RE: [WSG] best practices for using access keys

[Thierry Koblentz]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Michael MD
> Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 8:03 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] best practices for using access keys
> 
> >
> > May be a better approach would be to use a script that lets the user
"turn
> > accesskeys on".
> 
> If you are talking about any kind of client side scripting, such as
> javascript that is a big no-no ... as very few phones are likely to
support
> it!


No, it'd be server-side (as the solution I posted earlier).


-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com






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RE: [WSG] Copycat site

[Kepler Gelotte]

> This is the first time I've come across such an occurence naturally in  
> the online world.

> I'm sure it happens all the time - this one seems just blatant to the  
> point of having the same tabs in the navigation

I have to agree they look similar but certainly aren't copies of each other.
A bigger issue (at least in my eyes) is that is you turn images off,
navigation (on foryoung.com), links and headings disappear. 


Best regards,

Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904



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TITLE:Web Designer
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TEL;WORK;FAX:(732) 302-0904
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Re: [WSG] Copycat site

[cf]

Yes Adam, you're right - I will remember that for future posts...

Maybe you can remember your social graces when replying.

Quoting Adam Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


...and this is related to web standards how?
I don't mind these posts - but please mark them [OT]

- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 10:57 AM
Subject: [WSG] Copycat site


This is the first time I've come across such an occurence naturally  
 in the online world.


I'm sure it happens all the time - this one seems just blatant to   
the  point of having the same tabs in the navigation


www.foryoung.com
COPY OF
www.webdesignerwall.com

___
Christian Fagan
Fagan Design
fagandesign.com.au


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Re: [WSG] best practices for using access keys

[Michael MD]

May be a better approach would be to use a script that lets the user "turn
accesskeys on".


If you are talking about any kind of client side scripting, such as 
javascript that is a big no-no ... as very few phones are likely to support 
it!


yes the iPhone can do javascript and to a limited extent Opera Lite (as in 
running on their server rather than on the phone iteself)...
but is there much else? ... those would probably currently account for only 
a very tiny fraction of real-world mobile traffic.


... and can I trust EVERY phone browser to completely ignore scripting that 
it doesn't support?
...without the resources to test on a wide variety of phones I take the 
route of caution - though I can see myself probably having to install WURFL 
eventually
(a database of known phone models and their capabilities - browser sniffing 
taken to the extreme!)






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Re: [WSG] Copycat site

[Jeff Reid]

Actually the foryoung.com is a template.  I just fownloaded it last night 
for myself.


Jeff


- Original Message - 
From: "Rick Faircloth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 9:38 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Copycat site



I don't think so...if you look through the webdesignerwall.com site,
you'll see that the author has posted tutorials about how to create
just such a menu.

If anything, the designer of foryoung.com has paid a compliment to the
author of webdesignerwall. by using the tutorial...

Rick


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
Behalf Of

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 8:58 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Copycat site

This is the first time I've come across such an occurence naturally in
the online world.

I'm sure it happens all the time - this one seems just blatant to the
point of having the same tabs in the navigation

www.foryoung.com
COPY OF
www.webdesignerwall.com

___
Christian Fagan
Fagan Design
fagandesign.com.au





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RE: [WSG] Copycat site

[Rick Faircloth]

I don't think so...if you look through the webdesignerwall.com site,
you'll see that the author has posted tutorials about how to create
just such a menu.

If anything, the designer of foryoung.com has paid a compliment to the
author of webdesignerwall. by using the tutorial...

Rick

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 8:58 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: [WSG] Copycat site
> 
> This is the first time I've come across such an occurence naturally in
> the online world.
> 
> I'm sure it happens all the time - this one seems just blatant to the
> point of having the same tabs in the navigation
> 
> www.foryoung.com
> COPY OF
> www.webdesignerwall.com
> 
> ___
> Christian Fagan
> Fagan Design
> fagandesign.com.au




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Re: [WSG] Copycat site

[Adam Martin]

...and this is related to web standards how?
I don't mind these posts - but please mark them [OT]

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 10:57 AM
Subject: [WSG] Copycat site


This is the first time I've come across such an occurence naturally in  
the online world.


I'm sure it happens all the time - this one seems just blatant to the  
point of having the same tabs in the navigation


www.foryoung.com
COPY OF
www.webdesignerwall.com

___
Christian Fagan
Fagan Design
fagandesign.com.au


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[WSG] Copycat site

[cf]

This is the first time I've come across such an occurence naturally in  
the online world.


I'm sure it happens all the time - this one seems just blatant to the  
point of having the same tabs in the navigation


www.foryoung.com
COPY OF
www.webdesignerwall.com

___
Christian Fagan
Fagan Design
fagandesign.com.au


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RE: [WSG] best practices for using access keys

[Thierry Koblentz]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ben Buchanan
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 3:21 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] best practices for using access keys

> Before you add accesskeys, check out
> http://www.wcagsamurai.org/errata/errata.html#GL9 ... basically the
> errata captures best practice methodology as it evolved in the years
> after WCAG 1.0 was released. Accesskeys are problematic between
it says not to use them...
but ... what about mobile sites?
(where you might want to use keypad shortcuts for ease of use with a
very tiny mobile phone screen)
WCAG 1.0 was released in 1999 - ie. before people seriously started using
the web on mobiles - and the errata address WCAG 1.0. Realistically it's
about web pages for computers, not mobile-specific web pages.
For mobile sites, I'd look at Mobile Web Best Practices 1.0
(http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/), released just a few weeks back. Based off
a *very* quick look, it does appear to recommend/allow accesskeys, although
given that this directly conflicts with the Samurai-updated guidelines for
general web pages, I'd only use accesskeys for *dedicated* mobile sites.
If one site is doing both general web and mobile web duty, personally I'd
suggest that conflicts should be resolved in favour of general web
guidelines. At this stage, that's still doing the greatest good for the
greatest number. But I'd also expect that this point will be debated more as
the lines between mobile/general web blur further. 


May be a better approach would be to use a script that lets the user "turn
accesskeys on".


-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com






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Re: [WSG] best practices for using access keys

[Christian Montoya]

On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 10:25 PM, dwain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> i've read the following two articles and i would entertain some
> feedback on using access keys.  i'm slowly bringing my web site up to
> better accessibility standards and i have a few more things to do like
> add a skip nav link and access keys.  any other articles and resources
> would be appreciated for both subjects.
>
> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/accesskeys/
>
> http://www.sitepoint.com/article/accesskeys/

I would say that unless you have a very specific need within a web app
where you need to capture more usage options than just the standard
mouse & keyboard, don't use accesskeys. Don't use tabindex either. I
hate running into cookie-cutter weblogs and such that don't need these
things but use them anyway, making the expected use-case scenarios
very confusing.


-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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[WSG] unsubscribe

[Ben Davies]

 



> From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: WSG Digest
> Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 20:51:13 +1000
> 
> *
> WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST
> *
> 
> 
> From: MichaelMD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 23:37:04 +1000
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Google chrome...
> 
> 
> > 
> > I can't figure out why it has to load the process three times
> > in order to run.
> 
> 
> To be able to kill locked up tabs or windows without having to kill the
> browser sounds like a nice feature to me ... about time!
> 
> 
> > 
> > First i thought it felt unfinished, but then the
> > minimal design grew on me. Very uncluttered.  And drop
> > down menus consolodate a lot of screen real estate.
> > Well designed gui,  all its needs now is firebug and
> > id use it. And i like the incognito windows, thats a
> > slick feature.
> 
> I hope they fix the bug that prevents me from saving those thumbnails it
> generates.
> What use is that feature if I can't save them?
> 
> ..and yes I'll still want Firebug and Operator !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> From: David Storey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 16:09:51 +0200
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Google chrome...
> 
> 
> On 6 Sep 2008, at 04:12, Marius Milcher wrote:
> 
> > Has anyone noticed how Hotmail is 'unavailable' in Chrome??   
> > Recommending one upgrades to either: IE, FF or Safari.
> >
> > Could this be a snub by Microsoft?? Innocent browser compatability  
> > issue? What's the opinion?
> >
> > Seconds out...Round 3
> 
> They block themselves too.  Google has a history of browser sniffing  
> and blocking browsers such as Opera.  On Google groups for example,  
> they block Opera, Safari *and* Chrome when trying to change your  
> profile photo.  I'm sure there are other examples too as the block  
> Opera on many sites.  It's an example why browser sniffing is so bad.   
> Not only is it often used to block browsers that would otherwise be  
> capable, but you never know when a new browser will come out (even  
> from your own company).
> >
> >
> >
> > 2008/9/5 Michael Horowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Because that is an intentional part of the way the system is designed.
> >
> > Read the comic for all the details 
> > http://www.google.com/googlebooks/chrome/index.html
> >
> >
> > Michael Horowitz
> > Your Computer Consultant
> > http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
> > 561-394-9079
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Nancy Gill wrote:
> > One thing I have noticed today is that it creates 3 different  
> > processes in the Task Manager to run one coyp of chrome.  I have  
> > tested this several times with the Task Manager open and everytime I  
> > open the browser, I add three processes all named chrome.  They vary  
> > from 5mb to 44mb of memory usage.
> >
> > I can't figure out why it has to load the process three times in  
> > order to run.
> >
> > Nancy
> >
> > - Original Message - From: "kevin mcmonagle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > >
> > To: 
> > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 2:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: [WSG] Google chrome...
> >
> >
> > First i thought it felt unfinished, but then the minimal design grew  
> > on me. Very uncluttered.  And drop down menus consolodate a lot of  
> > screen real estate. Well designed gui,  all its needs now is firebug  
> > and id use it. And i like the incognito windows, thats a slick  
> > feature.
> >
> >
> >
> > ***
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> >
> > __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus  
> > signature database 3416 (20080904) __
> >
> > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> >
> > http://www.eset.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ***
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > --
> > Marius G. Milcher
> > Web Design & IT

Re: [WSG] best practices for using access keys

[Ben Buchanan]

> Before you add accesskeys, check out
>
> http://www.wcagsamurai.org/errata/errata.html#GL9 ... basically the
> > errata captures best practice methodology as it evolved in the years
> > after WCAG 1.0 was released. Accesskeys are problematic between
>
> it says not to use them...
> but ... what about mobile sites?
> (where you might want to use keypad shortcuts for ease of use with a
> very tiny mobile phone screen)

WCAG 1.0 was released in 1999 - ie. before people seriously started using
the web on mobiles - and the errata address WCAG 1.0. Realistically it's
about web pages for computers, not mobile-specific web pages.

For mobile sites, I'd look at Mobile Web Best Practices 1.0 (
http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/), released just a few weeks back. Based off
a *very* quick look, it does appear to recommend/allow accesskeys, although
given that this directly conflicts with the Samurai-updated guidelines for
general web pages, I'd only use accesskeys for *dedicated* mobile sites.

If one site is doing both general web and mobile web duty, personally I'd
suggest that conflicts should be resolved in favour of general web
guidelines. At this stage, that's still doing the greatest good for the
greatest number. But I'd also expect that this point will be debated more as
the lines between mobile/general web blur further.

cheers,

Ben

-- 
--- 
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


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Re: [WSG] best practices for using access keys

[MichaelMD]

> 
> Before you add accesskeys, check out
> http://www.wcagsamurai.org/errata/errata.html#GL9 ... basically the
> errata captures best practice methodology as it evolved in the years
> after WCAG 1.0 was released. Accesskeys are problematic between

it says not to use them...

but ... what about mobile sites?
(where you might want to use keypad shortcuts for ease of use with a
very tiny mobile phone screen)







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Re: [WSG] Google chrome...

[David Storey]

On 7 Sep 2008, at 04:52, MichaelMD wrote:





They block themselves too.  Google has a history of browser sniffing
and blocking browsers such as Opera.  On Google groups for example,
they block Opera, Safari *and* Chrome when trying to change your
profile photo.  I'm sure there are other examples too as the block
Opera on many sites.  It's an example why browser sniffing is so bad.
Not only is it often used to block browsers that would otherwise
be capable, but you never know when a new browser will come out (even
from your own company).


Yes its funny watching this common scenario with large organisations..
one department is often not aware of what another department is doing
until they start getting complaints from the public about something  
not

working!

...most likely it has something to do with the browser-specific
javascript quirks you are likely to come across when trying to build
those fancy drag'n'drop user interfaces.

Do they have an alternate way to change that photo that doesn't use
javascript?


The point is it works fine in Opera, Safari and Chrome, if they didn't  
have the browser sniffing there.  You can test it in Opera by masking  
the user agent as Firefox.  It's the same with the majority of the  
cases I deal with, with browser sniffing and Opera.  It just blocks a  
browser that would otherwise be capable to access the content.











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David Storey

Chief Web Opener,
Product Manager Opera Dragonfly,
Consumer Product Manager Opera Core,
W3C Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group member

Consumer Product Management & Developer Relations
Opera Software ASA
Oslo, Norway

Mobile: +47 94 22 02 32
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Blog: http://my.opera.com/dstorey








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