why I don't design that way. But sometimes it is (to me) unavoidable to use a table, because the alternatives just don't work consistently enough across browsers. This is the approach recommended for people getting started with css layouts in Zeldman's most excellent tome, Designing with web standards. I think it's a good approach... I usually go for a fully css-positioned layout first, but sometimes extenuating (sp?) circumstances force us to use a table. For example, just last week we had a lovely three column layout, but unfortunately Macromedia Contribute wouldn't allow one of the columns to be edited, so we had to change the floated columns to a single three column table. It's not ideal, but not exactly the end of the world either. K. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Font Sizes
I wouldn't bother testing in WebTV at all. It has a tiny market share and pretty limited functionality. Jake Quoting YoYoEtc [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Is Firefox yet another browser? In designing sites, are there other browsers I need to take into consideration other than Internet Explorer, Netscape, Mozilla, Opera and WebTV? At 03:45 PM 5/9/2004, Rimantas Liubertas wrote: Frankly, I've tired of all this endless dancing around font sizes long ago. I'm am using Firefox and ctrl+scrollwheel takes all the fuss away. Usability depends on many things too. Talk about line length, line height, font outline, colors etc. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Textarea problem
On May 9, 2004, at 11:14 pm, Vaska.WSG wrote:
I'm having a problem with a textarea. It will display properly on the
page (which has three div columns) but when a person begins to input
data it automatically expands (to the right) so it occupies two
columns instead of just the middle column. I've never seen anything
like this before...
textarea name='msg' class='t1'/textarea
.t1 {
display:inline; - this is a tip I got from the mail list
width:98%;
height:125px;
}
I've seen this more when using percentage based width (and the same
happens to tables, but mostly in quirks mode).
One solution is to have a width (or height [1]) explicitly declared on
the direct parent container.
[1] height:1% on that parent container would be OK, but only served to
IE Windows, by using the 'Holly' hack.
Hack explained down this page
http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/threepxtest.html
---/---
Philippe Wittenbergh
now live : http://emps.l-c-n.com/
code | design | web projects : http://www.l-c-n.com/
IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/
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Re: [WSG] csscreator.com multimenu
I respectfully disagree. Based on the latest browser statistics 92% of all users have JavaScript turned on. In addition, JavaScript enabled dropdown menus are still a viable method of creating navigation systems. There are certainly a number of older browsers that do not support the latest enhancements to Style Sheets, which incorporate the dropdown menu effect. MC I'd stay away from it. The main reason being the use of Javascript in there, effectively killing it for a lot of MS IE users who disable JS. I personally wouldn't accept it not working in such a situation. On May 9, 2004, at 03:56, Neerav wrote: What do WSG members think of www.csscreator.com/menu/multimenu.php ? has anyone used it in their sites? Im thinking of implenting it for a client and replacing the existing ~30kb DHTML vertical menu, I believe it was designed by a WSG member. According to the author Browser Support is: Works with: IE 5, IE 5.5, IE 6, NN 7.1, Mozilla 1.3 Opera 7.01, Opera 7.22, Phoenix 0.5, Firebird 0.7 on Windows, Camino 0.7 on Mac Fails in: NN4, Opera 6.05 on Windows. Safari 1.0, IE5.2 on Mac Im happy enough with that compatibility as theres a full text sitemap for people for whom the menu doesnt display properly. -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] csscreator.com multimenu
That depends whether the menu is essential for navigation or not. If it is just an added extra, but there are still other ways to get around I would still feel free to use it! Michael Donnermeyer wrote: I'd stay away from it. The main reason being the use of Javascript in there, effectively killing it for a lot of MS IE users who disable JS. I personally wouldn't accept it not working in such a situation. On May 9, 2004, at 03:56, Neerav wrote: What do WSG members think of www.csscreator.com/menu/multimenu.php ? has anyone used it in their sites? Im thinking of implenting it for a client and replacing the existing ~30kb DHTML vertical menu, I believe it was designed by a WSG member. According to the author Browser Support is: Works with: IE 5, IE 5.5, IE 6, NN 7.1, Mozilla 1.3 Opera 7.01, Opera 7.22, Phoenix 0.5, Firebird 0.7 on Windows, Camino 0.7 on Mac Fails in: NN4, Opera 6.05 on Windows. Safari 1.0, IE5.2 on Mac Im happy enough with that compatibility as theres a full text sitemap for people for whom the menu doesnt display properly. -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] csscreator.com multimenu
Neerav, Safari 1 and IE 5 account for most Mac users at this point, I would think. You would want to make sure that the appearance of the menu degrades gracefully, if you decide to go this way. Fails in: NN4, Opera 6.05 on Windows. Safari 1.0, IE5.2 on Mac Im happy enough with that compatibility as theres a full text sitemap for people for whom the menu doesnt display properly. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] JS Percentages?
I wouldn't trust JS as far as I could throw it (can you throw code?) ... but is there a statistic on how many users actually disable it in their browsers? Is it possible to sniff that out, and if so, how many users per group are we talking about? -Ryan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] JS Percentages?
And if some users do indeed disable it, what sort of code do you put it as an alternative to get the site to do what you want it to do? At 11:23 PM 5/9/2004, Ryan Christie wrote: I wouldn't trust JS as far as I could throw it (can you throw code?) ... but is there a statistic on how many users actually disable it in their browsers? Is it possible to sniff that out, and if so, how many users per group are we talking about? - Tina * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Forms, labels headers
I seriously just have to add, those toons are priceless :) excellent resource Manuel! -Ryan Manuel González Noriega wrote: El dom, 09-05-2004 a las 05:56, Bert Doorn escribió: Really, what is the practical (as opposed to philosophical) difference between the two methods? Hi Bert, are you asking why using tables for layout is stupid? :-) http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] JS Percentages?
YoYoEtc wrote: And if some users do indeed disable it, what sort of code do you put it as an alternative to get the site to do what you want it to do? Server-side languages such as PHP or ASP. JS is a client language because it's dependant on a user's browser to supply the processing power for whatever facet, most commonly the ability to process JavaScript or X/HTML. Some may not understand the nature of a server-side, so here is an explanation. Say you want to output the result from a calculation. The calculation could be, for instance, adding two and two together. If it is written in JavaScript, the page will be sent out containing the yet-to-be-run JavaScript code asking the user's browser to call up its JS powers, process the code, and display the answer 4. If it is written in PHP, when the browser makes a call to the server to pick up a copy of your web page, the web server your files reside on will take the page and process it before sending out any data to the user's browser. After being computed, the page will be sent out to the user with the answer in place. If you open up a page that has been processed using PHP or ASP, you will not see any indications that a script was previously running. You will simply see, for example, a paragrpah containing the number 4 below a previously unsolved equation. Due to taking the processing responsibility off your user's browser and placing it on the server, universal computation is ensured since patrons are fed the end results in HTML. PS thanks Mario for the statistics -Ryan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] csscreator.com multimenu
Hi All, My first post to this list. A couple of points regarding CSSCreator MultiMenu which may have been overlooked. Firstly JavaScript is only needed by IE for that menu, any of the other supported browsers will function fine without it. I like the menu because of the very small JavaScript file and would be interested to see any other similar menus that function without JavaScript. If IE with javascript disabled is a problem it would be fairly easy to give it an open bulleted list or formated however you want. The steps would be something along these lines: Firstly load the CSS as normal for all browsers. Then use the Holly Hack or something similar to give IE only a menu that is open and available without JavaScript. Lastly use JavaScript for IE with JavaScript to close up the menu and prepare it for action. This would of course complicate the menu and moves away from the simple menu that it is now. It is wise to provide an alternative way of navigating a site when using any menu. Hope that helps. Tony. http://www.csscreator.com http://www.appcreator.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] HTML/XHTML, CSS Validation Tools on Linux !
Thank you. I am downloading them will try to configure on my local server :-) I will see if I could find them anywhere in a package, as downloading through CVS won't be that easy for everyone. Regards Prayers, -Meraj --- Mark Stanton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know the W3C validator is available as a Debian package (the link checker is also part of the package) - we've got it running locally here. The source of the HTML CSS validators are available if thats the sort of thing you are looking for. http://validator.w3.org/source/ http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/DOWNLOAD.html Cheers Mark = LinuxChopal.com - the Spirit __ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] csscreator.com multimenu
What do WSG members think of www.csscreator.com/menu/multimenu.php ? has anyone used it in their sites? Im thinking of implenting it for a client and replacing the existing ~30kb DHTML vertical menu, I believe it was designed by a WSG member. According to the author Browser Support is: Works with: IE 5, IE 5.5, IE 6, NN 7.1, Mozilla 1.3 Opera 7.01, Opera 7.22, Phoenix 0.5, Firebird 0.7 on Windows, Camino 0.7 on Mac Fails in: NN4, Opera 6.05 on Windows. Safari 1.0, IE5.2 on Mac Im happy enough with that compatibility as theres a full text sitemap for people for whom the menu doesnt display properly. -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
