[WSG] XOXO What Fo'?
Looking at this. http://developers.technorati.com/wiki/XOXO The examples are puzzling. ol class='xoxo' liSubject 1 ol lisubpoint a/li lisubpoint b/li /ol /li liSubject 2 ol compact=compact lisubpoint c/li lisubpoint d/li /ol /li liSubject 3 ol lisubpoint e/li /ol /li /ol As an example of XOXO. Don't we have something like this already? Serously, what is it? Outline markup? -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Top Ten Web Design Mistakes - yeah, right!
* Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005-10-04 11:25]: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: Somebody pointed out this article by our friend Jakob Nielsen to me: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/designmistakes.html Let's start with this little comment at the beginning: For this year's list of worst design mistakes, I decided to try something new: I asked readers of my newsletter to nominate the usability problems they found the most irritating. How useless is that?! People who subscribe to Jakob Nielsen's newsletter are *not* normal. They are people who show interest in Usability, people who have got an above average understanding of Website Structure and Web Standards. It's only too bad most web site designers are apparently not among them. We wouldn't actually want most of the web to be easy to use, would we? I'm a programmer. I like UI concepts, and I want my software to be usable, but I'm a programmer and very comfortable with vi. Which is why I like programming for the web. There is a large and vocal usability community setting down guidelines, sharing the results of their usability testing, having major spats about seemingly little issues like text size. Can a Visual Basic programmer go to a listserv and say, please give me feedback on my design? It's unusual to have a platform where design, usability, and systems have and ongoing dialog. I make it a point to listen. -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Questions about the new european parliament web site
* Matthew Cruickshank [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005-09-13 19:39]: Maybe it would be more educational if someone could describe how these tags might have been built. I'm assuming they are using a .net platform that has been horribly hacked. Maybe I shouldn't throw blame immediately at .net, but I have noticed similar things with them. Should the CMS have translated all of the xml stuff into an action or content? Is it just bad code? It's just bad code. They're almost certainly using Apache Cocoon to aggregate a bunch of XML formats together, but they haven't written their XSLT to strip namespaces or tags. This was the same problem that tvnz.co.nz faced when it launched their Apache Cocoon site. The problem they're facing is that they've got XML coming from all kinds of sources, Eg, they might have a content repository providing XML like content xmlns=c_repo section titleSome title/title paraSome content/para /section /content And they'll combine that with a couple of RSS feeds, some XHTML, and maybe some search engine results, and end up with a lot of XML namespaces and non-XHTML tags. This is no bad thing, provided they go to the effort of cleaning it up into XHTML. They could put another stage in their pipeline to filter the namespaces and such with some XSLT and using xsl:stylesheet exclude-result-prefixes= ... Cleaning the result up into XHTML as the final stage in the pipeline though is messy, and generally it's better to write wrappers around all the XML you're aggregating, convert this to XHTML, and then keep a simple sitemap that just aggregates these wrappers together. I'm following a process to transform the incoming feed into clean Atom 1.0, ant to JTidy the content into XHTML. Then I can take a standard set of transforms to convert into RSS 2.0, HTML, and whatever else down the road. Getting it clean coming in makes it much easier to keep it clean going out. -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html - http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Web Standards Crash Course
I'm suddenly interested in doing a lot of web programming. What path do I follow to see that I adhere to standards, while still supporting older browsers. All the talk of web standard HTML seems aloof. Is it as simple as checking with a validator every step of the way? I just don't know how to approach this, and I'm concerned about how to support older clients. Thank you. -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html - http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] [OT] Hurricane Katrina Web Services
Hey WSG. I'm asking for help. Please respond directly to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . FIRST Need to tell people about: http://www.familymessages.org/index.php There are many different such things, but we need to pick one, and this is the one I've been flogging, and it's growing again now that I'm telling people about it. (Fell asleep.) SECOND For the last 24 hours, I've been compiling a Wiki with information specific to Orleans Parish. http://thinknola.com/wiki/ For a while one page, became a clearing house for infomation on the evacuation of Xavier University. http://thinknola.com/wiki/index.php?title=Xavier Unfortunately, I had to go and fall alseep. If anyone has any ideas on how to recruit more data formatters or organizers, I think this could be a great service to people in New Orleans. Any insight, or help. I wish I could post something on my blog, but it's down to conserve bandwidth. -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html - http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Hot Topic: HTML design [was Reason for leaving]
* Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005-08-15 23:52]: Patrick Lauke wrote: Well folks, here's a crazy idea: let's start some good discussions on the principles of web standards then. We need a bit of a catalyst to get things started. Any hot topics anybody's got at the moment? With the recent departure of a member who found this forum boring I thought I'd open up a discussion on html design. First, let me explain what I mean by html design. One of the tenets of web standards design is the separation of content and presentation. The benefits of this are often explained in terms of easy site updates, the ability to change the visual design by simply updating the CSS, and improved accessibility. All good stuff, and increasingly (as we know), web sites are produced where content is on one file (html) and the presentation is in another (CSS) Another idea related to web standards is that of semantic markup, where markup is used to give the document structure - after all, html is a structural language - and the ultimate goal is to create a web that is usable by both machines (semantic web) and people. So, when I use the term html design I am talking about how a web page is marked up, not only in terms of separating presentation and content, but how the document appears without reference to the visual design. By and large html design is not something happening in practice. Documents are marked up, and sometimes even the content refers to, the visual design. Document elements (both the tag and 'information chunk' variety) are placed in the source order according to how easy they are to position in the current visual design. Arguably, we need better browsers that can make the distinction between document content, navigation, and metadata, but isn't it about time we markup document's for the content without refering to the visual design, and separate out the navigation and other stuff a bit more? I'll bite. I'm going to posit a similar question on XML-DEV. I'm working on my own blogging software. While I finish my editor interface, I'm typing out the XML by hand, making up a document format as I go along. Existing formats, like DocBook struck me as overkill, and I wanted something I copy type. For the most part, there's a one to one mapping between my markup and HTML, with one or two important distinctions. An example of this is the quote. When I quote someone on my blog I need more than formatting. I need to give credit and link. Rather than: blockquote p...virtue has never been as respectable as money./p /blockquote Thus: quote credit=Mark Twain title=Innocents Abroad permalink=http://www.twainquotes.com/Virtue.html; text...virtue has never been as respectable as money./text /quote A quote is rendered in my blog as so: http://engrm.com/blogometer/2005/08/05/link-positive.html Quoting is important in blogging, as you'll note in my blog posting, the person I quoted returned to comment. It's part of the social aspect of social networking. In my blogging interface, a quote editor is going to be a special widget. For blogging quoting and linking are currency. -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html - http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] RE: Hot Topic: HTML design
* Paul Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005-08-16 00:12]: Great topic! I had some experience using xml / xslt earlier this year. I was fiddling with w3schools xslt tutorial which uses client-side xslt transformation and I finally saw what all the xml fuss was about. The content could be marked up meaningfully (according to the actual data) then xslt could lay out the content and css could style it. It was a real 'wow' moment as the xml penny finally dropped - a total separation of content and presentation, with no server-side shenanigans needed to convert the xml content. As soon as there is consistent browser support for client side xslt, we'll be able to deliver pure xml to the client and have it apply style and layout as the / browser chooses. True accessibility and universality. The web equivalent of 'Zen' ;) There are plenty of places to put XSLT. It can be on the browser, or it can be automated. You can use XSLT to cull XML documents for links, for example. Or you can separate your presentation on the server side, based on browser detection. Which is why I'm interested in creating a better abstraction of the structure of blog and wiki entries. With XML pipelines, I can produce XHTML, RSS, text, PDF, or statitical views, like links only, tables of contents, etc. There are plenty of applications for XSLT, prior to it's universal availability on the client side. In my experience it's not the content that's the problem - it's the outlying structure (header, footer, nav, branding) that gets in the way of true 'semanticity' (look Ma - I done made me up a new word!). If we had a way (no, not frames) to semantically separate the nav / branding fluff from the actual core content we would be set. Here's an issue that I have a hard time getting away from... I've cooked up an abstraction like so: page titleAlan's Blogometer/title gutter section link href=rss.2.0.xmlSyndicate (XML)/link link href=http://www.technorati.com/profile/agutier;Technorati Profile/link link href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]/link /section /gutter document header titleAlan's Blogometer - Recent/title /header content deck card header titleWhat I Had For Lunch/title text2005/08/15 12:31:30/text /header content textI had a cheese sandwich. Yummy!/text /content footer link href=2005/08/15/what-i-had-for-lunch.htmlpermalink/link link href=2005/08/15/what-i-had-for-lunch.comment.cgicomment/link /footer /card /deck /content /document /page Quite abstract. No style information, merely conceptual. This isn't the markup I used to write my blog either, that's far more compact. The problem I face with this is that one generally cares about the relative position of gutter/ content. On most web pages, it's important to have navigation at a certian visibility level. A gutter is a content area, not a navigation area, I've decided. There you'll put recent entry links, Blog Ads or Ads by Google, your blog roll, your del.icio.us links, etc. But the format above is still another abstraction away from a blog entry which looks like so: blog entry anchor=what-i-had-for-lunch date=2005-08-15T12:31:30 titleWhat I Had For Lunch/title textI had a cheese sandwich. Yummy!/text /entry /blog I transform blog.xml - document.xml - blogometer/index.html I'm able to reuse XSLT along the way. Then of course, I'm here to learn more about XML/XHTML/CSS so that my final blogometer/index.html can be standards compliant, and I can have even more control over presentation. Brain dump. Toughts? -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html - http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Hot Topic: HTML design [was Reason for leaving]
* Jason Foss [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005-08-16 03:36]: Being a bit of an XML newbie, what's the difference between quote credit=Mark Twain title=Innocents Abroad permalink=http://www.twainquotes.com/Virtue.html; text...virtue has never been as respectable as money./text /quote and quote creditMark Twain/credit titleInnocents Abroad/title permalinkhttp://www.twainquotes.com/Virtue.html/permalink text...virtue has never been as respectable as money./text /quote aside from some extra typing, I suppose? In my case, it was a matter of avoiding extra typeing, since I'm typing out those elements in the raw blog XML which I edit by hand for now. That's all. Not a good reason. Or maybe, a good enough reason for now. If I were designing a schema for a quote, I'd probably follow your design, with one caveat. quote creditMark Twain/credit titleInnocents Abroad/title permalinkhttp://www.twainquotes.com/Virtue.html/permalink content text...virtue has never been as respectable as money./text /content /quote Since text is really a block of text, and might better be called para, except that sometimes it's not a paragraph. -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html - http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Forcing Display of Block
Very simply: div pHello./p p/p /div Is there any way to have the second p appear without inserting a non-breaking space? Curious. -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html - http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Forcing Display of Block
* Bert Doorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005-08-15 10:18]: G'day Very simply: div pHello./p p/p /div Is there any way to have the second p appear without inserting a non-breaking space? Question: What's the (semantic or otherwise) meaning of the empty paragraph? If it's only there to add extra white-space, why not add padding-bottom:1em (or whatever you need) to the div? If it's there for another reason, you could try giving it a height (through CSS) It's a JavaScript/W3C DOM hack. I'm trying to fashion an edit control out of W3C DOM. I need to keep it from collapsing if the user removes all the text. It makes little sense otherwise, so I'm not surpised it's not readily supported. I'll probably use the hight as you mentioned. Thank you. -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html - http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Reason for leaving
* Brian Grimmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005-08-11 22:32]: This forum has unfortunately degraded from a useful resource in regards to properly writing code for use by those with disabilities to just another HTML help group... If you need help with tables, CSS, Divs or IE Hacks, there are a million and one such sites dedicated to just that - no need for another that was above the rest by be specific to Web Standards. Thanks for the good times and good luck in the future. That's a pity. I've been following this listserv for a while, and I've learned a lot about web standards, how to do things the right way. I thought I'd found a valuable resource. Where are these other groups then? -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html - http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
