[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: [SPAM BAYESIAN] - digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org - Bayesian Filter detected spam
I am out of the office until Monday March 12th. Please call the office on 0208 780 6350 if it's urgent. NEWS: BUSINESS MONITOR INTERNATIONAL LAUNCH 10 NEW SITES! eShopworks are pleased to announce the launch of 10 new sites for specialist business information publisher Business Monitor International (BMI) - all powered by a single WORKSsitebuilder implementation. The new sites have been designed and built with customer conversion as the key driver and feature market leading trial and subscription management functionality. BMI are able to configure and report on free and paid trials and create supporting emails for the 44 weekly and monthly publications that the network of sites promote. Advanced member management, access rules and blacklisting provide BMI with the necessary tools to protect the high value of their published content. Visit http://www.latinamericamonitor.com to find out more. --- This email was obviously intended for the people named in the message. It may be confidential and/or legally privileged. If you have received it by mistake, please take no action based on it, copy it, or show it to anyone - just delete it and let us know about the error. Also, we should point out that any opinions expressed are not necessarily those of eShopworks. Unfortunately email cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free and thus this email should not be construed as a solicitation for, or offer of contract. If verification is required please ask us for a hard-copy. And finally, while we've scanned this email on 3/3/2007 to make sure it is virus free to be on the safe side we recommend that you also scan it with your own antivirus software. --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Suzanne, I've set you to nomail. Please feel free to reset this once you return to your desk. You might also consider rethinking your footer - its horribly spammie and you may well find your domain now has some spam reports against it, as this list has such a wide subscribership :( warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot WSG Core Member BCC: Core On Sat, 3 Mar 2007 06:56:20 -, Suzanne Malyon wrote: I am out of the office until Monday March 12th. Please call the office on 0208 780 6350 if it's urgent. NEWS: BUSINESS MONITOR INTERNATIONAL LAUNCH 10 NEW SITES! eShopworks are pleased to announce the launch of 10 new sites for specialist business information publisher Business Monitor International (BMI) - all powered by a single WORKSsitebuilder implementation. The new sites have been designed and built with customer conversion as the key driver and feature market leading trial and subscription management functionality. BMI are able to configure and report on free and paid trials and create supporting emails for the 44 weekly and monthly publications that the network of sites promote. Advanced member management, access rules and blacklisting provide BMI with the necessary tools to protect the high value of their published content. Visit http://www.latinamericamonitor.com to find out more. --- This email was obviously intended for the people named in the message. It may be confidential and/or legally privileged. If you have received it by mistake, please take no action based on it, copy it, or show it to anyone - just delete it and let us know about the error. Also, we should point out that any opinions expressed are not necessarily those of eShopworks. Unfortunately email cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free and thus this email should not be construed as a solicitation for, or offer of contract. If verification is required please ask us for a hard-copy. And finally, while we've scanned this email on 3/3/2007 to make sure it is virus free to be on the safe side we recommend that you also scan it with your own antivirus software. --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] background image
Most likely it's a bug in IE, try adding position: relative to fix it. On 3/2/07, Ricky Onsman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your background doesn't show up in my IE6. Rolf and Paul's comments are both worth checking out. Ricky -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kevin mcmonagle Sent: Friday, 2 March 2007 5:49 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] background image Hi, Just one more question about this page: http://www.arena7.ie/index2.html When viewing the above page with ie6 pc can you see the diagonal striped bacground pattern? I have ie6 running locally on an old machine thats offline and its not showing up. thanks for all the help -best kvnmcwebn www.mcmonagledesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aw, crumbs! You can all pretend I copied the address into the To: field, not the Subject: field, and it went where it was supoposed to, right? :( All pointing and laughing offlist, please. Lea ~ wandering away mumbling... On Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:06:37 +1000, Lea de Groot wrote: Suzanne, I've set you to nomail. Please feel free to reset this once you return to your desk. You might also consider rethinking your footer - its horribly spammie and you may well find your domain now has some spam reports against it, as this list has such a wide subscribership :( warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot WSG Core Member BCC: Core On Sat, 3 Mar 2007 06:56:20 -, Suzanne Malyon wrote: I am out of the office until Monday March 12th. Please call the office on 0208 780 6350 if it's urgent. NEWS: BUSINESS MONITOR INTERNATIONAL LAUNCH 10 NEW SITES! eShopworks are pleased to announce the launch of 10 new sites for specialist business information publisher Business Monitor International (BMI) - all powered by a single WORKSsitebuilder implementation. The new sites have been designed and built with customer conversion as the key driver and feature market leading trial and subscription management functionality. BMI are able to configure and report on free and paid trials and create supporting emails for the 44 weekly and monthly publications that the network of sites promote. Advanced member management, access rules and blacklisting provide BMI with the necessary tools to protect the high value of their published content. Visit http://www.latinamericamonitor.com to find out more. --- This email was obviously intended for the people named in the message. It may be confidential and/or legally privileged. If you have received it by mistake, please take no action based on it, copy it, or show it to anyone - just delete it and let us know about the error. Also, we should point out that any opinions expressed are not necessarily those of eShopworks. Unfortunately email cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free and thus this email should not be construed as a solicitation for, or offer of contract. If verification is required please ask us for a hard-copy. And finally, while we've scanned this email on 3/3/2007 to make sure it is virus free to be on the safe side we recommend that you also scan it with your own antivirus software. --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] tabindex and accesskey
Sorry to go over old ground here, but I seem to remember that the general consensus of opinion on the above two was that it was best if they weren't used? However, if I try to validate using the WIA validator, my stuff validates, but the validator gives me two warnings: 9.4 Create a logical tab order through links, form controls, and objects. * Rule: 9.4.1 - All Anchor, AREA, BUTTON, INPUT, OBJECT, SELECT and TEXTAREA elements are required to use the 'tabindex' attribute. o Warning - One or more Anchor, AREA, BUTTON, INPUT, OBJECT, SELECT and TEXTAREA elements do not use the 'tabindex' attribute. Warning 9.5 Provide keyboard shortcuts to important links (including those in client-side image maps), form controls, and groups of form controls. * Rule: 9.5.1 - All Anchor, AREA, BUTTON, INPUT, LABEL, LEGEND, and TEXTAREA elements are required to use the 'accesskey' attribute. o Warning - One or more Anchor, AREA, BUTTON, INPUT, LABEL, LEGEND, and TEXTAREA elements do not use the 'accesskey' attribute. So, do I just ignore this and claim WAI OK, or . . . What do you guys do/feel about this? -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] tabindex and accesskey
Designer wrote: Sorry to go over old ground here, but I seem to remember that the general consensus of opinion on the above two was that it was best if they weren't used? However, if I try to validate using the WIA validator, I've never heard of it, and a quick Google doesn't help. my stuff validates, but the validator gives me two warnings: 9.4 Create a logical tab order through links, form controls, and objects. * Rule: 9.4.1 - All Anchor, AREA, BUTTON, INPUT, OBJECT, SELECT and TEXTAREA elements are required to use the 'tabindex' attribute. Rubbish. WCAG 1.0 says: For example, in HTML, specify tab order via the tabindex attribute or ensure a logical page design. Logical page design is the better option. Tabindex only comes into play if you're doing something fairly odd. 9.5 Provide keyboard shortcuts to important links (including those in client-side image maps), form controls, and groups of form controls. Well, technically it is a requirement of AAA level WCAG 1.0, but a lot of experts consider accesskeys to do more harm then good since they interfere with built-in keyboard shortcuts in most browsers. * Rule: 9.5.1 - All Anchor, AREA, BUTTON, INPUT, LABEL, LEGEND, and TEXTAREA elements are required to use the 'accesskey' attribute. This tool really isn't very good. WCAG says important (and they quoted it), not all. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Fwd: Doubled heights for menu in IE and a couple more
I had to change some markup. You don't need a new dl for every single
portfolio item:
h3Web Sites/h3
dl class=folio
dta href=http://waznelle.com;/aMy Personal Site/dt
dda href=/lightbox/images/folio/web_we01.jpg rel=lightbox[we]
title=My Personal Web Siteimg
src=http://designbyelle.com.au/lightbox/images/folio/web_we01_thumb.jpg;
alt=Waz and Elle's Web Site //a
a href=/lightbox/images/folio/web_we02.jpg rel=lightbox[we]
title=My Personal Web Siteimg
src=http://designbyelle.com.au/lightbox/images/folio/web_we02_thumb.jpg;
alt=Waz and Elle's Web Site class=second //a/dd
dta href=http://tokorikidiving.com/;Tokoriki Diving/a,br /
Fiji Islands/dt
dda href=/lightbox/images/folio/web_toko01.jpg rel=lightbox[toko]
title=Tokoriki Divingimg
src=http://designbyelle.com.au/lightbox/images/folio/web_toko01_thumb.jpg;
alt=Tokoriki Diving Web Site //a
a href=/lightbox/images/folio/web_toko02.jpg rel=lightbox[toko]
title=Tokoriki Divingimg
src=http://designbyelle.com.au/lightbox/images/folio/web_toko02_thumb.jpg;
alt=Tokoriki Diving Dive Sites Map class=second //a/dd
dta href=http://farmpeacelove.com/;Farm Peace and Love/a,br /
Nicaragua/dt
dda href=/lightbox/images/folio/web_fpl01.jpg rel=lightbox[fpl]
title=Farm peace Loveimg
src=http://designbyelle.com.au/lightbox/images/folio/web_fpl01_thumb.jpg;
alt=Farm Peace and Love Web Site //a
a href=/lightbox/images/folio/web_fpl02.jpg rel=lightbox[fpl]
title=Farm peace Loveimg
src=http://designbyelle.com.au/lightbox/images/folio/web_fpl02_thumb.jpg;
alt=Farm Peace and Love Web Site class=second //a/dd
/dl
I also removed the brs between the images. And then the CSS:
dl.folio { clear: both; }
dl.folio dt {
clear: both;
float: left;
width: 96px;
text-align: right;
color: #9fc057;
border-top: 1px solid #ddd;
}
dl.folio dd {
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
padding-left: 12px;
width: 412px;
float: left;
background: url('images/folio_bkg.jpg') top left no-repeat;
line-height: 0;
height: 109px;
border-top: 1px solid #ddd;
}
dl.folio img { padding: 3px 0 0 3px; }
On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 17:39:58 +1000, Elle Meredith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I also wanted to ask if you could have a look at the portfolio page and
help me make the styles for that section simpler.
I used a definition list and floated the dt and dd to the left.
This breaks in IE. Any ideas how to make it better, would be welcomed.
The site is at: http://designbyelle.com.au/
I think you need to make the dts clear: both.
Hi John,
1. I added height and line-height and my menu is fixed. Thanks.
2. The portfolio still breaks in IE. Any ideas??
TIA,
Elle
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[WSG] class targeting problem-help!- was background image
Hello,
Thanks for all the suggestion for the background image.
I have one more problem with this site.
www.arena7.ie/index2.html
click on the function room link in the far right of the top nav bar.
notice that when the link is clicked the layout breaks.
this is because the right border turned off on the class of that button
for the link state only.
like this:
#navcontainer A.room
{
background-image: url(butfunction.png);
background-repeat:repeat-x; border-right: 0px solid black;
}
How do i target the click state and all states for that matter on the
above class so i can disable the border there as well? I tried a few
different things and cant get it.
-best
kevin
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Re: [WSG] class targeting problem-help!- was background image
the quickest fix might be simply to change #header from
overflow:auto; to overflow:hidden; in structure.css which seems to
work fine at least in FF
But you've also got some likely errors to sort out in the nav.css:
#navcontainer.room A.active:link, A.active:visited
{
border-right: 0px solid black;
}
you've got the .room attached to #navcontainer instead of the
anchor; you need to repeat the #navcontainer for the second part,
and you've got .active as a class, where perhaps you mean to do
something more like a:visited:active and a:link:active (unless you
actually have a class named .active, which I didn't notice)
On Mar 3, 2007, at 4:23 AM, kevin mcmonagle wrote:
Hello,
Thanks for all the suggestion for the background image.
I have one more problem with this site.
www.arena7.ie/index2.html
click on the function room link in the far right of the top nav bar.
notice that when the link is clicked the layout breaks.
this is because the right border turned off on the class of that
button for the link state only.
like this:
#navcontainer A.room
{
background-image: url(butfunction.png);
background-repeat:repeat-x; border-right: 0px solid black;
}
How do i target the click state and all states for that matter on
the above class so i can disable the border there as well? I tried
a few different things and cant get it.
-best
kevin
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RE: [WSG] legal website policies for the UK and USA
Many thanks for accessibility ideas and other legal pointers! I always feel better when I bounce things off this list! This list ( the you in plural) is the greatest. Lisa Lisa B. McLaughlin, NCW [EMAIL PROTECTED] T: +44 (0) 1943 468624 M: +44 (0) 7835 947606 AllSpunUp Websites that work for you. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lisa B McLaughlin Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 12:16 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] legal website policies for the UK and USA Hello of band of web wizards! I am looking for a resource for current website legal requirements for the USA and UK. I did the typical Google search and found a site for the UK, but it's second-hand info. I don't have a definitive resource for the USA. Specially, I am looking to write privacy statements, legal non-mumbo-jumbo, and check current accessibility issues. I also want to be compliant of any other laws I may not know details about, such as the one about asking before you put someone's name/email on an email newsletter subscription. Any suggestions? I'm probably missing something downright obvious. Lisa Lisa B. McLaughlin, NCW [EMAIL PROTECTED] T: +44 (0) 1943 468624 M: +44 (0) 7835 947606 AllSpunUp Websites that work for you. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] link problem with absolute position
Good weekend everyone, In this page: http://lotusseeds.com/index.php Two elements are set to absolute position, one is 'skip to content' which uses background image with text link, another one is 'top' button that uses inline image . In Safari and PC IE 7 (standalone), both links are working. 'Top' is not working in Mac and PC: Opera, all Gecko based browsers; in IE 6, it's the other way around, the top' link work but not 'skip to content'. I have done quite a number of sites that us similar position (usually one of them link without image), and didn't encounter such problem. I am really running out of idea why this time it doesn't work, and why it works for Safari and IE 7 yet not the other advanced browsers? Which browsers render correctly? I have a feeling Opera and Gecko browsers are correct as I don't trust safari as much as I used to be. Apart from the answer, a tip for the fix is greatly appreciated. Regards, tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Was: Doubled-Height Now DL and Floats in IE
http://designbyelle.com.au/ I had to change some markup. You don't need a new dl for every single portfolio item:... I also removed the brs between the images. Hi John, I didn't understand what br /s you meant cause I didn't insert them and when I looked at my page through FireBug I suddenly saw them. WordPress did that for me. Anyway, they are gone:) I followed your advice and changed a couple of things and it looks pretty good. Thanks. Only now, I have a different problem. IE (6 and 7) pushes my first dd down to the level of the second dt. Other than that all is good. Any ideas? Elle *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] link problem with absolute position
Tee G. Peng wrote: http://lotusseeds.com/index.php Two elements are set to absolute position, one is 'skip to content' which uses background image with text link, another one is 'top' button that uses inline image . In Safari and PC IE 7 (standalone), both links are working. 'Top' is not working in Mac and PC: Opera, all Gecko based browsers; in IE 6, it's the other way around, the top' link work but not 'skip to content'. You should make it a little easier for yourself - and the browsers :-) You have IDs in that page, so you may as well use them as targets. Use... a href=#contentdarr; Skip to content/a ...and... a href=#wrapimg... alt=go top ... //a ...and all the mentioned browsers will agree on what to do. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] link problem with absolute position
On Mar 3, 2007, at 2:33 PM, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: You should make it a little easier for yourself - and the browsers :-) You have IDs in that page, so you may as well use them as targets. Use... a href=#contentdarr; Skip to content/a ...and... a href=#wrapimg... alt=go top ... //a ...and all the mentioned browsers will agree on what to do. Wow, Georg, I honestly, ignorantly have no idea I coud do this. A friend just told me I missed the .a name=top./a on the top, so I added it, immediately it works for Opera and Gecko broswers, but the 'skip to content' still didn't work in IE 6. Your method solved them all. Without a name=top/a Safari and IE 7 still works...hummm... these two browsers are more lenient? I always check Safari first, so when eveything works as expected, I forgot to check the markup for clue. Got to get rid of this habit. Thanks again! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] link problem with absolute position
Tee G. Peng wrote: Without a name=top/a Safari and IE 7 still works...hummm... these two browsers are more lenient? I always check Safari first, so when eveything works as expected, I forgot to check the markup for clue. Got to get rid of this habit. Don't trust a browser - any browser :-) IE6 has a problem with anchors as targets. They must have content - even an nbsp; will do. Anyway, you don't need those anchors since you have unique IDs all over the place. You can delete all those a name=(somewhere in page)/a as targets, unless you have to support some really old browsers - NN4 maybe. All major (and most minor browsers, I think) will be more than happy with using existing, or new, IDs as targets. Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Was: Doubled-Height Now DL and Floats in IE
What I gave you yesterday works fine for FF, IE and Opera:
dl.folio { clear: both; }
dl.folio dt {
clear: both;
float: left;
width: 96px;
text-align: right;
color: #9fc057;
border-top: 1px solid #ddd;
}
dl.folio dd {
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
padding-left: 12px;
width: 412px;
float: left;
background: url('images/folio_bkg.jpg') top left no-repeat;
line-height: 0;
height: 109px;
border-top: 1px solid #ddd;
}
dl.folio img { padding: 3px 0 0 3px; }
On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 08:16:25 +1000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
http://designbyelle.com.au/
snip
portfolio item:...
snip
Hi John,
I didn't understand what br /s you meant cause I didn't insert them
and when I
looked at my page through FireBug I suddenly saw them. WordPress did
that for
me. Anyway, they are gone:)
I followed your advice and changed a couple of things and it looks
pretty good.
Thanks. Only now, I have a different problem. IE (6 and 7) pushes my
first dd
down to the level of the second dt. Other than that all is good.
Any ideas?
Elle
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[WSG] It's times like this you remember how far you've come
I have the task of writing the database/dynamic stuff behind an e-commerce site. The design work and static pages are done by a professional design web dev house in Brisbane, and yesterday I got hold of their work. My job now is to merge their stuff with the shopping cart and other components I've written. And it's now I see how far I've come with my web dev techniques. This professional design and web dev house has pages that features the following: 1. every page contains the CSS in text in the head tag, not in a linked style sheet. 2. every page uses tables for layout. 3. all the tables are nested to multiple levels 4. many of the cells or tr tags have styles inline, or they use the bgcolor attribute (not consistently either way) 5. javascript is both typed at the top of the page in the head and also inline, scattered throughout the page. 6. no ULs anywhere. The navigation is also nested tables. 7. there is no doctype. 8. the code is scattered all over the page which tells me this professional dev studio doesn’t look at their code at all, only uses wysiwyg tools. 9. they uploaded the code so EVERYTHING goes in the root level of the site, no folders at all except they did put the images into an images folder, so you have to give them half a point for that. Now I have to work my own stuff into this site, and it's proving much more difficult than with my own work. My own code is organised, it's laid out on the page, commented and indented, I use includes to keep the elements of code separated and easy to find, and I don’t have any nested tables anywhere. In fact I haven’t used tables for anything except tabular data for 18 months now. This code just looks old fashioned and amateur. It's inaccessible, and difficult to maintain. Their page weight is about three times what it needs to be because the javascript and styles are downloaded with each page view, and the nested tables add enormously to the code weight. I resent the fact that this professional design house has accepted cash-type money from my client to design the public side of the web site and produced such a shoddy job. Not only that, I have to work inside it, to make all my work function in this dogs-breakfast of a mess. Now I see how far I have come in my development. My own sites have much smaller pages for the same content, they load faster, they're far more efficient, accessible, and easy to maintain than this pile of spaghetti. Now I have to decide whether I want to spend some of my own time now redoing their work, thereby easing the road for myself down the track, or because I wont get paid for that, just go along with it and work with it. Just venting. Thanks for being patient with me. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.6/709 - Release Date: 3/03/2007 8:12 AM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] It's times like this you remember how far you've come
Well just so you know Michael, you're not the only one who's had dealings with some Brisbane web dev cowboys. :( On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 14:44:13 +1000, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have the task of writing the database/dynamic stuff behind an e-commerce site. The design work and static pages are done by a professional design web dev house in Brisbane, and yesterday I got hold of their work. My job now is to merge their stuff with the shopping cart and other components I've written. And it's now I see how far I've come with my web dev techniques. This professional design and web dev house has pages that features the following: 1. every page contains the CSS in text in the head tag, not in a linked style sheet. 2. every page uses tables for layout. 3. all the tables are nested to multiple levels 4. many of the cells or tr tags have styles inline, or they use the bgcolor attribute (not consistently either way) 5. javascript is both typed at the top of the page in the head and also inline, scattered throughout the page. 6. no ULs anywhere. The navigation is also nested tables. 7. there is no doctype. 8. the code is scattered all over the page which tells me this professional dev studio doesn’t look at their code at all, only uses wysiwyg tools. 9. they uploaded the code so EVERYTHING goes in the root level of the site, no folders at all except they did put the images into an images folder, so you have to give them half a point for that. Now I have to work my own stuff into this site, and it's proving much more difficult than with my own work. My own code is organised, it's laid out on the page, commented and indented, I use includes to keep the elements of code separated and easy to find, and I don’t have any nested tables anywhere. In fact I haven’t used tables for anything except tabular data for 18 months now. This code just looks old fashioned and amateur. It's inaccessible, and difficult to maintain. Their page weight is about three times what it needs to be because the javascript and styles are downloaded with each page view, and the nested tables add enormously to the code weight. I resent the fact that this professional design house has accepted cash-type money from my client to design the public side of the web site and produced such a shoddy job. Not only that, I have to work inside it, to make all my work function in this dogs-breakfast of a mess. Now I see how far I have come in my development. My own sites have much smaller pages for the same content, they load faster, they're far more efficient, accessible, and easy to maintain than this pile of spaghetti. Now I have to decide whether I want to spend some of my own time now redoing their work, thereby easing the road for myself down the track, or because I wont get paid for that, just go along with it and work with it. Just venting. Thanks for being patient with me. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
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[WSG] Prashanth has Tagged you! :)
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[WSG] Prashanth has Tagged you! :)
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Re: [WSG] It's times like this you remember how far you've come
On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 15:47:15 +1000, John Faulds wrote: Well just so you know Michael, you're not the only one who's had dealings with some Brisbane web dev cowboys. :( Now, now - don't slag the city for the actions of a few :-P John, I realise you am just venting, but you should not be reworking someone else's markup on your own time. You should be approaching your client and explaining that you have some problems with the markup thats been supplied to you and its going to take longer than you anticipated, because you had assumed that the other contractor would be supplying professional work. No problem, but you'll need more $$ (or whatever the deal is for) Be professional, but my favourite metaphor involves something about a model-T Ford and a modern Camry :) warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems *cough*Brisbane*cough*, Australia *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] It's times like this you remember how far you've come
In fact, I'd say this is a common experience. HOWEVER, I have found that tackling it head-on, correcting the shoddy work and demonstrating the benefits to the client DOES pay off. I have acquired at least four monthly-retainer-paying type clients that way, one of whom has been with me for five years now. I have also had a few clients who've said they don't really care about it, and that's their call. None of them have turned into long term clients. Ricky Onsman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Faulds Sent: Sunday, 4 March 2007 4:47 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] It's times like this you remember how far you've come Well just so you know Michael, you're not the only one who's had dealings with some Brisbane web dev cowboys. :( On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 14:44:13 +1000, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have the task of writing the database/dynamic stuff behind an e-commerce site. The design work and static pages are done by a professional design web dev house in Brisbane, and yesterday I got hold of their work. My job now is to merge their stuff with the shopping cart and other components I've written. And it's now I see how far I've come with my web dev techniques. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] It's times like this you remember how far you've come
On 04/03/2007, at 3:44 PM, Michael Kear wrote: I resent the fact that this professional design house has accepted cash-type money from my client to design the public side of the web site and produced such a shoddy job. Not only that, I have to work inside it, to make all my work function in this dogs-breakfast of a mess. I am continually amazed at the poor level of knowledge of standards (and more importantly IMHO, semantics) in Australian web houses - especially from corporate shops. Something I realized while working at a medium-sized dev house was that a lot of the time simple tasks like HTML/CSS work are given to students or people without a lot of experience in the field. I suppose it simple and cost effective to have Joe Web Wizzard Bloggs to chop up a site in Dreamweaver and pass it off as finished work, and stakeholders often won't recognize (or care) if the layout was written like you described so long as it works in IE6. In fact, i've actually worked on apps that used Java println statements to output large parts of the app into tables, when most of the existing code is handled completely differently. It's is a pity when you have to fix these kinds of things :) My pet peeve is starting work on an application thats been in development for years with the hands of oh, maybe 20 different programmers that all use different coding styles, strange unstandard methods of doing things (for example, using Javascript to submit forms when a normal submit would work fine.). Oh, and Hi to everyone on the list, I've been reading it for a few weeks now and thought I might join the conversation, if thats okay with you guys :) Have a good weekend, -- Jake Tracey http://www.jaketracey.com p. +61410676643 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] skype. jaketracey *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
