Re: [WSG] invalid xhtml

[RC Pierce]

Then there is the situation of low-cost shared hosting. Perhaps you folks can help 
clear up this
question:

Our community sites reside on telus shared-hosting (apache servers) and while I try to 
'follow' the
excellent advice I find here on the list and elsewhere, we're not getting the results 
we would
expect.

We have no control over the http headers. Even though I've mounted XHMTL 1. 0 Strict 
with the MIME
type application/xhtml+xml, Mozilla still shows it as text/html. Should I revert back 
to text/html,
since this would appear to be what is being served out, beyond our control?

Roy

- Original Message - 
From: "Andrew Sione Taumoefolau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 8:02 AM
Subject: RE: [WSG] invalid xhtml


Hi Patrick,

> I beg to differ on this hair-splitting point:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/NOTE-xhtml-media-types-20020801/#text-html
>
> "[XHTML1] defines a profile of use of XHTML which is compatible with HTML
> 4.01 and which may also be labeled as text/html"

I'm not sure that we differ on this point. The W3C dictates that we MAY
(1) serve XHTML1 as HTML. Good sense(2) argues that we SHOULD serve
XHTML as application/xhtml+xml. Doing otherwise is disingenuous(3) and
could introduce subtle bugs, and lord knows we have enough subtle bugs
to work around as is.

Cheers,

Andrew Taumoefolau

1. Apologies for busting out the RFC language.
2. http://www.hixie.ch/advocacy/xhtml
3. We ought to be proud that we're serving xml! :)

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Re: [WSG] Site Check / Improvements

[RC Pierce]

Sarah,

Your site gets my vote: Definitely a very nice site. You will let us know when you go 
live with it,
eh?

Roy


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Re: [WSG] Site check please

[RC Pierce]

"" Hmmm... I fixed the above simply by re-ordering the css...

Some days CSS just gets me ""

There might be something in that, you know. I'm a novice, myself, and have so much to 
learn,
especially when it comes to the in's and out's of CSS.

Opera seems to be the most dependent on order, or so I thought at first, since 
re-ordering the
styles usually had a good effect. That was until I discovered something really odd. 
Just placing a
'dummy rule' at the top of the style sheet and putting my body styles near the bottom 
cured a whole
heap of problems I was having. Well, this and a couple of 'bug compensators' for IE. 
So much to
learn and so little time...

Sorry I can't offer anything else, but the 'big guns' here on the list have pretty 
much got you
covered. Site looks great from here (IE5.5/6, FF0.8, Opera7.23/WinXP).

Roy


- Original Message - 
From: "Ian Fenn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 4:11 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Site check please



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Re: [WSG] Rant about Bobby

[RC Pierce]

Hello,

Just as there are ways to create hackfree markup and css, there are ways to satisfy 
Bobby. Usually
by the time one has done it, one has come up with a better page. Using Bobby has 
probably been the
one thing that helped me to learn to appreciate the value of well structured markup. I 
learned more
about standards and accessibility there than I can ever expect to here.

In fact, I would have to say that I much prefer Bobby, with its tight-lipped, pitiless 
scrutiny. At
least one can expect some kind of a clue as to which direction to turn. Whatsmore, if 
one disagrees
with Bobby, one may write to Watchfire and raise one's objections. The folks there 
actually DO
reply. I know this from experience. What may one come to expect from the WSG list?
http://www.fuckinggoogleit.com. Real cute.

Cheers,

Roy



Nancy Johnson wrote:

Dear Group,



I've come to use Bobby for one reason and that is insuring that all
images have alt tags. I manage a website or at least try to where too
many people have the ability to add content and unfortunately other
items to our website.



In my opinion the comments pages that come up are too cumbersome and
many comments do not address issues on my page but possible issues or
they are incorrect.  It has also called me on a linking issue where one
word out of three was the same to describe two different links and told
me I shouldn't use the same description to describe different links.



Nancy Johnson


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[WSG] Added <.noscript> element is breaking our page

[RC Pierce]

Good Day, List,

In my effort to further comply with guidelines, I have inserted a noscript element in 
the page:

http://www.wdfcs.ca/contact.htm

Default styles are here (I've got it right, this time):

http://www.wdfcs.ca/fcss/default.css

Page specific styles are here:

http://www.wdfcs.ca/fcss/contact.css

Everything is validated.

Rendering is as one would expect (scripting on/off) in Op7.23, NS7.1 & FF0.8 (Win XP & 
98SE), but to
no surprise, IE Win XP & 98 (5.01/5.5/6.0 SP1) is breaking.

It is most evident when the page is re-sized or scrolled. A giant gap is appearing 
through which can
be seen the background pattern of the wrapper.

Furthermore, it is even more evident when all font colors, styles and sizes are 
ignored (internet
tools->accessibiltiy).

The <.h2> element is being forced below the line of the last button on the nav menu 
(in line with).
To witness this effect further, (in ignore mode) hover on the menu item "Character 
Education." The
added left-margin (used for effect) causes to the text to overflow its container and 
wrap to the
next line. This in turn pushes everything on the right, below and including the <.h2>, 
downward.

That's with scripting turned on. Now when one turns scripting off, the entire contact 
information
box drops below the nav line at certain widths, and returns to its correct postion at 
others. Rather
disconcerting, to be sure.

I've tried clearing the float on the nav, to no avail. There are a couple of <.br 
class="clear />
(in default.css) in the content area, as well. The one immediately preceeding the 
<.h2> element is
effective in eliminating the "venetian blind effect" that was occuring when the page 
is scrolled up
and down. (The <.h2> and its borders will come and go while scrolling).

To further complicate this problem, the <.h1> element pops in and out without apparent 
reason when
the page is refreshed at certain widths.

I can live with the gap below the contact information box, but the disappearing act 
above and below
it is rather unnerving.

May I request the assistance of the list with this problem, please? No doubt, the cure 
is right
under my nose, but it's just not readily apparent through the fog of my own 
frustration.

Thank you in advance,

Roy


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Re: [WSG] getting ride of table layout

[RC Pierce]

One question, though: When this table is linearized will it still make sense?

If I have gathered correctly what Russ and others said in the linearization thread, 
would it make
more sense to have the columnar data in the rows, and vice-versa? That way, when the 
data is
linearized, it will flow as:

  => Disk Space => Bandwidth => &c.; =>
Bronze => 400 MB => 7 GB => &c.; =>
Silver => &c.; =>
Gold => &c.; =>
Platinum => &c.;

Please feel free to debunk this interpretation--I am here to learn, after all.

Roy

- Original Message - 
From: "Amit Karmakar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 5:59 AM
Subject: RE: [WSG] getting ride of table layout


That's a good one Russ, very handy, helps build a mental picture too!
Thanks.

Regards,
Amit Karmakar
www.karmakars.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Russ Weakley - Maxdesign
Sent: Monday, 7 June 2004 8:08 PM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: Re: [WSG] getting ride of table layout


This is a perfect example of tabular data - it is semantically correct
inside a table. Instead of thinking of ways to convert it into divs, you
should be working on implementing accessibility features: id, headers
for, summary, caption, etc.

A rough example if id's and headers in action is here:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/accessible/

Russ



> Greetings
> I'm trying to replace this table
> http://www.easyhttp.com/temp/plans.html
> with a table-less layout using only CSS divs no tables
> any idea how to do it ?

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[WSG] Non-linking printable text in Navigation Lists

[RC Pierce]

Is there a trick that I haven't learned yet with regard to WAI Recommendation 10.5; to 
wit:

10.5 Until user agents (including assistive technologies) render adjacent links 
distinctly, include
non-link, printable characters (surrounded by spaces) between adjacent links. 
[Priority 3]

The reason I ask, is that I have yet to see anything of the sort in the navigation 
lists of the many
sites that have been posted to the list, thus far.

What method of 'you' using in 'your' nav lists to comply with this recommendation?

The technique that I have employed (in various forms) is to create a container for the 
printable
character (and spaces) and then style it, display:none;.

eg.


#navlist li em {
display:none;
}




link somewhere | 



Any comments?

Roy


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Re: [WSG] Linearizing Tables - Is there a standard?

[RC Pierce]

Thanks for that, Vlad. I'm still a long way off being able to make heads or tails of 
the xsl.  I can
follow what is going on, though.

Perhaps a little explanation would help me better understand what to expect from 
screenreader.xsl
(private mail is okay, since this may be not be considered a list topic).

Roy


- Original Message - 
From: "Vlad Alexander (XStandard)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Linearizing Tables - Is there a standard?


Hi Roy,

Think of each cell as a  tag. We use XSLT to make tables linear within XStandard. 
Here is the
link to download the XSLT:
http://xstandard.com/download/screenreader.xsl

Regards,
-Vlad
XStandard Development Team
http://xstandard.com


- Original Message - 
From: "RC Pierce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 7:26 PM
Subject: [WSG] Linearizing Tables - Is there a standard?


> Is there a 'standard' way for linearizing tables? Does one move
> across, then down row by row, or down then across column by column?
>
> (Okay, I know this was asked in another thread, but noone bit, so I'm posting it as 
> a new topic.)
>
> Roy
>
>
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>

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Re: [WSG] Which editors do you guys recommend?

[RC Pierce]

Missing from the list is Context Programmers Editor.

http://www.fixedsys.com/context/

With my as yet limited skill set, I still treat it pretty much like Notepad, but it 
has much, much
more to it than just text editing. Context provides syntax highlighting for a great 
many programming
and publishing languages, including html, xml and css (some plug-ins required).

One of the many features that I really like (since I work on a page by page basis :-) 
is global
find/replace. Multiple files can be opened at once, and changes can be effected on 
every open file
in the editor in one go. The Save All/Close All feature is rather handy, too, and the 
program
remembers your last save.

If a file changes, or is deleted/renamed (through some other means) while it is open 
in editor,
Context asks if you wish to reload it.

So far I have been running it (for past six months, or so) in both Win 98 SE and XP 
without any
problems. There are countless optional settings, project groups and recent 
files/projects. While I
may not be familiar with any of the editors mentioned so far, I'd guess that it 
compares with many
of them.

Still, I do all my creation work in Notepad, but for all large-scale changes I turn to 
Context.
While I may not do much justice in my rather sketchy description, I am of the opinion 
that this free
editor is well worth taking a good look at.

Roy


- Original Message - 
From: "afdesign" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 3:01 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Which editors do you guys recommend?


Recently Paul Scrivens (Whitespace) conducted a "Non-scientific poll on
HTML/CSS Editors" which attracted over 120 responses and so probably
constitutes one of the more compresnhensive discussions on this topic:
http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/our_thoughts/nonscientific_poll_htmlcss_editors.php

Steve Pilgrim of Rodent Regatta then posted a list of links to all the
Editors mentioned in Scriv's poll and also ranked them based on the
number of times they were mentioned in the comments:
http://www.rodentregatta.com/archives/005771.php#005771

cheers
dez
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Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[RC Pierce]

Hi Nick,

The post is under this topic, from Saturday morning:

Bert Doorn

Saturday, June 05, 2004 4:51 AM

RE: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

The page on Bert's site where the layout is used:

http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/clients/index.html

Cheers,

Roy



- Original Message - 
From: "Nick Gleitzman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions


Roy - ummm,  did I miss a post? Can you point me to 'Bert's layout'?

Thanks
Nick
___
Omnivision. Websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/

On Sunday, June 6, 2004, at 01:59  AM, RC Pierce wrote:

> Bert's thumbnail layout is really quite straight forward. Wish I'd o'
> thought of using inline
> paragraphs as containers when I was having trouble with a thumbnail
> page, myself. The problem of
> attaching caption to image, getting it to center with the thumbnail is
> completely overcome using
> that simple technique. Beats <.td><.img><.br /><.a>caption<./a><./td>
> (ignore dots) all to heck when
> it comes to elasticity and fluidity. Nice one, Bert.

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[WSG] Linearizing Tables - Is there a standard?

[RC Pierce]

Is there a 'standard' way for linearizing tables? Does one move
across, then down row by row, or down then across column by column?

(Okay, I know this was asked in another thread, but noone bit, so I'm posting it as a 
new topic.)

Roy


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Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[RC Pierce]

"I hope you're not suggesting going back to nested tables are you?"

Not on your life. Tableless, free-flowing, css driven layout is really the ticket, to 
be sure. I
much prefer the ease with which a page can be constructed and styled later. Add to 
this that once a
working template is created, one never has to consider presentation again. Adding new 
content to a
site is so much easier when all one needs to do is insert it into a 'proven' 
construct. Not to
mention, restyling a site doesn't involve 're-tooling' it. This could never be done 
using tables.

Bert's thumbnail layout is really quite straight forward. Wish I'd o' thought of using 
inline
paragraphs as containers when I was having trouble with a thumbnail page, myself. The 
problem of
attaching caption to image, getting it to center with the thumbnail is completely 
overcome using
that simple technique. Beats <.td><.img><.br /><.a>caption<./a><./td> (ignore dots) 
all to heck when
it comes to elasticity and fluidity. Nice one, Bert.

On the other hand, if a page is not elastic (shudder) then a table works just fine, at 
least this
one does, anyway. It is still very linear.

Now this brings up the question: Is there a 'standard' way for linearizing tables? 
Does one move
across, then down row by row, or down then across column by column?

Roy


- Original Message - 
From: "7 sinz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 3:56 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions



yes use tables, but use them wiely, use them as they were intended for (
tabular data )
I hope you're not suggesting going back to nested tables are you?

For me CSS holds to many advantages; and i feel it is just the future ( for
me ne ways )to effectivley render beautiful sematic webpages.

-peace

>From: "RC Pierce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
>Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 03:26:17 -0600
>
>They haven't deprecated the table tag, yet, have they? Maybe I'm just a
>beginner, but I can easily
>follow the difficulty folks are having with 'pure css.' It was fun for me
>until I saw that a
>hackless site was a near impossibility, even if it's just the 3-pixel jog
>hack (which doesn't work
>for lists).
>
>think the jury is going to be out for a long time on this one. There really
>is no 'hack free' way
>to deal with css and cross browser support. Sure there have been plenty of
>'elegant' uses of
>tableless markup, but when it takes a simple process and turns it into a
>morass of problems and
>surprises, it really does cross the line.
>
>Until the 'table police' show up and put on the cuffs, the best thing is do
>what is expedient, and
>what is effective and dependable. Whether for layout or tabular data, the
>use of tables, and their
>predictable results should not be discounted or frowned upon--especially if
>the table makes sense
>when linearized.
>
>What you are trying to do 'fits the bill' for a legitimate table. Until CSS
>reaches the point where
>proper centering, width and height is possible across all browsers and all
>platforms without hacks
>and kludges, hybrid designs should be expected, and not discouraged. As
>long as tables are still a
>part of html, I say use them.
>
>Roy
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Rick Faaberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 10:30 PM
>Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
>
>
>On 6/4/04 9:10 PM "Nick Gleitzman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:
>
> > A parting thought: does a series of thumbnail/caption pairs actually
>qualify
> > as tabular data - thus leaving me feeling better about giving up and
>using a
> > table to lay the bloody thing out anyway?
>
>That was my first thought when I began to read about your angst.
>
>It's tabular data - deal with that way. Get it over with.
>
>I'm no authority.
>
>Rick Faaberg
>
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>
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Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[RC Pierce]

They haven't deprecated the table tag, yet, have they? Maybe I'm just a beginner, but 
I can easily
follow the difficulty folks are having with 'pure css.' It was fun for me until I saw 
that a
hackless site was a near impossibility, even if it's just the 3-pixel jog hack (which 
doesn't work
for lists).

I think the jury is going to be out for a long time on this one. There really is no 
'hack free' way
to deal with css and cross browser support. Sure there have been plenty of 'elegant' 
uses of
tableless markup, but when it takes a simple process and turns it into a morass of 
problems and
surprises, it really does cross the line.

Until the 'table police' show up and put on the cuffs, the best thing is do what is 
expedient, and
what is effective and dependable. Whether for layout or tabular data, the use of 
tables, and their
predictable results should not be discounted or frowned upon--especially if the table 
makes sense
when linearized.

What you are trying to do 'fits the bill' for a legitimate table. Until CSS reaches 
the point where
proper centering, width and height is possible across all browsers and all platforms 
without hacks
and kludges, hybrid designs should be expected, and not discouraged. As long as tables 
are still a
part of html, I say use them.

Roy


- Original Message - 
From: "Rick Faaberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions


On 6/4/04 9:10 PM "Nick Gleitzman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:

> A parting thought: does a series of thumbnail/caption pairs actually qualify
> as tabular data - thus leaving me feeling better about giving up and using a
> table to lay the bloody thing out anyway?

That was my first thought when I began to read about your angst.

It's tabular data - deal with that way. Get it over with.

I'm no authority.

Rick Faaberg

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Re: [WSG] CSS Disaster

[RC Pierce]

Just a thought:

Are you writing,

@import url('%styles.css%')

or,

@import url('%styles.css%');

???

The semi-colon is absolutely essential.

Roy

- Original Message - 
From: "Sean M. Hall AKA Dante" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 7:53 PM
Subject: [WSG] CSS Disaster


"Dad, I'm not saying I wrecked the CSS.but I'm gonna need a new stylesheet".

This is how I feel right now. For my new History Website redesign, I worked hard on 
creating a valid
XHTML 1.0 Transitional structure consisting of semantic, organized markup. I validated 
tha markup
and the CSS (which didn't validate cuz I use -moz-box-sizing). I worked hard, and even 
added a
DOM-driven behaviour layer.

Opera 7.23 (IMHO, the best browser ever) renders it beautifully, as I expected. Opera 
7.23 rewards
me for my hard work, which is why I love it.

How does IE repay me? By not loading the bloody stylesheet at all (it does load the 
external .js
file though). Period. Nein.

At first I though it was this:
@import url('screenstyles.css') screen;
I use single quotes so IE5/Mac won't see the stylesheet. But I switched to double 
quotes and still
no luck. Removed the screen; part. Nein. not yet. Removed the conditional comments for 
IE in the
head section: no, no, nein.

Almost all of my visitors use IE, and I have less than two weeks to solve the problem.

CSS is an excellent car, but IE is a broken muddy pothole-filled road.

Anyone know any bugs that prevent IE from loading a stylesheet?


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Re: [WSG] Selector naming conventions

[RC Pierce]

That's the one good thing about beginning anything from scratch: no conventions.

You're left to your own devices until something that makes sense begins to take root.

Well... This is all fine and good until someone on the other side of the planet reads 
your code and
finds a plethora of undefinable jargon strewn throughout the site.

Fortunately, for some, we soon realize that 'our' methods may not bear any meaning to 
the next
person, and begin to adopt some of the naming conventions used by other authors (by 
now we would
have been quite well versed at "view source"ing other folks pages, so we're bound to 
have "lifted"
an idea or two).

Which brings us to the Malarkey article, "What's In a Name?" by Andy Clarke (see link 
below). Here
we see the obvious advantages to using an object view when naming principle components 
in our page.
Conspicuous in its absence, is any discussion on page specific content. Do we stick 
this matter with
generic names?

I've been around the block just once, so far, and have seen my thinking come full 
circle on this
question. At first I thought file size and bandwidth were most important on the list of
considerations. But we can put our pages on a diet that may cost them their long term 
health if we
cut too deep. A couple hundred bytes either way isn't going to make that great a 
difference.

Along comes the discussion of nested divs, and div bloat. Oh... like mumps and 
measles, I've had
those illnesses, too. Thanks to open discussions, like this list, I learned the errors 
of my ways
and found that  and  works just fine for 
anchoring, and naming
my page sections. As long as I'm not floating anything, or creating a separately 
styled page
element, a div is seldom required.

Getting rather wordy, now... mustmoveon... Names need meaning. The way I see 
it, there is no
place for convention when it comes to semantically naming our elements. They should be 
named on the
basis of the content they enclose. Whether they are individually styled or not, would 
be of no
concern. Their parent container is styled, that's all that matters. Child objects can 
be styled by
their node within the container.

This approach certainly makes it easy to semantically express and style child 's 
and other
inline elements within our content.

There will be some 'code bloat', albeit; however, the next site re-design will be much 
easier for
it.

Roy


afdesign wrote:


Trevor

For starters see this post and resulting discussion from Andy Clarke
http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/whats_in_a_name.html

dez

Trevor Finch wrote:
Is there a naming convention for CSS Selectors ? (as in other languages)
I mean something like...
#position-menu, #position-moreinfo, #position-content  etc for selectors
that are mainly for 'positioning'

.style-menu, .style-content  etc for selectors that are mainly for 'styling'

Could then have something like...



 

Is there a generic 'name' for Selectors that are used for showing
menus/navigation ?

regards...



Trevor Finch
Research Services New England
8/16 Nicholson Street
Balmain, NSW 2041
Australia
T: +61 (2) 9810 3563
F: +61 (2) 9810 3323
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.rsne.com.au
--


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Re: [WSG] off topic reply to 'A New Community Based Web Site for Review'

[RC Pierce]

Hi Tim,

Accessibility is the issue, right? I think authors need to take a stand, and let their 
visitors know
that they are at least making an effort to reach their audience, through whichever 
technology that
may have employed. To the average visitor, it is simple enough to ignore the link, 
just as it is
simple to ignore the Skip Navigation link. I placed it first since it will be the 
first thing a
screen reader bumps into. Persons using AT may appreciate this segue right off the 
bat, rather than
searching for it.

It would seem that a great many users access the web through the SERPs, rather than 
typing the
complete url. This introduced another consideration to the whole accessibility 
question, namely,
will the site come up in the first fifty results?

While I may be out in left field with this thought, I had the notion that Google and 
others actually
'look' for the accessibility statement, just as they look for the Privacy Policy and 
Site Map. With
this in mind, I felt the statement would actually improve accessibility, albeit in 
this roundabout
manner.

Even though a site has no commercial aim, it is still, nonetheless mounted with the 
purpose of
getting a message out, and providing timely information.

""Don't like the logo much though...""

Cannot take credit for the graphic. I got that in the mail, and had to reduce it to 
66% for a good
fit. You work with what you have, and hope to make the most of it. Locally, the group 
is known as
FCS. Most folks don't think about the Wainwright and District part in the full name. I 
believe this
is where the creator got the idea, and basically where I got my color scheme. My 
entire palette is
derived from that one image, including the two mattes in the background effect.

I would like to have created my own graphics, but alas, graphic design is not my 
forte, any more
than site design. My only tools are Notepad and Paint, and a fixation on 'parallel and
perpendicular' layout. Must stem from my cabinetmaking trade.

If I ever decide to make a living with web development, I will certainly partner with 
someone who's
background is in graphics (perhaps someone much younger than myself, with 'modern' 
ideas). When all
the information is removed, the web is still chaulk full of visual content. I would be 
the last
person to ever downplay the importance of graphical appeal. One must never discount 
the valuable
role played by the many gifted artists who have made the web 'a nice place to visit.'

Someone once said, "There may be folks who are great graphics designers, and folks who 
are great
programmers, and folks who are great html coders... but there are very few who can 
honestly boast of
being all three."

For my own part, I am content to learn the bare-bones of proper structural design and 
CSS, and leave
the 'enrichment' to someone with skills in the presentation arts. This is what I love 
most about
Standards Based web development--we can not only separate content from presentation, 
we can also
delineate the various components. I see myself as the 'cribber and framer' who hands a 
structure
over to the folks who will put the skin on the outside, and the finish to the inside. 
The whole
concept lends itself to teamwork much better than table based layout. Now all I need 
is a team. :-)

This was what I had in mind when building this site, and the couple others I have on 
the web.

I think it was Henry Ford who said, "Don't try to be the expert--find the expert, and 
pay what the
expert is worth." This could be summed up simply: delegate or stagnate.

Cheers,

Roy

- Original Message - 
From: "Hill, Tim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 1:51 AM
Subject: [WSG] off topic reply to 'A New Community Based Web Site for Review'


Hi Roy,
great idea with the accessibility links up the top, they fit in quite
well with the whole design. The accessibility statement is great, do you
think sites should all incorporate something like this?

Don't like the logo much though, not sure about the drop shadows, and
the white spot glow on the yellow oval. I think a cleaner font would
have conveyed more meaning. I'm not sure how this logo relates to
company.

Thanks,


Tim Hill
Computer Associates
Graphic Artist
tel: +612 9937 0792
fax: +612 9937 0546
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 







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Re: [WSG] A New Community Based Web Site for Review

[RC Pierce]

D;oh! Here are the correct links to the style sheets:

http://www.wdfcs.ca/fcss/default.css

http://www.wdfcs.ca/fcss/datab.css

http://www.wedfcs.ca/fcss/feetab.css

Sorry, folks.

Roy

- Original Message - 
From: "RC Pierce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 6:19 PM
Subject: [WSG] A New Community Based Web Site for Review


Well, I suppose it's about time I outed myself... Having spent half the winter 
creating this site,
the owner is ready to officially unveil it in the coming weeks.: It had its unofficial 
launch on
April 2nd, this year.

I chose the Standards Based method for two reasons (apart from the obvious: 
accessibility):

1. Forward looking: I like to think that in more capable hands than mine, the site can 
be easily
shaped in the future.
2. Simpler: Since the folks who will be looking after it have no web development 
experience, I
wanted markup that could be easily understood and content that is readily accessible. 
Hopefully this
will go a long way toward preventing mistakes.

The home page is below:

http://www.wdfcs.ca/index.htm

The stylesheet can be found at,

 http://www.wdfcs.ca/index.htm/fcss/default.css

There is one validation warning in the stylesheet for which I have no explanation; to 
wit:

Line 0 : font-family ... a generic font should be given as a last resort.

To avoid using fonts that may or may not exist on the visitor's computer, I opted to 
use only the
generic serif and sans-serif fonts in most cases. Is there a problem with this 
approach?

Also, the topmost rule was added to prevent Opera from breaking. I've tried to arrange 
the cascade
to please that browser, since it is the pickiest about that sort of thing. I spent 
hours rearranging
the sheet, and found that putting a dummy rule at the top cured a lot of the problem. 
Someday I'll
be able to figure out why.

It's a relatively small site, about 22 pages. For a framework, I adopted Russ's 
two-column layout
(Thanks Russ!), and 'borrowed' the technique for the navigation from Eric Meyer. 
Hopefully, I have
done enough development work on these ideas to render the result 'loosely derivative.'

The site is very elastic, with marginal breakage to the masthead in the small window 
of Opera. As
the image is absolutely positioned, and not floated, the textual content has nowhere 
to go but down,
and cannot slip below the image.

The audience is very likely not of the internet set, being primarily seniors, so there 
is nothing of
eye candy, and virtually no images. Our area comprises of mostly dial-up users so 
bandwidth was a
serious concern.

I've made every effort to ensure that the site meets with all three Priority levels in 
the WAI
guidelines, and every page is validated XHTML 1.0 Strict..

The site uses one table for layout on the Contact Us page. I had floats but was 
running into
problems with them so reverted to a table. The page is still Bobby rated AAA. The 
stylesheet for
this table is at,

http://www.wdfcs.ca/index.htm/fcss/datab.css

There is one other data table, which uses the following stylesheet:

http://www.wdfcs.ca/index.htm/fcss/feetab.css

The navigation in the main menu has hidden pipes to comply with Priority 3 guidelines 
which
stuipulate that adjacent links must be separated by a non-whitespace character 
surrounded by
whitespace. Since I don't use 's, and they are inline, I chose that element as my 
hidden
container. Previously I was using 's, and later I used 's, but the menu 
printed vertically
when styles were removed. Now it prints horizontally.

The markup is expanded to make maintenance and revision simpler for the non-html 
familiar staff who
will be looking after the site (once they're trained).

There is one issue, though, which relates to the use of Javascript to publish e-mail 
addresses as
the page is loaded. I cannot figure out a way to include  
elements in a manner
that will validate. Is it an inline/block level issue?

As this is a secondary issue (for the most part) I have simply included information to 
explain that
e-mail addresses will not be visible if scripts are not supported (or turned off) in 
the user's
browser. If there is a better way to do this, I'm listening.

The site is mounted on Telus's Shared Hosting servers, so there is very little in the 
way of
Server-side that can be done; plus the fact that I'm a newbie, and know nothing of 
server-side
includes, anyway.

My test environment (Windows XP and Win98SE) includes IE 6/Win, Mozilla Firebird 0.7 
and  Firefox
0.8, Netscape 7.1 and Opera 7.23, all of which render the pages in like fashion, with 
only very
slight differences. I have had  to use a couple of hacks in the sytles, most notably 
to ensure that
the nav menu renders the same width in Opera/NS/FF as it does in IE6/Win, and to 
prevent the 3 pixel
jump to the left that occurs when t

[WSG] A New Community Based Web Site for Review

[RC Pierce]

Well, I suppose it's about time I outed myself... Having spent half the winter 
creating this site,
the owner is ready to officially unveil it in the coming weeks.: It had its unofficial 
launch on
April 2nd, this year.

I chose the Standards Based method for two reasons (apart from the obvious: 
accessibility):

1. Forward looking: I like to think that in more capable hands than mine, the site can 
be easily
shaped in the future.
2. Simpler: Since the folks who will be looking after it have no web development 
experience, I
wanted markup that could be easily understood and content that is readily accessible. 
Hopefully this
will go a long way toward preventing mistakes.

The home page is below:

http://www.wdfcs.ca/index.htm

The stylesheet can be found at,

 http://www.wdfcs.ca/index.htm/fcss/default.css

There is one validation warning in the stylesheet for which I have no explanation; to 
wit:

Line 0 : font-family ... a generic font should be given as a last resort.

To avoid using fonts that may or may not exist on the visitor's computer, I opted to 
use only the
generic serif and sans-serif fonts in most cases. Is there a problem with this 
approach?

Also, the topmost rule was added to prevent Opera from breaking. I've tried to arrange 
the cascade
to please that browser, since it is the pickiest about that sort of thing. I spent 
hours rearranging
the sheet, and found that putting a dummy rule at the top cured a lot of the problem. 
Someday I'll
be able to figure out why.

It's a relatively small site, about 22 pages. For a framework, I adopted Russ's 
two-column layout
(Thanks Russ!), and 'borrowed' the technique for the navigation from Eric Meyer. 
Hopefully, I have
done enough development work on these ideas to render the result 'loosely derivative.'

The site is very elastic, with marginal breakage to the masthead in the small window 
of Opera. As
the image is absolutely positioned, and not floated, the textual content has nowhere 
to go but down,
and cannot slip below the image.

The audience is very likely not of the internet set, being primarily seniors, so there 
is nothing of
eye candy, and virtually no images. Our area comprises of mostly dial-up users so 
bandwidth was a
serious concern.

I've made every effort to ensure that the site meets with all three Priority levels in 
the WAI
guidelines, and every page is validated XHTML 1.0 Strict..

The site uses one table for layout on the Contact Us page. I had floats but was 
running into
problems with them so reverted to a table. The page is still Bobby rated AAA. The 
stylesheet for
this table is at,

http://www.wdfcs.ca/index.htm/fcss/datab.css

There is one other data table, which uses the following stylesheet:

http://www.wdfcs.ca/index.htm/fcss/feetab.css

The navigation in the main menu has hidden pipes to comply with Priority 3 guidelines 
which
stuipulate that adjacent links must be separated by a non-whitespace character 
surrounded by
whitespace. Since I don't use 's, and they are inline, I chose that element as my 
hidden
container. Previously I was using 's, and later I used 's, but the menu 
printed vertically
when styles were removed. Now it prints horizontally.

The markup is expanded to make maintenance and revision simpler for the non-html 
familiar staff who
will be looking after the site (once they're trained).

There is one issue, though, which relates to the use of Javascript to publish e-mail 
addresses as
the page is loaded. I cannot figure out a way to include  
elements in a manner
that will validate. Is it an inline/block level issue?

As this is a secondary issue (for the most part) I have simply included information to 
explain that
e-mail addresses will not be visible if scripts are not supported (or turned off) in 
the user's
browser. If there is a better way to do this, I'm listening.

The site is mounted on Telus's Shared Hosting servers, so there is very little in the 
way of
Server-side that can be done; plus the fact that I'm a newbie, and know nothing of 
server-side
includes, anyway.

My test environment (Windows XP and Win98SE) includes IE 6/Win, Mozilla Firebird 0.7 
and  Firefox
0.8, Netscape 7.1 and Opera 7.23, all of which render the pages in like fashion, with 
only very
slight differences. I have had  to use a couple of hacks in the sytles, most notably 
to ensure that
the nav menu renders the same width in Opera/NS/FF as it does in IE6/Win, and to 
prevent the 3 pixel
jump to the left that occurs when the navbar content runs out. Too bad this hack won't 
work for
UL's, OL's or DL's, though. To combat the shift, I've had to invent content that will 
push the list
below the line of distortion.

I had to combat the 'chopped div' effect in the Contact page, so applied the Holly 
Hack to that. The
little disclaimer div would partially disappear as the page was scrolled up and down 
using the
scrollbar. The hack worked to put a stop to that.

A clearing div is used to preserve the margin around the mai

Re: [WSG] accessible to vision impaired

[RC Pierce]

Without going into the legallities of any one country, your site will be accessible to 
vision
impaired visitors if it is 'Lynx friendly.'

http://www.delorie.com/web/lynxview.html

The above site provides a Lynx Viewer. Plug in your URL and browse your site. If all 
your content is
there, you shouldn't have a problem. Just jump through the Bobby hoops and everything 
should be
fine.

Essentially, the Lynx Viewer produces the same displayed results as User Mode does in 
Opera, with
the exception of not displaying images or pictures.

The real test is the JAWS test, though, if you really want to be sure, but who can 
afford that
technology unless they need it themselves?

Roy

- Original Message - 
From: "Taco Fleur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Web Standards Group (E-mail)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 3:51 PM
Subject: [WSG]



Are there currently any laws in Australia that dictate a website should be accessible 
to vision
impaired people etc.?
If so, to what websites does it apply and has anyone taken any websites to court over 
not being
accessible?
What I could find so far only the following:
- http://www.sportslawnews.com/archive/Articles%202000/SportsBriefs904.htm

Are there any links to what standards certain websites need to apply?

I believe this has been asked before however a quick scan though my mailbox did not 
return anything.

Thanks


Register now for the 3rd National Conference on Tourism Futures, being held in 
Townsville, North
Queensland 4-6 August - www.tq.com.au/tfconf


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[WSG] 508 Awareness Link and Technology Standards Link

[RC Pierce]

~

508 Awareness Web Site

http://www.section508.gov/508Awareness/

The entire site can be downloaded as a pdf.  Useful, and informative.

~

Kicking around for a while.  New to me.  Useful and informative.

"Weaving a Secure Web around Education:
 A Guide to Technology Standards and Security"

(pdf 1,119 KB) http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2003/2003381.pdf

Description and download page:
 http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2003381

~


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