Re: [WSG] alt or title...

[Roger Johansson]

On 9 dec 2004, at 08.23, Lea de Groot wrote:
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 07:20:56 +1100, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
wrote:
It's good practise to have the title attribute also on images (in 
addition
to the ALT), as some browsers won't display the ALT Text as a tooltip.
Does that validate? I didn't think title was a valid attribute for the
img tag?
The title attribute is allowed for nearly all elements. More 
specifically, all elements but base, basefont, head, html, meta, param, 
script, and title.

< http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/index/attributes.html >
/Roger
--
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RE: [WSG] alt or title...

[Bert Doorn]

G'day

>> It's good practise to have the title attribute also on images (in 
>> addition to the ALT), as some browsers won't display the ALT Text as a 
>> tooltip.

> Does that validate? I didn't think title was a valid attribute for the img
tag?

Should do:

>From http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/index/attributes.html:

Title:
   All elements but BASE, BASEFONT, HEAD, HTML, META, PARAM, SCRIPT, TITLE

See also http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#edef-IMG which
says the img element can have core attributes

The title attribute is one of them:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/sgml/dtd.html#coreattrs

Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Web Developer
Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites





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RE: [WSG] alt or title...

[Lea de Groot]

On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 07:20:56 +1100, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] 
wrote:
> It's good practise to have the title attribute also on images (in addition
> to the ALT), as some browsers won't display the ALT Text as a tooltip.

Does that validate? I didn't think title was a valid attribute for the 
img tag?

Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet 
Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web 
Design
Brisbane, Australia
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[WSG] XHTML and Forums - A Red Rag and the Bull

[Steven Clark]

This may or may not be on topic but I had to blog it. Forgive me please if 
its O.T.

  http://www.blog.nortypig.com
Agree or not its a common event nowdays to be accosted by some one-issue 
madman or another over some standards related issue, not all of them in 
proper perspective either.

Norty Pig Web Development
http://www.nortypig.com
http://www.blog.nortypig.com
_
Click here for the latest chart ringtones:  
http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp

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RE: [WSG] alt or title...

[Brett Walsh]

I agree that a title would not say this is a photo of mark and his cat at
sea but it would be ok to say alt="Photo: Mark and his cat sitting at sea"
you'd think as this tells the user that this is meant to be a photo and for
whatever reason the browser has had to display the alt text.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Hugh Todd
Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2004 1:36 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] alt or title...

In response to Derek Featherstone,

My (hopefully useful) contribution picks up on something I learnt in my 
brief flirtation with the advertising industry.

A caption should not restate what is in the image. The two should be 
complementary.

So, let's say the image is of a person and a cat sitting by the sea. 
The caption should not repeat what is in the image, but provide 
information that is not there. The caption may tell us that this is 
Mark, and that this is not just any cat, but his cat (perhaps with a 
name). It should not tell us that it is beside the sea, because we can 
see that, but may tell us which piece of foreshore it is. It should not 
tell us that they are happy because this, too, is evident from the 
image. Nor that they are sitting. It may tell us when the photo was 
taken, but not that it is a photo, because we know this.

"Mark and Puddles at Bondi, 9 December 2004"

Anything useful about the photo that is not described in the caption 
can now go in the alt tag.

-Hugh Todd

> What is critical and what is "extra" is determined by context. In 
> general,
> the lower tech the approach, the more accessible it is. If it is in the
> content, everyone gets what they need, instead of having to rely on a
> tooltip which may or may not appear for the information.

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RE: [WSG] alt or title...

[Andreas Boehmer]

> Derek Featherstone wrote:
> -
> What is critical and what is "extra" is determined by context. In general,
> the lower tech the approach, the more accessible it is. If it is in the
> content, everyone gets what they need, instead of having to rely on a
> tooltip which may or may not appear for the information.
> 
> The title attribute is just one way of hiding what might (notice I said
> might) be better placed in the actual content itself...
> http://www.wats.ca/articles/hiddeninformation/63

I agree with you in a way: crucial information should not be HIDDEN in
the title (or the ALT) of an image. But, if we remember that web users
tend to scan content on a website rather than reading it: chances are
crucial information in the content gets missed as well. 

In that case, putting it into the content AND into the title will double
the chances of crucial content being read. Or not? Sometimes, to make
things more user-friendly, we have to give multiple accesspoints to the
same information.
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RE: [WSG] alt or title...

[Cook, Graham R]

Sorry, didn't read complete post

Graham 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Natalie Buxton
Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2004 2:29 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] alt or title...

Can you place the acronym tag within an ALT or TITLE tag though? Dont
think you can.


On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:25:22 +1100, Cook, Graham R
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I would recommend the acronym tag eg AMP
> 
> I usually assign this style
> style="CURSOR: help; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px dotted"
> 
> Graham Cook
> 
> Standards Manager - Content Integrity
> Data & Online
> Telstra Technology
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> On Behalf Of Herrod, Lisa
> Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2004 2:19 PM
> To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject: RE: [WSG] alt or title...
> 
> how about using a space between letters instead of a 'stop'. eg A M P
?
> 
> lisa
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Web Usability [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 2:13 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [WSG] alt or title...
> 
> From my observations the inclusion of a full stop at the end of an alt

> tag is not really necessary.
> 
> However, if you use initials in the alt that you want be read out as 
> separate letters then it is essential to put a full stop after each 
> letter.
> EG alt="AMP newsletter" will be read as amp newsletter (as in 
> electricity).
> You should write it thus - alt="A.M.P. newsletter"
> 
> BTW screen readers will even try to make words out of nonsense 
> grouping of letter such as GST
> 
> Roger
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Andy Kirkwood | MOTIVE
> Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2004 1:39 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [WSG] alt or title...
> 
> Does anyone have a (ideally substantiated) approach to use us of the 
> fullstop/period in alt tags and/or title tags?
> 
> e.g. alt="My goldfish" title="On holiday in Spain", v.s alt="My 
> goldfish." title="On holiday in Spain."
> 
> Seem to recall mention of screen-readers requiring the punctuation in 
> the same way that an in-text list of hrefs require a non-linked 
> separating character.
> 
> All conditional considerations welcome...
> 
> --
> Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director
> 
> MOTIVE | web.design.integrity
> http://www.motive.co.nz/
> ph: +64 4 3 800 800  fx: +64 4 970 9693
> mob: 021 369 693
> 93 Rintoul St, Newtown
> PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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> **
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> 
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> **
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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> 
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> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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> 
> 


--
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www.nataliebuxton.com
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Re: [WSG] alt or title...

[Natalie Buxton]

Can you place the acronym tag within an ALT or TITLE tag though? Dont
think you can.


On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:25:22 +1100, Cook, Graham R
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I would recommend the acronym tag eg AMP
> 
> I usually assign this style
> style="CURSOR: help; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px dotted"
> 
> Graham Cook
> 
> Standards Manager - Content Integrity
> Data & Online
> Telstra Technology
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Herrod, Lisa
> Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2004 2:19 PM
> To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject: RE: [WSG] alt or title...
> 
> how about using a space between letters instead of a 'stop'. eg A M P ?
> 
> lisa
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Web Usability [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 2:13 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [WSG] alt or title...
> 
> From my observations the inclusion of a full stop at the end of an alt
> tag is not really necessary.
> 
> However, if you use initials in the alt that you want be read out as
> separate letters then it is essential to put a full stop after each
> letter.
> EG alt="AMP newsletter" will be read as amp newsletter (as in
> electricity).
> You should write it thus - alt="A.M.P. newsletter"
> 
> BTW screen readers will even try to make words out of nonsense grouping
> of letter such as GST
> 
> Roger
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Andy Kirkwood | MOTIVE
> Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2004 1:39 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [WSG] alt or title...
> 
> Does anyone have a (ideally substantiated) approach to use us of the
> fullstop/period in alt tags and/or title tags?
> 
> e.g. alt="My goldfish" title="On holiday in Spain", v.s alt="My
> goldfish." title="On holiday in Spain."
> 
> Seem to recall mention of screen-readers requiring the punctuation in
> the same way that an in-text list of hrefs require a non-linked
> separating character.
> 
> All conditional considerations welcome...
> 
> --
> Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director
> 
> MOTIVE | web.design.integrity
> http://www.motive.co.nz/
> ph: +64 4 3 800 800  fx: +64 4 970 9693
> mob: 021 369 693
> 93 Rintoul St, Newtown
> PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
> 


-- 
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www.nataliebuxton.com
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RE: [WSG] alt or title...

[Cook, Graham R]

I would recommend the acronym tag eg AMP 

I usually assign this style
style="CURSOR: help; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px dotted"

Graham Cook


Standards Manager - Content Integrity
Data & Online
Telstra Technology


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Herrod, Lisa
Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2004 2:19 PM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: RE: [WSG] alt or title...

how about using a space between letters instead of a 'stop'. eg A M P ?

lisa

-Original Message-
From: Web Usability [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 2:13 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] alt or title...


>From my observations the inclusion of a full stop at the end of an alt
tag is not really necessary.

However, if you use initials in the alt that you want be read out as
separate letters then it is essential to put a full stop after each
letter.
EG alt="AMP newsletter" will be read as amp newsletter (as in
electricity).
You should write it thus - alt="A.M.P. newsletter"

BTW screen readers will even try to make words out of nonsense grouping
of letter such as GST

Roger

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Andy Kirkwood | MOTIVE
Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2004 1:39 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] alt or title...


Does anyone have a (ideally substantiated) approach to use us of the
fullstop/period in alt tags and/or title tags?

e.g. alt="My goldfish" title="On holiday in Spain", v.s alt="My
goldfish." title="On holiday in Spain."

Seem to recall mention of screen-readers requiring the punctuation in
the same way that an in-text list of hrefs require a non-linked
separating character.

All conditional considerations welcome...

--
Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director

MOTIVE | web.design.integrity
http://www.motive.co.nz/
ph: +64 4 3 800 800  fx: +64 4 970 9693
mob: 021 369 693
93 Rintoul St, Newtown
PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand
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[WSG] WSG survey - last call please!

[russ - maxdesign]

Hi all,

Have you filled in our quick WSG survey?
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=44544720503

If not, this is a good chance to let us know what you think of the group,
the mail list and any suggestions or improvements you may have.

We will close the survey at the end of this weekend.
Thanks to all those who have already filled it in.
Russ

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RE: [WSG] alt or title...

[Herrod, Lisa]

how about using a space between letters instead of a 'stop'. eg A M P ?

lisa

-Original Message-
From: Web Usability [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 2:13 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] alt or title...


>From my observations the inclusion of a full stop at the end of an alt tag
is not really necessary.

However, if you use initials in the alt that you want be read out as
separate letters then it is essential to put a full stop after each letter.
EG alt="AMP newsletter" will be read as amp newsletter (as in electricity).
You should write it thus - alt="A.M.P. newsletter"

BTW screen readers will even try to make words out of nonsense grouping of
letter such as GST

Roger

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Andy Kirkwood | MOTIVE
Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2004 1:39 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] alt or title...


Does anyone have a (ideally substantiated) approach to use us of the
fullstop/period in alt tags and/or title tags?

e.g. alt="My goldfish" title="On holiday in Spain", v.s
alt="My goldfish." title="On holiday in Spain."

Seem to recall mention of screen-readers requiring the punctuation in
the same way that an in-text list of hrefs require a non-linked
separating character.

All conditional considerations welcome...

--
Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director

MOTIVE | web.design.integrity
http://www.motive.co.nz/
ph: +64 4 3 800 800  fx: +64 4 970 9693
mob: 021 369 693
93 Rintoul St, Newtown
PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand
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RE: [WSG] alt or title...

[Web Usability]

>From my observations the inclusion of a full stop at the end of an alt tag
is not really necessary.

However, if you use initials in the alt that you want be read out as
separate letters then it is essential to put a full stop after each letter.
EG alt="AMP newsletter" will be read as amp newsletter (as in electricity).
You should write it thus - alt="A.M.P. newsletter"

BTW screen readers will even try to make words out of nonsense grouping of
letter such as GST

Roger

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Andy Kirkwood | MOTIVE
Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2004 1:39 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] alt or title...


Does anyone have a (ideally substantiated) approach to use us of the
fullstop/period in alt tags and/or title tags?

e.g. alt="My goldfish" title="On holiday in Spain", v.s
alt="My goldfish." title="On holiday in Spain."

Seem to recall mention of screen-readers requiring the punctuation in
the same way that an in-text list of hrefs require a non-linked
separating character.

All conditional considerations welcome...

--
Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director

MOTIVE | web.design.integrity
http://www.motive.co.nz/
ph: +64 4 3 800 800  fx: +64 4 970 9693
mob: 021 369 693
93 Rintoul St, Newtown
PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand
**
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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Re: [WSG] alt or title...

[Darren Wood]

Andy Kirkwood | MOTIVE wrote:
Does anyone have a (ideally substantiated) approach to use us of the 
fullstop/period in alt tags and/or title tags?

e.g. alt="My goldfish" title="On holiday in Spain", v.s
alt="My goldfish." title="On holiday in Spain."
Seem to recall mention of screen-readers requiring the punctuation in 
the same way that an in-text list of hrefs require a non-linked 
separating character.

All conditional considerations welcome...
I'm guessing screen readers need punctuation in order to read it correctly.
I've not actually seen/heard this, but judging by the fact that screen 
readers have a problem with the phrase 'Skip to content.' I'm keen to 
give as much punctuation (help...) as I can.

Cheers
D
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Re: [WSG] alt or title...

[Hugh Todd]

In response to Derek Featherstone,
My (hopefully useful) contribution picks up on something I learnt in my 
brief flirtation with the advertising industry.

A caption should not restate what is in the image. The two should be 
complementary.

So, let's say the image is of a person and a cat sitting by the sea. 
The caption should not repeat what is in the image, but provide 
information that is not there. The caption may tell us that this is 
Mark, and that this is not just any cat, but his cat (perhaps with a 
name). It should not tell us that it is beside the sea, because we can 
see that, but may tell us which piece of foreshore it is. It should not 
tell us that they are happy because this, too, is evident from the 
image. Nor that they are sitting. It may tell us when the photo was 
taken, but not that it is a photo, because we know this.

"Mark and Puddles at Bondi, 9 December 2004"
Anything useful about the photo that is not described in the caption 
can now go in the alt tag.

-Hugh Todd
What is critical and what is "extra" is determined by context. In 
general,
the lower tech the approach, the more accessible it is. If it is in the
content, everyone gets what they need, instead of having to rely on a
tooltip which may or may not appear for the information.
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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RE: [WSG] alt or title...

[Andy Kirkwood | MOTIVE]

Does anyone have a (ideally substantiated) approach to use us of the 
fullstop/period in alt tags and/or title tags?

e.g. alt="My goldfish" title="On holiday in Spain", v.s
alt="My goldfish." title="On holiday in Spain."
Seem to recall mention of screen-readers requiring the punctuation in 
the same way that an in-text list of hrefs require a non-linked 
separating character.

All conditional considerations welcome...
--
Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director
MOTIVE | web.design.integrity
http://www.motive.co.nz/
ph: +64 4 3 800 800  fx: +64 4 970 9693
mob: 021 369 693
93 Rintoul St, Newtown
PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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RE: [WSG] alt or title...

[Derek Featherstone]

On Wednesday, December 08, 2004 8:14 PM, Andreas Boehmer wrote:
> "Mark and his cat sitting happily by the sea" gives me
> the information I want. It explains the image quite well and
> even though I can see the image straight infront of me it is
> still useful for me to know the title. It tells me: this is
> Mark and his cat. The name of the cat doesn't seem to be
> important, nor the name of the sea.
> 
> "Photo taken in Sydney on the 12th March 2004" on the other hand is
> information I would rather put into the content of the site, as it is
> describing the image, but it is not really the "title" of the
> image. But that's just me and other people might do it differently.

And this is exactly, in my opinion, where the crux of the matter lies.

*You* have made the decision as to what *you* think should be "advisory"
content and placed in the title attribute of the image. *You* have also
decided what should go in the content. That is, you've decided that "Photo
taken in Sydney on the 12th March 2004" is the information that everyone
should get because it is in plain view in the content. That doesn't help the
person that is looking to determine what is actually in the picture -- they
would prefer to read "Mark and his cat sitting happily by the sea" plainly
in the content. So, what does the user want?  In this case, I'd argue
strongly for the lower tech approach and leaving the title attribute as
title="" on the image or not adding it all, and the following, plainly in
the content:

"Mark and his cat sitting happily by the sea. Photo taken in Sydney on the
12th March 2004"

What is critical and what is "extra" is determined by context. In general,
the lower tech the approach, the more accessible it is. If it is in the
content, everyone gets what they need, instead of having to rely on a
tooltip which may or may not appear for the information.

The title attribute is just one way of hiding what might (notice I said
might) be better placed in the actual content itself...
http://www.wats.ca/articles/hiddeninformation/63

As always, my opinion... 

Best regards,
Derek.
-- 
Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone: 613.599.9784;   toll-free: 1.866.932.4878 (North America)
Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com
Web Accessibility:  http://www.wats.ca
Personal: http://www.boxofchocolates.ca

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Re: [WSG] alt or title...

[Sabrina xxx]

hello, does somebody hear me??
From: "Patrick H. Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] alt or title...
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 01:22:42 +
Andreas Boehmer wrote:
We are talking about a picture of a man and his cat. As a user I might
want to know what exactly is on this picture.
[...]
I'd be interested to see what people would do with an image of Yves
Klein "Monochrome Blue":
http://www.artzine-journal.com/3rd_Issue/Source/arabsten.html
I would love to see the ALT tag and TITLE of that one. :)
Don't forget about LONGDESC!
--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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Koop geen kat in een zak. Probeer alles 14 dagen bij jou thuis. 
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Re: [WSG] alt or title...

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Andreas Boehmer wrote:
We are talking about a picture of a man and his cat. As a user I might
want to know what exactly is on this picture. 
[...]
I'd be interested to see what people would do with an image of Yves
Klein "Monochrome Blue":
http://www.artzine-journal.com/3rd_Issue/Source/arabsten.html
I would love to see the ALT tag and TITLE of that one. :) 
Don't forget about LONGDESC!
--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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Re: [WSG] alt or title...

[Andreas Boehmer]

> 
> The title is there to provide supplementary/additional information,
> over and above what the image expresses.
> 
> Whether there is a link around the image or not has no bearing on
> this. alt is required on images and title is optional but often
> useful. A title on the link should provide additional information
> about the link, not the image.
> 
> So for example:
> 
> 
>
> Mark Stanton 
> Gruden Pty Ltd 
> http://www.gruden.com


I guess we all agree that the title attribute for an image is quite
useful and should not be forgotten. It seems our interpretation of what
should be in that title differs slightly, but I think discussing over
that is like discussing over what is written in a book - there is no one
way to deliver information.

Personally, I wouldn't use the title as in the example above, because I
want to provide the user with specific information on what the image is
about. 

We are talking about a picture of a man and his cat. As a user I might
want to know what exactly is on this picture. It's like the title of a
painting: how does the author capture the essence of the image in one
short sentence? "Mark and his cat sitting happily by the sea" gives me
the information I want. It explains the image quite well and even though
I can see the image straight infront of me it is still useful for me to
know the title. It tells me: this is Mark and his cat. The name of the
cat doesn't seem to be important, nor the name of the sea. 

"Photo taken in Sydney on the 12th March 2004" on the other hand is
information I would rather put into the content of the site, as it is
describing the image, but it is not really the "title" of the image. But
that's just me and other people might do it differently.

I'd be interested to see what people would do with an image of Yves
Klein "Monochrome Blue":
http://www.artzine-journal.com/3rd_Issue/Source/arabsten.html
I would love to see the ALT tag and TITLE of that one. :) 

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Re: [WSG] IE Error :S

[Chris Stratford]

Ahh thanks a lot :)
Cook, Graham R wrote:
Nest your content and foot_nav divs in a containing div which has it's
css set to float:left. This works in IE and FF, have not tested in other
browsers
Graham Cook
Standards Manager - Content Integrity
Data & Online
Telstra Technology
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Stratford
Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2004 9:23 AM
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] IE Error :S
Hey WSG,
Just have a problem with IE and this page:
http://inspiro.neester.com/index.html
I cant get it to show on my version of IE - and my client has given me
this screenshot:
http://inspiro.neester.com/media/error.jpg
I know the page doesn't validate - which is odd...
It sees the javascript and thinks its an error...
I didn't think this was meant to happen - doesnt the wc3 validator 
realise that it is only javascript, not xhtml??

Cheers group!
 


--

Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.neester.com

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RE: [WSG] IE Error :S

[Cook, Graham R]

Nest your content and foot_nav divs in a containing div which has it's
css set to float:left. This works in IE and FF, have not tested in other
browsers

Graham Cook


Standards Manager - Content Integrity
Data & Online
Telstra Technology
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Stratford
Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2004 9:23 AM
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] IE Error :S

Hey WSG,

Just have a problem with IE and this page:
http://inspiro.neester.com/index.html

I cant get it to show on my version of IE - and my client has given me
this screenshot:
http://inspiro.neester.com/media/error.jpg


I know the page doesn't validate - which is odd...
It sees the javascript and thinks its an error...

I didn't think this was meant to happen - doesnt the wc3 validator 
realise that it is only javascript, not xhtml??

Cheers group!

-- 

Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.neester.com


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Re: [WSG] alt or title...

[Mark Stanton]

Putting on my semantic nit picker hat.

http://mark.gruden.com/WE04/WSGTalk-slide-12.htm
http://mark.gruden.com/WE04/WSGTalk-slide-13.htm

alt and title are different. alt is there to express the meaning of
the image when the image is NOT visible, when the image is visible alt
is completely redundant. alt does NOT provide additional information -
in theory it should provide the same information in an alternate
(text) form.

The title is there to provide supplementary/additional information,
over and above what the image expresses.

Whether there is a link around the image or not has no bearing on
this. alt is required on images and title is optional but often
useful. A title on the link should provide additional information
about the link, not the image.

So for example:



What users agents do with that information, how it is presented in
IE5, Opera or XYZ browser has nothing to do with the semantic purpose
of these attributes. Getting these two issues (semantic meaning and
real world implementations) confused or discussing them as if they
were one issue just creates a stack of confusion.

The spec says: "Values of the title attribute may be rendered by user
agents in a variety of ways".

The title attribute != tool tip, a tool tip is one common way of
representing a title attribute.

Back in my box until friday night now...

-- 
Mark Stanton 
Gruden Pty Ltd 
http://www.gruden.com
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Re: [WSG] splash pages -[was site check please - an illustrated novel ]

[Lars-Helge Wilbrandt]

designer schrieb:
Thanks Will, but all those validation errors are because of using Flash -
there is no way to use Flash 'properly' and get the thing to validate  (all
the workarounds have problems, as I understand it). Outrageous, but there ye
go! :-)
There is an article about standards compliant embedding flash on
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/
Maybe it helps.
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Re: [WSG] IE Error :S

[Chris Stratford]

Ahh I see it now.
If you set your browser to FULL SCREEN then its fine.
But if its in window mode it screws up...
Any ideas?
Thanks again mark :)
Wybrow, Mark wrote:
Hello ...
Sorry -  Are you talking about the float error ? or a js error [which I
don't see] ... if my browser is width is less than 699px the layout
works .. iif it is over You get the screen shot your client sent you
 However this is only on that page the rest of the site is OK
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Stratford
Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2004 9:23 AM
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] IE Error :S
Hey WSG,
Just have a problem with IE and this page:
http://inspiro.neester.com/index.html
I cant get it to show on my version of IE - and my client has given me
this screenshot:
http://inspiro.neester.com/media/error.jpg
I know the page doesn't validate - which is odd...
It sees the javascript and thinks its an error...
I didn't think this was meant to happen - doesnt the wc3 validator
realise that it is only javascript, not xhtml??
Cheers group!
--

Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.neester.com

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you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. Please 
note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the 
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--

Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.neester.com

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Re: [WSG] IE Error :S

[Chris Stratford]

Hey Mark...
The problem is that floating error - but i cant validate the site 
because of the validators error i get with the javascript...
If you get my drift
I want to finger the error - but i cant use the validators because they 
keep snagging my hacked up version of the suckerfish

Thanks for the reply - and I still cant see that error and I am on 1400*1000
Wybrow, Mark wrote:
Hello ...
Sorry -  Are you talking about the float error ? or a js error [which I
don't see] ... if my browser is width is less than 699px the layout
works .. iif it is over You get the screen shot your client sent you
 However this is only on that page the rest of the site is OK
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Stratford
Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2004 9:23 AM
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] IE Error :S
Hey WSG,
Just have a problem with IE and this page:
http://inspiro.neester.com/index.html
I cant get it to show on my version of IE - and my client has given me
this screenshot:
http://inspiro.neester.com/media/error.jpg
I know the page doesn't validate - which is odd...
It sees the javascript and thinks its an error...
I didn't think this was meant to happen - doesnt the wc3 validator
realise that it is only javascript, not xhtml??
Cheers group!
--

Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.neester.com

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you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. Please 
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should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The 
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--

Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.neester.com

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RE: [WSG] IE Error :S

[Wybrow, Mark]

Hello ...
Sorry -  Are you talking about the float error ? or a js error [which I
don't see] ... if my browser is width is less than 699px the layout
works .. iif it is over You get the screen shot your client sent you
 However this is only on that page the rest of the site is OK

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Stratford
Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2004 9:23 AM
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] IE Error :S

Hey WSG,

Just have a problem with IE and this page:
http://inspiro.neester.com/index.html

I cant get it to show on my version of IE - and my client has given me
this screenshot:
http://inspiro.neester.com/media/error.jpg


I know the page doesn't validate - which is odd...
It sees the javascript and thinks its an error...

I didn't think this was meant to happen - doesnt the wc3 validator
realise that it is only javascript, not xhtml??

Cheers group!

--

Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.neester.com


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This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended 
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you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. Please 
note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the 
author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient 
should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The 
company accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by 
this email.

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[WSG] IE Error :S

[Chris Stratford]

Hey WSG,
Just have a problem with IE and this page:
http://inspiro.neester.com/index.html
I cant get it to show on my version of IE - and my client has given me 
this screenshot:
http://inspiro.neester.com/media/error.jpg

I know the page doesn't validate - which is odd...
It sees the javascript and thinks its an error...
I didn't think this was meant to happen - doesnt the wc3 validator 
realise that it is only javascript, not xhtml??

Cheers group!
--

Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.neester.com

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Re: [WSG] alt or title...

[Andreas Boehmer]

> 
> On 8 dec 2004, at 21.20, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote:
> >>
> >
> > It's good practise to have the title attribute also on images (in  
> > addition
> > to the ALT), as some browsers won't display the ALT Text as a tooltip.
> 
> alt = alternative text, used as a replacement _when the image can't be  
> displayed_.
> 
> title = additional information. Use this when you want a tooltip  
> (though there is no requirement for browsers to display title text as  
> tooltips)
> 
> In some rare cases having the same text for both the alt and title  
> attributes may be useful, but most of the time it isn't.

Okay, let's rephrase my original statement:

"It's good practise to have the title attribute also on images, as they
will show up as tooltips in most browsers and can provide users with
additional information about the image."

Whether the title is the same as the ALT or different depends on the
situation, as long as both of them do their duty in providing the user
with appropriate information in the individual circumstances in which
they are visible to the user (image-not-displayed or tooltip). I guess
in my experience the title and ALT just happen to be very similar most
of the time, as they fulfil similar roles: provide additional
information about the image.

Does that sound better?


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Re: [WSG] alt or title...

[Natalie Buxton]

My alt tag is usualy descriptive - "two oranges sitting on a brown
table" vs my title tag which is the name I've given the image "oranges
et duo" or something.

I expect the alt text only to be needed if the image is not displayed
for some reason, as per the definition for alternate tag.

I almost always set both for things like images accompanying a story,
or photographs. But for other images, like navbars, decorations etc I
only set the alt, and only if necessary.


On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 07:48:35 +1100, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > -Original Message-
> 
> 
> > From: Patrick H. Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2004 7:31 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: [WSG] alt or title...
> >
> >
> > Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote:
> > > It's good practise to have the title attribute also on images
> > (in addition
> > > to the ALT), as some browsers won't display the ALT Text as a tooltip.
> >
> > Well, ALT is by definition an ALTernate. The fact that all browsers in
> > the past
> > chose to also show ALT as a tooltip is not really a reason to double it up
> > with a title. In some situations, I can see why you may want to
> > do this, but
> > I wouldn't say it should be seen as a rule or anything.
> >
> 
> I agree it doesn't have to be a rule. But if we consider that the ALT tag
> should contain a description of the image, it sometimes is very useful for
> users to see that description in combination with the image. And many users
> are quite accustomed to moving the mouse over an image to check the tooltip.
> Quite often I will make the Title and the ALT slightly different though: the
> ALT may contain information that, if you see the photo, is redundant. The
> title just holds a little extra for the user to see in combination with the
> image.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 


-- 
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www.nataliebuxton.com
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[WSG] Word - Accessible Forms

[Phillips, Wendy]

 
Looking for references on making Word forms accessible. 

Thanks!

Wendy Phillips
Telstra Job Ready L&D 
Customer Sales & Service
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Re: [WSG] Wellington WSG meeting

[Terrence Wood]

I'll put something on my site. It's meant to have a blog there already, 
but you know how it is a builder's house, a mechanic's car, a 
designers site ;-)

So check in tomorrow at some stage.
http://funkive.com
Terrence Wood.

On 2004-12-09 8:42 AM, Joseph Lindsay wrote:
This probably goes without saying, but I'll ask anyway just in case
it's overlooked:
Can someone who's going to the Wellington meeting tonight please
blog/record happennings so that those of us that can't attend can find
out what went on?  Photos if appropriate (or incrimanating) would be
good too ;-)
Thanks
Joe
--
"You know you've achieved perfection in design, not when you have 
nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away." 
-Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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RE: [WSG] alt or title...

[Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]]

> -Original Message-
> From: Patrick H. Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2004 7:31 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [WSG] alt or title...
>
>
> Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote:
> > It's good practise to have the title attribute also on images
> (in addition
> > to the ALT), as some browsers won't display the ALT Text as a tooltip.
>
> Well, ALT is by definition an ALTernate. The fact that all browsers in
> the past
> chose to also show ALT as a tooltip is not really a reason to double it up
> with a title. In some situations, I can see why you may want to
> do this, but
> I wouldn't say it should be seen as a rule or anything.
>

I agree it doesn't have to be a rule. But if we consider that the ALT tag
should contain a description of the image, it sometimes is very useful for
users to see that description in combination with the image. And many users
are quite accustomed to moving the mouse over an image to check the tooltip.
Quite often I will make the Title and the ALT slightly different though: the
ALT may contain information that, if you see the photo, is redundant. The
title just holds a little extra for the user to see in combination with the
image.


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Re: [WSG] alt or title...

[Roger Johansson]

On 8 dec 2004, at 21.20, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote:

It's good practise to have the title attribute also on images (in  
addition
to the ALT), as some browsers won't display the ALT Text as a tooltip.
alt = alternative text, used as a replacement _when the image can't be  
displayed_.

title = additional information. Use this when you want a tooltip  
(though there is no requirement for browsers to display title text as  
tooltips)

In some rare cases having the same text for both the alt and title  
attributes may be useful, but most of the time it isn't.

As for browsers displaying alt text as tooltips, as far as I know, IE  
Win is the only reasonably recent browser to stubbornly still do so.

Here's a longer discussion on this:
<   
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200412/ 
the_alt_and_title_attributes/ >

/Roger
--
http://www.456bereastreet.com/
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Re: [WSG] alt or title...

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote:
It's good practise to have the title attribute also on images (in addition
to the ALT), as some browsers won't display the ALT Text as a tooltip.
Well, ALT is by definition an ALTernate. The fact that all browsers in 
the past
chose to also show ALT as a tooltip is not really a reason to double it up
with a title. In some situations, I can see why you may want to do this, but
I wouldn't say it should be seen as a rule or anything.

--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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Re: [WSG] Wellington WSG meeting

[russ - maxdesign]

> Perhaps its time to get an Auckland WSG meeting going...

Well... If Wellington is anything to go on (with what looks to be 60 or more
rsvp's) then there is definitely interest in web standards in NZ.

So, if anyone is interested in starting up Auckland WSG meetings (or WSG
meetings in any other City for that matter) let me know off-list
Thanks
Russ

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RE: [WSG] alt or title...

[Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]]

> -Original Message-
> From: Lea de Groot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, 8 December 2004 11:33 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [WSG] alt or title...
>
>
> On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:06:52 +1100, Brett Walsh wrote:
> > I am using the strict dtd so as far as I understand I'm meant
> to use alt for
> > links and title for images. Or is it the other way around? Or both?
>
> The other way around - the alt attribute goes on the img tag, to
> provide some information when the image isnt available (eg screen
> readers, text browsers). The alt attribute is required on img tags, but
> may be blank if the image is purely decorative.
> The title attribute goes on the anchor tag, and is optional. It is to
> provide additional information on the link, over and above what appears
> in the link text.

It's good practise to have the title attribute also on images (in addition
to the ALT), as some browsers won't display the ALT Text as a tooltip.


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Re: [WSG] Wellington WSG meeting

[Darren Wood]

Joseph Lindsay wrote:
This probably goes without saying, but I'll ask anyway just in case
it's overlooked:
Can someone who's going to the Wellington meeting tonight please
blog/record happennings so that those of us that can't attend can find
out what went on?  Photos if appropriate (or incrimanating) would be
good too ;-)
Thanks
Joe
Excellent idea Joe!  Us JAFAs would like to check out the goings on...
Perhaps its time to get an Auckland WSG meeting going...
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[WSG] Re: Standard for text email newsletters

[Laura Carlson]

I've been using the TEN format as a navigation aid for screenreaders in 
my Web Design Update Newsletter for over two and a half years now. All 
user feedback has been positive.

Some comments from subscribers regarding what they like about the TEN 
format:

- "Attention to accessible-friendliness"
- "Clearly distinguished separate sections and articles"
- "Summary of contents at the top of each issue"
- "Attention to accessibility issues"
- "Spacing between the heading and articles"
- "Consistency and clear writing"
- "Organization and format"
- "The simplicity"
- "Easy navigation through each issue"
To date I haven't received any negative feedback.
Web designers and developers are invited to join the webdev listserv 
and receive the Web Design Update. For information on how to subscribe 
visit:

http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdevlist
Laura
___
Laura L. Carlson
Information Technology Systems and Services
University of Minnesota Duluth
Duluth, MN, U.S.A. 55812-3009
http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdesign/
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[WSG] splash pages -[was site check please - an illustrated novel ]

[designer]

Thanks Will, but all those validation errors are because of using Flash -
there is no way to use Flash 'properly' and get the thing to validate  (all
the workarounds have problems, as I understand it). Outrageous, but there ye
go! :-)

Thanks for your thoughts.

Tom (and Will) - I will bear all this about the splash pages in mind - it's
what the client wanted, but I could talk him out of it . . .(Actually, I
hate the page with the record . . .   :-)

The first page is used to hide the counter etc, but also uses a dom sniffer
to direct the user automatically to the 'right' files for his environment. I
suppose this could go on the final 'page one' but I don't like the flash
that sometimes occurs on slow connections as the page changes form the
standards one to the v3 browser one. It almost looks presentable, even in
NN4!

MMmmm.

Thanks.

Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk



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[WSG] Wellington WSG meeting

[Joseph Lindsay]

This probably goes without saying, but I'll ask anyway just in case
it's overlooked:

Can someone who's going to the Wellington meeting tonight please
blog/record happennings so that those of us that can't attend can find
out what went on?  Photos if appropriate (or incrimanating) would be
good too ;-)

Thanks

Joe

-- 
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants
 -- Sir Isaac Newton

http://josephlindsay.com/
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Re: [WSG] color: inherit;?

[Terrence Wood]

AFAIK it's ok. You can also use transparent if you don't want a 
background color.

Terrence Wood.
On 2004-12-09 8:08 AM, Lee Underwood wrote:
I know that if you declare the background-color, you also declare the 
color (and vice-versa). Is it o.k. to use "color: inherit;" for the 
color when you are declaring the background-color? If not, then what is 
a good way to do it?

Thanks!
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[WSG] color: inherit;?

[Lee Underwood]

I know that if you declare the background-color, you also declare the color 
(and vice-versa). Is it o.k. to use "color: inherit;" for the color when 
you are declaring the background-color? If not, then what is a good way to 
do it?

Thanks!
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Re: [WSG] site check please - an illustrated novel

[Will Jensen]

Bob,

Purely from the aesthetics level.

Drop the entire first page - or two - The very first one blinked on my screen for perhaps 3 seconds and was gone. The second was the spinning record. The main window - number three, is where I should land right off - no other pages between me and your main menu.

I suggest using the record in the main page (after dropping the first two pages). The record meaning is clear. As for the rear view mirror scene - I can understand it might be a visual reminder of the "reflective" character of the novel. Use it on a further page -perhaps on the "introduction" page instead of the animated pen-hand.

Overall - I really like the uncluttered appearance. Download was speedy - no hassle at all.

You may have a multitude of issues to contend with in the illustrated section. The disabilities act insists blind folks should have ready access. Have you thought that through yet? There are some previous discussions in the e-mail archives at WSG.

I went to the validator of w3c using XHTML transitional.

Here's the abbreviated error listing from the W3C validator for the 'record' page:

1.Line 32, column 179: there is no attribute "NAME"

2.Line 34, column 37: required attribute "TYPE" not specified

3.  	Line 41, column 40: required attribute "TYPE" not specified

4.  	Line 45, column 37: required attribute "TYPE" not specified

5.  	Line 48, column 17: document type does not allow element "NOSCRIPT" here; missing one of "APPLET", "OBJECT", "MAP", "IFRAME", "BUTTON" start-tag

6.  	Line 50, column 49: cannot generate system identifier for general entity "j"

7.  	Line 50, column 49: general entity "j" not defined and no default entity

8.  	Line 50, column 50: reference to entity "j" for which no system identifier could be generated

9.  	Line 50, column 48: entity was defined here

The validator then read: http://www.treyarnon.fsworld.co.uk/openingpage/opening.html and lists 7 errors that focus on the 'content' section near bottom of the XHTML page code for the flash movie:

1.  	Line 82, column 19: there is no attribute "src"

2.  	Line 82, column 43: there is no attribute "quality"

3.  	Line 82, column 62: there is no attribute "pluginspage"

4.  	Line 82, column 113: there is no attribute "type"

5.  	Line 82, column 151: there is no attribute "width"

6.  	Line 82, column 164: there is no attribute "height"

7.  	Line 82, column 169: element "embed" undefined

Will Jensen
Moscow, Russia
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



On Dec 8, 2004, at 5:08 PM, Tom Livingston wrote:

Hello,

My only beef with this site is you seem to have *two* splash pages. One is bad enough...

Tom Livingston
Senior Multimedia Artist
mlinc.com




designer wrote:
Hi All,
I would be grateful for any and all feedback on a redesign I've done for a
site which presents an illustrated novel.  Some of it is a weeny bit hybrid,
but (a small amount of flash aside) it all validates as xhtml and
presentational matter is down to an absolute minimum.  I have not done
anything with the 'illustrations' section, as it needs a complete rewrite.
At the moment it can be seen at www.treyarnon.com - any helpful (or even
rude :-) comments welcome.
Thanks,
Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] Screenreader for Mac OS X

[Terrence Wood]

No there isn't. But the next release of of OS X will have one built in:
http://www.apple.com/accessibility/voiceover/
Terrence Wood.
Jorge Laranjo wrote:
But i don't know of any screenreader for MAC OS X. Is there any?

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Re: [WSG] site check please - an illustrated novel

[Tom Livingston]

Hello,
My only beef with this site is you seem to have *two* splash pages. One 
is bad enough...

Tom Livingston
Senior Multimedia Artist
mlinc.com

designer wrote:
 Hi All,
I would be grateful for any and all feedback on a redesign I've done for a
site which presents an illustrated novel.  Some of it is a weeny bit hybrid,
but (a small amount of flash aside) it all validates as xhtml and
presentational matter is down to an absolute minimum.  I have not done
anything with the 'illustrations' section, as it needs a complete rewrite.
At the moment it can be seen at www.treyarnon.com - any helpful (or even
rude :-) comments welcome.
Thanks,
Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
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[WSG] Screenreader for Mac OS X

[Jorge Laranjo]

I there folks.
I'm developing websites using only CSS and XHTML.
What i want now is a good screenreader to test my own sites, like 
http://www.estacaoshopping.com.pt/
This are the browsers that i use to test them:
* Safari
* Firefox
* Opera
* Omni
* Links and Lynx for text mode
* Internet Explorer

But i don't know of any screenreader for MAC OS X. Is there any?
--
Best regards,
Jorge Laranjo
site > http://lesi.host.sk/fueg0/
msn > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
aim > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
jabber > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] alt or title...

[Kornel Lesinski]

 alt attribute is for some elements (images, buttons), that might not be  
fully rendered by  browsers. should be visible only when element itself is  
not shown.

 title attribute is for almost every element in html. it is supposed to  
give additional information. optionally visible, usually as a tooltip or  
on status bar.

 
 
 WWW

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Re: [WSG] alt or title...

[Chris Platts]

On 8 Dec 2004, at 12:06, Brett Walsh wrote:
I keep forgetting and need some clarification on the use of alt and 
title
and which is most appropriate.

I am using the strict dtd so as far as I understand I'm meant to use 
alt for links and title for images. Or is it the other way around? Or 
both?

Fairly simple one. Is this correct?
Hi Brett,
The 'alt' attribute should be used as a text alternative for replaced 
elements, such as images. This is for user agents which do not display 
images such as text browsers, browsers with images disabled, speech 
browsers, screen readers. It should typically provide a very brief 
description of the image, or - if the image conveys textual information 
- reiterate what the image text says. If an image is purely for layout 
or decoration the alt text should be an empty string, ie alt="" (a null 
string, not a space).

The title attribute provides a description of, or some brief 
informative text about, an element. It is often used on images and 
links as many browsers display it as a 'tooltip', but it can be applied 
to *any* element.

If more information about an image (or any other element) is required 
then the 'longdesc' attribute can be used, containing the URL of the 
document containing the information, however browser support is poor.

Chris
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RE: [WSG] alt or title...

[Brett Walsh]

ok I will jot that one down. That article at beras street was nice and
helpful.

I was getting confused as the validator was complaining about no alt on
links for strict dtd. Thx all of you.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lea de Groot
Sent: Wednesday, 8 December 2004 11:33 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] alt or title...

On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:06:52 +1100, Brett Walsh wrote:
> I am using the strict dtd so as far as I understand I'm meant to use alt
for
> links and title for images. Or is it the other way around? Or both?

The other way around - the alt attribute goes on the img tag, to 
provide some information when the image isnt available (eg screen 
readers, text browsers). The alt attribute is required on img tags, but 
may be blank if the image is purely decorative.
The title attribute goes on the anchor tag, and is optional. It is to 
provide additional information on the link, over and above what appears 
in the link text.

HIH
Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet 
Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web 
Design
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] alt or title...

[Lea de Groot]

On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:06:52 +1100, Brett Walsh wrote:
> I am using the strict dtd so as far as I understand I'm meant to use alt for
> links and title for images. Or is it the other way around? Or both?

The other way around - the alt attribute goes on the img tag, to 
provide some information when the image isnt available (eg screen 
readers, text browsers). The alt attribute is required on img tags, but 
may be blank if the image is purely decorative.
The title attribute goes on the anchor tag, and is optional. It is to 
provide additional information on the link, over and above what appears 
in the link text.

HIH
Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet 
Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web 
Design
Brisbane, Australia
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RE: [WSG] alt or title...

[Iain Gardiner]

Title: Message



Personally, I tend towards using title for links to give surfers an idea 
where the link is taking them.  I use both on images.  I use the web 
developer extension for Firefox on my own site at the moment for highlighting 
any links which I have neglected to add a title attribute to and amending 
it.
 
Iain
-- Iain Gardiner http://www.firelightning.com 


  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  Brett WalshSent: 08 December 2004 12:07To: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] alt or 
  title...
  
   
  
  Hey everyone.
   
  I keep forgetting and need some 
  clarification on the use of alt and title and which is most 
  appropriate.
   
  I am using the strict dtd so as 
  far as I understand I’m meant to use alt for links and title for images. Or is 
  it the other way around? Or both?
   
  Fairly simple one. Is this 
  correct?
   
  Regards,
   
  Brett 
Walsh

Re: [WSG] alt or title...

[Daniel Kling]

Am Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:06:52 +1100 schrieb Brett Walsh  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

Hey everyone.
I keep forgetting and need some clarification on the use of alt and title
and which is most appropriate.
I am using the strict dtd so as far as I understand I'm meant to use alt  
for
links and title for images. Or is it the other way around? Or both?

Fairly simple one. Is this correct?
Regards,
Brett Walsh
This link should help you:
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200412/the_alt_and_title_attributes/

--
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[WSG] alt or title...

[Brett Walsh]

 



Hey everyone.

 

I keep forgetting and need some clarification on the use of
alt and title and which is most appropriate.

 

I am using the strict dtd so as far as I understand I’m
meant to use alt for links and title for images. Or is it the other way around?
Or both?

 

Fairly simple one. Is this correct?



 

Regards,

 

Brett Walsh

[WSG] FW: Text email newsletter standard

[Patrick Lauke]

Sorry to cross-post my reply, but:

From: Lauke Patrick 
Sent: 08 December 2004 11:17
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Text email newsletter standard

> From: Mike Brown

> has anyone come across, or used, the following text email newsletter 
> standard:
> http://www.headstar.com/ten/

Yes, stumbled across it a while ago
http://www.accessify.com/archives/2004_08_15_news-archives.asp#109274881113692102

> If so, or even if you haven't but are able to look through, 
> how useful 
> do you think it is?

At its essence, it tries to add structural information of sorts to an 
inherently un-structured medium, plain text. I'll admit that I don't use it and 
haven't heard any user feedback about it, but I'd say that it's an interesting 
idea, as long as it's used consistently. However, I'm intrigued as to their 
decision to call it a "standard".

> Would the points outlined in the standard aid 
> accessibility?

Insofar as it adds pseudo-structural information, it's certainly useful to a 
certain extent. However, to my knowledge there are no tools that would then 
allow users to extract (or otherwise take advantage of) this structural 
information, which limits TEN's usefulness.

Oh, I see it's been mentioned on this list before and there are some very good 
points made in Jon Hanna's reply.
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2004AprJun/0015.html

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

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[WSG] site check please - an illustrated novel

[designer]

 Hi All,

I would be grateful for any and all feedback on a redesign I've done for a
site which presents an illustrated novel.  Some of it is a weeny bit hybrid,
but (a small amount of flash aside) it all validates as xhtml and
presentational matter is down to an absolute minimum.  I have not done
anything with the 'illustrations' section, as it needs a complete rewrite.

At the moment it can be seen at www.treyarnon.com - any helpful (or even
rude :-) comments welcome.

Thanks,

Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk

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[WSG] Vertical shadows div has no height in FF but does in IE

[Steven Clark]

I've been slowly chipping away at this site
   Site: http://www.blog.lindenlangdon.com
   CSS: http://www.blog.lindenlangdon.com/stylesheets/default.css
  http://www.blog.lindenlangdon.com/stylesheets/styles.css
  http://www.blog.lindenlangdon.com/stylesheets/links.css
The default sheet only gives old browsers stuff they need (needs work) and 
links is only the nav bars and links. So the problem is in styles.css.

My problem is that I've used two wrapper divs to put a shadow down both 
sides of the maincontainer div as 1px vertically repeated images. Works fine 
in IE but I can't seem to get a toe in on getting the dynamic height 
required for Firefox to handle it right. I need the wrapper divs to expand 
with the other content because of text resizing and constant adding of 
content.

Photos were by the artist by the way.
If anyone could steer me to a better idea of what the issue is I'd be a much 
better sleeper for sure..
Signed cold, bloody and with a runny nose
Norty Pig

http://www.nortypig.com
http://www.blog.nortypig.com
_
More computer for your money. Hot deals from Dell!  
http://clk.atdmt.com/EUR/go/nnmsndel001099eur/direct/01/

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Re: [WSG] DOM and Standard

[James Denholm-Price]

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 16:33:27 -0500, berry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks, but I already found this link.  What I was looking for was theory.

I'd heartily recommend the O'Reilly "JavaScript: The Definitive
Reference" by David Flanagan -- it has a good section on HTML4 events
as well as DOM (Gecko) and IE event models.

James
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Re: [WSG] Firefox screen-reader emulator

[Kornel Lesinski]

Do any of these, or any others for that matter, support aural style  
sheets?
from that list, emacSpeak only, unless things have changed recently...
Opera 7.60 for Windows has support for voice xml and some aural styles.
The software:
http://snapshot.opera.com
Docs and tutorials:
http://my.opera.com/community/dev/voice/
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