[WSG] Problem with floating heights

[adam]

Ive made a little demo site, that shows my problem clearly
http://www.tres.dk/test

I want the container div to follow the heights of the floating elements,
#left and #right
In Internet Explorer it does, but not in Firefox, Opera, Safair or any
other browser.
The height is 100% as default right ? so that’s not the case here. The
margin is 0px also.
Does anyone knows what needs to be done ?

Adam DK


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Quirks mode vs Standards mode

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote:
I am interested in people's thoughts about using "quirks mode" (ie
adding  before the doctype) vs
"standards mode".
Think we had a similar discussion a few months back...
It is recommended to use the "xml-prolog" with xhtml1.0, and it _is
only_ IE6 that gets thrown into quirks mode by it (or anything up there
above the DTD).
xhtml1.1 and upwards doesn't give us much choice, and IE/win doesn't see
such pages when they are properly served anyway -- but that's another
matter.
What do most people use?
Me: IE6 in quirks mode always - unless I'm testing its "not very
standard mode".
Which option requires *less* css hacks, and is *more* standards
compliant across the widest range of modern browsers?
Having IE6 in quirks mode requires less hacks and adjustments for ALL
IE/win versions. All standard-compliant browsers are in standard mode
anyway if the are fed proper code and the correct DocTypeDeclaration.
IE6 can't do anything in "standard mode" that it can't do in quirks
mode. It just do it differently. What IE6 doesn't have -- it doesn't
have in either mode.
IE6' "standard mode" is a mess, when compared to Op, Moz/FF, Saf &
others. Many of the differences disappears into thin air when IE6 is in
quirks mode, and there are only minor adjustments left.
IE7 next...
regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] newspaper format

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Bob,

Looks good on Mac (OSX 10.3.8 15 inch G4 PowerBook Firefox / Safari)
and PC (XP Firefox / IE).  3 col xhtml  is tricky, I know!

In case you are interested in an actual 3 column newspaper website in
xhtml check out the San Francisco Examiner at
http://www.sfexaminer.com/ .

Good Luck,
Brian

On 4/14/05, designer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Guys and gals,
> 
> I have been trying to present the information relating to a novel in a more
> interesting style than 'just text' or indeed three columns, and have
> experimented with a sort of newspaper style. The newspaper is a fictitious
> one which is mentioned often in the novel, and my effort can be seen
> (in isolation from the rest of the site) at:
> 
> http://www.treyarnon.fsworld.co.uk/bren/newspaper/news.html
> 
> The original design I produced and am modifying can be seen at
> www.novelnovella.com .
> 
> I have used floats (of course!) and the 'layout is supposed to work like:
> 
> banner
> header
> leftcol   rightcol
> banner
> leftcol rightcol
> etc
> 
> I would be most grateful for any general feedback : does it work as a
> design? Does it work (esp on MAC) as it's supposed to?  Is there anything
> glaringly bad about it? You get the idea. It works for me in FF1.0, IE6,
> IE5.5, Opera 7, all on PC.
> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> Bob McClelland,
> Cornwall (U.K.)
> www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
> 
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
> 


-- 
Brian Ussery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

b e ussery imagery co.
http://www.beussery.com
706.296.3446
905.935.4396f

be unlimited!
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

[InfoForce Services \(Angus MacKinnon\)]

This brings up a question. How effective are Skip navigation links? I have 
heard that half the people do not understand what skip navigation links are. 
I design web sites to get to the main content or with very few links until 
the main content.

Angus MacKinnon
MacKinnon Crest Saying
Latin -  Audentes Fortuna Juvat
English - Fortune Assists The Daring
Web page: http://members.shaw.ca/dabneyadfm
Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc.
http://www.choroideremia.org
Advocates for Sight Impaired Consumers (ASIC)
http://www.asic.bc.cx


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] Housekeeping [ADMIN]

[Peter Firminger]

Hi,

Getting a few complaints lately about useless traffic and untrimmed posts.

If your answer to a post is "Looks fine on mine" or "Thanks for the help" then 
please post it directly to the sender rather than the list. 1600+ other people 
really don't need to see it.

I can't tell you how on every mail client but as far as I know you can get the 
posters direct address from the "From" address. In Outlook it is shown as:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Peter Firminger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

and by double clicking "Peter Firminger" you are given the address in a 
dialogue box to copy.

The alternative is for me to set the list to "Reply to sender" instead of 
"Reply to list" but that would be more painful for everyone replying and would 
mean some of the great advice didn't get to everyone so please think about it 
when replying.

Please trim all previous unrelated material (including the WSG footer and 
peoples signatures) from a post when answering. Just keep what is absolutely 
necessary for context.

Please try and remember to send plain text emails rather than HTML emails to 
the list.

For those that keep asking, to unsubscribe (delete your membership) log in to 
http://webstandardsgroup.org/ and use the link "Unsubscribe - Delete 
Membership". If you abandon your login email address (change jobs etc.) please 
delete your membership and resubscribe under your new address.

Please don't write to me asking to unsubscribe you.

To change which lists you are on (WSG, CMS and their digest versions) use the 
link "Edit your login details and mail list subscriptions". Use this option 
when you are going on leave (vacation) and are setting a Vacation Message and 
set both lists to "No Mail". You will still get infrequent messages from the 
Announce list which all members are subscribed to.

If you stop getting WSG mail it is likely that your emails have been bouncing 
and we have set you to No Mail, you may see an error message in the "Note to 
member" field. Please deal with the cause of the error before resubscribing to 
the list.

The digest versions (in a lot of mail clients) suck. We know and there's 
nothing we can do about it at this stage.

If you use SpamArrest to filter your emails, please use another email address 
for your WSG membership. SpamArrest are proven spammers and you DO NOT have 
the right to put other people's email addresses into their database. You may 
agree to their Terms of Service but I don't and you are violating my privacy 
by giving them my address.

Please reply off-list if you really need to, these are not topics for open 
discussion that will add to the traffic.

Regards,

Peter Firminger

***
http://webboy.net/
info@webboy.net
+612 49983388
+614 12932269
***


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] Quirks mode vs Standards mode

[Sarah Peeke (XERT)]

Hi all,

I am interested in people's thoughts about using "quirks mode" (ie adding  before the doctype) vs "standards mode".

What do most people use?

Which option requires *less* css hacks, and is *more* standards compliant 
across the widest range of
modern browsers?

Appreciate any feedback.

Thanks
Sarah
-- 
XERT Communications
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
office: +61 2 4782 3104
mobile: 0438 017 416

http://www.xert.com.au/   web development : digital imaging : dvd production
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Templates with Content at Top

[Paul Ross]

Looks fine on my iMac (OS X 10.2.8) and Firefox 1.0/Safari 1.0.3
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] Templates with Content at Top

[Richard Czeiger]

Hi all  :o)
 
Been messing around with templates. Standard column stuff, but 
with content at top in the HTML.
I've checked it out on PC in IE5.0, IE6.0, Opera7.0 and 
FireFox1.0 and it works a charm (pixel perfect!  :o).
Can you please test on Mac in FireFox and Safari and let me 
know how it goes?
 
With the 3 Column template I made a concenssion by putting the 
Content and the Right hand side column in a wrapper  thinking that 
semantically, the right hand side is usually related in some way to the content 
(but this is more a case of me convincing myself).
 
www.drunkmonkey.com.au/2col.html

www.drunkmonkey.com.au/3col.html
 
Anyway, thoughts would be appreciated.
Cheers  :o)
 
Richard

Re: [WSG] Client wants flashing text

[Rick Faaberg]

On 4/14/05 2:48 PM "Jeff Oien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:

> When a client wants some flashing text for emphasis,
> what do you do or tell them?

I've seen some fairly tasteful things done with Flash to provide visual
interest. Maybe something as simple as horizontal scroll or simple animation
in Flash would do?

Rick

Ps. Sorry for my outburst yesterday on the list re: javascript. I have no
excuse and I'll not repeat that behavior any time soon.

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

[Lea de Groot]

On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:03:50 +1200, Ben Wrighton wrote:
> What if a physically disabled site visitor loads the page, doesn't see the
> [skip nav], thinks "bugger this" and leaves before tabbing? Especially if
> the site's home page does not contain an accessibility statement.

And the obvious solution would be to ensure there is a link to the 
accessability statement on the front (and indeed each) page?

It would be nice to think that, assuming the 'skip link becomes visible 
on tab' approach works, that it will become common and  users will 
become accustomed to hitting the tab key to see if they get to that 
something extra that is there just for them.

IMHO
Lea
~ looking for a permanent position in Brisbane - please contact me for 
CV
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet 
Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web 
Design
Brisbane, Australia
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

[Richard Czeiger]

I accept the point, Russ.

However, on a practical level, the concern that Ben expressed regarding
accessibility compared to the importance of the content on the page is a
decision the users need to make all the time and one that doesn't usually
cost a lot:

"Interesting content... I guess I'll push through the site even though it
obviously isn't built for me."

vs

"I'm not even doing to bother looking at this site even though it might have
the answers I'm looking for".

For any web user (disabled or not) the second attitude isn't going to get
them very far. I'm hoping that if I build a site that features good
accessibility options then I will get people more people **preferring** to
use my site over others that may have similar content.

I've been following the Skip Link discussion because I find it to be a very
contentious issue. No one has seemed to come up with a 100% successful
answer that pleases everybody. My point is this: even **having** the Skip to
Content feature on the site in any form is a far sight better than not
having one. If it only works for blind users and not physically disabled
users, it's still better than sites that don't have one at all.

I dare say that there are more sites out there that don't have then than
those that do. Do visually or physically disabled people 'not bother' to
look at ALL those pages?

At the end of the day, we're still *trying* to get it right. It sometimes
feels as though we're being beaten over the head for not having everything
function perfectly for everybody - and I don't think we ever will (too many
different types of people, too diverse a range of technology).

It seems as though we should be giving a 'clap on the back' for those
developers that spend hours of their time *testing* all these ideas out with
the aim of making peoples lives better...

PS: Sorry about the soapbox - it's the end of the week and I needed to
vent...

R  :o)


- Original Message -
From: "russ - maxdesign" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Web Standards Group" 
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility


Richard, these are all good questions. The best thing to do as actually
observe real people (with disabilities) interacting with sites.

I have watched blind users and users with severe vision impairment who
become frustrated and leave sites very quickly. They are more likely to
struggle on if the information is very important or only available at one
particular site.

When David Woodbridge's was demonstrating a poorly built site to the WSG
last year he commented:
"I am doing this to demonstrate the problems. In real life I would never
really go this far into a site this bad, I would have left on the fist
page".

Think of it in other terms. If there was a shop with major physical barriers
(like being forced to climb a ladder just to get into the shop), and the
shop keeper was never available, would you hang around long? Compare that to
a shop nearby with easy access and friendly staff.

Russ



> Are users really *that* impatient? Does the physically disabled site user
> not even bother to see if the content on the page is worth-while? As a
> developer who believes in validation, would you not bother looking at a
page
> if you you didn't see a little xhtml link at the bottom?
>
> Should we bother to build site for people who don't bother to use them?
>
> Just a thought...
>
> And a reminder that we're after best practice within the contrainsts
> provided by the project and the technology, not a rigid, total and utter
> compliancy to every living mammal on the planet.
>
> R

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

[Patrick H. Lauke]

russ - maxdesign wrote:
I have watched blind users and users with severe vision impairment who
become frustrated and leave sites very quickly.
Even before  one or two tabs though?
--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Looking for some nicely designed web apps...

[David]

They mentioned basecamphq as something nice - Web apps like that ...
I know about stylegala and css vault , etc, etc...
More stuff like basecamphq is what Im after...
Thanks

Would help to know what type of web app you mean.
http://www.basecamphq.com/ is nice; http://www.blogger.com/ can be 
classed as a web app ...

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

[russ - maxdesign]

Richard, these are all good questions. The best thing to do as actually
observe real people (with disabilities) interacting with sites.

I have watched blind users and users with severe vision impairment who
become frustrated and leave sites very quickly. They are more likely to
struggle on if the information is very important or only available at one
particular site.

When David Woodbridge's was demonstrating a poorly built site to the WSG
last year he commented:
"I am doing this to demonstrate the problems. In real life I would never
really go this far into a site this bad, I would have left on the fist
page".

Think of it in other terms. If there was a shop with major physical barriers
(like being forced to climb a ladder just to get into the shop), and the
shop keeper was never available, would you hang around long? Compare that to
a shop nearby with easy access and friendly staff.

Russ



> Are users really *that* impatient? Does the physically disabled site user
> not even bother to see if the content on the page is worth-while? As a
> developer who believes in validation, would you not bother looking at a page
> if you you didn't see a little xhtml link at the bottom?
> 
> Should we bother to build site for people who don't bother to use them?
> 
> Just a thought...
> 
> And a reminder that we're after best practice within the contrainsts
> provided by the project and the technology, not a rigid, total and utter
> compliancy to every living mammal on the planet.
> 
> R

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

[Richard Czeiger]

Are users really *that* impatient? Does the physically disabled site user
not even bother to see if the content on the page is worth-while? As a
developer who believes in validation, would you not bother looking at a page
if you you didn't see a little xhtml link at the bottom?

Should we bother to build site for people who don't bother to use them?

Just a thought...

And a reminder that we're after best practice within the contrainsts
provided by the project and the technology, not a rigid, total and utter
compliancy to every living mammal on the planet.

R

- Original Message -
From: "Ben Wrighton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 9:03 AM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility


One small thing that bothers me with the tab to make skip nav visible
approach.

What if a physically disabled site visitor loads the page, doesn't see the
[skip nav], thinks "bugger this" and leaves before tabbing? Especially if
the site's home page does not contain an accessibility statement.

I'd like to know what a web savvy physically disabled person thinks about
this technique (which other that this small concern I really like).

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**




--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.11 - Release Date: 14/04/2005

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Ben Wrighton wrote:
What if a physically disabled site visitor loads the page, doesn't see the
[skip nav], thinks "bugger this" and leaves before tabbing? Especially if
the site's home page does not contain an accessibility statement.
That would probably depend on why they came to the site in the first 
place. Also, as most mainstream sites don't actually have anything like 
skip links, I fear they'd say "bugger it" quite often when going online...

--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

[Ben Wrighton]

One small thing that bothers me with the tab to make skip nav visible
approach.

What if a physically disabled site visitor loads the page, doesn't see the
[skip nav], thinks "bugger this" and leaves before tabbing? Especially if
the site's home page does not contain an accessibility statement.

I'd like to know what a web savvy physically disabled person thinks about
this technique (which other that this small concern I really like).

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**




-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.11 - Release Date: 14/04/2005

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] Looking for some nicely designed web apps...

[Devendra Shrikhande]

If you are looking for inspirational eye-candy that are also good example of 
coding:

http://www.webstandardsawards.com/

http://www.stylegala.com


¤ devendra ¤


David wrote:
> Been asked to do the front end visual design of a web app a local
> company is doing. Just looking for some great designs to get ideas from. 
> Any links appreciated.



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Looking for some nicely designed web apps...

[Patrick H. Lauke]

David wrote:
Been asked to do the front end visual design of a web app a local 
company is doing. Just looking for some great designs to get ideas from. 
Any links appreciated.
Would help to know what type of web app you mean.
http://www.basecamphq.com/ is nice; http://www.blogger.com/ can be 
classed as a web app ...

--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] Looking for some nicely designed web apps...

[David]

Been asked to do the front end visual design of a web app a local 
company is doing. Just looking for some great designs to get ideas from. 
Any links appreciated.

Thanks,
David
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote:
OK, I have now enabled full keyboard access (system preferences), but when I 
use the tab key in both
sites listed below nothing happens. It is only when I hover over the area where 
the navigation
should appear that each link appears.
I'm guessing it may be this:
"You need to change a setting in Safari for that. Go to preferences, 
then in the advanced tab change “do not highlight links as you press the 
Tab key” to “Highlight links as you press the Tab key”"

from 
http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/07/quiz-242-now-you-see-me-now-you-dont/#comment-156

--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] newspaper format

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Paul Novitski wrote:

You should avoid presentational class names. May be overkill, but 
possibly opt for something like class="firstsection"

--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Client wants flashing text

[Kornel Lesinski]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:48:28 +0100, Jeff Oien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
When a client wants some flashing text for emphasis,
what do you do or tell them?
That he's not a professional designer.
He has hired one that makes right decisions for him.
Blinking text is a step in that direction:
http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://www.tastydirt.com/zen/sample.css
but he'd probably prefer other zen garden styles :)
BTW: http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20030427
--
regards, Kornel Lesiński
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Client wants flashing text

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Jeff Oien wrote:
When a client wants some flashing text for emphasis,
what do you do or tell them?
a) it's not the 1991 anymore
b) it can cause seizures in users with photosensitive epilepsy
c) there are far better ways to add emphasis (most involving good 
design, creating visual hierarchies, etc)

--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] Client wants flashing text

[Jeff Oien]

When a client wants some flashing text for emphasis,
what do you do or tell them?
Jeff
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] implementing index and end-notes on the web

[Lea de Groot]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:46:10 -0700, Paul Novitski wrote:
> I'm converting a book to a website and am mulling over various ways 
> to implement the text, index, and end-notes in web-standards, 
> accessible XHTML and CSS, potentially with the aid of scripting.  I 
> welcome your feedback and links to existing examples on the net.

While I think the issues you are considering are more Information 
Architecture than Standards issues, the implementation can certainly be 
standards-based.
 
> 
> Index format
> 
> Here's an example of an index entry with both general page references 
> and three subentries:
> 
>   Carroll, Lewis, 40-50, 66
>  Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, 5, 24, 334
>  childhood, 12-17
>  Through the Looking-Glass, 23, 103, 334

My first thought is to put a name tag on each paragraph (I think it is 
only NN4 which doesn't handle this; in the unlikely event that this is 
a significant part of your user base you'd need to insert a named 
anchor tag instead)
Then have the numbers link through to those marked paras.
Exactly what the best item to display in the index is hard to say - 
paragraph number rather than the now irrelevent page number?
 
>   Carroll, Lewis, LINK, LINK
>  Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, LINK, LINK, LINK
>  childhood<--(itself a link)
>  Through the Looking-Glass, LINK, LINK

I would consistently place Anchors on the numbers after, rather 
sometimes on the word and sometimes on the index item

> In this latter model, does a range of instance numbers work for the 
> reader in the same way as a range of page numbers?

Yes, it would take them to the beginning of the instance and give them 
an indication of how long the tract is.
 
> ==
> End-notes:
> ==
> A problem related to indexing, but simpler, is that of end-notes or 
> footnotes.  Typically in print a footnote appears at the bottom of 
> the current page, whereas end-notes are clustered at the end of a 
> chapter or the book.

You have more options than this - consider ABBR and ACRONYM title 
attributes too for very short notes.
Also short paragraphs appearing and disappearing with javascript/css, 
inserted into the text appropriately.

HIH
Lea
~ looking for a permanent position in Brisbane - please contact me for 
CV
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet 
Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web 
Design
Brisbane, Australia
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Alistapart vs Digital-Web

[Lea de Groot]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:39:21 +0200, Piero Fissore wrote:
> Alistapart is a leader in wd on-line magazine. But what do you think about 
> www.digital-web.com ? It's growing everyday, 
> maybe the best navigation-system on the web, a nice approach to web design, 
> simple and complete.

I'm an inclusionist. I read both.
;)

Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet 
Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web 
Design
Brisbane, Australia
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] implementing index and end-notes on the web

[Juergen Auer]

On 14 Apr 2005 at 11:46, Paul Novitski wrote:

> I'm converting a book to a website and am mulling over various ways to 
> implement the text, index, and end-notes in web-standards, accessible XHTML 
> and CSS, potentially with the aid of scripting.

Hi Paul,

before doing all these later things I would create the source or a 
(test-) part of it as Xml-File with some new elements (footnote, 
endnote, word [Carol, L] which should be part of the index [Carroll, 
Lewis] and so on).

Later you can create different Xsl-Files to create different Html-
Outputs and test all these things.

So a single Xml-file holds the content, different Xsl-files are 
layers to produce different outputs. And if you want to test a new 
output you have only to change the Xsl-Transformation, not all the 
content.


Best Regards
Juergen Auer
http://www.sql-und-xml.de/

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Accessible dropdown menus

[Thierry Koblentz]

Roger Johansson wrote:
> * Semantic markup (i.e. nested unordered lists)
> * Graceful degradation when support for CSS and/or JavaScript is
> missing
> * Keyboard navigable, preferrably with optionally expandable menus.
> * Top level menu items should be real links
> * Menus drop down on hover (obviously)

Hi Roger,
I have something that (I believe) fits #1, #2, #3 (not all browsers though),
#4 and #5

http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp

HTH,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Accessible dropdown menus

[Kim Kruse]

Maybe this is what you're looking for http://www.udm4.com/ (but I guess 
you're already aware their existence)

Kim
Roger Johansson wrote:
On 14 apr 2005, at 09.07, Dmitry Baranovskiy wrote:
I am not shure is my menu realisation fit to your requierments, but
you could take a look:
http://siter.com.au/dmitry/dyn-3-menu/index.html

On 14 apr 2005, at 09.58, Jeremy Dowe wrote:
There is a new article specially on the advantages and disadvantages
of drop downs. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/hybrid/ - all code
inclusive.

Hi,
Thanks for responding, but nope, neither of those is what I'm looking 
for.

/Roger
--
http://www.456bereastreet.com/
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] implementing index and end-notes on the web

[Paul Novitski]

I'm converting a book to a website and am mulling over various ways to 
implement the text, index, and end-notes in web-standards, accessible XHTML 
and CSS, potentially with the aid of scripting.  I welcome your feedback 
and links to existing examples on the net.


Index format

Here's an example of an index entry with both general page references and 
three subentries:

Carroll, Lewis, 40-50, 66
   Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, 5, 24, 334
   childhood, 12-17
   Through the Looking-Glass, 23, 103, 334
In print, an index is page-based: it cites each page or page-range that 
contains one or more occurrences of an indexed term (or discussion of the 
topic to which the term refers even if the term itself doesn't 
appear).  When I'm researching something in a book, I'll typically go to 
the index to look up the term, and then -- saving my place in the index 
with a finger so I can flip back & forth for multiple lookups -- to each of 
the target pages to eyeball-search for the topic.  This model works, not 
perfectly but well enough, because a paper page is a relatively short chunk 
of text to scan.

For the web I need to use a different model.  First of all, I'm thinking 
that paper pages won't translate to HTML pages.  Hard pagination every N 
lines doesn't work well in HTML unless the font-size is fixed, and I want 
to leave the text resizable to be accessible.  When the reader resizes the 
text, hard page-breaks that fall in mid-sentence cause pages to end 
awkwardly in mid-line, while paginating only on paragraph breaks creates 
pages of uneven lengths making for ugly printout.  Therefore I'm tempted to 
paginate the book only at the end of each chapter.  This might require the 
reader to scroll down through each chapter which can tire the eyes, but it 
lends itself well to printing.

Without normal paper-style pages, how does an index work?
- Lacking page numbers, one could use the standard index format but refer 
to chapter numbers instead.  However, a chapter seems too large and not 
specific enough a location.

- Readers can search for specific instances of a term using their browser 
controls, however that doesn't work when a term might appear in a variety 
of forms ("Lewis Carroll" | "Lewis" | "Carroll" | "Carroll, L." | "her son" 
| "Dear L.," | etc.).

- One could refer instead to the paragraph that contains the indexed 
term.  A paragraph is just right, but brings up the problem of how to 
number paragraphs in a cosmetically acceptable and non-intrusive way.

- In hypertext, displayable location numbers can be considered 
irrelevant.  The linking between words in text and index entries is 
subtextual (href=""), providing other visible/audible cues to the reader: 
words in text can be styled typically to indicate that they're hyperlinks 
and index entries can provide some other hyperlinked symbol to represent 
each instance: a graphic symbol or an instance number:

Carroll, Lewis, LINK, LINK
   Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, LINK, LINK, LINK
   childhood<--(itself a link)
   Through the Looking-Glass, LINK, LINK
or:
Carroll, Lewis, 1-7, 8
   Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, 9, 13, 17
   childhood, 10-12
   Through the Looking-Glass, 14, 15, 16
In this latter model, does a range of instance numbers work for the reader 
in the same way as a range of page numbers?

=
Index user interface:
=
The user interface for an index could be implemented in a variety of ways:
- Place text and index on separate pages, and merely hyperlink between 
them, using local #anchors to position the selected text in the 
viewport.  The anchor for a word in text could be located at the term 
itself, so it appears on the first line of the viewport, or at the 
beginning of the current paragraph.

- When a word in text is clicked, bring up the index entries for that term 
in a pop-up window.  This is an unhappy solution with respect to 
accessibility & advertising-suppression preferences.

- When a word in text is clicked, bring up a faux window (an 
absolutely-positioned div) overlaying the text that contains the index 
entries for that term -- similar to the context-menu one might invoke by 
right-clicking on a link.  This requires javascript, so a robust fall-back 
system should work in the absence of client-side scripting.

- Keep an empty sidebar for display of index entries, footnotes, etc. when 
linked text is clicked.  Ditto above re JavaScript.

- Enable the user to highlight (and de-highlight) all instances of an 
indexed term in the text -- similar to Google PDF-to-HTML result pages.  If 
all instances of each term are assigned a unique class name in the markup, 
toggling such highlighting would be easy using CSS & a touch of javascript.

==
End-notes:
==
A problem related to indexing, but simpler, is that of end-notes or 

Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional & Simplified Chinese in an English web site

[Juergen Auer]

On 13 Apr 2005 at 15:26, tee wrote:

> I do not code with (#x...) entities for unicode Chinese. I did make sure
> every character is unicode-able. Everything display properly in other
> browsers except IE 5 Mac.  I have no way to find out as all characters are
> in "?" in the source code.

Hi tee,

my idea was: The IE5/Mac shows UTF-8 wrong - perhaps he will show the 
corresponding character entity (&#x ...;) instead. The hope (may be 
wrong) is that the IE5 finds the correct font and the glyphe alone.

An example: At 

http://www.lotusseeds.com/IE_Mac/example.html 

you had marked a wrong character after the word 'Web' (the first 
character in the next line). Copying this character from 

http://www.lotusseeds.com/simplified.html

and checking the codepoint says this has to be the character with the 
hex-code 6807. So creating a page with 

标

in the body may show it correct. If not ... then my idea was wrong.


Best Regards
Juergen Auer
http://www.sql-und-xml.de/

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] Need some CSS help

[Trusz, Andrew]

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lori Leach
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 10:10 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Need some CSS help

Hello WSG,

http://www.zenfulcreations.com/client-files/do/pa/guiR3.jpg
:
http://www.zenfulcreations.com/client-files/do/pa/
The CSS validates: http://www.zenfulcreations.com/client-files/do/pa/pa.css


PROBLEMS:

1. I need the design to look like the mockup, except it must be fluid, not
fixed (as the mockup looks). I think I have gotten that, but when sized down
the right mid content drops.
2. I have clear: both used many times in the right content area to make the
footer rest at the bottom. I can't figure out why I just can't get it down
there without that.
3. IE is munching the "headings" for the boxes (especially the news box and
it is fried in FF too - however it is coded the same as all the others that
DO work) and I have changed, tweaked and tested new things to make them work
right, and am at a loss.
4. The Top Rated Games box, I have had to put a absolute height in - I did
not have that there earlier on in the coding process and it worked -- I
changed something and now it does not, so when the window is resized, the
buttons fall out of the div.


**
First look:

1. 3 column setup with header and footer. Two outside columns
position:absolute, fixed width. Center column has a flexible banner and top
text with two columns under. The left sub column is fixed width. The right
flexible. In other words, most of the central column stretches.

The right sub column drops because something has to give. That is, the fixed
width columns can't compress only that right column can. That's why at
higher resolutions only the middle column header and right sub column
stretch. Semi-flexible design.

2. Cleared out all the extra clear:both before the footer. No problem in
either FF or IE6. 

3. Don't see any munching. The images look the same on the page and in the
file.

4. Took out the height on top rated and nothing happened up to 1600 on the
resolution. Things only looked bad when the screen couldn't handle the fixed
widhs.

So, it looks ok in terms of what you've done. And as you say it validates. 


drew
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize -> resizable font size

[Ben Curtis]

was wondering if there are any percentage or em
equivalents or formulas to convert from:
FONT-SIZE: 11px, 22px, 10px, 14px and 16px.
To go from pixels to em's, simply divide by 16.
Is this a cross-browser, cross-platform formula? Is there a chart of 
the standard settings for browsers, and possibly for the common user 
settings?

--
Ben Curtis : webwright
bivia : a personal web studio
http://www.bivia.com
v: (818) 507-6613

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Accessible dropdown menus

[Roger Johansson]

On 14 apr 2005, at 09.07, Dmitry Baranovskiy wrote:
I am not shure is my menu realisation fit to your requierments, but
you could take a look:
http://siter.com.au/dmitry/dyn-3-menu/index.html
On 14 apr 2005, at 09.58, Jeremy Dowe wrote:
There is a new article specially on the advantages and disadvantages
of drop downs. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/hybrid/ - all code
inclusive.
Hi,
Thanks for responding, but nope, neither of those is what I'm looking 
for.

/Roger
--
http://www.456bereastreet.com/
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize -> resizable font size

[Hugues Brunelle]

Hi Mike,
Only partially at the moment because I have no time :(
But, if you don't mind the background image problem, my actual Website is a
good exemple : http://www.echo3d.com (and if you go under portfolio, click a
project, and look at the content image. It use the same technique so you'll
be able to scale it, of course quality drops when you do but as soon as IE
support entirely PNG24 I'll be able to put good resolution pictures and
forget about quality).
My under dev page is more like it http://dev.echo3d.com/services (it's the
only page available at the moment)

Cheers,

H. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Foskett
Sent: April 14, 2005 08:29
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize -> resizable font size

Hi Hugues,

Do you have an online version demonstrating this technique?

Mike 2k:)2



 Mike Foskett
 Web Standards, Accessibility & Testing Consultant  Multimedia Publishing
and Production  British Educational Communications and Technology Agency
(Becta)  Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410
 www.becta.org.uk

 




-Original Message-
From: Hugues Brunelle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 14 April 2005 14:48
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize -> resizable font size


Hello Neerav,
You can even use "em" unit for your element dimensions too. So all your
layout can zoom in/out too. The easy way I know is to define what 1em is by
telling first in pixels :

html {
font-size: 10px !important; /* understood and respected by browsers
except for IE that will take the last identical attribute */
font-size: x-small; /* IE equivalent for 10px */
}

And then tell the next element to appear in your code :

body {
font-size: 1em; 
}

And then, if you want a div to be 200 by 345 pixels :

div {
width: 20em;
height: 34.5em; 
}

Or in case only height should be "zoomable"

div {
width: 200px;
height: 34.5em; 
}

So now when you use "text size / increase (zoom), all your element will zoom
too. Hope it helps


Hugues Brunelle
Concepteur graphique
 
//
ECHO tridimension
2139 rue Masson
Montréal QC  H2H 1A8
 
1-(514)5211360
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Neerav
Sent: April 14, 2005 03:21
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize -> resizable font size

Hi all

Im doing a bit of pro bono work at the moment and not having ever used fixed
font sizes, was wondering if there are any percentage or em equivalents or
formulas to convert from:

FONT-SIZE: 11px;
FONT-SIZE: 22px;
FONT-SIZE: 10px;
FONT-SIZE: 14px;
FONT-SIZE: 16px;
etc

to more accessible font size units

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au

Need a Sydney based web standards contractor? You need my services. Recent
projects for Glassonion, Freshweb, Cogentis, Ceneka ...

http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/neerav
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**




**
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
www.mimesweeper.com
**


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] newspaper format

[designer]

Thanks Paul,

- Original Message - 
From: "Paul Novitski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "webstandards group" 
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] newspaper format


[snip]

> Bob,
>
> Your two-column 'newspaper' format works for me cosmetically but not as
> markup.  I would replace this markup:
>
>  
> First paragraph.
>
>Second paragraph.
>  
>
> with this:
>
>  
> First paragraph.
> Second paragraph.
>  
>
> You seem to be using the line-break tags to control presentation from
html,
> but I can't see why you'd need to do so given your XHTML+CSS toolset.
>

You are right of course, and I knew I had work to do on getting things
'proper'. I used the breaks as an easy stop gap whilst sorting the layout -
the paras were reduced to no spacing because of my *{margin : 0; padding :
0} declaration at the top of the CSS.  I've added a bottom margin to the
paras now, and deleted the breaks.

Thanks too for the John D. Berry link too - Interesting!

Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] Need some CSS help

[Lori Leach]

Hello WSG,

I have some problems with a design I have been working with (working on it
for over a month now), and I have looked at it so long, I am just lost as to
where to go next to solve my problems with it.

The mockup of the design is here:
http://www.zenfulcreations.com/client-files/do/pa/guiR3.jpg

The page, coded in XHTML 1.0 Transitional (validates):
http://www.zenfulcreations.com/client-files/do/pa/
The CSS validates: http://www.zenfulcreations.com/client-files/do/pa/pa.css

I have utilized the * hack to make some of the areas work in IE (which I
really don't want to do). I have not tested with any other browser other
than Firefox and IE6 (at this point). I must get this working on those, and
all browsers as soon as possible.

PROBLEMS:

1. I need the design to look like the mockup, except it must be fluid, not
fixed (as the mockup looks). I think I have gotten that, but when sized down
the right mid content drops.
2. I have clear: both used many times in the right content area to make the
footer rest at the bottom. I can't figure out why I just can't get it down
there without that.
3. IE is munching the "headings" for the boxes (especially the news box and
it is fried in FF too - however it is coded the same as all the others that
DO work) and I have changed, tweaked and tested new things to make them work
right, and am at a loss.
4. The Top Rated Games box, I have had to put a absolute height in - I did
not have that there earlier on in the coding process and it worked -- I
changed something and now it does not, so when the window is resized, the
buttons fall out of the div.

I am sure when (and if) anyone looks, there will be LOTS more problems that
need attention, but I am just totally lost - as I said, I have been working
on this layout for over a month and just can't see things clearly anymore.
It all looks the same to me now... :(

I would love if someone here can help me to figure out what in the world I
am doing wrong. I am willing to pay for someone's time to assist me in
getting this taken care of as my client has been waiting forever on this.

Please and thank you so much!


Lori Leach
ZenfulCreations
http://www.zenfulcreations.com/


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

[Jonathan Bloy]

On Wednesday, April 13, 2005 9:50pm, Lea de Groot wrote:
>I've seen a couple of sites with a very nice tab interface
>whereby the 'skip' link became visible on the first tab,
>but was hidden if that didnt happen. I think Mike Pepper
>does it at http://www.seowebsitepromotion.com/

That's the method I use too.  I like to make sure the skip link is very
visible (once the tab key is hit).  Here's an example from one of my
recent sites.  http://www.cudahyfamilylibrary.org/



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Easy forms, uneasy Gecko

[Kornel Lesinski]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:35:31 +0100, Philippe Wittenbergh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
There is a very easy way of doing forms without tables:
label {display: inline-block; width: 10em;}
and it works in IE/win, IE/mac, Opera and Safari,
but totally fails in Gecko...
Does anyone know how to get it working in Gecko?
You can try display:-moz-inline-box, that is an internal alias to  
inline-block that works sometimes.
It's buggy, but that's better than nothing. Thanks.
--
regards, Kornel Lesiński
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize -> resizable font size

[Mike Foskett]

Hi Hugues,

Do you have an online version demonstrating this technique?

Mike 2k:)2


 
 Mike Foskett 
 Web Standards, Accessibility & Testing Consultant
 Multimedia Publishing and Production 
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) 
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ 
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410 
 www.becta.org.uk

 




-Original Message-
From: Hugues Brunelle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 14 April 2005 14:48
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize -> resizable font size


Hello Neerav,
You can even use "em" unit for your element dimensions too. So all your layout 
can zoom in/out too. The easy way I know is to define what 1em is by telling 
first in pixels :

html {
font-size: 10px !important; /* understood and respected by browsers 
except for IE that will take the last identical attribute */
font-size: x-small; /* IE equivalent for 10px */
}

And then tell the next element to appear in your code :

body {
font-size: 1em; 
}

And then, if you want a div to be 200 by 345 pixels :

div {
width: 20em;
height: 34.5em; 
}

Or in case only height should be "zoomable"

div {
width: 200px;
height: 34.5em; 
}

So now when you use "text size / increase (zoom), all your element will zoom 
too. Hope it helps


Hugues Brunelle
Concepteur graphique
 
//
ECHO tridimension
2139 rue Masson
Montréal QC  H2H 1A8
 
1-(514)5211360
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Neerav
Sent: April 14, 2005 03:21
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize -> resizable font size

Hi all

Im doing a bit of pro bono work at the moment and not having ever used fixed 
font sizes, was wondering if there are any percentage or em equivalents or 
formulas to convert from:

FONT-SIZE: 11px;
FONT-SIZE: 22px;
FONT-SIZE: 10px;
FONT-SIZE: 14px;
FONT-SIZE: 16px;
etc

to more accessible font size units

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au

Need a Sydney based web standards contractor? You need my services. Recent 
projects for Glassonion, Freshweb, Cogentis, Ceneka ...

http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts 
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/neerav
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**




**
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
www.mimesweeper.com
**


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] JavaScript and escaped quotes - THREAD CLOSED - EXPLANATION

[russ - maxdesign]

My apologies for not explaining the thread closure earlier.

I closed the thread due to the aggressive nature of the last post, not due
to the topic of javascript. My concern was that the post could have lead to
a possible flame war and this is definitely something we do not want to see
on this list. The aim of the overall group and the list is to help others.
This can only be achieved if we remain civil.

Just so we are all clear:

1. EcmaScript (and Javascript) is a standard and a valid discussion point on
this list - just as valid as any CSS discussions.

2. If you have a concern about a thread, please do not vent your wrath on
the list. Instead, let Peter and I know. We may not respond immediately, but
we will get back to you.

If the thread is based on a topic you have no interest in, then there are
many ways to deal with it locally, such as applying filters on incoming
mail. 

Again, apologies for any confusion my thread closure may have caused.
Russ



>> This works. But what to do if the message also needs " inside?
> 
> Can we keep the javascript cr*p off this list? Thanks!
> 

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Easy forms, uneasy Gecko

[Martin Heiden]

Kornel,

Am Donnerstag, 14. April 2005 um 13:29:47 haben Sie geschrieben:


KL> There is a very easy way of doing forms without tables:
KL> label {display: inline-block; width: 10em;}

KL> I prefer doing forms that way, because I'm styling code
KL> that I don't have full control of and I don't like to struggle
KL> with floats'n'clearing.

I guess there is just one way, that won't please you:

label { display: inline }

Like that you would loose alignment.

But if it is a simple form with just pairs of label - input you could
use floats and the Easy Clearing Method:
(http://positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html)

label {
  display: block;
  width: 10em;
}
input:after {
content: ".";
display: block; 
height: 0; 
clear: both; 
visibility: hidden;
}

I think this method will fail if you have to inputs in a row. However,
I never tried it, maybe it works.

Martin

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] Alistapart vs Digital-Web

[Peter Goddard]

ALA gets my vote every time,  although new article 
submissions are suspended at the moment. Jeffrey Zeldman 
rules!
 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Piero 
FissoreSent: 14 April 2005 13:39To: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Alistapart vs 
Digital-Web
Alistapart is a leader in wd on-line magazine. But what do you think 
about www.digital-web.com? It's growing 
everyday, maybe the best navigation-system on the web, a nice approach to web 
design, simple and complete.So: what do you think about?:)P.S. Logically, I still love ala.

RE: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize -> resizable font size

[Hugues Brunelle]

Hello Neerav,
You can even use "em" unit for your element dimensions too. So all your
layout can zoom in/out too.
The easy way I know is to define what 1em is by telling first in pixels :

html {
font-size: 10px !important; /* understood and respected by browsers
except for IE that will take the last identical attribute */
font-size: x-small; /* IE equivalent for 10px */
}

And then tell the next element to appear in your code :

body {
font-size: 1em; 
}

And then, if you want a div to be 200 by 345 pixels :

div {
width: 20em;
height: 34.5em; 
}

Or in case only height should be "zoomable"

div {
width: 200px;
height: 34.5em; 
}

So now when you use "text size / increase (zoom), all your element will zoom
too.
Hope it helps


Hugues Brunelle
Concepteur graphique
 
//
ECHO tridimension
2139 rue Masson
Montréal QC  H2H 1A8
 
1-(514)5211360
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Neerav
Sent: April 14, 2005 03:21
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize -> resizable font size

Hi all

Im doing a bit of pro bono work at the moment and not having ever used fixed
font sizes, was wondering if there are any percentage or em equivalents or
formulas to convert from:

FONT-SIZE: 11px;
FONT-SIZE: 22px;
FONT-SIZE: 10px;
FONT-SIZE: 14px;
FONT-SIZE: 16px;
etc

to more accessible font size units

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au

Need a Sydney based web standards contractor? You need my services.
Recent projects for Glassonion, Freshweb, Cogentis, Ceneka ...

http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/neerav
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] Alistapart vs Digital-Web

[Piero Fissore]

Alistapart is a leader in wd on-line magazine. But what do you think
about www.digital-web.com? It's growing everyday, maybe the best
navigation-system on the web, a nice approach to web design, simple and
complete.

So: what do you think about?

:)

P.S. Logically, I still love ala.

Re: [WSG] Easy forms, uneasy Gecko

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On 14 Apr 2005, at 8:29 pm, Kornel Lesinski wrote:
There is a very easy way of doing forms without tables:
label {display: inline-block; width: 10em;}
and it works in IE/win, IE/mac, Opera and Safari,
but totally fails in Gecko...
Does anyone know how to get it working in Gecko?
You can try display:-moz-inline-box, that is an internal alias to 
inline-block that works sometimes.

Philippe
---/---
Philippe Wittenbergh
now live : 
code | design | web projects : 
IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : 
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On 14 Apr 2005, at 7:22 pm, Susanne Jaeger wrote:
I like the idea and used it myself in a recent procject, but I've never
been able to get Opera cooperating.
a:focus works in other browser but Opera seems not to use these styles
when keyboard activated via "a" or "q". Does anyone know more about 
this
issue?
a:focus is simply not implemented in Opera. It uses its own scheme, but 
doesn't listen to the css :focus. It only works partly on form 
elements, I think.

Philippe
---/---
Philippe Wittenbergh
now live : 
code | design | web projects : 
IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : 
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] newspaper format

[Paul Novitski]

At 04:44 AM 4/14/2005, designer wrote:
I have been trying to present the information relating to a novel in a more
interesting style than 'just text' or indeed three columns, and have
experimented with a sort of newspaper style. The newspaper is a fictitious
one which is mentioned often in the novel, and my effort can be seen
(in isolation from the rest of the site) at:
http://www.treyarnon.fsworld.co.uk/bren/newspaper/news.html

Bob,
Your two-column 'newspaper' format works for me cosmetically but not as 
markup.  I would replace this markup:


   First paragraph.
  
  Second paragraph.

with this:

   First paragraph.
   Second paragraph.

You seem to be using the line-break tags to control presentation from html, 
but I can't see why you'd need to do so given your XHTML+CSS toolset.

Tangentially, you might be interested to see John D. Berry's recent work 
with a two-column digital book (in PDF format, not html): his article on 
the design process is at http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/22736.html

Regards,
Paul 

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] newspaper format

[designer]

Hi Guys and gals,

I have been trying to present the information relating to a novel in a more
interesting style than 'just text' or indeed three columns, and have
experimented with a sort of newspaper style. The newspaper is a fictitious
one which is mentioned often in the novel, and my effort can be seen
(in isolation from the rest of the site) at:

http://www.treyarnon.fsworld.co.uk/bren/newspaper/news.html

The original design I produced and am modifying can be seen at
www.novelnovella.com .

I have used floats (of course!) and the 'layout is supposed to work like:

banner
header
leftcol   rightcol
banner
leftcol rightcol
etc

I would be most grateful for any general feedback : does it work as a
design? Does it work (esp on MAC) as it's supposed to?  Is there anything
glaringly bad about it? You get the idea. It works for me in FF1.0, IE6,
IE5.5, Opera 7, all on PC.

Many thanks,

Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] Easy forms, uneasy Gecko

[Kornel Lesinski]

There is a very easy way of doing forms without tables:
label {display: inline-block; width: 10em;}
and it works in IE/win, IE/mac, Opera and Safari,
but totally fails in Gecko...
Does anyone know how to get it working in Gecko?
I prefer doing forms that way, because I'm styling code
that I don't have full control of and I don't like to struggle
with floats'n'clearing.
--
regards, Kornel Lesiński
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize -> resizable font size

[Neerav]

Alex and kemie
I tip my hat to you, your advice worked perfectly :-)
--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Need a Sydney based web standards contractor? You need my services.
Recent projects for Glassonion, Freshweb, Cogentis, Ceneka ...
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/neerav
Alex James wrote:
Neerav wrote:
was wondering if there are any percentage or em 
equivalents or formulas to convert from:
FONT-SIZE: 11px, 22px, 10px, 14px and 16px.

To go from pixels to em's, simply divide by 16.
HTH
aj
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize -> resizable font size

[kemie guaida]

This table by reed design might be helpful:
http://www.reeddesign.co.uk/test/points-pixels.html

kemie

...:| kemie |:...

.:| www.monolinea.com
|:.





  
  

Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

[Susanne Jaeger]

Lea de Groot wrote, On 14.04.2005 04:50:

> I've seen a couple of sites with a very nice tab interface whereby the 
> 'skip' link became visible on the first tab, but was hidden if that 
> didnt happen.

I like the idea and used it myself in a recent procject, but I've never
been able to get Opera cooperating.
a:focus works in other browser but Opera seems not to use these styles
when keyboard activated via "a" or "q". Does anyone know more about this
issue?

Susanne

-- 
http://sujag.de - Webentwicklung und -beratung
D-10119 Berlin
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] JavaScript and escaped quotes - THREAD CLOSED

[russ - maxdesign]

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] JavaScript and escaped quotes

[Rick Faaberg]

On 4/14/05 2:51 AM "Juergen Auer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:

>> var msg="Don't Look Now";
>> 
>> Don't Look Now
> 
> This works. But what to do if the message also needs " inside?

Can we keep the javascript cr*p off this list? Thanks!

Rick Faaberg

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] JavaScript and escaped quotes

[Juergen Auer]

On 14 Apr 2005 at 15:35, Bruce Morrison wrote:

> var msg="Don't Look Now";
> 
> Don't Look Now

This works. But what to do if the message also needs " inside?

Make it generic:

var msg="Don" + String.fromCharCode(39) + " use " +
String.fromCharCode(34) + "too" + 
String.fromCharCode(34) + " much ..."

produces 

Don't use "too" much ...


Best Regards
Juergen Auer
http://www.sql-und-xml.de/

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize -> resizable font size

[Alex James]

Neerav wrote:
> was wondering if there are any percentage or em 
> equivalents or formulas to convert from:
> FONT-SIZE: 11px, 22px, 10px, 14px and 16px.

To go from pixels to em's, simply divide by 16.

HTH

aj
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize -> resizable font size

[Ben Hamilton]

Neerav wrote:
Im doing a bit of pro bono work at the moment and not having ever used 
fixed font sizes, was wondering if there are any percentage or em 
equivalents or formulas to convert from:
FONT-SIZE: 11px;
etc
to more accessible font size units
The Kubrick template at http://binarybonsai.com/kubrick/ has a css file 
that says:

body {
   font-size: 62.5%; /* Resets 1em to 10px */


I don't know where he got that conversion from tho.
Ben.

--
Ben Hamilton
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://hamilton.id.au/?:-) 

Need a web site hosted? I was fed up with the poor service I was
getting and decided that I could do better. Here it is:
http://dynamicwebhosting.com.au/?referrer=emailsighidau
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] Fixed pixel fontsize -> resizable font size

[Neerav]

Hi all
Im doing a bit of pro bono work at the moment and not having ever used 
fixed font sizes, was wondering if there are any percentage or em 
equivalents or formulas to convert from:

FONT-SIZE: 11px;
FONT-SIZE: 22px;
FONT-SIZE: 10px;
FONT-SIZE: 14px;
FONT-SIZE: 16px;
etc
to more accessible font size units
--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Need a Sydney based web standards contractor? You need my services.
Recent projects for Glassonion, Freshweb, Cogentis, Ceneka ...
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/neerav
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

[Sarah Peeke (XERT)]

OK, I have now enabled full keyboard access (system preferences), but when I 
use the tab key in both
sites listed below nothing happens. It is only when I hover over the area where 
the navigation
should appear that each link appears.

> >>For a compromise http://www.lionsq3.asn.au the tab key reveals the skip 
> >>links.

> Very nice. I also like what Molly has done http://www.molly.com/
> Use the tab key - 2nd tab

Can anyone suggest what may be wrong with my set up as I imagine this is *not* 
what is meant to
happen. The user would have to guess where these links are using the method I 
currently need to use!

Sarah
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] Accessible dropdown menus

[Jeremy Dowe]

Hi,

I used on recently from Alist-Apart (www.alistapart.com)

There is a new article specially on the advantages and disadvantages
of drop downs. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/hybrid/ - all code
inclusive.

Jeremy Dowe

 Web Designer / Librarian
 6/43 Devoy St, Ashgrove Qld 4060.
 H = +61 7 3366 5797
 M = 0402 900 458
 E = [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 W = www.jeronimo.net.au




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Dmitry Baranovskiy
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:07 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible dropdown menus


Hi,
I am not shure is my menu realisation fit to your requierments, but
you could take a look:
http://siter.com.au/dmitry/dyn-3-menu/index.html

On 4/14/05, Roger Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I have a client that insists on having a dropdown menu. I have tried
> talking them out of it, but no. So I have to implement one of the web
> gadgets that I detest most of all.
>
> Fortunately only a basic single level vertical dropdown is needed. I've
> looked at some techniques but haven't found one that I'm completely
> happy with.
>
> Here are the requirements:
>
> * Semantic markup (i.e. nested unordered lists)
> * Graceful degradation when support for CSS and/or JavaScript is missing
> * Keyboard navigable, preferrably with optionally expandable menus.
> * Top level menu items should be real links
> * Menus drop down on hover (obviously)
>
> Some of the techniques I've looked at:
>
> Suckerfish < http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/ >
> Neat, but not keyboard friendly
>
> Ultimate Drop Down Menu < http://www.brothercake.com/dropdown/ >
> Fully featured, but s-l-o-w. Overkill for this simple menu.
>
> YADM < http://www.onlinetools.org/tools/yadm/ >
> Close, but when tabbing through the menu the currently focused link
> can't be seen unless you first expand the menu.
>
> Easymenu < http://www.easymenu.co.uk/ >
> Also close, but menus are expanded automatically, forcing keyboard
> users to tab through all links.
>
> Neither of these techniques seem to get it all right. At least as far
> as I can tell.
>
> So, have any of you implemented a horizontal, single level dropdown
> menu that you are completely happy with when it comes to accessibility?
>
> /Roger
>
> --
> http://www.456bereastreet.com/
>
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
>
>


--
Best regards,
Dmitry Baranovskiy
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Accessible dropdown menus

[Dmitry Baranovskiy]

Hi,
I am not shure is my menu realisation fit to your requierments, but
you could take a look:
http://siter.com.au/dmitry/dyn-3-menu/index.html

On 4/14/05, Roger Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I have a client that insists on having a dropdown menu. I have tried
> talking them out of it, but no. So I have to implement one of the web
> gadgets that I detest most of all.
> 
> Fortunately only a basic single level vertical dropdown is needed. I've
> looked at some techniques but haven't found one that I'm completely
> happy with.
> 
> Here are the requirements:
> 
> * Semantic markup (i.e. nested unordered lists)
> * Graceful degradation when support for CSS and/or JavaScript is missing
> * Keyboard navigable, preferrably with optionally expandable menus.
> * Top level menu items should be real links
> * Menus drop down on hover (obviously)
> 
> Some of the techniques I've looked at:
> 
> Suckerfish < http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/ >
> Neat, but not keyboard friendly
> 
> Ultimate Drop Down Menu < http://www.brothercake.com/dropdown/ >
> Fully featured, but s-l-o-w. Overkill for this simple menu.
> 
> YADM < http://www.onlinetools.org/tools/yadm/ >
> Close, but when tabbing through the menu the currently focused link
> can't be seen unless you first expand the menu.
> 
> Easymenu < http://www.easymenu.co.uk/ >
> Also close, but menus are expanded automatically, forcing keyboard
> users to tab through all links.
> 
> Neither of these techniques seem to get it all right. At least as far
> as I can tell.
> 
> So, have any of you implemented a horizontal, single level dropdown
> menu that you are completely happy with when it comes to accessibility?
> 
> /Roger
> 
> --
> http://www.456bereastreet.com/
> 
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
> 


-- 
Best regards,
Dmitry Baranovskiy
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**