Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

[Rob Crowther]

On 30/12/11 17:32, coder wrote:


You just aren't getting this, are you Rob.


I beg to differ.


We're talking about what you
do if you don't know there are options.

I provided you links to advice based on research with real users, they 
advocated against opening new windows because it confuses users.  What 
is it you're not getting?


Rob


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Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

[Tom Livingston]

 

On Dec 30, 2011, at 3:39 PM, "Patrick H. Lauke"  wrote:

> On 30/12/2011 17:32, coder wrote:
>> You just aren't getting this, are you Rob. We're talking about what you
>> do if you don't know there are options.
> 
> Again, let me turn this discussion around once more. Explain to us WHY you 
> feel that it's important that your site open links in new tabs, rather than 
> putting the onus on those who advocate leaving it the hell alone and just 
> letting a link be a link (as that's what users will be used to - if they 
> don't know they can right/middle/shift-click to open a new window, they'll 
> experience the vast majority of the web in a single window...and that's how 
> they know it/like it) to explain why you SHOULDN'T pop up a new tab/window.
> 
> Or, then again...can we just let this discussion die? We've been circling 
> around the same pros and cons...and as it's a polarising issue and nobody 
> from one camp is likely to convince somebody firmly in the other camp, it's 
> fairly pointless beyond this.
> 
> P
> -- 
> Patrick H. Lauke
> __

Agreed. On CSS-D, this is what is called 'holy war territory'. List moms 
usually drop the hammer.

Sent from iOS 5

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Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

[Patrick H. Lauke]

On 30/12/2011 17:32, coder wrote:

You just aren't getting this, are you Rob. We're talking about what you
do if you don't know there are options.


Again, let me turn this discussion around once more. Explain to us WHY 
you feel that it's important that your site open links in new tabs, 
rather than putting the onus on those who advocate leaving it the hell 
alone and just letting a link be a link (as that's what users will be 
used to - if they don't know they can right/middle/shift-click to open a 
new window, they'll experience the vast majority of the web in a single 
window...and that's how they know it/like it) to explain why you 
SHOULDN'T pop up a new tab/window.


Or, then again...can we just let this discussion die? We've been 
circling around the same pros and cons...and as it's a polarising issue 
and nobody from one camp is likely to convince somebody firmly in the 
other camp, it's fairly pointless beyond this.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]

www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/
__
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
__


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[WSG] Re: WSG Digest

[Robbie Wood]

I will be out of the office from December 23rd until January 3rd 2012.

Please contact me on 0421 132 596 for any urgent matters.

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year,

Robbie


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Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

[coder]

- Original Message - 
From: "Rob Crowther" 

To: 
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external 
websites




On 30/12/2011 12:32, coder wrote:

I just wonder what the view of some 'anti-new windows' folk is towards
using tabs? I would have thought that tabs are the new 'new windows'??

They're still *my* tabs.  I'll open a new one when I want to, not when you 
want to.


Rob



You just aren't getting this, are you Rob. We're talking about what you do 
if you don't know there are options.

Bob



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Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

[Rob Crowther]

On 30/12/2011 12:32, coder wrote:

I just wonder what the view of some 'anti-new windows' folk is towards
using tabs? I would have thought that tabs are the new 'new windows'??

They're still *my* tabs.  I'll open a new one when I want to, not when 
you want to.


Rob


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Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

[Reactivo Química Visual]

With the popularization of tab based navigation, opening new windows is
much less of a hassle in desktop enviroments. It's easier keep track of
your way. In mobile systems such as tablets or mobile browsers, it still is
somewhat annoying.


2011/12/30 coder 

> I just wonder what the view of some 'anti-new windows' folk is towards
> using tabs? I would have thought that tabs are the new 'new windows'??
>
> And doesn't the popularity of tabs imply that users do like to have more
> than one page 'on the go' instead of doing a lot of back and forwarding?
>
> I am genuinely interested in your thinking on this.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
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Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

[coder]

I just wonder what the view of some 'anti-new windows' folk is towards using 
tabs? I would have thought that tabs are the new 'new windows'??


And doesn't the popularity of tabs imply that users do like to have more 
than one page 'on the go' instead of doing a lot of back and forwarding?


I am genuinely interested in your thinking on this.

Bob



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Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

[coder]

Brilliantly put Janice!

Bob 



- Original Message - 
From: "Janice Schwarz" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites



There are still many people that have not used the Internet. Or barely
use it. Not everyone works in an office. Not everyone has been able to
afford a home computer for 20 years, or 10, or even 5. Not everyone
even likes to be in front of a computer. There are many who absolutely
loathe using them.

Everyone that uses the Internet is not you. It is not *us*. We are
very different from most site visitors. They think nothing like us. I
work with those people every day, in a variety of settings.

I've been working in this field since '98 and I *still* meet people
who are using the Internet for the very first time.

My personal take is: design functionality based on your target
demographic. If it's a saavy demographic, then work with that. If it's
the general population, then about half of them can't use a computer,
or just barely can, and work around that.

Internet access and usage varies by country, province, state, economic
and educational brackets, age, and so on. Every demographic will
interact differently with a website. Users surprise us often in how
they will approach a site.
--
Janice Schwarz
GeekArtist Web Solutions, LLC
www.geekartist.com
Phone: (214) 302-7575
Twitter: GeekArtist


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[WSG] Out of Office

[mark]

I will be out of the office until January 3rd.  If you have an urgent matter 
contact Chet at c...@inetsgi.com or dial 402.330.0636 x1001.  

Thank you.




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RE: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

[Elizabeth Spiegel]

This story gives no information about whether the person referred to can or 
cannot use a browser 'efficiently'. To do her job she presumably needs to use 
the web, but there's no reason to believe that she needs to know that the user 
agent she uses to do that is called a browser, let alone that it's called 
Internet Explorer. The lack of a common vocabulary makes it difficult to 
troubleshoot, but there are no grounds for believing that she can't do her job 
effectively.

Very few people get comprehensive training in the software they use in their 
day-to-day work (and I say that as an ex-IT trainer in a large government 
department). Most get enough training - formally or informally - to get by. 
Once they have found a way of completing a particular task, they are unlikely 
to take the time to look for other, more efficient, ways of doing it. In many 
cases, investing that time would pay off many times over, but the fact remains 
that it means taking time away from the stuff that they're being paid to do 
right now.

Even though my children's generation - today's young adults - have grown up 
with the web, most of them still find one way of doing something, and then 
stick to it, rather than exploring alternatives. 

In any event, there is little to be gained by designing websites based on what 
you think your users ought to know, if it doesn't match what they actually do 
know.

Back to the original question: should a link to a different website open in a 
new window or not?

If you force the new page to open in a new window (or tab), you are taking 
control of the user experience. Obviously, this will suit some of your users, 
but it will irritate those who know how to open a new window but don't want to, 
and confuse those who don't recognise what you've done. Jakob Neilsen has 
argued for more than a decade that opening new windows confuses the user and 
breaks the most commonly recognised browser feature: the back button. A 
SitePoint article making several of these points is here: 
http://www.sitepoint.com/beware-opening-links-new-window/


Elizabeth Spiegel
Web editing

0409 986 158
GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001
www.spiegelweb.com.au



-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Tom Ditmars
Sent: Friday, 30 December 2011 6:32 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

On 12/29/2011 01:02 PM, coder wrote:
> I had an awful job getting her to understand what [a browser was],
> but eventually she explained : "I use my e". This was subsequently
> clarified by the explanation that she meant the small blue thing at
> the bottom of the screen. Let me add that this lady sits in front of
> her PC, at work, using the internet 5 days a week, all day, and has
> done for 10 years that I know of.

That is the failure of either her employer for failing to train her
properly or herself for failing seeking the appropriate training to do
her job. Web developers should not and cannot be expected to cater to
users who "use the [Web] 5 days a week ... for 10 years" and refuse to
learn to use it efficiently.

I would dare to venture that the world has reached a point where knowing
about things like "tabs" or "right-clicking" should be expected. The
World Wide Web has existed for nearly 20 years.


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