Re: [WSG] IE5.5 indenting list items
I have played with margins, padding, text align and text-indent. I even removed the float on the container div and the problem persists. Has anyone encountered this before? A link to online sample of this problem, stripped back to just the problem area, and a link to the stripped back css file would help a lot. Thanks Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Article: MIME and Content Negotiation
Hi, Apologies in advance if you see this cross-posted: From the Top is a series of articles that I am publishing to concisely explain how and why to construct a high quality, web-standards compliant head section for a web page. The second article, just released, examines MIME and Content Negotiation. http://www.thatstandardsguy.co.uk/2006/01/16/content-negotiation/ Comments, especially error-spotting and general bravo very welcome, it all helps with my work position.Regards,-- Karl Dawson Crusader for Web Standards and Accessibility http://www.thatstandardsguy.co.uk-- Accessites Team Member - http://www.accessites.org/-- The power of the Web is in its universality. Access by everyone regardless of disability is an essential aspect. Tim Berners-Lee - W3C Director and inventor of the World Wide Web
Re: [WSG] Article: MIME and Content Negotiation
Hi Karl, An interesting piece, well done. However, it still leaves me with some confusion. I have been using Neil Crosby's PHP approach on [1] (see signature, below) and it works 'OK', BUT, if I omit the meta tag: meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 / from it's usual place, I get Chinese characters everywhere. In other words, although the PHP header puts the lang attribute and utf-8 in the code, it won't work without the meta as well. (Not for me, anyway :-) Why is this, do you think? Using the PHP approach, the head section appears as follows (stars to highlight the offending meta tag) : ?xml version='1.0' encoding='utf-8' ? !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC '-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN' 'http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd' html xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml' xml:lang='en'head titlegwelanmor internet/title meta name=Keywords content= web design, flash, CSS, web standards, affordable style, minimalist, innovative, Cornwall, U.K. / meta name=Description content= gwelanmor Internet is a company which specialises in creating modern,standards-based, minimalist web sites at affordable rates / meta content=Bob McClelland name=author / meta content=bob mcclelland, gwelanmor-internet name=Copyright / meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 / link href=opening/opening.css rel=stylesheet type=text/css / /head Or, if IE or any browser that won't serve application/xhtml+xml, it appears as: !DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC '-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN' 'http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd' html lang='en'head titlegwelanmor internet/title meta name=Keywords content= web design, flash, CSS, web standards, affordable style, minimalist, innovative, Cornwall, U.K. meta name=Description content= gwelanmor Internet is a company which specialises in creating modern,standards-based, minimalist web sites at affordable rates meta content=Bob McClelland name=author meta content=bob mcclelland, gwelanmor-internet name=Copyright meta http-equiv=Content-Type * content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 link href=opening/opening.css rel=stylesheet type=text/css /head Obviously, the meta tag in the IE example is simply wrong and I've wondered about using PHP to generate the line as appropriate so this 'daft' line doesn't appear. But it doesn't seem to work without the charset. This is why I asked yesterday about using : meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=charset=utf-8 / Lachlan says this is simply incorrect, so I'm a bit confused by all this. -- Best Regards, Bob McClelland Cornwall (UK) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk [1] Karl Dawson wrote: Hi, Apologies in advance if you see this cross-posted: From the Top is a series of articles that I am publishing to concisely explain how and why to construct a high quality, web-standards compliant head section for a web page. The second article, just released, examines MIME and Content Negotiation. http://www.thatstandardsguy.co.uk/2006/01/16/content-negotiation/ Comments, especially error-spotting and general bravo very welcome, it all helps with my work position. Regards, -- Karl Dawson Crusader for Web Standards and Accessibility http://www.thatstandardsguy.co.uk -- Accessites Team Member - http://www.accessites.org/ -- The power of the Web is in its universality. Access by everyone regardless of disability is an essential aspect. Tim Berners-Lee - W3C Director and inventor of the World Wide Web -- Best Regards, Bob McClelland Cornwall (UK) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Article: MIME and Content Negotiation
Hi Bob,I modified Neil's script (I'm no PHP scripter though so it took a little trial and error) and the code I published worked for me. My test site is on the home PC but if I recall correctly I think you need to remove any hardcoding of meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 / or similar that you may have in your template / page and pull in the script as an include (baseline statement - I'm sure you're there already). It is essential to declare the content-type in the format above, like Lachlan says :-)For HTML 4 you will want to use meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=utf-8Try my version, maybe Neil had a typo or something?Regards, KarlOn 16/01/06, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Karl,An interesting piece, well done. However, it still leaves me with someconfusion.I have been using Neil Crosby's PHP approach on [1] (see signature,below) and it works 'OK', BUT, if I omit the meta tag: meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=application/xhtml+xml;charset=utf-8 /from it's usual place, I get Chinese characters everywhere.In otherwords, although the PHP header puts the lang attribute and utf-8 in the code, it won't work without the meta as well. (Not for me, anyway :-)Why is this, do you think?Using the PHP approach, the head section appears as follows(stars tohighlight the offending meta tag) : ?xml version='1.0' encoding='utf-8' ?!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC '-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN'' http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd 'html xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml' xml:lang='en'headtitlegwelanmor internet/title meta name=Keywords content= web design, flash, CSS, web standards, affordable style, minimalist, innovative, Cornwall, U.K. /meta name=Descriptioncontent= gwelanmor Internet is a company which specialises in creating modern,standards-based, minimalist web sites at affordable rates / meta content=Bob McClellandname=author /meta content=bob mcclelland, gwelanmor-internetname=Copyright /meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 /link href="">rel=stylesheettype=text/css //head Or, if IE or any browser that won't serve application/xhtml+xml, it appears as:!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC '-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN'' http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd 'html lang='en'headtitlegwelanmor internet/titlemeta name=Keywordscontent= web design, flash, CSS, web standards, affordable style, minimalist, innovative, Cornwall, U.K.meta name=Descriptioncontent= gwelanmor Internet is a company which specialises in creating modern,standards-based, minimalist web sites at affordable rates meta content=Bob McClellandname=authormeta content=bob mcclelland, gwelanmor-internetname=Copyrightmeta http-equiv=Content-Type * content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8link href="">rel=stylesheettype=text/css/head Obviously, the meta tag in the IE example is simply wrong and I'vewondered about using PHP to generate the line as appropriate so this'daft' line doesn't appear. But it doesn't seem to work without thecharset. This is why I asked yesterday about using : meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=charset=utf-8 /Lachlan says this is simply incorrect, so I'm a bit confused by all this.--Best Regards,Bob McClelland Cornwall (UK)www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk [1]Karl Dawson wrote: Hi, Apologies in advance if you see this cross-posted: From the Top is a series of articles that I am publishing to concisely explain how and why to construct a high quality, web-standards compliant head section for a web page. The second article, just released, examines MIME and Content Negotiation. http://www.thatstandardsguy.co.uk/2006/01/16/content-negotiation/ Comments, especially error-spotting and general bravo very welcome, it all helps with my work position. Regards, -- Karl Dawson Crusader for Web Standards and Accessibility http://www.thatstandardsguy.co.uk -- Accessites Team Member - http://www.accessites.org/ -- The power of the Web is in its universality. Access by everyone regardless of disability is an essential aspect. Tim Berners-Lee - W3C Director and inventor of the World Wide Web --Best Regards,Bob McClellandCornwall (UK)www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**-- Karl DawsonCrusader for Web Standards and Accessibility http://www.thatstandardsguy.co.uk--Accessites Team Member - http://www.accessites.org/ --The power of the Web
Re: [WSG] Article: MIME and Content Negotiation
designer wrote: I have been using Neil Crosby's PHP approach on [1] (see signature, below) and it works 'OK', BUT, if I omit the meta tag: meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 / ... Lachlan says this is simply incorrect, so I'm a bit confused by all this. Did you read my article [1] which Rimantas referred you to? That explains what you're supposed to do. You need to use real HTTP headers, not the inferior meta element. The end of that article links to another that actually explains how to set the charset parameter in the HTTP headers using various servers and server-side scripting languages [2]. For PHP, it's as simple as calling this PHP function before any of the page content is output. For HTML 4 and Appendix C compatible XHTML header(Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8); Or, for real XHTML header(Content-Type: application/xhtml+xml); (The charset parameter is only really needed for text/* media types, for XML served with an application/* media type, the XML declaration is recommended for use instead which may be omitted for UTF-8 and UTF-16) [1] http://lachy.id.au/log/2006/01/content-type [2] http://www.w3.org/International/O-HTTP-charset -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Technical Aberrations?
Heres another link that might help, http://www.alistapart.com/articles/sprites/ Charlie http://www.bartlettdesign.co.uk On 1/15/06, Rob Mientjes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 15/01/06, Bruce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The simplebits is very interesting. But it seems angled images in a list that change aren't do-able using CSS without tables and some kind of image replacement technique. A pic is worth a thousand words so I have made a link to the mockup with a menu item hi-lited.: http://www.bkdesign.ca/mockup5.pdf Personally I don't think this can be done, but I'm an amature,With image replacement and some smart positioning, I do think it _can_ be done. Stu has some nice examples of the outrageousness we canproduce with CSS at http://cssplay.co.uk/Do give it a shot, and ifit won't work out, ask on this list again for support. I'm sure many will be able to help you out.-Rob.
Re: [WSG] CSS Icon
I thought that per standard you inserted the favicon.ico file in the parent directory to the site, and thus browsers would ask for it, and get it as they requested! The HTML is just if you specific pages on a site that needs their own favicons! signed Svip - sviip.dk On 16/01/06, Alvaro Mouriño [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks! =) AlvAro - 2006/1/16, Joshua Street [EMAIL PROTECTED]: favicon.ico in your website root. It's not actually anything to do with CSS... though you CAN set it in your head element with link rel=shortcut icon href=favicon.ico type=image/x-icon / On 1/16/06, Alvaro Mouriño [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi List, I was just wondering if it is possible to set an icon for my site with CSS (the one next to the title) Either way, how do I do it? Thanks, AlvAro ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Article: MIME and Content Negotiation
Karl Dawson wrote: From the Top is a series of articles that I am publishing to concisely explain how and why to construct a high quality, web-standards compliant head section for a web page. The second article, just released, examines MIME and Content Negotiation. http://www.thatstandardsguy.co.uk/2006/01/16/content-negotiation/ It started out well and is covering a very important topic that isn't well understood by many, but there's a few issues you didn't cover and/or covered incorrectly. The following quotes are from the article: Code must be well-formed. Remember XHTML is a reformulation of HTML as an application of XML. As such it must validate. You're confusing well-formedness and validation. The first statement is correct, it must be well-formed, but the second that it must validate because it is XML, is not. The validation requirements are the same as HTML 4. In other words, it must validate to be a conforming XHTML document, but there is no requirement in XML for all documents to be valid (even if they have a DTD). # The XML Prolog is required for character sets other than UTF-8 and UTF-16. This is declared on line 1 of your code in the format xml version=1.0 encoding=yourChosenCharset ? That's the XML declaration, which forms part of the XML Prolog. The XML Prolog is always present and comprises the XML declaration, PIs and the DOCTYPE (although all of those parts are optional in XML 1.0) # Only five named character entities are “safe”: lt;, gt;, amp;, quot; and apos;. On 4 are safe when using text/html, because apos; is undefined in HTML and is not supported by IE. However, the article of mine that you linked to does cover that issue so it's not a major problem. Standard Generalized Markup Language (SGML) comments (!-- comment --) hide everything - including style and script tags. They're XML comments, which are based on SGML comments but still differ in significant ways. I have another article which covers this issue in great detail. http://lachy.id.au/log/2005/05/script-comments # Stylesheets need to be referenced with an XML stylesheet declaration. Wrong! That's just one of the myths in the widely criticised Appendix C. This is done by creating a fragment identifier, Slightly wrong terminology, a fragment identifier only occurs in a URI (after the #) which references an ID or an anchor in an (X)HTML document. for example id=”myStyle” in each lt;stylegt; tag and reference this in the XML stylesheet declaration that goes above the DOCTYPE declaration in the format: ?xml-stylesheet href=myStyle.css type=text/css ?. Note that you will need this declaration for each stylesheet. This is unnecessary because any XML UA that recognises the id attribute as an ID must be either a validating parser or be an XHTML UA, in which case it will already recognise both the style and link elements, making the xml-stylesheet PI unnecessary. If it is a validating parser, but not an XHTML UA, the stylesheet would do much good anyway, because there wouldn't be any default UA stylesheet which would likely be depended upon for the styles to work properly. application/xhtml-xml That's written a few times in the article, it's just a small mathematical error. You need to add xml, not subtract it. i.e. application/xhtml+xml Lastly, there's one more issue that wasn't discussed which should have at least been mentioned. By serving application/xhtml+xml, Mozilla cannot yet incrementally render the document. It is a browser limitation, there's nothing in the spec that prevents incremental rendering in implementations, but it still needs to be considered for practical reasons. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Article: MIME and Content Negotiation
Thanks for the feedback, I made a few amendments / corrections this morning including:xhtml-xml - D'oh! Got it right twice before :owell-formedness versus validation - Got it right once before ;-) (more coffee at proof-reading time) On 16/01/06, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: # The XML Prolog is required for character sets other than UTF-8 and UTF-16. This is declared on line 1 of your code in the format xml version=1.0 encoding=yourChosenCharset ? That's the XML declaration, which forms part of the XML Prolog.The XMLProlog is always present and comprises the XML declaration, PIs and theDOCTYPE (although all of those parts are optional in XML 1.0) Ahhh, thanks for the clarification. I should state here I guess that not only did this take all week to write, but it was (and always will be) a learning curve too. # Only five named character entities are "safe": lt;, gt;, amp;, quot; and apos;.On 4 are safe when using text/html, because apos; is undefined in HTMLand is not supported by IE.However, the article of mine that you linked to does cover that issue so it's not a major problem. Standard Generalized Markup Language (SGML) comments (!-- comment --) hide everything - including style and script tags. They're XML comments, which are based on SGML comments but still differin significant ways.I have another article which covers this issue ingreat detail.I pulled that bullet-point because I'd gotten it muddled up. I'll read up your article and word it better in an update. http://lachy.id.au/log/2005/05/script-comments # Stylesheets need to be referenced with an XML stylesheet declaration.Wrong!That's just one of the myths in the widely criticised Appendix C. This is done by creating a fragment identifier, Slightly wrong terminology, a fragment identifier only occurs in a URI(after the #) which references an ID or an anchor in an (X)HTML document. for example id="myStyle" in each lt;stylegt; tag and reference this in the XML stylesheet declaration that goes above the DOCTYPE declaration in the format: ?xml-stylesheet href=""> type=text/css ?. Note that you will need this declaration for each stylesheet.This is unnecessary because any XML UA that recognises the id attributeas an ID must be either a validating parser or be an XHTML UA, in whichcase it will already recognise both the style and link elements, making the xml-stylesheet PI unnecessary.If it is a validating parser, butnot an XHTML UA, the stylesheet would do much good anyway, because therewouldn't be any default UA stylesheet which would likely be depended upon for the styles to work properly.There I was wondering how to send stylesheets via that PHP script (I don't actually know PHP lol) and it's actually optional(?) (ie) it would be better to write Stylesheets may be referenced with an XML stylesheet. Lastly, there's one more issue that wasn't discussed which should have at least been mentioned.By serving application/xhtml+xml, Mozillacannot yet incrementally render the document.It is a browserlimitation, there's nothing in the spec that prevents incrementalrendering in implementations, but it still needs to be considered for practical reasons.If you have time, could you explain incrementally render please? --Lachlan Hunthttp://lachy.id.au/Feel free to add stuff to the comments, especially if you can link in a resource for further reference. It's a MIME field out there (sorry) and the article is an attempt to pull together a justified how-to for future projects as well as bring a few people with me without diving too deep into specs. I'll do an update later today because clarity of summary is very important.Many Thanks!-- Karl DawsonCrusader for Web Standards and Accessibility http://www.thatstandardsguy.co.uk--Accessites Team Member - http://www.accessites.org/ --The power of the Web is in its universality. Access by everyone regardless of disability is an essential aspect.Tim Berners-Lee - W3C Director and inventor of the World Wide Web
Re: [WSG] Article: MIME and Content Negotiation
Lachlan Hunt wrote: [snip]
Did you read my article [1] which Rimantas referred you to? That
explains what you're supposed to do. You need to use real HTTP
headers, not the inferior meta element. The end of that article links
to another that actually explains how to set the charset parameter in
the HTTP headers using various servers and server-side scripting
languages [2].
Well Lachlan, not only did I read it, I printed it out and read it in
bed at around 1.50am! (now that's keen!)
However, I remain confused in the particular case of the PHP approach.
The PHP looks to see
if(stristr($_SERVER[HTTP_ACCEPT],application/xhtml+xml)) and on
that basis it describes the appropriate prolog, mimetype and charset. So
the final three lines of the php code (where the action takes place :-)
are:
header(Content-Type: $mime; charset=$charset);
header(Vary: Accept);
print $prolog_type;
One therefore assumes that the 'real http headers' ARE being used in
this case. However, if I do that I can only get Chinese unless I get
PHP to echo the meta tag:
?php
if ($mime == application/xhtml+xml)
{
echo meta http-equiv=\Content-Type\
content=\application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8\ /;
}
else
{
echometa http-equiv=\Content-Type\ content=\text/html;
charset=utf-8\/;
}
?
And I'm confused, because (if I've understood it properly) this should
not be required?
--
Best Regards,
Bob McClelland
Cornwall (UK)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Article: MIME and Content Negotiation
At 04:02 AM 1/16/2006, Lachlan Hunt wrote: (The charset parameter is only really needed for text/* media types, for XML served with an application/* media type, the XML declaration is recommended for use instead which may be omitted for UTF-8 and UTF-16) http://lachy.id.au/log/2006/01/content-type For clarification, was your first clause above a sentence in its own right? I assume you meant, (The charset parameter is only really needed for text/* media types. For XML served with an application/* media type, the XML declaration is recommended for use instead which may be omitted for UTF-8 and UTF-16). Thanks very much for the article, Lachlan. Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Article: MIME and Content Negotiation
"Comments, especially error-spotting and general "bravo" very welcome" One minor inaccuracy. The article written by Neil Crosby is based on an article I wrote in October of the previous year. Oddly enough, it was Russ Weakely who badgered me into writing it in the first place. Simon Jessey Business Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Personal Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Business Site: http://keystonewebsites.com/ Personal Site: http://jessey.net/
Re: [WSG] Article: MIME and Content Negotiation
Paul Novitski wrote: At 04:02 AM 1/16/2006, Lachlan Hunt wrote: (The charset parameter is only really needed for text/* media types, for XML served with an application/* media type, the XML declaration is recommended for use instead which may be omitted for UTF-8 and UTF-16) http://lachy.id.au/log/2006/01/content-type For clarification, was your first clause above a sentence in its own right? I assume you meant, (The charset parameter is only really needed for text/* media types. For XML served with an application/* media type... Yes, that's correct. It was just a typo. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Article: MIME and Content Negotiation
On 16 Jan 2006, at 11:53 pm, designer wrote: However, I remain confused in the particular case of the PHP approach. The PHP looks to see if(stristr($_SERVER [HTTP_ACCEPT],application/xhtml+xml)) and on that basis it describes the appropriate prolog, mimetype and charset. So the final three lines of the php code (where the action takes place :-) are: header(Content-Type: $mime; charset=$charset); header(Vary: Accept); print $prolog_type; That sounds very weird. Either your browser is acting up or something is not properly configured, or your server is doing something odd on the way. Is the $charset var set up correctly ? (near the top of the code) It should read: $charset = utf-8; Philippe --- Philippe Wittenbergh http://emps.l-c-n.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Article: MIME and Content Negotiation
designer wrote: However, I remain confused in the particular case of the PHP approach. The PHP looks to see if(stristr($_SERVER[HTTP_ACCEPT],application/xhtml+xml)) and on that basis it describes the appropriate prolog, mimetype and charset. So the final three lines of the php code (where the action takes place :-) are: header(Content-Type: $mime; charset=$charset); header(Vary: Accept); print $prolog_type; One therefore assumes that the 'real http headers' ARE being used in this case. However, if I do that I can only get Chinese unless I get PHP to echo the meta tag: Can you please make up a small sample document that clearly demonstrates this issue occurring and post a URI so that we may see it. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] IE5.5 indenting list items
A link to online sample of this problem, stripped back to just the problem area, and a link to the stripped back css file would help a lot. Thanks Russ ... Thanks Russ, I set up a stripped back test page as suggested and managed to fix the problem. I had the ul set to width:100% and the li set to display:block. Removing width on the UL fixed it. I left the broken test page online in case anyone using IE5Win wants to see the effect. http://cif-dev.opc.com.au/test-menu.html Thanks again Glen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
