Re: [WSG] iphone should not be part of your url
On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 5:24 PM, Matthew Pennell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 3:11 AM, Andrew Boyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't see what difference it makes - if someone chooses to create a mobile-device-friendly version of their site and publish it under a separate URL (as opposed to the elegant way - that is, using a mobile-device-friendly stylesheet) then that is probably their business. I know it's not what Lars meant, but I just have to challenge the notion that the elegant (and presumably proper) way to serve mobile devices is with a mobile stylesheet on your regular site. Mobile web use is all about context - visitors don't need your entire site, they need a subset of it (or new content) that is useful for them in the context of use on the go. To that end, you either sniff for devices and/or serve mobile content on a different URL. Matt, without seeming to be starting an argument, have you ever designed for mobile devices? I have done so twice, and both times, it was important to the clients (both in government) that the content was the same for large format and mobile users. Both had specific reasons for doing so, and in both cases there was the potential for serious consequences if less than the full story was given. Happy to discuss. Cheers, Andrew --- Andrew Boyd http://onblogging.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Centered List
Hi David or anyone else that can help,
I have tested the CSS that you gave me, on the actual site and it works fine on
Safari, Opera and Firefox 3 but Firefox 2 displays like this:
http://www.datadial.net/test/firefox-2.gif
Opera like this:
http://www.datadial.net/test/opera.gif
Do you or anyone else have any clues as to what may be causing this, or what
the solution may be??
Tyrone
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Owens
Sent: 14 July 2008 17:48
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Centered List
2008/7/14 Tyrone Joseph [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Thanks for your reply but this doesn't solve my problem as the size list
will be controlled by a CMS. This means that there may be times when there
are 7 options and there may be times when are 3 options.
I somehow need to center the li elements without affecting other textual
content within the containing div. I am trying by best to keep the HTML
clean and I don't want to add any unnecessary divs within the main div.
Hi Tyrone,
I've been playing around for this, and have a pretty good looking
solution for you.
ul
lia href=#one/a/li
li
two
a href=#sold out/a
/li
lia href=#three/a/li
/ul
ul {
margin: 0;
text-align: center;
}
li {
display: inline-block;
border: 1px solid black;
padding: 5px;
margin: 5px;
vertical-align: top;
}
a {
display: block;
}
Plus you will need to send this to IE, preferably using conditional comments:
li {
zoom: 1;
display: inline;
}
Works in FF, IE 5.5, 6 and 7, Opera 9.5 and Safari 3 on PC. I haven't
looked at anything on a Mac yet.
Regards
David
http://fineartdavid.com
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Re: [WSG] Centered List
Hi,
I had forgotten that inline-block wasn't supported in FF2.
If you add this to the li style, it should help. You may need to play
about with the padding a bit too.
display: -moz-groupbox;
Make sure it goes before the display: inline-block; so that it is
over-ridden in versions of FF which support inline-block. Other
browsers will ignore any moz- styles anyway.
ul li {
display: -moz-groupbox;
display: inline-block;
vertical-align: top;
}
It's a bit of a dirty hack, and I tried a couple of other Mozilla
specific extensions (, but this seemed to work the best.
David
2008/7/22 Tyrone Joseph [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Hi David or anyone else that can help,
I have tested the CSS that you gave me, on the actual site and it works fine
on Safari, Opera and Firefox 3 but Firefox 2 displays like this:
http://www.datadial.net/test/firefox-2.gif
Opera like this:
http://www.datadial.net/test/opera.gif
Do you or anyone else have any clues as to what may be causing this, or what
the solution may be??
Tyrone
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Owens
Sent: 14 July 2008 17:48
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Centered List
2008/7/14 Tyrone Joseph [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Thanks for your reply but this doesn't solve my problem as the size list
will be controlled by a CMS. This means that there may be times when there
are 7 options and there may be times when are 3 options.
I somehow need to center the li elements without affecting other textual
content within the containing div. I am trying by best to keep the HTML
clean and I don't want to add any unnecessary divs within the main div.
Hi Tyrone,
I've been playing around for this, and have a pretty good looking
solution for you.
ul
lia href=#one/a/li
li
two
a href=#sold out/a
/li
lia href=#three/a/li
/ul
ul {
margin: 0;
text-align: center;
}
li {
display: inline-block;
border: 1px solid black;
padding: 5px;
margin: 5px;
vertical-align: top;
}
a {
display: block;
}
Plus you will need to send this to IE, preferably using conditional comments:
li {
zoom: 1;
display: inline;
}
Works in FF, IE 5.5, 6 and 7, Opera 9.5 and Safari 3 on PC. I haven't
looked at anything on a Mac yet.
Regards
David
http://fineartdavid.com
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RE: [WSG] Centered List
Spot on!
That worked a treat, thank you :-)
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Owens
Sent: 22 July 2008 13:16
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Centered List
Hi,
I had forgotten that inline-block wasn't supported in FF2.
If you add this to the li style, it should help. You may need to play
about with the padding a bit too.
display: -moz-groupbox;
Make sure it goes before the display: inline-block; so that it is
over-ridden in versions of FF which support inline-block. Other
browsers will ignore any moz- styles anyway.
ul li {
display: -moz-groupbox;
display: inline-block;
vertical-align: top;
}
It's a bit of a dirty hack, and I tried a couple of other Mozilla
specific extensions (, but this seemed to work the best.
David
2008/7/22 Tyrone Joseph [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Hi David or anyone else that can help,
I have tested the CSS that you gave me, on the actual site and it works fine
on Safari, Opera and Firefox 3 but Firefox 2 displays like this:
http://www.datadial.net/test/firefox-2.gif
Opera like this:
http://www.datadial.net/test/opera.gif
Do you or anyone else have any clues as to what may be causing this, or what
the solution may be??
Tyrone
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Owens
Sent: 14 July 2008 17:48
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Centered List
2008/7/14 Tyrone Joseph [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Thanks for your reply but this doesn't solve my problem as the size list
will be controlled by a CMS. This means that there may be times when there
are 7 options and there may be times when are 3 options.
I somehow need to center the li elements without affecting other textual
content within the containing div. I am trying by best to keep the HTML
clean and I don't want to add any unnecessary divs within the main div.
Hi Tyrone,
I've been playing around for this, and have a pretty good looking
solution for you.
ul
lia href=#one/a/li
li
two
a href=#sold out/a
/li
lia href=#three/a/li
/ul
ul {
margin: 0;
text-align: center;
}
li {
display: inline-block;
border: 1px solid black;
padding: 5px;
margin: 5px;
vertical-align: top;
}
a {
display: block;
}
Plus you will need to send this to IE, preferably using conditional comments:
li {
zoom: 1;
display: inline;
}
Works in FF, IE 5.5, 6 and 7, Opera 9.5 and Safari 3 on PC. I haven't
looked at anything on a Mac yet.
Regards
David
http://fineartdavid.com
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Re: [WSG] Mobile graded browser support
As a slight update to this discussion, Opera has just had a timely release of our Mobile Browser Report [1]. A short digest: 9 out of the 10 top handsets in the US are Blackberry, with 4 out of 10 in the UK. The only other country that featured a Blackberry device was Germany with 2 out of 10. Globally, apart from the US and UK, Nokia dominates along with Sony Ericsson. Samsung is strong is South Africa. Motorola are conspicuous by their absence (they only feature once in the top ten model list for the top 10 countries where Opera Mini is the most popular). Palm is now also absent. They used to be strong in the UK and US, and possibly still are with business users (I see them a lot at conferences still), but the lack of a JVM by default hampers the install rate of Java based browsers. In June Opera Mini had 14.5 million unique users (Summer months are typically quiet due to summer holidays), and 3.2 billion web pages. The list of phones should give you a good idea of what kind of phones to test on and design for, as millions of users are represented by these models. Japan is a popular mobile market, but Opera doesn't supply Opera Mini there, so there is no data. We only distribute Opera Mobile (our biggest partner KDDI - second biggest operator in Japan - calls this PC Site Viewer) in Japan due to the proliferation of high end handsets and fast data rates. [1] http://www.opera.com/mobile_report/2008/06/ On 21 Jul 2008, at 16:53, Ted Drake wrote: FYI: David Storey is one of the lead engineers of Opera Browser. It’s a rare honor to have a browser architect reflect on the industry in mailing lists. Do you see similar responses from Firefox, Safari, or IE architects? So, keep his suggestions in mind, he knows what he’s talking about. I just wanted to make sure people realized the relevance of his comments. You may want to go back and restore any of his messages that were deleted and save them for future use. Ted *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** David Storey Chief Web Opener, Product Manager Opera Dragonfly, Consumer Product Manager Opera Core, Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group member Consumer Product Management Developer Relations Opera Software ASA Oslo, Norway Mobile: +47 94 22 02 32 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog: http://my.opera.com/dstorey *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Select for menus
Hi, I'm working on a job for a Brazilian university, and we should put on the page a menu with links for others government websites. See an example : http://www.radiobras.gov.br/estatico/ the yellow bar in the top have a select menu. Should I use ul or follow the other sites and use the select? -- []'s - Rochester Oliveira Web Designer Itajubá - MG - Brasil *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Select for menus
As far as I am aware the select option on a drop down list use's Javascript to make it into a jump menu. If you want to cater to the wider audience I would say using ul and CSS would be a much better option. Maybe have the jump menu but have the javascript de-grade if a users haven't got it and show a drop down menu with CSS? Just an idea. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rochester oliveira Sent: 22 July 2008 19:46 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Select for menus Hi, I'm working on a job for a Brazilian university, and we should put on the page a menu with links for others government websites. See an example : http://www.radiobras.gov.br/estatico/ the yellow bar in the top have a select menu. Should I use ul or follow the other sites and use the select? -- []'s - Rochester Oliveira Web Designer Itajubá - MG - Brasil *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.5.4/1566 - Release Date: 22/07/2008 06:00 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Select for menus
Aloha Jaça/Rochester In terms of usability believe that it is better to use ul The standard for government sites in Brazil is select []'s Maurivan Luiz Em 22/07/2008, às 15:46, Rochester oliveira escreveu: Hi, I'm working on a job for a Brazilian university, and we should put on the page a menu with links for others government websites. See an example : http://www.radiobras.gov.br/estatico/ the yellow bar in the top have a select menu. Should I use ul or follow the other sites and use the select? -- []'s - Rochester Oliveira Web Designer Itajubá - MG - Brasil *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Maurivan Luiz O Montador de sites Midiaweb - Interactive Agency +55 41 3362 5858 www.midiaweb.com.br [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Select for menus
Hi maurinerd! Thanks :) But the standard for Brazil is not the w3c, which should I follow? Hi Essential eBiz Solutions I'm aware the users don't recognize the menu with ul as the same menu of others sites. Maybe I could make it with the same arrow of the select.. It would be better than use a select, and the users will recognize it :) And Javascript will make the behavior (non-obtrusive for sure) Thank you []'s 2008/7/22 Mauryva Das - Midiaweb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Aloha Jaça/Rochester In terms of usability believe that it is better to use ul The standard for government sites in Brazil is select []'s Maurivan Luiz Em 22/07/2008, às 15:46, Rochester oliveira escreveu: Hi, I'm working on a job for a Brazilian university, and we should put on the page a menu with links for others government websites. See an example : http://www.radiobras.gov.br/estatico/ the yellow bar in the top have a select menu. Should I use ul or follow the other sites and use the select? -- []'s - Rochester Oliveira Web Designer Itajubá - MG - Brasil *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Maurivan Luiz O Montador de sites Midiaweb - Interactive Agency +55 41 3362 5858 www.midiaweb.com.br [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- []'s - Rochester Oliveira Web Designer Itajubá - MG - Brasil *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Select for menus
Hi again Jaça; I quoted the example of default on government sites here in Brazil. The site is for a public university? Cool! best regards; Maurivan Luiz. Em 22/07/2008, às 16:41, Rochester oliveira escreveu: Hi maurinerd! Thanks :) But the standard for Brazil is not the w3c, which should I follow? Hi Essential eBiz Solutions I'm aware the users don't recognize the menu with ul as the same menu of others sites. Maybe I could make it with the same arrow of the select.. It would be better than use a select, and the users will recognize it :) And Javascript will make the behavior (non-obtrusive for sure) Thank you []'s 2008/7/22 Mauryva Das - Midiaweb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Aloha Jaça/Rochester In terms of usability believe that it is better to use ul The standard for government sites in Brazil is select []'s Maurivan Luiz Em 22/07/2008, às 15:46, Rochester oliveira escreveu: Hi, I'm working on a job for a Brazilian university, and we should put on the page a menu with links for others government websites. See an example : http://www.radiobras.gov.br/estatico/ the yellow bar in the top have a select menu. Should I use ul or follow the other sites and use the select? -- []'s - Rochester Oliveira Web Designer Itajubá - MG - Brasil *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Maurivan Luiz O Montador de sites Midiaweb - Interactive Agency +55 41 3362 5858 www.midiaweb.com.br [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- []'s - Rochester Oliveira Web Designer Itajubá - MG - Brasil *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Maurivan Luiz O Montador de sites Midiaweb - Interactive Agency +55 41 3362 5858 www.midiaweb.com.br [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Javascript to change pages web standards question
So here is a question. Was recently fixing some errors on a site I took over. We have a page that produces a list of accounts and limits it to x number of people per page. Then we have another form element that chooses which page of data we view. Javascript is used so when we change the element from page 1 to page 2 it calls a php script that does a new query for the next x number of people and displays the results on that page. In this case its an intranet app so I know everyone will have a mouse and javascript enabled but how would you code if you wanted to go to web standards and have a fallback. -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Select for menus
A drop down list with a Go button is better than a jump menu for accessibility standards. If a user [can't use a mouse and] has to use the arrow keys for navigating the menu you will find that jump menus tend to open the second option automatically (i.e. when the user first uses the arrow key) and this prevents the user from selecting the option they want. On Tue, July 22, 2008 8:03 pm, Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd wrote: As far as I am aware the select option on a drop down list use's Javascript to make it into a jump menu. If you want to cater to the wider audience I would say using ul and CSS would be a much better option. Maybe have the jump menu but have the javascript de-grade if a users haven't got it and show a drop down menu with CSS? Just an idea. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rochester oliveira Sent: 22 July 2008 19:46 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Select for menus Hi, I'm working on a job for a Brazilian university, and we should put on the page a menu with links for others government websites. See an example : http://www.radiobras.gov.br/estatico/ the yellow bar in the top have a select menu. Should I use ul or follow the other sites and use the select? -- []'s - Rochester Oliveira Web Designer Itajubá - MG - Brasil *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.5.4/1566 - Release Date: 22/07/2008 06:00 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Javascript to change pages web standards question
Though really I'm not sure why you need javascript at all for this particular application. It would be much easier to just ditch the javascript, and code straight standards compliance. You would lose nothing, since the javascript you're proposing adds nothing. (unless I'm misunderstanding, you're using javascript to replicate the functionality of a link? Why?) This is coming from someone who loves javascript. Nevertheless, here's how I'd do it: modify the php script to take a url ? parameter called something like ahah. When the parameter is not present, render the whole page, with the template and everything, along with the appropriate content from the provided page number. When ahah is set to true, render the content without the template, for the benefit of the javascript. Code the javascript so it attaches the appropriate javascript function call to the onclick of the next page link, and remember to return false from that function to suppress the natural link behavior. In the function call the javascript is to pass the ahah parameter set to true when it retrieves the results of the php script. Then the php script would render without the template, in a format that you can easily insert into the dom of the current page. Then use a JS library called Really Simple History to push in a new history state for that state change. That way you're not breaking the back button or the bookmark button. Remember also to code your javascript to save its state in a hash, that is the part of the URL that comes after #, which is accessable from window.location.hash. Really Simple History will probably help you do that. On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 7:27 AM, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So here is a question. Was recently fixing some errors on a site I took over. We have a page that produces a list of accounts and limits it to x number of people per page. Then we have another form element that chooses which page of data we view. Javascript is used so when we change the element from page 1 to page 2 it calls a php script that does a new query for the next x number of people and displays the results on that page. In this case its an intranet app so I know everyone will have a mouse and javascript enabled but how would you code if you wanted to go to web standards and have a fallback. -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Javascript to change pages web standards question
Oops, I missed the bit about the form element. In that case, everything I just said, except add a Submit button to your original form element, and an action set to the path of your php script, and the method set to get, the name of your paging element set to match the name of the parameter that the PHP script accepts, and the values of the parameters set to match the values the script accepts. with the javascript, you can remove the submit button, and attach your function to the on change. Or you could ditch the javascript and the form element and just use A tags for your page interlinking. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
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